Bedtime Drama - Need Advice

[KristineinKS]

Several months ago we moved my eldest son into dd's bedroom because he was not getting along with his brothers and his counselor suggested it would be good for him to have his own room if possible. Since his own room wasn't possible, he was happy to share with his sister - they're very close & always do things together, while the twins tend to do things with each other. Let me back up by saying he was in counseling because he was having trouble getting along with his siblings & was demonstrating some very hateful behavior toward them. He's always been a very sensitive & high need child & is *still* resentful of the fact that he has siblings (though dd is mostly ok with him).

 

Anyway, that was fine for a few weeks but then dd began moving her covers into our room to sleep on the floor every night. In the past year she's gotten VERY picky about bedtime. All lights need to be off (to the point where she'll cover her computer mouse because the light "bothers" her) & it needs to be absolutely silent for her to sleep. She complained that the boys were always talking at bedtime, so my room was better & quiet. After she'd been sleeping on our floor a few nights, my eldest moved his covers into my room. This resulted in all kinds of drama with dd, but finally they adjusted & were doing fine until dh decided last weekend that they both needed to return to their own room! I should also mention that prior to getting re-married last year, it was pretty common to have all the kids camped out in my room, though it was most common with the eldest & youngest - the twins have always been more independent.

 

I should also mention that dd has been going through some changes lately - she's been VERY hormonal/emotional/sensitive & very clingy. She's put on some weight & is growing taller, but the boys have been teasing her relentlessly for being "fat" (which she is not!)...so she's pretty annoyed with the boys in general. Anyway, so I moved them both into their room yesterday & at bedtime, dd was sobbing about how she just wanted her own room, or to be able to sleep on the floor of my room. She did not want her brother in her room. After about an hour of this, I relented & moved her back into my room. However, until nearly 2 AM my eldest kept coming into my room begging to sleep in it (he even made me tea to soften me up, LOL). FINALLY he fell asleep in his own room, but only after an entire miserable night of drama & telling his sister how much he hated her & how spoiled she is. Today he's still very angry with me - telling me how I favor her & it's not fair. I tried to sit him down calmly & explain that his sister is going through a "phase" right now & doesn't want to share her room with boys anymore, etc. That didn't help and he won't even speak to her except to tell her how awful she is.

 

Now we do have an extra bedroom, however it's my office. At this point I'm willing to give up my precious office so that they each have their own room & we can have some peace. But strangely, my eldest is now telling me he doesn't want his own room (he'll be "lonely" but still dislikes the twins & doesn't want them) & I'm only doing this to appease dd & it's not fair. DD, on the other hand, keeps begging to be able to move her bed into our room & she'll be happy. She says she "needs" me to be able to sleep (she'll be 9 next week!). I don't know what to do anymore. Moving her bed into our room will hardly thrill dh (though he does have a soft spot for her, so may be he won't object), but it will really cause problems with my eldest! Any words of wisdom or advice?

[*********]

OH wow. How in the WORLD do you get any sleep at all? I'd never be able to put up with all that...

 

No advice here, I've never had any experience with anything even close to what you described.

 

But I hope you get it figured out; it stressed me out just reading it! :grouphug:

[Tammy]

If you converted your office to a bedroom....would your daughter and son have their own room?

[specialmama]

Ya, I'd be clearing our my office. I'd then chat with dd and see if maybe she wants the office bedroom? Maybe a change of room would be nice for her and she would like it more than her current room. Perhaps let them both pick out new wallpaper or decor and make the "new" rooms theirs. Your eldest likely feels leftout and unwanted (now his sister doesn't want to share a room with him), I think that's where his anger is coming from. Perhaps the twins could go in the office and he could get his old room back? In all honesty, you need to put your foot down and say no way to them sleeping in your room. You're (re-)married now and they are old enough to understand that your dh and you need your "cave".

[KristineinKS]

Yes, if I convert my office back to a bedroom, they'd each have their own room - however, it will not be an easy task since my office is full of bookshelves, a filing cabinet & a very large desk that we really don't have room elsewhere (and since I work from home, I need access to all of these things) -- I'd have to try 'n squeeze it all into our bedroom I guess. When we first bought the house my office was dd's bedroom, but she never ever used it & she's still saying she doesn't want it because she "needs" to be with me.

[Danestress]

It seems like your oldest son is crying for something and maybe experiencing the pain of feeling rejected.

 

I'm not sure how to solve that. Since you have a counselor, this would be on my life of things to discuss with all the children. But one idea that comes to mind is telling your oldest that since he's the oldest, he has the oldest kid privilege of an hour with Mom and Dad (or just Mom if he seems to want that) after the other children go to bed. Maybe if you got DD in her own quiet room (whichever room) and got the twins settled in, you could fill up some of your oldest son's need for love and attention - just some really good time together every night before he goes off to his *own* room for bed.

 

I wouldn't let children this age sleep in my room - that's just my preference and not the only right way to handle it, but I would personally insist my daughter respect that my DH is a husband and is my one and only roommate at this stage in life. She's not going to like it, but I wouldn't budge on that particular issue.

 

ETA: I also think that your daughter needs her own room. Maybe that could ease the problem of wanting to sleep with you - you could explain that you are going to make sure she has her own room because you totally respect her need for space and privacy, but that you also want her to respect YOUR and your DH's need for the same.

Edited March 23, 2009 by Danestress

[JFSinIL]

I would find another solution - your dd should not be having to share her room with an older brother.

[KidsHappen]

I am generally very flexible on sleeping arrangments. I have an air mattress on the floor in my room that is frequently used by the nine year old. Sometimes the nine year old is on the air mattress and the twelve year old on the bed. I have even had the 17 year old sleep with me recently and it was just two years ago that they all quit sleeping in my room on Christmas Eve. BUT my hubby is on the road five days a week and when he is home everyone else usually clears out and everyone does have their own space to go to to and get away from everyone else. Visitors are just that though, transitory not permanant.

 

It sounds to me like you need a more permanant solution as no one is getting any sleep like things are currently. I would make the office into another bedroom and relocate one of the two. And then put your foot down and send them to their own rooms at night. Even if they can't sleep they can stay quietly in their own rooms without wrecking havoc on the rest of the household. I would also address the 11 year old's sleep issue with the counselor. I think you will have less problems with the 8 year old once she has her own quiet, dark space and you kindly inform her that she does not need you to sleep. Good luck with all of this, I know how difficult it can be.

[Harriet Vane]

My kids have always been welcome to come snuggle with me at night. If it's just too darned crowded I have allowed them to sleep on a mat next to my bed. I totally understand your perspective on this.

 

However.

 

In this case you're not going to be able to please everybody, so you're going to have to make a good choice with their best interests in mind and then stick with it consistently. I think the consistency over a period of time will carry this issue through.

 

Dd is too old to share a room with her brother, especially with puberty looming. My own dd is in the throes of puberty, and yes, privacy is an issue.

 

I would clear the office. Cram your desk into your own bedroom. Line the hall with the bookcases if you have to. You could even consider packing away some of those books, just for this season of your life.

 

Ds gets a bedroom of his own because he's the oldest. Play it up like it's a privilege. Dd gets a bedroom of her own because it's better for her, as a girl, to keep modest and private. The twins share. Be positive and firm, and do not attempt to persuade anyone to accept this. Just inform them--sweetly, smilingly, happily--that this is the great new system you are going to live with now.

 

One other thought is that you might consider giving each kid a 15-minute snuggle after lights-out. It's not time for talking, but rather just laying there feeling warm and comfortable together. That might ease some of the feelings of being all alone. Just a thought.

[Nestof3]

All lights need to be off (to the point where she'll cover her computer mouse because the light "bothers" her) & it needs to be absolutely silent for her to sleep.

 

I'm not answering your question -- sorry. I just wanted to say:

 

That's me. I have to cover up the light on my husband's laptop. I sleep with a fan to drown out noise.

[Harriet Vane]

One further thought.

 

One major problem adding to the drama here is the hateful way the kids are speaking to each other. I think this issue needs to get some serious, focused attention. Do NOT accept the idea that siblings can be like that to each other--they need to learn not to damage each other in this way.

 

Each and every time someone says something hateful, respond asking them to say something different, nicely. If there are certain emotionally loaded phrases, they need to be totally forbidden--for example, calling your dd "fat" needs to be outlawed, with stiff consequences attached. Aside from those loaded phrases though, each and every mean statement of name needs to be "re-done," immediately. This does not have to happen in a punitive authoritarian way--you can address this with a smile, sometimes even with humor, or most times you will just be matter-of-fact. Like this, "Ds, you just said something mean to your sister. I would like you to do that over--tell her something nice." If he objects, just repeat your matter-of-fact statement. Twenty times if needed.

 

Once this layer of disharmony is addressed, it frees you up as a family to focus on the root of a conflict, rather than letting the conflict get messier and messier due to the meanness.

 

Just another thought--hope it helps.

Edited March 24, 2009 by strider

[katilac]

One further thought.

 

One major problem adding to the drama here is the hateful way the kids are speaking to each other. I think this issue needs to get some serious, focused attention. Do NOT accept the idea that siblings can be like that to each other--they need to learn not to damage each other in this way.

 

Each and every time someone says something hateful, respond asking them to say something different, nicely. If there are certain emotionally loaded phrases, they need to be totally forbidden--for example, calling your dd "fat" needs to be outlawed, with stiff consequences attached. Aside from those loaded phrases though, each and every mean statement of name needs to be "re-done," immediately. This does not have to happen in a punitive authoritarian way--you can address this with a smile, sometimes even with humor, or most times you will just be matter-of-fact. Like this, "Ds, you just said something mean to your sister. I would like you to do that over--tell her something nice." If he objects, just repeat your matter-of-fact statement. Twenty times if needed.

 

Once this layer of disharmony is addressed, it frees you up as a family to focus on the root of a conflict, rather than letting the conflict get messier and messier due to the meanness.

 

Just another thought--hope it helps.

 

:iagree: This is the problem I would strongly and immediately address.

[KristineinKS]

Oh my, you guys are wonderful! I truly appreciate all the words of advice from everyone. I will be giving up the office & moving the bedrooms this weekend, so hopefully we'll have some peace again!

 

Ds gets a bedroom of his own because he's the oldest. Play it up like it's a privilege. Dd gets a bedroom of her own because it's better for her, as a girl, to keep modest and private. The twins share. Be positive and firm, and do not attempt to persuade anyone to accept this. Just inform them--sweetly, smilingly, happily--that this is the great new system you are going to live with now.

 

You're right - this is exactly what I need to do. When I initially presented the idea, I was trying to persuade them & they weren't having it. But I'm going to have to inform them that this is how it's going to be.

 

Shoot! This is a tough spot you are in. I can totally understand every side of this. My dd can't handle being alone (major anxiety) but books on take help her fall asleep. Maybe they would help your son.

This is a great idea! I'm going to go to the library today to find him a book to listen to.

 

One further thought. One major problem adding to the drama here is the hateful way the kids are speaking to each other. I think this issue needs to get some serious, focused attention. Do NOT accept the idea that siblings can be like that to each other--they need to learn not to damage each other in this way.

 

Each and every time someone says something hateful, respond asking them to say something different, nicely. If there are certain emotionally loaded phrases, they need to be totally forbidden--for example, calling your dd "fat" needs to be outlawed, with stiff consequences attached. Aside from those loaded phrases though, each and every mean statement of name needs to be "re-done," immediately. This does not have to happen in a punitive authoritarian way--you can address this with a smile, sometimes even with humor, or most times you will just be matter-of-fact. Like this, "Ds, you just said something mean to your sister. I would like you to do that over--tell her something nice." If he objects, just repeat your matter-of-fact statement. Twenty times if needed.

 

You're absolutely right and I'm glad you pointed this out because I've gotten so used to them being mean lately that I figured it was normal. However the result is that I've now got an 8-year-old obsessing about her weight, which is perfectly crazy. The boys seem to enjoy picking on her because it upsets her, but of course that's not acceptable...and whenever I try to calm her down after they've made her cry, it only makes them behave more unkindly to her. Here again, my eldest is the ring leader & so often it seems that he does it because he's jealous of her. I try to spend time with them equally but my daughter often demands more time (especially lately!), or will hang out in my office while I work, whereas he hates to stop whatever he's doing to spend quality time with me. Often I don't push it because between school & work & cooking & cleaning & everything else, I have very little time to spare. Plus with DH about to lose his job, my job will be our only source of income, so I'm being pressured to work more hours, ack.

 

Anyway, the eldest has a counseling appointment this morning so I'll bring this all up again -- hopefully we can get to the root of the problem as to why he feels the need to be so unkind, though from now on there will be consequences for it.

[KristineinKS]

I'm not answering your question -- sorry. I just wanted to say:

 

That's me. I have to cover up the light on my husband's laptop. I sleep with a fan to drown out noise.

 

Well I'm glad to know she's not the only one because my Grandmother keeps telling me that DD is just being neurotic and "demanding" & that I shouldn't put up with it...but I can't very well ignore it or she doesn't sleep! She just started being this way very suddenly & it's been challenging to deal with.

[SonshineLearner]

I would say that maybe you can put a pretty kid looking curtain over a few things like bookshelves and such, and kinda have one wall that's yours in the kids bedrooms?

Also, try the Love and Logic thing with your oldest one or two.... Two hours (is it once a week, or every other week) of undivided.. time...hopefully if your husband likes the bedroom for just you two...he'll support this... It's suppose to be a scheduled time ....(you can't break it..but the child can) and it's not a spendy thing...your child decides what to do during the time. You can read about it in the Love and Logic books...I think....I remember it from the classes.

Carrie

[Karen sn]

It sounds to me like your son is very manipulative. Knowing what I know about my friends' brothers - this would worry me and there is absolutely NO WAY he would be in the room with my dd. (And I am NOT AT ALL opposed to brothers and sisters sharing a room when they happy and safe).

 

And as far as anyone in the house calling dd fat - well, they would be sitting at the table writing sentences....I will not call anyone names because it is rude and I am not allowed to be rude while I live under my mother's roof. 100 times. And every single time they did it - they would be writing.

 

I think wanting a dark room at night is healthy - so that the light of the mouse bothers her is natural. You are really supossed to sleep in a completely dark room with no electrical devices plugged in and you should not even have your bed against an outlet.

 

But when sharing a room causes her to sob - I think you have a big problem on your hands.

[KristineinKS]

Well we're back from counseling & now I'm more confused than ever. My son doesn't want more time with me - he feels that I divide my time fairly, so that's not an issue. His sole complaint is that his sister is "spoiled" & is always getting her way. Yet when pressed to elaborate he couldn't (because it's not true!). He seems to be taking it very personally that she wants her own room. Up until a few months ago they were very close & he seems to resent the fact that she doesn't want to do much with him anymore. So he calls her fat & she gets upset. They're both very sensitive & they both hold grudges. However, he thinks he "needs" the TV to fall asleep & she needs utter silence, so they're not compatible in that regard...I think that's probably what started this whole mess & her not wanting him in her room. (Yes it's another issue with him wanting the TV at night, that's going to stop!) The counselor did not think that I should give up my office & allow DD her own room, but I kind of disagree. I do think she needs her own space. He suggested putting her on the living room couch (right outside my bedroom), but that's hardly a long-term solution. So, I'll be thinking about this more. Perhaps I can share the office space with her by putting her bed in here or maybe I need to move out completely (it's a pretty tiny room). It's all very frustrating!

[dirty ethel rackham]

Oh, My. I have to wonder about a counselor who does not think the only girl in a family should have to share a room with a brother, especially as she enters puberty. The puberty issues and ensuing privacy needs would be big enough, but having a sibling call her FAT? Whoa boy, that would be enough to ensure that she gets her room. If anyone should be sleeping on the couch, it is ds who feels that it is ok to call a sibling "fat." It is not his job to determine whether or not your dd is spoiled.

 

Your son, with all his problems (and I am not unsympathetic to those) does sound manipulative. He sounds like he does not want to grow up and is lashing out where it hurts because he is hurting. There is a fine line between being understanding and too tolerant, KWIM? I wish you luck in finding that balance.

 

In my house, I have VERY low tolerance for treating siblings poorly. I grew up in a house where that garbage was tolerated and I was usually the brunt of it. 2 of my 3 brothers thought it was fun to get little sis to cry. Oldest sister never forgave me for being born and was absolutely HORRID to me. Being around family is still very stressful. In my house, meanness and bad attitudes that do not improve with "do-overs" and extra loving - are rewarded with chores - the victim's chores.

[KristineinKS]

I know, I was stunned that the counselor didn't think DD needed her own room. And I don't plan on following his advice about the couch.

 

Your son, with all his problems (and I am not unsympathetic to those) does sound manipulative. He sounds like he does not want to grow up and is lashing out where it hurts because he is hurting. There is a fine line between being understanding and too tolerant, KWIM? I wish you luck in finding that balance.

 

In my house, I have VERY low tolerance for treating siblings poorly. I grew up in a house where that garbage was tolerated and I was usually the brunt of it. 2 of my 3 brothers thought it was fun to get little sis to cry. Oldest sister never forgave me for being born and was absolutely HORRID to me. Being around family is still very stressful. In my house, meanness and bad attitudes that do not improve with "do-overs" and extra loving - are rewarded with chores - the victim's chores.

 

This is very true...he's often told me lately that he's "four," and therefore can't do "x" (usually something simple I'm asking him to do, like make his own sandwich for lunch). And he's repeatedly told me that he doesn't want to grow up, doesn't want to go to college & plans to live with me for the rest of his life. I'm hoping this is just a weird phase he's going through, but it's not something I understand because it's just odd. Part of it very well may be manipulation (he is a bit of a manipulator), but part of him seems genuinely not to want to grow up!

 

They've got new rules today in regard to picking on each other. They understand that they have one chance for a "do over" & if that's not done to my satisfaction, they'll be writing lines. So far, two of them ended up writing lines. Hopefully this will improve things since they really hate writing! I was raised as an only child so this is all still new to me as far as what's normal & what to expect. I'm horrified at the thought of it lasting though & definitely want to curb the behavior now!

 

Dirty Ethel Rackham ~ you mention your eldest sister never forgiving you for being born, I wonder what to do in this situation?! My eldest often tells his siblings that he wishes they were never born or wishes they would die & when I ask him about it he says "Well I'm just telling the truth!" That said, I do believe that his siblings are his best friends. Despite the horrible behavior I've mentioned, the kids do everything together - even when other friends are over. I don't know, it's just puzzling all the way around.

[dirty ethel rackham]

 

Dirty Ethel Rackham ~ you mention your eldest sister never forgiving you for being born, I wonder what to do in this situation?! My eldest often tells his siblings that he wishes they were never born or wishes they would die & when I ask him about it he says "Well I'm just telling the truth!" That said, I do believe that his siblings are his best friends. Despite the horrible behavior I've mentioned, the kids do everything together - even when other friends are over. I don't know, it's just puzzling all the way around.

 

I wish I had definititive answers on the sibling issue. I do know that my mother did somethings that intensified sibling rivalry rather than diffused it. I think my older sister was somewhat spoiled, being the only female grandchild for a long time (6 years) and was doted on by the grandmas. She has always been a selfish person, thinks only of herself and blames all her problems on others. I think my mom was overwhelmed with six kids to notice anything but the squeaky wheel and I was simply too afraid of big sis to tattle.

 

Anyway, I was determined not to foster these kinds of relationships between my children so I did a lot of reading. One of my favorite books on the subject is Siblings Without Rivalry by Faber and Mazlish.

[unsinkable]

I know, I was stunned that the counselor didn't think DD needed her own room. And I don't plan on following his advice about the couch.

 

 

 

This is very true...he's often told me lately that he's "four," and therefore can't do "x" (usually something simple I'm asking him to do, like make his own sandwich for lunch). And he's repeatedly told me that he doesn't want to grow up, doesn't want to go to college & plans to live with me for the rest of his life. I'm hoping this is just a weird phase he's going through, but it's not something I understand because it's just odd. Part of it very well may be manipulation (he is a bit of a manipulator), but part of him seems genuinely not to want to grow up!

 

They've got new rules today in regard to picking on each other. They understand that they have one chance for a "do over" & if that's not done to my satisfaction, they'll be writing lines. So far, two of them ended up writing lines. Hopefully this will improve things since they really hate writing! I was raised as an only child so this is all still new to me as far as what's normal & what to expect. I'm horrified at the thought of it lasting though & definitely want to curb the behavior now!

 

Dirty Ethel Rackham ~ you mention your eldest sister never forgiving you for being born, I wonder what to do in this situation?! My eldest often tells his siblings that he wishes they were never born or wishes they would die & when I ask him about it he says "Well I'm just telling the truth!" That said, I do believe that his siblings are his best friends. Despite the horrible behavior I've mentioned, the kids do everything together - even when other friends are over. I don't know, it's just puzzling all the way around.

 

Are these your biological children? I'm just wondering if he has an attachment disorder.

[specialmama]

Are these your biological children? I'm just wondering if he has an attachment disorder.

 

.... and the plot thickens....

I've been studying attachment disorders... yikes...

 

 

Can I add a P.S. here, because it hits me across the face every darn time I see it. I had an eating disorder as a teen, and let me tell you, some wounds never heal. To this day I have bouts of poor self-image and it can all be traced back to one comment. The thought of someone calling a young girl fat just gets my blood boiling. He has no idea how harmful even ONE comment can be! ONE TIME! That's all it takes. No amount of "doing over" is going to erase that from her mind. Writing lines may work for him, but I'd call for a 5 page neatly written essay on why name calling hurts, what it means to show love, and how he treasures his only sister. I'd have absolutely zero tolerance for hurt like that. As for your daughter, I'd look into some very feminine reading on how lovely it is to be a young lady, hopefully she can feel blessed, encouraged and unashamed. Beautiful Girlhood by Karen Andreola, or some of the books from Doorposts perhaps?

 

Praying for you to have Godly wisdom here, it seems like a very difficult situation to be in. :grouphug:

[FriedClams]

I would also add - (((HUGS))) to you, mom! Hang in there!

 

Creative Correction by Lisa Welchel has some great ideas for creative ways to deal with sibling issues and other attitude stuff. Great stuff for your kids ages.

 

I would disallow all outside activities until the kids get a handle on their words. I find that it focuses the kids on being more kind more quickly and there are few rivalry issues with friends, etc.

 

I don't know your kids but it does sound like a ton of drama and that they are working you over a bit ('cause you're an awesome mom who loves her kids). What does DH say about the whole thing. My DH often can cut to the chase with no emotion and 99% of the time it solves the issue. I'd talk with him.

[Ria]

Don't take this the wrong way, but sometimes I think people can listen to their children too much, to the point that the child's behavior (whatever worried the parent to begin with) is actually encouraged. For example, your son is in counseling. He speaks meanly to his siblings. He manipulates you. And yet, because he's viewed as unhappy and in need of counseling, the behavior continues....he's not nice, you worry, he goes to counseling, you worry, he's not nice, etc. In short, he gets attention from his behavior...from you worrying, from counseling, from you being concerned that you'll upset him, etc.

 

It might not hurt to tell him to suck it up, that he's growing up, that you aren't going to listen to him whine about the unfairness of it all.

 

I hope that doesn't sound horribly mean; I don't intend for it to. We have a very sensitive child (our youngest) who will claim that everything is unfair, that his sibs aren't nice to him, etc. The truth, however, is he learned early that as the baby he got listened to and got the attention/results he wanted if he complained a bit. We really have to watch out for that even now that he's older. Old habits die hard.

 

Ria

[Harriet Vane]

Well we're back from counseling & now I'm more confused than ever. My son doesn't want more time with me - he feels that I divide my time fairly, so that's not an issue. His sole complaint is that his sister is "spoiled" & is always getting her way. Yet when pressed to elaborate he couldn't (because it's not true!). He seems to be taking it very personally that she wants her own room. Up until a few months ago they were very close & he seems to resent the fact that she doesn't want to do much with him anymore. So he calls her fat & she gets upset. They're both very sensitive & they both hold grudges. However, he thinks he "needs" the TV to fall asleep & she needs utter silence, so they're not compatible in that regard...I think that's probably what started this whole mess & her not wanting him in her room. (Yes it's another issue with him wanting the TV at night, that's going to stop!) The counselor did not think that I should give up my office & allow DD her own room, but I kind of disagree. I do think she needs her own space. He suggested putting her on the living room couch (right outside my bedroom), but that's hardly a long-term solution. So, I'll be thinking about this more. Perhaps I can share the office space with her by putting her bed in here or maybe I need to move out completely (it's a pretty tiny room). It's all very frustrating!

 

I have to say I'm not real impressed with the counselor's thoughts at this point. As far as I can tell, your dd is not the one misbehaving (generally speaking), but is expected to (1) give up her room (2) give up her privacy right on the cusp of puberty (3) and sleep on the couch ?!?!?

 

What part of this makes sense?

 

Did the counselor make these recommendations in your son's hearing? I would also be disturbed if he did. You need room as the parent to make the final decision on household arrangements, and your son does NOT need this professional to fuel his self-focus right now.

 

There are a couple issues with sharing the room:

 

--They are not compatible in terms of light or sound at bedtime. This is a legitimate issue, and too much emotional weight has been given to what is essentially a logistical issue. A solution needs to be found that allows for both kids' needs in this regard. Separate sleeping rooms make sense to me, though if they were BOTH boys I would think other solutions could be explored.

 

--Your dd is the only girl, and she is entering puberty, both key points. She needs privacy. Enough said there.

 

--Your ds, by his own admission, is entirely focused in an unhealthy way on his sister's so-called privileges. I would absolutely NOT feed that mindset by removing privileges from your daughter. I am really surprised a counselor would find that a healthy or fair solution. What happens with the bedrooms should NOT be based on ds' desire to take from his sister.

 

I hope this helps. As a disclaimer, I am not in any way opposed to professional therapy. In fact, I am a hearty supporter of it. However, the therapist's response to this situation has me scratching my head and questioning his competence. I was not there, however, and don't know all that was said or how well he has helped your overall family situation. As such, I just urge you to consider whether or not this is the right therapist for your ds--perhaps this advice is an aberration from a normally good therapeutic relationship?? Or perhaps not??? Just think and pray about it.

[myfunnybunch]

My eldest often tells his siblings that he wishes they were never born or wishes they would die & when I ask him about it he says "Well I'm just telling the truth!"

 

First, I agree with everything Ria said.

 

Second, I'd stop asking him about it or trying to discuss it, except in counseling sessions. I am trying to remember the quote that says something along the lines of our thoughts become our words, our words become our actions. While I'm sure that's a part of his truth, if he enjoys and plays with his siblings, it's not the whole truth. By calling attention to his nastiness, it is being fed and solidifying his feeling of anger and dislike toward his siblings.

 

I'd start asking for him to tell you five positives toward the victim of his unkind words, spoken out loud to you, and written. If he spoke unkindly in the hearing of the person about whom he's speaking, he must also show a kindness to his victim(s), whether it's doing a chore for them, writing a nice letter, offering a compliment, baking them cookies, playing a game with them. If he says he wishes his siblings had never been born, he must tell you and write five things he enjoys about having siblings. If they've heard him, he must do something kind for them. Then feed those positive behaviors. Make sure to point out to him what his sibs enjoy about him.

 

:grouphug:

 

I have a dd who really struggles with sibling relationships. It takes hard hard and sometimes heartbreaking work on my part to help keep things peaceful and loving, as much as possible anyway. Hang in there.

 

Cat

[KristineinKS]

It sounds like your twins are tight. Is it possible that being the only other boy, he really resents the twins and not his sister? I have known a couple families with multiples and there has been resentment between the non multiple and the twins/triplets because of the bond that the multiples have with each other.

 

Ironically, this is one of the reasons we started counseling...he had real issues with one of the twins (and while he is fairly close to the "eldest" twin, he is jealous of their closeness).

 

Are these your biological children? I'm just wondering if he has an attachment disorder.

 

Yes they are my biological children. Oddly enough, the eldest was born a very, very high need child. I couldn't ever put him down for a second & kept him in a sling constantly (I read many books on attachment parenting and followed that closely). Even for naps, I had to lay down with him in order for him to sleep & he always slept with me at night. However, when he was 11 months old the twins were born (my ex-husband left when I was only 2 months pg w/them)...so I was a single mom raising the three of them & he stopped getting ALL the attention all the time, though he still got plenty.

 

Don't take this the wrong way, but sometimes I think people can listen to their children too much, to the point that the child's behavior (whatever worried the parent to begin with) is actually encouraged. For example, your son is in counseling. He speaks meanly to his siblings. He manipulates you. And yet, because he's viewed as unhappy and in need of counseling, the behavior continues....he's not nice, you worry, he goes to counseling, you worry, he's not nice, etc. In short, he gets attention from his behavior...from you worrying, from counseling, from you being concerned that you'll upset him, etc.

 

I agree - I do feel at times like I'm listening to him too much. Out of all the kids, he is by far the most spoiled. It's really blatantly unfair actually, but I've been more mindful of this in the past year & have been trying to even things out. The other kids don't even complain about it & are always thinking of him first, they have good hearts and are very generous even when he's awful to them. I think I really, really need to toughen up because maybe I am simply reinforcing the negative.

 

Today was actually our first counseling session in a few months. Since removing the kids from public school in November there has been vast improvement in their attitudes - especially toward each other since they're now together all day long.

I have to say I'm not real impressed with the counselor's thoughts at this point. As far as I can tell, your dd is not the one misbehaving (generally speaking), but is expected to (1) give up her room (2) give up her privacy right on the cusp of puberty (3) and sleep on the couch ?!?!?

 

What part of this makes sense?

 

Did the counselor make these recommendations in your son's hearing? I would also be disturbed if he did. You need room as the parent to make the final decision on household arrangements, and your son does NOT need this professional to fuel his self-focus right now.

 

I know, I'm questioning these things myself...these recommendations were made in my son's presence, so now tonight of course my son is demanding that dd move to the couch (and she is furious at the suggestion). The counselor came highly recommended (he attends my Grandmother's church & is very experienced at working with kids, plus his wife homeschools which was a bonus), but I'm a little displeased at how he seems to be fueling my son's self-absorption at times. I know he means well, but today in particular was not very helpful.

 

---

 

I just remembered something that may be helpful "background information" here. 3-4 years ago my eldest witnessed my ex (fiance) flip out & beat me to a pulp, nearly killing me. This is the man who was the closest thing to a father my kids have ever had & the eldest was especially close to him since his son was the same age & his best friend. He'd been in their life for years and had never *ever* been violent until that day. That incident single-handedly changed my son in a very big way (he's the one who called the police & essentially saved my life).

 

Not quite a year later, I was involved with Weim rescue & accidentally got between one of our dogs & a new rescue who were fighting. I got some pretty severe bites & again, the eldest was the one who stepped in & called an ambulance & helped apply pressure to all of the wounds. His counselor seems to think that seeing me at what [DS] perceived to be "near death" twice has affected him severely, or caused him to have post-traumatic stress disorder (well, and the incident with my ex was even more complicated since it was someone he was so close to). I'm certain these 2 incidents have affected him but don't know enough about PTSD to know if that's the problem here (he is a very quiet introverted child except when it comes to picking on his siblings!). Oh and of course then I got remarried last year, which DS didn't like (he doesn't trust men anymore, though lately he's finally warming up to DH). Despite counseling for myself in the past, I still feel a lot of guilt for putting him through these things & he has definitely learned, in the past, to manipulate that guilt. I'm not sure if that's the case here or not. I don't want to make excuses for his behavior at all, it's just hard for me to know what is what in this situation.

 

SpecialMama & Dirty_ethel_rackam, I will definitely check out the book recommendations, thank you!

[KristineinKS]

I'd start asking for him to tell you five positives toward the victim of his unkind words, spoken out loud to you, and written. If he spoke unkindly in the hearing of the person about whom he's speaking, he must also show a kindness to his victim(s), whether it's doing a chore for them, writing a nice letter, offering a compliment, baking them cookies, playing a game with them. If he says he wishes his siblings had never been born, he must tell you and write five things he enjoys about having siblings. If they've heard him, he must do something kind for them. Then feed those positive behaviors. Make sure to point out to him what his sibs enjoy about him.

 

I love this idea, thank you! Now if only I could get him (and the others) to take it seriously! Today I tried to make them say something nice after insulting one another (I've noticed the twins really follow his lead, so when he insults his sister, they all jump in) but the kids refused to take it seriously until I assigned the lines!

[Harriet Vane]

I love this idea, thank you! Now if only I could get him (and the others) to take it seriously! Today I tried to make them say something nice after insulting one another (I've noticed the twins really follow his lead, so when he insults his sister, they all jump in) but the kids refused to take it seriously until I assigned the lines!

 

Just keep on keeping on. They'll get used to it. And it's okay to coach them through what some kind words might be. At the beginning they might really be bewildered about what to say, especially in the heat of the moment. Say something like, "I can see you are struggling to find kind words. I'm going to help you. Tell your sister she is really good at _________." You should also keep asking them to come up with their own words. Your gentle but firm prodding, plus your giving examples as I mentioned here, will give them the right idea. Do this each. and. every. time. Your consistency will carry this through.

 

:grouphug:

[Harriet Vane]

 

 

I know, I'm questioning these things myself...these recommendations were made in my son's presence, so now tonight of course my son is demanding that dd move to the couch (and she is furious at the suggestion). The counselor came highly recommended (he attends my Grandmother's church & is very experienced at working with kids, plus his wife homeschools which was a bonus), but I'm a little displeased at how he seems to be fueling my son's self-absorption at times. I know he means well, but today in particular was not very helpful.

 

---

 

I just remembered something that may be helpful "background information" here. 3-4 years ago my eldest witnessed my ex (fiance) flip out & beat me to a pulp, nearly killing me. This is the man who was the closest thing to a father my kids have ever had & the eldest was especially close to him since his son was the same age & his best friend. He'd been in their life for years and had never *ever* been violent until that day. That incident single-handedly changed my son in a very big way (he's the one who called the police & essentially saved my life).

 

Not quite a year later, I was involved with Weim rescue & accidentally got between one of our dogs & a new rescue who were fighting. I got some pretty severe bites & again, the eldest was the one who stepped in & called an ambulance & helped apply pressure to all of the wounds. His counselor seems to think that seeing me at what [DS] perceived to be "near death" twice has affected him severely, or caused him to have post-traumatic stress disorder (well, and the incident with my ex was even more complicated since it was someone he was so close to). I'm certain these 2 incidents have affected him but don't know enough about PTSD to know if that's the problem here (he is a very quiet introverted child except when it comes to picking on his siblings!). Oh and of course then I got remarried last year, which DS didn't like (he doesn't trust men anymore, though lately he's finally warming up to DH). Despite counseling for myself in the past, I still feel a lot of guilt for putting him through these things & he has definitely learned, in the past, to manipulate that guilt. I'm not sure if that's the case here or not. I don't want to make excuses for his behavior at all, it's just hard for me to know what is what in this situation.

 

My heart goes out to you--it's been a tough road for you. From your posts it's easy to see how very much you love your children and want what's best for them. Good for you for pulling them from school--you will never, ever regret focusing as a family in this way.

 

Your ds sounds like an intense child. It takes a very strong child to act against an abuser that he truly loves, especially when in fear for himself in that incident. The inner resources necessary to save you in the two incidents you describe will serve him well. It is easy to see, also, how those two incidents would fuel his intensity and his neediness.

 

It is always hard not to let those unhappy, guilty feelings about the past color your present reality. Good for you for seeking therapy to find a new way of relating, of being "normal." Every day of practice together as a family brings you ever forward, upward, and higher. I will pray for you, tonight, right now, for wisdom in those many daily interactions and for continued healing.

 

As regards the therapist:

 

There are any number of possibilities here. Being highly recommended doesn't necessarily mean that he is a good fit for your child, your family, or your specific circumstances. This would be the first thing to evaluate.

 

Even good therapists make less than stellar recommendations sometimes. This would be the second question to ask--is his advice and handling of ds generally on the mark? Was this episode unusual, or is this type of thing his normal approach?

 

Your answers to these questions will determine whether or not you:

 

(1) Sever the therapeutic relationship and seek a different one.

 

(2) Confront him about his poor choices in this episode and set some boundaries for future therapy. He should discuss his specific recommendations for your home or parenting with you privately, not in front of ds. This does not have to be a separate session--it can be handled in the latter portion of the regular session.

 

You should also remind him that while you have come to him for help, you are still the parent and have to maintain that authority in your home and over your children. The therapist cannot take on that parental authority himself, even unwittingly, because it will ultimately undermine your family.

 

Another important boundary is that he needs to understand that ds' emotional needs (legitimate though they may be) cannot be allowed to hold the family hostage. It's not good for your ds (emotionally or otherwise) to have that power, and it's not fair to the other members of the family.

 

(3) All of the above. You might choose to sever the therapeutic relationship, but send him a letter detailing why. You are under no obligation, moral or otherwise, to do so, though. Or, in discussing your concerns with him, if he reacts poorly, that may be the confirmation you need to then sever ties. On the other hand, if he reacts to your confrontation with grace and understanding, then perhaps that will affect the therapy for the better.

 

My own instinct is to find a new therapist, but I tend to want to cut things cleanly and move on. As I said, I don't know the therapist or all that was said, so I cannot make any final judgments on his competence. However, the things I list in point (2) are things I would consider absolutely necessary for a good therapist to understand, period.

 

With regard to your ds--you'll have to tell him that the therapist does not live there in your home and cannot make the decisions. You do. Try stating your reasons for your sleeping arrangements ONCE (and ds has to listen without arguing back) and then closing the discussion. It's not a debate or a negotiation.

 

:grouphug:

[unsinkable]

 

Ironically, this is one of the reasons we started counseling...he had real issues with one of the twins (and while he is fairly close to the "eldest" twin, he is jealous of their closeness).

 

 

Yes they are my biological children. Oddly enough, the eldest was born a very, very high need child. I couldn't ever put him down for a second & kept him in a sling constantly (I read many books on attachment parenting and followed that closely). Even for naps, I had to lay down with him in order for him to sleep & he always slept with me at night. However, when he was 11 months old the twins were born (my ex-husband left when I was only 2 months pg w/them)...so I was a single mom raising the three of them & he stopped getting ALL the attention all the time, though he still got plenty.

 

 

I agree - I do feel at times like I'm listening to him too much. Out of all the kids, he is by far the most spoiled. It's really blatantly unfair actually, but I've been more mindful of this in the past year & have been trying to even things out. The other kids don't even complain about it & are always thinking of him first, they have good hearts and are very generous even when he's awful to them. I think I really, really need to toughen up because maybe I am simply reinforcing the negative.

 

Today was actually our first counseling session in a few months. Since removing the kids from public school in November there has been vast improvement in their attitudes - especially toward each other since they're now together all day long.

 

I know, I'm questioning these things myself...these recommendations were made in my son's presence, so now tonight of course my son is demanding that dd move to the couch (and she is furious at the suggestion). The counselor came highly recommended (he attends my Grandmother's church & is very experienced at working with kids, plus his wife homeschools which was a bonus), but I'm a little displeased at how he seems to be fueling my son's self-absorption at times. I know he means well, but today in particular was not very helpful.

 

---

 

I just remembered something that may be helpful "background information" here. 3-4 years ago my eldest witnessed my ex (fiance) flip out & beat me to a pulp, nearly killing me. This is the man who was the closest thing to a father my kids have ever had & the eldest was especially close to him since his son was the same age & his best friend. He'd been in their life for years and had never *ever* been violent until that day. That incident single-handedly changed my son in a very big way (he's the one who called the police & essentially saved my life).

 

Not quite a year later, I was involved with Weim rescue & accidentally got between one of our dogs & a new rescue who were fighting. I got some pretty severe bites & again, the eldest was the one who stepped in & called an ambulance & helped apply pressure to all of the wounds. His counselor seems to think that seeing me at what [DS] perceived to be "near death" twice has affected him severely, or caused him to have post-traumatic stress disorder (well, and the incident with my ex was even more complicated since it was someone he was so close to). I'm certain these 2 incidents have affected him but don't know enough about PTSD to know if that's the problem here (he is a very quiet introverted child except when it comes to picking on his siblings!). Oh and of course then I got remarried last year, which DS didn't like (he doesn't trust men anymore, though lately he's finally warming up to DH). Despite counseling for myself in the past, I still feel a lot of guilt for putting him through these things & he has definitely learned, in the past, to manipulate that guilt. I'm not sure if that's the case here or not. I don't want to make excuses for his behavior at all, it's just hard for me to know what is what in this situation.

 

SpecialMama & Dirty_ethel_rackam, I will definitely check out the book recommendations, thank you!

 

 

Krisitine,

 

Thank God you are OK! I hope you are helping yourself if you need it!

I think it witnessing the viloence does help explain much of what is happening (in my mind, anyway.)

 

For the counselor, I'd make sure he doesn't undermine you anymore before I'd continue. I think the counselor needs to support your reasonable situations (and giving your dd her own room is beyond reasonable.)

 

And a "housekeeping" issue: perhaps your dd would be ok if some of your office furniture got left in her new room. That might cut down on the chaos of a big overhaul.

 

Good luck! :grouphug: