I am sooooo pissed at ds's swim coach..vent

[Tap]

So, I have a question for those who say he shouldn't have quit the team over this...

 

 

When would it be okay for him to quit and why isn't he allowed to be the one to make this decision? There are two times a year that there are natural breaks in the swim season. This is the time of year when regular meets funnel into championship meets for State, Sectional and Zone Meets. He isn't competing in those so this is the natural break right now. Kids who aren't going to State or higher, keep swimming, to keep in shape, but don't compete in a meet again until about April or May.

 

Just because he started swimming a year ago, does that mean he has to swim forever? Swimming (private team not school) is unique in that you stay on the same team year long. The team never ends, you move up with the same team year after year. It is like gymnastics or dance. In most sports you may play on one team in regular season, and then join another team for travel or exhibition later. Football, basketball, track...they all have distinct seasons. You must tryout again next season to get back on the team. If you play off season, it is with a different team or if it is on the same team, the season is called a different name. You have to quit a swim team or you just keep swimming.

 

If a kid didn't respect his baseball coach at school, he could try out for a rec team the next year. This is what is happening here. He is leaving one team and will start with another next season, in two months (after championship) for long course season.

 

 

Why do you think he shouldn't be the one to make this decision. He is the one to live with it. If he makes the wrong decision, he will learn from that just as if he makes the right one. I will not force him to swim, if he is done, that is his call to make, not mine to make for him.

 

 

This coach is not warm and fuzzy. He isn't a coach that kids 'like'. He doesn't have any relationship with the kids other than in the pool, actively swimming. It is all about respect. He lost that with ds. Yes, it only took once. Yes, this one comment hurt that bad. But this is the power of a mentor on a child. The words would have hurst just as bad if I had called him "worthless". The way I look at it, the coach has a style of coaching, that is based solely on respect. He walks a line with these kids, he pushes them harder than they have ever been pushed before. Like I said before, he is not their friend. He is not a soft, supporting person, to him that is the parents job (and I agree, that we should be). He does well with this as long as he maintains the respect of the kids. He faltered, in a major way.

 

How would you handle it if your child played football, then at the end of the season the coach lost your child's respect. Would you force your child to be on the same team next year? Just because he played one year, would he have to play every year after that with the same coach? If your child asked to change teams, and that was reasonable, would you let him/her?

[beansprouts]

On this new team he is probably down around #20. It is an elite team and there are kids on his team that rank in the top 15for the US. There are possible Olympians on his team and this coach has coached Olympians in the past. This is why ds chose to follow him, ds knows that he is a great coach.

 

 

The real question is: What does your son want, and how badly does he want it?

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

I think ds just hit the breaking point. Ds has was giving 110%, and now he feels like it was all for nothing, and it wasn't good enough, that he is 'worthless' at swimming in his coaches eyes. He had given up everything else in his life to do this sport, and he was at the wall. A little encouragement was what he needed, even if it was a simple comment after practice "you struggled today, and your dive suffered, but I know your working hard, keep working and you'll come back stronger." He didn't have to lie and say he did good, ds knows how he dove, there is no disillusionment there. It was how the coach decided to 'coach' the moment.

 

The coach just gave the wrong comment to the wrong kid on the wrong day. He broke his spirit.

 

I can't undo what the coach did. He chose his words and they can't be erased. It is one of those moments in life, that ds will probably never forget. He has so much emotion around it. He feels so defeated and let down by his coach.

 

I'm sorry to say that I think it is days like this that "separate the men from the boys" as they say. I imagine that all professionals in fields that require practice and performance go through this moment. Certainly it hits musicians, actors, dancers, professional athletes, and probably Olympians too.

 

Your son appears to be at a crossroads not just with his coach but with his sport and the level he wishes to achieve. If he wishes to continue to compete at a high level there will be days like this-coaches, other kids, other parents will all make such remarks. I can only imagine the pain of hearing people cheer against you but it happens.

 

Who ever is his coach he needs to find a way past this incident and make some tough decisions. These sorts of problems are not going to disappear just because he switches teams.

 

I am all for guarding your children against abusive coaches but if this was aside from the norm for your coach did you give him a chance to come down from his day and apologize/make amends or did your family get angry and quit before having a reasonable discussion with the coach?

 

This is one of the great moments in life when kids realize that weeks and months of hard work sometimes go unrewarded or unacknowledged. It happens everyday in the work place and happens frequently in sports. For every Olympian on the medal stand there are hundreds or maybe even thousands who put in hours training, made sacrifices and went above and beyond but they are never recognized or given accolades. Some times you don't get the pat on the back you deserve. If he wishes to continue in competitive sports he has to learn to handle these days and then (to use another tired phrase) "get back in the saddle."

 

And to answer your question...at 14 I believe that he can make his own decision (with support and guidance from his parents). The tough part about parenting is getting him to examine why he wants to quit and if he has been able to rationally think through this event. Can he live with all the possible outcomes of quitting? You don't want to encourage a pattern of quitting every time you don't like a situation or get your feelings hurt. That is no way to live as an adult. You want him to learn sound and rational choices, when to forgive, when to give someone a second chance, when to have a rational discussion about a bad experience, what does it take to earn/loose respect, how quickly can that happen, when to react to and when to dismiss inappropriate comments and when it is really time to sever such a relationship.

Edited December 31, 2008 by JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst
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[fivetails]

Anybody who called one of my kids "worthless" would never have anything to do with them again. I don't care - you don't call someone "worthless". Ever.

[FloridaLisa]

Were it me making a decision under these circumstances, it would boil down to one question: Is this the kind of man that I want to have a huge influence on my son?

 

Yes, coaches can be tough. And overstep. But, usually coaches come and go; you have them for a season or a year and then move on.

 

But your son is spending 24 hours of intense committment with this man and has for the last 3 years.

 

Lisa

[Kris]

I couldn't disagree more with those who think this boy shouldn't quit this coach.

 

By leaving him in this situation, what is he learning? To continue to beat his head against a brick wall? How many adults would be willing to do that for as long as this boy already has?!

 

I think it's pretty obvious that her son isn't looking for someone to tell him how wonderful he is if he isn't. How about a little constructive criticism to help him get better? The comment that was made accomplished absolutely nothing positive. There were *so* many other, better ways to tell him how poorly he was doing -- and apparently he was and agrees with that. But the coach wasn't creative enough, or man enough, to do it.

 

It isn't this one little thing that has broken this kid -- it's been building for a long time. It's the final straw.

 

I don't blame him a bit.

[beansprouts]

It isn't this one little thing that has broken this kid -- it's been building for a long time. It's the final straw.

 

 

Nobody can break me without my permission.

[LMA]

All I can say is if you use the coach's comments while working at your job, you will be fired and you and your company will be sued. What if a clerk said this to a customer in a store? What if you called your coworker a cripple? The coach was unprofessional. People have been fired for saying lesser things on the job.

[Kris]

The real question is: What does your son want, and how badly does he want it?

 

There's more than one way to skin a cat. Is this coach really the only one who can help this boy get what he wants? And how will they know, if he doesn't train with anyone else, if he really is reaching his potential?

[Kris]

Nobody can break me without my permission.

 

Not everyone in the world is that strong. And you're not a 14 year old kid.

[beansprouts]

There's more than one way to skin a cat. Is this coach really the only one who can help this boy get what he wants? And how will they know, if he doesn't train with anyone else, if he really is reaching his potential?

 

These are all questions that should be asked. Up to this point the choice has been based on emotion. I think we need to bring it to a practical level, determine what the young man's goals are, and how best to achieve them. If this team is his best opportunity, does he really want to let a single rude comment from a cranky old jock spoil his chances at achieving his goals?

[purplecow7]

How did this comment affect your son? I was a springboard diver and it was not uncommon for my coach to yell, "My grandmother could do better then that and she is in wheel chair." "Or give me 50 sit-ups and then do it again - what is wrong with you - you used to do this dive in your sleep" (especially if I was having an off day). That was his style - there was no room for complements - that came during the meet. You either did well or you did not.

 

Swimming or any sport at your sons level is competitive and coaches at this level are expected to get results and not hear excuses from kids about being sick or tired. I know not what most parents want to hear. It is not uncommon for some of the swimmerst to have to produce doctor's notes for missed practices. If swimmers did not show up for practices regardless of the reason even if they where swimming at another pool - they would not have been able to compete with the team.

 

My children are doing Travel soccer and even at their young ages 9 and 7 it is amazing how competitive it is. We have just decided with the help of my 7 year old dd to change her travel soccer team from the more elite legue to a less known one, because we like the coaching style of the other team and she has more friends on that team. It was a difficult decision, but for us at the end of the day we want our children to enjoy what they are doing. But if they really want it we will do whateve we can to help them. Like for my 9 year he recieved private coaching to help him with his kick. (to some this would be crazy for a 9 year old, but he wants to be a professional soccer player).

 

I guess I would have a heart to heart with your son and ask him what he wants. And then let the coach be the coach and you remain the supportive parent that you sound like you are.

[Highereducation]

This for me is key - that this coach lost your son's respect. A coach cannot coach effectively if he does not have the respect of his athletes. I say Kudos for standing up for your son.

 

I agree wholeheartedly. While I can appreciate the male perspective that was given earlier in the thread, I have to disagree with what he said.

 

Having been a hockey fanatic for 30+ years and having had the chance to talk to some insiders who have a pretty good understanding of what goes on in the NHL, I can say with some degree of certaintly that the tough-love approach doesn't always work, even in pro sports. There have been multiple instances (several very recent ones) of a coach employing those kinds of tactics and as a result, losing the team. Taking away a player's self-respect does nothing to improve team morale, nor does it improve individual performance. I know of two examples where a player was basically ruined by a coach and lost his entire season, only to be traded and regain his game again in a more hospitable environment.

 

There are several coaches I have nothing but respect for, and then there are several who are rumored to be jerks. Funny enough, all of the rumored "jerks" seem to be currently unemployed. Hmmmm.

 

Since the ds of the OP has other opportunities to swim and further his accomplishments, why not take advantage of them? Humiliation will only serve to get in his way.

[beansprouts]

Not everyone in the world is that strong. And you're not a 14 year old kid.

 

So how is that strength learned?

[Plucky]

I think kind of coaching and this kind of talk to kids need to be reported to those in charge. I don't know the answer to if your son should quit. I know I could not tolerate this type of coaching. I think a wake up call for the coach irregardless of your son's decision is important. This hate talk is unacceptable.

[Colleen]

What a disappointing situation. No question, I'd be upset with the coach and would have to work hard to retract my Mama Bear claws. But even though you said this isn't a matter of being a Mama Bear, I think how you handled this speaks otherwise. The reality is that your son is angry and hurt, you are understandably angry and hurt on his behalf, and you're acting as an intermediary rather than allowing him to handle his own business.

 

Does he have the right to make a decision to quit the team? Of course ~ although I lean toward agreeing with pqr's comments and would encourage my son not to quit a team over one grossly inappropriate comment. I'd suggest instead that my son speak directly with the coach about the matter and then make a decision as to what direction he wants to go. If he opted to switch teams, I'd have him communicate that himself to the coach.

 

Instead, here's what happened ~ or how I'm reading it from your posts. You (and your son?) have had some resentment building up toward this coach. You've wanted the coach to be more supportive of your son. You're surprised he hasn't been particularly encouraging in light of the fact that your son has been pushing himself through this bout of mono. (Which, as an aside, I don't even think was a smart thing to do. But that was your choice, and your son's choice, and not necessarily deserving of kudos from the coach.)

 

In the face of all this, the coach's stoopid comment particularly stung. Again, understandable. And again, a good reason for your son to go and talk to the coach. But you chose to react to this one incident, calling up the coach yourself and quitting on behalf of your son. That, to me, isn't a good example to your son and isn't how you should have handled it. Which isn't to say I would've reacted swimmingly (pardon the pun) in your shoes. Having read about this objectively, though, that's my two cents. Hugs to you ~ it hurts to see our children hurt! ~ and to your hard-working, kind son.

[LisaNY]

I just asked ds 13 (who is also a competitive swimmer) about this situation, and asked what he would do.

 

His first question: "Well, just how bad was the kid's dive?" :)

 

He then went on to say that he would probably tell the coach that his comment hurt his feelings, but he didn't think it would be something to quit the team over.

 

Women and men handle things differently, and I'd definitely run this through dh and ds' manly filters and let them handle it. I think I agree with my ds, and also pqr's comments.

 

Were I the OP, and had already called the coach, I'd call him back and speak to *him* (not voice mail) to tell him I'd overreacted. If I were to say anything, I would maybe address the disabled comment, letting him know that I thought that was over the line, but I might not even do that.

 

The Mama Bear instinct is a fierce one, but with a 14 yo ds, my concern would be with how to help ds handle the situation and the criticism. This is a great teaching situation for dh and ds to work through how a man responds to embarrassment, hurt, criticism, etc. There'll be much more of it throughout his life, and mommy won't always be there to handle it.

 

:iagree:

 

I would not have quit on the spot. I would definitely have arranged a meeting with the coach to discuss his comments. Everyone needs to be accountable.

[camibami]

If he wants to quit, he needs to. Making him stay- no matter HOW good the coach's results are- only reinforces the culture of degrading, abusive coaching as "the way it is".

 

We have a coach with a, uh, less than cuddly demenaor. Personally, I would have run after the first class, especially at age 5, if I was my DD. But she loves her sport. There is much crying and gnashing of teeth at practices, lots of yelling, and to be frank I imagine if I videotaped a practice, most people who watched would be screaming at me for allowing my DD to be put through such treatment. *BUT*- she loves it. We have no other options for this sport- it is hard to find. It is the only thing she ever tried (and we tried them aaallllllll!) that she enjoyed. So she will try to let the coach roll off her back, as all the girls do, because the only other option is quitting. If she chooses to quit, I will happily pull her, but until then- she is the one who has to handle it.

 

Not allowing your son (or my DD) to quit means you are forcing your child to put up with behavior you know **** well an adult wouldn't- which is how these coaches get this way in the first place. Parents are so blinded by the great results and medals, they don't care how their child is treated and chalk it up to "how it is". Let that boy quit, and let HIM write a letter to the coach telling him how dissapointed he is in him. It may make a difference for other kids someday.

 

My Dd and I have had very frank discussions on what the coach says and how it feels, and it always boils down to "its wrong, but if you want to do this sport, its the only option". And so she stays. The ones I really feel for are the girls with parents who will not let them quit, no matter what. There are a few of those, and its heartbreaking to watch. Don't do that to your child in the name of "toughening him up". There are lots of swim teams and coaches- tell this one to talk a long walk off a short pier.

[unsinkable]

This is a general comment:

 

Tap said this type of comment is an abberition. He hasn't humilated her son before verbally. He also has been a coach who is very sparse in his praise/positive reinforcement.

 

I think there are a few different questions here:

 

 

1. Did the coach act inappropriately?

 

2. Should the coach be addressed for his comments?

 

3. Should Tap's son stay on the team?

 

4. Is this the best coach for Tap's son?

[unsinkable]

If he wants to quit, he needs to. Making him stay- no matter HOW good the coach's results are- only reinforces the culture of degrading, abusive coaching as "the way it is".

 

We have a coach with a, uh, less than cuddly demenaor. Personally, I would have run after the first class, especially at age 5, if I was my DD. But she loves her sport. There is much crying and gnashing of teeth at practices, lots of yelling, and to be frank I imagine if I videotaped a practice, most people who watched would be screaming at me for allowing my DD to be put through such treatment. *BUT*- she loves it. We have no other options for this sport- it is hard to find. It is the only thing she ever tried (and we tried them aaallllllll!) that she enjoyed. So she will try to let the coach roll off her back, as all the girls do, because the only other option is quitting. If she chooses to quit, I will happily pull her, but until then- she is the one who has to handle it.

 

Not allowing your son (or my DD) to quit means you are forcing your child to put up with behavior you know **** well an adult wouldn't- which is how these coaches get this way in the first place. Parents are so blinded by the great results and medals, they don't care how their child is treated and chalk it up to "how it is". Let that boy quit, and let HIM write a letter to the coach telling him how dissapointed he is in him. It may make a difference for other kids someday.

My Dd and I have had very frank discussions on what the coach says and how it feels, and it always boils down to "its wrong, but if you want to do this sport, its the only option". And so she stays. The ones I really feel for are the girls with parents who will not let them quit, no matter what. There are a few of those, and its heartbreaking to watch. Don't do that to your child in the name of "toughening him up". There are lots of swim teams and coaches- tell this one to talk a long walk off a short pier.

 

This doesn't sound like that type of coach.

[beansprouts]

This is a general comment:

 

Tap said this type of comment is an abberition. He hasn't humilated her son before verbally. He also has been a coach who is very sparse in his praise/positive reinforcement.

 

I think there are a few different questions here:

 

 

1. Did the coach act inappropriately?

 

2. Should the coach be addressed for his comments?

 

3. Should Tap's son stay on the team?

 

4. Is this the best coach for Tap's son?

 

Maybe she should have started a poll :001_smile:

 

I would absolutely answer yes to #1 and #2.

 

#3 and #4 need to be evaluated by the young man and his family, and not from an emotional standpoint. His goals need to be considered as well as the best way to achieve them.

[Hillary in KS]

What a disappointing situation. No question, I'd be upset with the coach and would have to work hard to retract my Mama Bear claws. But even though you said this isn't a matter of being a Mama Bear, I think how you handled this speaks otherwise. The reality is that your son is angry and hurt, you are understandably angry and hurt on his behalf, and you're acting as an intermediary rather than allowing him to handle his own business.

 

Does he have the right to make a decision to quit the team? Of course ~ although I lean toward agreeing with pqr's comments and would encourage my son not to quit a team over one grossly inappropriate comment. I'd suggest instead that my son speak directly with the coach about the matter and then make a decision as to what direction he wants to go. If he opted to switch teams, I'd have him communicate that himself to the coach.

 

Instead, here's what happened ~ or how I'm reading it from your posts. You (and your son?) have had some resentment building up toward this coach. You've wanted the coach to be more supportive of your son. You're surprised he hasn't been particularly encouraging in light of the fact that your son has been pushing himself through this bout of mono. (Which, as an aside, I don't even think was a smart thing to do. But that was your choice, and your son's choice, and not necessarily deserving of kudos from the coach.)

 

In the face of all this, the coach's stoopid comment particularly stung. Again, understandable. And again, a good reason for your son to go and talk to the coach. But you chose to react to this one incident, calling up the coach yourself and quitting on behalf of your son. That, to me, isn't a good example to your son and isn't how you should have handled it. Which isn't to say I would've reacted swimmingly (pardon the pun) in your shoes. Having read about this objectively, though, that's my two cents. Hugs to you ~ it hurts to see our children hurt! ~ and to your hard-working, kind son.

 

I agree, Colleen. Well said.

[Tap]

I want to thank everyone who has been commenting so far. I really appreciate how a situation can be discussed on this board and people are willing to give honest answers. The comments with me are great and supportive, and the comments that disagree with how it was handled are welcomed too. The other mom who I carpool with was told by the coach this morning that he wouldn't be able to call me until late this afternoon.

 

Everyone's comments have really helped my play out the scenario in my head. I feel that I am prepared to have a good conversation with the coach when he calls. I do need to apologize for leaving a voice mail, and should have just asked him to call me. But at the moment I was furious and really expected that he would have called me last night. There was no way I would have sent ds into this conversation alone without me knowing the coaches take on it. Ds is not confrontational, so if I had sent him in to confront the coach and it didn't go well, I think it would have made the situation worse.

 

Ds will remain quit from the team. It is his decision, and obviously there is always more to the decision than what I have been able to type out here. It a years worth of details, that really don't need to be hashed out today. I will ask that they let ds take 2 mths off and then see how everyone feels about him rejoining. He can swim here locally to keep in practice. Some kids only swim one season or the other so it isn't unheard of for someone to come and go here and there. The coach may say yes or no to this request and either is fine, we have lots of options.

 

 

To clear up a few details, I did mama bear the phone call, but not the decision to quit. That was ds's. I am not trying to protect him from anyone, if he was okay with the coach's comment I never would have heard about it in the first place. Ds is the one who wanted to quit the coach.

 

Ds can handle criticism otherwise he never would have lasted a week with this coach. You know the gymnastic coaches at the Olympics who are yelling and screaming at the kids....he is like that. Ds can handle that. This was different to him. We don't tease about someone being 'stupid' or a 'moron' or 'worthless'. It is this that cut him the deepest. Probably because he hasn't ever heard him say that word to anyone before. This coach has taken ds from being dq'd at almost every event in his first meet, to competing on an elite team. The coach has done a lot of yelling at ds!

 

We found out ds had mono in October, he had it since late August. We thought his being tired was from starting high school on an accelerated format and carrying 7 credits, all the while changing teams. He is crazy busy, and still helps out at home and goes to church. It made sense that he was tired! When the tired didn't lift by October, I took him to the doctor, that is when we found out. By that time he was mid-meet season, and had already swam through the worst part of the mono. We decided to back off on practice, and still keep him swimming. We have constantly monitored his health along the way. He continues to improve, but it is expected that it will take about 6mths to recover, since he is still swimming and not resting like he should. We have continued with his doctor's blessing. We never expected the coach to coddle ds about the mono, or to comment on it other than, as any coach would when they have an athlete with an injury (and as he has done with other ill swimmers). In the past he has touched base with the parent to make sure their health is staying stable, practice isn't interfering with long term healing and gives the kids a little more encouragement like "your not up to your old times, but you seem to be working hard. Keep it up."

 

We took time off during the ice storm because of the mono but also because it wasn't safe to drive for our length of commute. The coach sent workouts daily via email for the kids to work through in a nearby pool. Time off was with his blessing.

 

I will talk to the coach before ds does because I want his take on the situation before he has a chance to do more damage if he feels he didn't do anything wrong. Ds will be either talking to him in the next few days or writing a letter to him, that is only fair for ds to have closure and to say goodbye and thank you for the coach has done right by ds. I think ds really needs a chance to put it all into words. Depending on how ds feels about the situation, he may decide to go talk to the coach in person. That would be great, but we will have to see.

 

Thanks again everyone for you help,

 

Feel free to keep the comments coming, they really are helpful in prepping me to discuss this with the coach later today.

[unsinkable]

I want to thank everyone who has been commenting so far. I really appreciate how a situation can be discussed on this board and people are willing to give honest answers. The comments with me are great and supportive, and the comments that disagree with how it was handled are welcomed too. The other mom who I carpool with was told by the coach this morning that he wouldn't be able to call me until late this afternoon.

 

Everyone's comments have really helped my play out the scenario in my head. I feel that I am prepared to have a good conversation with the coach when he calls. I do need to apologize for leaving a voice mail, and should have just asked him to call me. But at the moment I was furious and really expected that he would have called me last night. There was no way I would have sent ds into this conversation alone without me knowing the coaches take on it. Ds is not confrontational, so if I had sent him in to confront the coach and it didn't go well, I think it would have made the situation worse.

 

Ds will remain quit from the team. It is his decision, and obviously there is always more to the decision than what I have been able to type out here. It a years worth of details, that really don't need to be hashed out today. I will ask that they let ds take 2 mths off and then see how everyone feels about him rejoining. He can swim here locally to keep in practice. Some kids only swim one season or the other so it isn't unheard of for someone to come and go here and there. The coach may say yes or no to this request and either is fine, we have lots of options.

 

 

To clear up a few details, I did mama bear the phone call, but not the decision to quit. That was ds's. I am not trying to protect him from anyone, if he was okay with the coach's comment I never would have heard about it in the first place. Ds is the one who wanted to quit the coach.

 

Ds can handle criticism otherwise he never would have lasted a week with this coach. You know the gymnastic coaches at the Olympics who are yelling and screaming at the kids....he is like that. Ds can handle that. This was different to him. We don't tease about someone being 'stupid' or a 'moron' or 'worthless'. It is this that cut him the deepest. Probably because he hasn't ever heard him say that word to anyone before. This coach has taken ds from being dq'd at almost every event in his first meet, to competing on an elite team. The coach has done a lot of yelling at ds!

 

We found out ds had mono in October, he had it since late August. We thought his being tired was from starting high school on an accelerated format and carrying 7 credits, all the while changing teams. He is crazy busy, and still helps out at home and goes to church. It made sense that he was tired! When the tired didn't lift by October, I took him to the doctor, that is when we found out. By that time he was mid-meet season, and had already swam through the worst part of the mono. We decided to back off on practice, and still keep him swimming. We have constantly monitored his health along the way. He continues to improve, but it is expected that it will take about 6mths to recover, since he is still swimming and not resting like he should. We have continued with his doctor's blessing. We never expected the coach to coddle ds about the mono, or to comment on it other than, as any coach would when they have an athlete with an injury (and as he has done with other ill swimmers). In the past he has touched base with the parent to make sure their health is staying stable, practice isn't interfering with long term healing and gives the kids a little more encouragement like "your not up to your old times, but you seem to be working hard. Keep it up."

 

We took time off during the ice storm because of the mono but also because it wasn't safe to drive for our length of commute. The coach sent workouts daily via email for the kids to work through in a nearby pool. Time off was with his blessing.

 

I will talk to the coach before ds does because I want his take on the situation before he has a chance to do more damage if he feels he didn't do anything wrong. Ds will be either talking to him in the next few days or writing a letter to him, that is only fair for ds to have closure and to say goodbye and thank you for the coach has done right by ds. I think ds really needs a chance to put it all into words. Depending on how ds feels about the situation, he may decide to go talk to the coach in person. That would be great, but we will have to see.

 

Thanks again everyone for you help,

 

Feel free to keep the comments coming, they really are helpful in prepping me to discuss this with the coach later today.

 

I should have done this is my first post:

 

:grouphug:

 

I hope everything works out for all of you!!!

[Nakia]

Tap,

I hope everything goes well when you talk to the coach. I have no idea how I would handle the situation. I don't have teenagers yet, and mine are all girls (which I think makes a huge difference in how I would handle it). I would first want to rip his face off, and then throw his worthless butt in the pool. But I wouldn't because I hate confrontation. Well, maybe I would if he called my kid worthless. :D

 

I never played sports, but my dh played baseball through college. I asked him what he would have done if his coach had said something similar to him after a sorry pitch. He said he would have went out there next inning and "smoked him". I asked him if he would have even considered quitting and he said "No way". But there wouldn't have been anywhere else for him to play either, so that definitely makes a difference. But if I had a teenage son, I would leave the decision to ds and dh. It sounds like you are all on the same page, so that is good. Also I think I might let dh or ds talk to the coach, man-to-man.

 

Boy, I'm glad I don't have to deal with this stuff yet.

:grouphug: for you and :grouphug: for your son. He sounds like a great kid!

[Kris]

So how is that strength learned?

 

If you aren't born with it, I think one of the main ways to develop that kind of strength is through confidence and success. I really don't believe being called "worthless" is one of the building blocks.

 

I'm not saying that mediocre performance should be rewarded no matter how hard they try, but the *effort* should be acknowledged and encouraged.

[Laura K (NC)]

The coach was hard for some parents to handle. Some good players quit because they thought his temper was over the top. My son didn't take it personally when the coach yelled at the team.

 

But though the basketball coach yelled at the team, he never really crossed the line and hurled personal insults. Parents shouldn't insult their children (or anyone else for that matter!) so I don't know why coaches should be able to get away with it for the sake of competition. Occasionally our coach told a kid to get off the court during practice because the kid didn't seem to want to be there. I totally respect that, and I respect a coach who is hard on his team to get results. This basketball team won the national homeschool basketball championship (eastern division). When more is at stake, coaches must feel entitled to ask for more. But with your son, the coach wasn't asking for more. He was exhibiting a personality flaw. I don't care what level of competition a young man goes for... a coach like that has some personal problems. Results are secondary.

 

I would allow my son to quit, but I would let it be his decision. I don't think taking insults makes somebody a man. IMO, he would be a spineless wuss if he stayed on the team and subjected himself to unpredictable ravings. Maybe if he was training to be a Navy Seal, but not to be on a swim team!

 

If my son was 14, I would encourage him to do the talking. It would be difficult for him to face this coach and find the words to say, but I think it would be excellent experience and it would give the boy a sense of self respect to have faced the bear and survived. My natural tendency is to protect my boys, but I'm struggling to let them go and protect themselves now that they are 12, almost 14, and 15. As a mom, I wouldn't have any more personal contact at all with this coach. If anything else needs to be said (except for financial issues), let your son handle it if possible. Hopefully nothing else needs to be said to that maniac!

[beansprouts]

duplicate post

[beansprouts]

I never played sports, but my dh played baseball through college. I asked him what he would have done if his coach had said something similar to him after a sorry pitch. He said he would have went out there next inning and "smoked him".

 

This is interesting. One of the easiest ways to motivate my kids is to tease them, "you can't do that!"

"Oh, yes I can!!"

Then there is no stopping them. It especially works with my boys.

 

Of course they know I am joking, and I would never call them worthless...

 

Tap, it is encouraging that the coach at least intends to call. It will all work out for the best either way. You are a good Mama.

:grouphug:

[LisaKinVA]

I asked my husband about this... because he was on an extremely competitve swim team in high school (no other options, though).

 

My husband saw this the same way I did... there was no reason to call someone "worthless" -- and the rest of the comment was rude as well. He would let the child quit.

 

He said, there is something for being able to take tough criticism and to work through difficulties -- but there is a line. He would want to look at the totality of the situation -- but the coach should be called on that type of commentary, regardless.

 

Each person has different triggers which motivate, and those that deflate. Some will respond very positvely to "prove" themselves, others will crawl into a hole with the very same comment.

 

Calling someone "worthless" in an attempt to motivate a child in a sport is no more acceptable than telling a child s/he is "dumb" or "stupid" at math and then expecting the lightbulbs to go on.

[beansprouts]

Each person has different triggers which motivate, and those that deflate. Some will respond very positvely to "prove" themselves, others will crawl into a hole with the very same comment.

 

Calling someone "worthless" in an attempt to motivate a child in a sport is no more acceptable than telling a child s/he is "dumb" or "stupid" at math and then expecting the lightbulbs to go on.

 

I hope it didn't sound like I was disagreeing with this.

[LisaKinVA]

I hope it didn't sound like I was disagreeing with this.

 

I didn't take your comment that way... Just speaking from my own experience. I have two boys who, in most cases, would be eager to prove me wrong... and one extremely sensitive girl who internalizes EVERYTHING that would believe I was telling her the truth, and believe she couldn't do something. (This is a girl who was told she was allergic to chocolate and actually made herself hyperventilate, thinking her throat was closing up...we have to be very, very careful about how we say things to her).

[chaik76]

A male perspective, and yes I know that I will be very unpopular after posting this.

 

Get over it.

 

1. The coach may have been a little rough, but so what. life is rough and if the worst thing that ever happens to a 14 year old is getting put down (yes I admit harshly and publicly) by a man he respects than he is a very lucky 14 year old.

 

2. By pulling the boy from the team what have you taught him? You certainly did not teach him to stick it out, even after all the other hard work he had put in. I would under no circumstances let my boy leave the team.

 

3. Today's coaches who fill their practice sessions with "atta boys," "way to go," and "good try" do little to create adults and much to generate today's generation of mamby-pamby boys who expect praise even when they do not deserve it. Your coach, who is sparse with his praise, has helped generate (and I am sure that you have done far more than the coach) in your son a work ethic and a realistic understanding that praise when given has been earned. He should be thanked for this.

 

4. You never told us, was your son diving badly? If so then while the verbiage used may have been, in today's rather soft environment, harsh; the criticism may have been justified.

 

5. Does the coach say this type of thing to other boys? If so then it is an accepted practice and you really do not have much to complain about.

 

6. What are the other boys on the team going to say to and about your son? To be honest by leaving the team your son, not the coach, is letting his teammates down.

 

7. Your son might be angry, but what does he want?

 

 

Were it me, I would call the coach back and tell him that I spoke in haste and that my son wants to stay on the team. I might need to eat some humble pie but in the long run I would have helped my son learn a valuable lesson.

Kids do need to learn to deal with the real world. I have no beef with that. But would you let someone make this comment to you? If so, why? I wouldn't allow someone to make a comment like that to me...not at home, not at work, nor with my friends. So I certainly wouldn't expect my children to tolerate a comment like that. Now, depending on the child's disposition (are they still learning to deal with comments like this and need some help directing a response...or can they deal with it themselves?) I might handle it differently than the OP. But...if my son were capable of it, he would be telling the coach the comment was unacceptable, if he wasn't yet capable of doing so, I would be modeling for ds what to say to someone who said that. If a a manager made a comment like that to me at work, and it couldn't be resolved (i.e.; an apology, no future repercussions because I spoke up, etc.), you can bet I wouldn't be at that job long. No one deserves to be treated like that, whether they are "guys" or women. I know my dh wouldn't tolerate something like this, and I will certainly teach my sons that they must not tolerate something like this.

Edited January 1, 2009 by chaik76

[Hapax Legomena]

In all likelihood, the coach did not mean that your ds is “worthless” and did not mean to ridicule people with disabilities. He merely emoted as he saw the dive.

I am not condoning what the coach said; I am merely trying to put it in context.

Your son would probably feel much better if he merely heard the coach say, “Jonny, I am sorry I said you were worthless. You are a fine young boy, and you are not worthless. I was also not trying to ridicule handicapped people. We have adaptive and handicapped swimmers on our team. I was merely observing that you need to use your legs to get off the blocks well. If you continue to drop off the end of the blocks rather than launching out, you will not make your goal. When I get upset at you guys, don’t take it personally. I don’t mean it personally. I just know how much talent you have and how hard you work. I don’t want to see you waste that ability. Improving your dive is an important part of improving your times.”

I assume that this coach has rather strong technical skills and is known for being able to coach swimmers to reach zones, Speedos, Jr. Nationals, etc. swimmers. If so, he probably has very high expectations and may become frustrated when kids don’t perform at what he perceives to be their current level of ability.

Here is what I would do:

First, I would not quit a team based on one instance of this type. I would ask to meet with the coach face-to-face, perhaps with my swimmer, and discuss it. The coach should have the opportunity to hear what happened from the point of view of the swimmers and the parents.

In all likelihood, the coach will apologize and indicate that he will be more respectful in the future.

Second, I presume ds is swimming on a USA-Swimming team. If so, is it a coach owned team or a parent run team? Assuming that it is a parent-run team, I would speak to the board about the situation too.

The board may be dealing with several similar complaints from other parents. Specific examples will be helpful so the board can give feedback and work with the coach. I am guessing that this is not the first time the coach has said something of this nature.

Third, I would not quit at this time of year. As you know, if you quit now, your swimmer swims unattached for 120 days. That means that he cannot swim relays with another team (assuming he will join another team now). I would finish the season, through the short course state meet and then transfer. That way he could still swim long course attached in August.

Fourth, I would reflect on ds’s swimming goals and the options you have to meet those goals. I assume you are rather committed to swimming or you would not be driving the distance you are currently traveling. There is a reason you and others have made that choice. How would changing teams affect your ds’s swimming?

For example, I know of coaches that kids like very much. They are nice and not very demanding. Kids get in and out of the water freely during practice, especially if the practice is hard. Kids arrive late; get in the water late; gab with friends rather than start sets on time, etc. Some swimmers like that kind of team because they like spending time with their friends.

Other swimmers are interested in making it to state, or placing at state, or winning state, or going to zones, or getting an Olympic Trials cut, or placing highest for their age at trials, etc. These kids want to have the opportunity to excel with a coach who knows what he is doing. They like tough practices and thrive under a difficult coach.

Some of these coaches have competed on the national and international level. They understand what it takes to get to that level. They are putting their life into helping kids trying to help them achieve very high goals.

Ideally, coaches can be great coaches and respectful too. They don’t have to berate swimmers in order to achieve success. However, the communities in which we live often do not present us with a range of choices when it comes to joining teams.

If your swim team alternative is a major step backward from this situation (in regard to the coach’s technical skills and training opportunities), I would want to assess those aspects in light of ds’s goals.

Finally, if a coach were to have problems with a parent or a swimmer, I would want the coach to speak to the swimmer and parent before quitting the team. When a coach quits in the middle of a season, it creates great strain on the team.

In the same way, I would want a parent to come to the coach and board too. Leaving without making your concerns known is not helpful for the coach, the other swimmers or swimming generally.

It is less stressful if a swimmer quits in the middle of the year. However, a swimmer may be the fourth swimmer on a relay that is depending on that boy in order to even have a relay. Quitting hurts the other relay swimmers.

As we face these kinds of situations it is most helpful if we can talk to each other before jumping to conclusions and perhaps blowing things a bit out of proportion. Then, after we have talked about it, we can make an informed and reasoned decision with the best long-term interest of the partie(s) in mind.

Best wishes as you proceed.

PS. Are you familiar with Josh Davis and his story about a swim coach who told him he should switch sports because he would never be any good? He went on to become the fastest freestyler in the nation, won three Olympic gold medals and two silvers, was the flag bearer for the US delegation at the Olympics and captain of the US Team.

[3littlekeets]

which is why many of us choose swimming for our sons. I've spent many many hours watching kids of all aged coached in swimming - some of the top swimmers in the state, and I have never heard a coach mock the disabled..

 

Actually, this is what infuriated me! Why is it the coach wouldn't use a racial epithet (I hope!) but thinks nothing of comments offending people with disabilities! What a human being he is!

[Tree House Academy]

Oh man! It would have been ON! No way could I have held my tongue. I hate the way coaches think they can ridicule kids into doing better. UGH!!

[chaik76]

This is interesting. One of the easiest ways to motivate my kids is to tease them, "you can't do that!"

"Oh, yes I can!!"

Then there is no stopping them. It especially works with my boys.

 

Of course they know I am joking, and I would never call them worthless...

 

Tap, it is encouraging that the coach at least intends to call. It will all work out for the best either way. You are a good Mama.

:grouphug:

That never worked with either me or my ds...you tell us we can't do something, we'll both say "okay". We're not going to waste our time trying to prove something to someone else. That doesn't mean we won't do that thing...we'll just go somewhere else to do it. I hate these types of comments, I don't think it's the right way to live or the right way to raise children...you don't tell people they can't do something if you think they can. Why lie? Why ridicule?

 

ETA: And there's a difference between teasing and what this coach said.

Edited January 1, 2009 by chaik76

[Joanne]

To clear up a few details, I did mama bear the phone call, but not the decision to quit. That was ds's. I am not trying to protect him from anyone, if he was okay with the coach's comment I never would have heard about it in the first place. Ds is the one who wanted to quit the coach.

 

As to the bolded part: Even if you *were*, I think it's often completely appropriate.

 

We don't have competitive swimmers, but we do competititve TKD and Baseball. At nearly 14, my son's baseball has gotten *quite* competitive as the boys look at playing in high school.

 

We've had some tough coaches. I've had some "wincing" moments. I've had some coaches that have said and done things *I'd* never do, and some that have "motivated" the boys in questionable ways. And I've not stepped in. I have "stepped away" on occassion. ;)

 

All this to say that I am not speaking from an inexperienced to the topic perspective.

 

And I'd *never* allow an adult to speak to my child in the manner you describe without intervention of some kind.

 

I'm a survivor of verbal abuse. It is *never* acceptable to call a person "worthless". Add to that the disrespect shown to those with physical challenges (I have a dd who, on some days, would qualify as "cripple) and the question wouldn't be "would I do something" about it, but what would I do.

[beansprouts]

So, did he call?

[Tap]

So, did he call?

 

I was just coming to post an update :o)

 

 

 

He did call, while I was out doing errands last night. He got dh. Dh laid into him pretty good, and the coach was contrite. Coach said that he understands what ds heard, but that what he was saying was "what your doing is worthless, you may as well cut off your legs" in regards to a new kick off the wall that ds was trying. Coach agrees that rest of the comment was way off base, it wasn't thought out and agrees that demoralizing people isn't a way to coach. He never got defensive, only explained his comment, which makes sense. He also agrees that because he now sees how a comment like he made can get misconstrued due to noise level, that he will take extra effort to make sure kids hear him better. He has a voice that doesn't carry well, and over the water he is hard to understand. Before he only thought of how that interfered with directions to the kids not miscommunication with the kids like what happened here.

 

The coach was very apologetic about the cripple comment. He really felt bad and agrees that it was inappropriate and rude. He agrees that he shouldn't have said it, and that the comment, or one like, it will never again be used.

 

He told dh that he adores our son, and knows that he is very, very hard worker. He doesn't want to loose ds from the team. He had noticed a personality change and didn't want to intervene because he wasn't sure if it was a family issue bothering him. He said he regrets that now, and should have trusted his gut and talked to ds, and he will in the future.

 

The coach also offered to loan ds a neoprene suit to swim in during this cold spell. It will help with the cold but also increase drag so we will see if it helps.

 

The coach told dh he wants to apologize to me and to ds for his comment. Both the misunderstanding part, while unintentional, it really hurt ds, and for the inappropriate comment too.

 

Ds is at a New Year's party and sleepover so I won't get a chance to talk to him until tonight. I don't know what ds will decide, however unintentional, he is still really hurt. I know from experience, that when I get hurt by someone, I will drag up old memories of when the person upset me in the past and the feelings of forgiveness to the person, isn't always about the current situation. Ds obviously has some old issues to work through or this wouldn't have has such a huge impact to make him quit over it.

 

I will discourage ds from making any decision either way until he talks directly to the coach himself. I hope that the neoprene suit idea will help ds to realize that he coach understands how cold ds is. It will also help him to not feel so cold if it works. It is in the 40s here but there are still patches of snow on the ground so it isn't much over that. I really like the idea that the coach is trying to figure out a way to keep ds from leaving, instead of just saying "whatever you decide" I think that shows he is committed to ds!

 

 

The comment was rude and I don't regret letting the coach see how much impact his words have on a child, even to the point of a committed athlete leaving over it. He needed to be called out on the comment and he was. Dh said that he felt the coach really understood the impact that the one comment made on ds and that he will make sure to address it appropriately. Coach also understands that this has really damaged ds's respect of him and that that may or may not be repaired with an apology and a neoprene suit as a token of his commitment to ds. It really is in ds hands.

 

I will encourage ds to maybe take a few days off the rest of this week let his feelings settle (he has a huge commitment to fill this weekend for me and his school so it will already be a stressful weekend.) Then I will have him talk to the coach, hopefully in person and let them discuss the comment and the suit idea. I don't know what ds will decide. But to me this is part of becoming a man. He has to decide when you forgive, you forgive completely. And if he isn't ready to do that, then he has to decide what his next step is in his relationship with this coach. From what the coach says, I think he will welcome ds back at a later time if ds needs more than just this week to forgive him. Ds has a strong Christian faith, so forgiveness means something more that just a word to him. He is a gracious child though and doesn't usually harbor ill feelings unwarranted. This will be a big life lesson for ds, it will be one of the biggest decisions he will have made as a teen so far. Even if he does forgive the coach I don't know what his swimming decision will be, he may just need a break no matter what.

 

If ds decides to not go back, I will encourage him to swim out this last month or two of the season, but it will be his decision. There is one more optional meet he isn't signed up for before the big State meet, it is possible for ds to get a time fast enough on a couple of events to go to State. Mainly just to leave the slate clean with the team and the coach. It will be nice to not leave it on a note of just forgiveness of the coach, but also on the way to the relationship being healed. He can leave the team now and not be thought bad of, but it would be better to wait so he can encourage his teammates at their championship events. Kinda a 'getting back on the horse' moment. Sometimes we just have to hit bottom before we can see what what put us there and what we have lost in the process. It is only then that he will realize what he has to build on, to get back to the top. Ds is there right now. I hope that after it all is said and done, he will see that he has the support of his parents, some key teammates and parents (who know what is going on), and his coach. And while this fall hurt, it was because he had accomplished so much to get to where he was. All he has to do, to decide he want to be back on top, is jump in the pool! He just has to decide which coaches pool to jump in! If he wants to still switch teams, he can, with everyone's blessing. I hope he stays, but it has to be his decision.

 

I really appreciate everyone's comments! To the people who agreed with us, the support was lovely and encouraging. To the people who didn't, I liked being put in a position to define my reasons, and to think through the other side. It actually helped to cement my feelings just as much as the supportive side! :0) It really helped me think through what roles coaches will have in my kids lives, he is our oldest so this is uncharted territory for us. I have realized how much impact one person can have on our kids and how fragile they still are at 14yo! Thank you all for taking time to help me!

 

 

Tap

[Hapax Legomena]

I'm glad to hear that your dh was able to speak with the coach. As I read your update, I thought of another point I had meant to mention yesterday. Does the coach know that your ds has mono? Oftentimes kids and parents don't let coaches know of medical issues that may affect a swimmer's ability to practice, particularly at higher levels of distance and faster intervals. If you haven't let him know, you may wish to alert him to that point.

[chaik76]

Thanks so much for updating. I'm glad to hear that the coach called, and that, whatever the final decision, all the facts are known and will be able to be thought over. Good luck!

[Tap]

I'm glad to hear that your dh was able to speak with the coach. As I read your update, I thought of another point I had meant to mention yesterday. Does the coach know that your ds has mono? Oftentimes kids and parents don't let coaches know of medical issues that may affect a swimmer's ability to practice, particularly at higher levels of distance and faster intervals. If you haven't let him know, you may wish to alert him to that point.

 

Yes, the coach knows and was surprised ds was able to swim through it. We told the coach he was going to reduce the number of practices for a while due to it, the coach approved the action, knowing that he is under a dr.'s care.

[Nakia]

I'm glad your dh talked to him. :grouphug:

[Carol in Cal.]

I am very impressed that the coach had the character to back down like that. That says a lot for him.

 

Now I think, since this has not been chronic, and since the coach has been so appropriately apologetic, more accommodating than I think would be usual for a very competitive team, and generally showing no hard feelings at all, that it would be counterproductive and quite ungracious not to go back onto the team.

 

It's time to forgive, I think, and to show some very good character back.

[Tap]

Ds has agreed to going back on the team and now understands what was said and why. He is going to try the neoprene suit and see if that solves the cold issue. Ds hasn't talked to coach yet, but is confident that when he does they will be able to put this behind them and move on.

 

 

Yeah!

 

Thanks again,

Tap

[Danestress]

I really appreciate it when people give us updates on issues they post. It sounds like a good resolution.

[Nakia]

Ds has agreed to going back on the team and now understands what was said and why. He is going to try the neoprene suit and see if that solves the cold issue. Ds hasn't talked to coach yet, but is confident that when he does they will be able to put this behind them and move on.

 

 

Yeah!

 

Thanks again,

Tap

 

 

I'm glad to read this update! Let us know how things go.

[mommaduck]

I'm glad to hear things are working out :)