HomeAgain Posted March 31 Share Posted March 31 I know a kid who did some awful things, bad enough to get kicked out of the program he's in. There's no question he did them, or that they were wrong, or that safeguards against it were the equivalent of Willy Wonka saying "no....don't" from all adults involved except the parents of the other kids. He should be kicked out. It never should have gotten to that point if they had effective leadership or effective parenting. A combination would have been ideal. BUT The organization is a hot mess of donkey poo and isn't going about it the right way. They are not providing the child/parent the rights that are set forth by the governing body and the steps seem to be very muddled, giving a clear green light to the organization to let them sweep their part under the rug. I know this, because I have read every by-law and document that has been made available and what is happening is a blazing red flag. I can share the documents and information, and if it comes to light that the organization did not provide proper notification/list of rights to the child/parent, the child could be let back in and the same thing could happen again. I could not share the documents, the child/parent could find out anyway, and fight, and be let back in. If I tell the leadership (the very same two adults who enabled a toxic environment for ds, who we warned the organization about, and who are straight up ineffective again this year and leading this inquiry), they could change course now and get back on track according to the by-laws. I don't want the kid in and I don't want to open a dialogue with those two. Which is the lesser of two evils here? 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katy Posted March 31 Share Posted March 31 If the parents aren’t pushing back, it’s none of your business. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HomeAgain Posted March 31 Author Share Posted March 31 2 minutes ago, Katy said: If the parents aren’t pushing back, it’s none of your business. Thanks. The parent is feeling like they are being railroaded, but doesn't know it's not the correct procedure. They just think this is the way these things go when someone is kicked out. And also, this is the sort of thing that doesn't happen so it's rare enough that procedure is only on paper, not through anyone else's experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saraha Posted March 31 Share Posted March 31 Could you say “If you want to fight this, comb through the bylaws, there might be something there” and then let it go? You will have done your due diligence and left it in the hands of the parents 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartstrings Posted March 31 Share Posted March 31 The organization should be held accountable or it’s going to continue to act like this in the future. I might anonymously email, mail, or drop off the relevant documents with some sticky tabs and relevant parts highlighted. Short of the child having committed murder or a sexual assault I would probably come down more on holding the organization accountable than the kid. Especially because you said the kid is bearing all of the consequences and the school is sweeping their part under the rug. That just emboldens the organization to continue acting in this manner. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
City Mouse Posted March 31 Share Posted March 31 I think the organization has to act on the side of the other children who may be affected even if that means they did not follow their own policies exactly. Good for them. It is up to the aggressor’s family to fight that battle and I would stay out of it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted March 31 Share Posted March 31 Without knowing what the kid did, I don't know what to say, except that if he did things that put others in danger in some way, I would keep my mouth shut and let the kid get kicked out. If you said he was being unfairly accused, I would be all in favor of trying to help, but it doesn't sound like that's the case here at all. I don't think you have a responsibility to inform anyone about what you know. If the parents care enough, they will be able to find the same information that you have. Let them do their own research. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HomeAgain Posted March 31 Author Share Posted March 31 2 hours ago, saraha said: Could you say “If you want to fight this, comb through the bylaws, there might be something there” and then let it go? You will have done your due diligence and left it in the hands of the parents Thanks. I mulled over what you wrote and decided that's the most I could do, but I also don't want to encourage the fight. I just sent the papers to the family with "this is what you should expect in your interactions with them." If they get read, the parent/child will know. If not, everything was given to her (which is one of the things the organization was required to do to inform them of their rights). 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Innisfree Posted March 31 Share Posted March 31 If the child’s presence in the organization endangers other children, I would be more inclined to alert the negligent organization leaders to how things should be done. It seems to me that the safety of the children is the highest priority. I sympathize with wanting the child to have due process, but if he needs to leave the organization, the departure needs to be done effectively. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KSera Posted March 31 Share Posted March 31 (edited) 5 hours ago, HomeAgain said: If I tell the leadership ([…]), they could change course now and get back on track according to the by-laws. This seems the way to go if the goal is to make sure the kid can not rejoin the organization. eta: with information from the next post, it changes my opinion. I thought from OP that the behavior happening was dangerous. Is there any mechanism you can see that would only allow him back with the requirement that a parent (or other adult) be providing constant supervision and guidance? Edited March 31 by KSera 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kanin Posted March 31 Share Posted March 31 Is the organization run in a way that children or adults are in danger? If so, I think you have an obligation to ring the alarm bells. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HomeAgain Posted March 31 Author Share Posted March 31 17 minutes ago, Kanin said: Is the organization run in a way that children or adults are in danger? If so, I think you have an obligation to ring the alarm bells. Not in this case. The kid is obnoxious, but not dangerous. He's been on his "last warning" for a long while, and behavior has become worse and more colorful. It doesn't endanger anyone, he's just been a git with an active vocabulary and his parent/leadership don't do anything until it's ticking off the wrong people. If it had been my kid, there would have been immediate tomato staking so that there was very little leeway to be in a position to antagonize others or run his mouth. He would have been allowed to be in to do the activity with parent right there, leave immediately after without social time, 2-deep leadership in any part of the activity that required him to work with others. Any outburst or running his mouth would have led to a suspension for a week to help develop self control. There wouldn't have been the ability for several other parents to express their frustrations repeatedly about my child's unchecked behavior during the social time while I sat talking with friends and the leaders left them alone. On the flip side of concerns, this is a young teen who feels ostracized in many areas of his life, has an active imagination and fuel for his ideas, has parents with appreciation for weaponry, and is now losing the one activity that tolerated him and had mild aptitude with. The kid is not dangerous....right now. His life overall is not healthy. 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bolt. Posted March 31 Share Posted March 31 If possible, I might try sending an email to the "leaders" with a cold non-dialogue style info drop of the relevant bylaws, my reasons for sharing it (that you want the expulsion to be done correctly so it sticks) and a notification that I would be emailing the same exact information to the relevant kid's family on a certain date (giving enough time for them to get back on track, but not an excessive amount of time). Then maybe set up the email to auto-deliver on that date, and try to coldly turn down any replies, questions or opportunities to 'dialogue' with any of the parties. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SHP Posted April 1 Share Posted April 1 Reading your first post I got the impression the kid was a danger to others. Reading the follow up this is not the case. "Annoying" "obnoxious" "a git with an active vocabulary..." I have to admit that I am more appalled by an adult is speaking about a kid like you have than the idea of my kid being around a kid like you describe. Imagine being the kid. Rejected. Adults thinking you are a git. Why would he change his behavior? Yes, I have encountered children who behaved in ways I and my children found challenging to deal with. I spent a lot of time helping my children with boundaries, compassion, problem solving, and coping skills. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HomeAgain Posted April 1 Author Share Posted April 1 15 hours ago, SHP said: Reading your first post I got the impression the kid was a danger to others. Reading the follow up this is not the case. "Annoying" "obnoxious" "a git with an active vocabulary..." I have to admit that I am more appalled by an adult is speaking about a kid like you have than the idea of my kid being around a kid like you describe. Imagine being the kid. Rejected. Adults thinking you are a git. Why would he change his behavior? Yes, I have encountered children who behaved in ways I and my children found challenging to deal with. I spent a lot of time helping my children with boundaries, compassion, problem solving, and coping skills. You can think that I'm being hard on the kid, but I'm really not. He is not dangerous, but he has absorbed a lot of things he should not have and made the group a toxic environment to others. Calling him a git is much nicer than describing exactly what was being said by this child. I'm usually pretty easy going with other kids, and compassionate to everything they are dealing with. I cannot in good conscious minimize my reaction any more than I have. This is not within the pattern of 'challenging', this is bad. Ineffective adults around compounded the issue. Previous years he was challenging, but he had adult leadership that understood his social needs and worked as hard as they could to set firm, reasonable limits. Even that was not enough sometimes and he was on thin ice often, and I never remember a parent dealing with it in the moment, just reacting when they had to. This year they gave him to the two leaders that fostered a terrible environment for our ds two years go. To say I am shocked this is a hot mess with several parents raging mad would be a gross overstatement, but apparently we were the only ones who could see the writing on the wall. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKL Posted April 1 Share Posted April 1 "Hi, leader! So unfortunate about KidX and the position that puts the leaders in. I happened to be recently reading through the bylaws (section ___) and I noticed that there's a series of steps to follow in these circumstances. Just wanted to make sure you were aware of that. As sad as it is that KidX has to be disciplined, it seems best that the steps be followed so that things don't get revisited in the future. Let me know if you have questions for me, and thanks so much for all you do!" And then leave it be. If they choose a path that ends up being harder for them, it was their choice. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScoutTN Posted April 1 Share Posted April 1 @HomeAgain Sorry for the bad leadership! So frustrating! No fair to the other boys/families. I guess it’s not surprising that leaders who are not supervising and leading well would not follow through on official discipline procedures correctly. Similar things contributed to my Ds dropping out of a similar organization. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScoutTN Posted April 1 Share Posted April 1 1 minute ago, SKL said: "Hi, leader! So unfortunate about KidX and the position that puts the leaders in. I happened to be recently reading through the bylaws (section ___) and I noticed that there's a series of steps to follow in these circumstances. Just wanted to make sure you were aware of that. As sad as it is that KidX has to be disciplined, it seems best that the steps be followed so that things don't get revisited in the future. Let me know if you have questions for me, and thanks so much for all you do!" And then leave it be. If they choose a path that ends up being harder for them, it was their choice. Cc’d to the next level up? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HomeAgain Posted April 1 Author Share Posted April 1 7 minutes ago, ScoutTN said: @HomeAgain Sorry for the bad leadership! So frustrating! No fair to the other boys/families. I guess it’s not surprising that leaders who are not supervising and leading well would not follow through on official discipline procedures correctly. Similar things contributed to my Ds dropping out of a similar organization. You hit it on the nose with the not supervising/leading well/following procedure. It's a rot that is enabled up through the organization because of the relationships of people going back generations. It's really not fair to the other kids. They're a mixed group of boys and girls and some have never had the experience of either these adults in charge or this child, so to get them all in a fell swoop must have been a little like falling through the looking glass. Oh, plus the kids ds dealt with still there, so it's just one big ball of fun that made the party swing. The number of stories I heard this year could be written into a bestseller. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HomeAgain Posted April 1 Author Share Posted April 1 1 hour ago, ScoutTN said: Cc’d to the next level up? No. That would not be a logical move. He has no capacity to understand his legal obligations and impact. The organization had 24 hours to ensure they followed procedure due to the time constraints imposed by the regulation. That time has passed, so if they did not, they cannot fulfill their obligation at this time unless the parents agree to the delay. I feel okay with what I ended up doing. It was morally neutral. We'll see how it goes. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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