Opinions please

[Scarlett]

We saw our grandson this weekend for the first time in months. He and our son spent the night Sunday. 
 

Dgs is not quite 3 1/2. His speech is much improved. He greeted me excitedly ‘Mimi!’ I am pretty sure that is the first time he has said my name although it has been obvious he knows my name and dhs name for a long time. He says  Papa with a cute little twist at the end that makes him sound French. Just adorable. 
 

Our ds27 is overwhelmed and is not handling things well. I have a lot of thoughts in that and how it is affecting our dgs but there is one particular thing dgs is doing that I find peculiar. Maybe it is common but I have never seen it.  He will want his dad who then picks him up, and then as dgs is in his arms or lap he will say ‘repeatedly I want dada’. 
 

Ds27 gets very frustrated. 
 

Have any of you witnessed similar behavior? Dies it mean anything g or is it just his attempt to emotionally regulate himself?

Edited January 23 by Scarlett

[scholastica]

Can anyone tell what he means by that? He may be trying to express that he is happy that he has dada, and not have the words for it yet. If he’s not looking for someone else, I would take it that way.

[SKL]

Is it possible that "dada" means something else in addition to father?

I would advise your son to respond to the tot similar to this:  "you want dada?  You like dada?  You like sitting on dada's lap?  What shall we do next?  Want to read a book with dada? ...."

Basically say back what he seems to be trying to communicate.  Once the tot feels understood, he may stop saying the same thing over and over.

That said ... it could also be a sign of autism if he keeps repeating things that don't seem to make sense.  Did you say he was being evaluated?

[JustEm]

My almost 4 year old does this.  She call for needing me even after she is in my arms.  She repeats herself other times too.  It is always associated with her in a distressed state and stops once she calms herself down.

Not all of my kids did this but many did

[Scarlett]

2 minutes ago, scholastica said:

Can anyone tell what he means by that? He may be trying to express that he is happy that he has dada, and not have the words for it yet. If he’s not looking for someone else, I would take it that way.

I definitely feel like he is where he wants to be when he’s saying that. And it is not always I want dad. There are other situations where he repeats a thing, even when he has the thing.

[Scarlett]

3 minutes ago, hjffkj said:

My almost 4 year old does this.  She call for needing me even after she is in my arms.  She repeats herself other times too.  It is always associated with her in a distressed state and stops once she calms herself down.

Not all of my kids did this but many did

Ok this is good to know. 

[Momto6inIN]

My 4 year old frequently says, "Mommy, I want you!" even when she's on my lap or otherwise getting my attention. Usually it's her expressing a desire for more closeness and comfort with the only words she has for that need.

She doesn't say it repeatedly though.

[Katy]

My child with autism is 5 and she still sometimes does this.

[catz]

I think this isn't unusual for a kid that is still finding words and is working on emotional regulation to default to say the closest thing that comes out easily.  Maybe it means, I want to cuddle with dad on the couch and watch a movie or read a book.  Can he fluently speak multiple sentances in a row typically?  

I remember my kids when they were little saying something like "I want water" and when I would hand it to them they might whine and say it again.  But maybe what they wanted was the red sippy with the straw and the water set on the coffee table.  Which if you're parenting 24-7, you just get to know your kid's perferences and there may be less frustration.   How much time does dad spend with him?  Maybe mom is just naturally better at interpreting his desires if she is spending more awake time with him.  

[Scarlett]

He has way too much chaos in his life. 
 

He was thriving on my calmness. Sitting in my lap listening me when I directed him in some way.,

Ds27 expressed that he (ds27) is very angry and not coping. We talked some about concrete ways to deal with it. As usual he shoots a lot of it down but I try to remember what @bolt. and others have said… that he is listening even when it appears he is not. 

[Scarlett]

4 minutes ago, catz said:

I think this isn't unusual for a kid that is still finding words and is working on emotional regulation to default to say the closest thing that comes out easily.  Maybe it means, I want to cuddle with dad on the couch and watch a movie or read a book.  Can he fluently speak multiple sentances in a row typically?  

I remember my kids when they were little saying something like "I want water" and when I would hand it to them they might whine and say it again.  But maybe what they wanted was the red sippy with the straw and the water set on the coffee table.  Which if you're parenting 24-7, you just get to know your kid's perferences and there may be less frustration.   How much time does dad spend with him?  Maybe mom is just naturally better at interpreting his desires if she is spending more awake time with him.  

Their current schedule is ds has him 4 nights and mom three. Ds has him all weekend every weekend and the mom watches him during the day while ds works. 

[SKL]

What is your son angry about?  Something to do with his son or something else?

[Scarlett]

22 minutes ago, SKL said:

What is your son angry about?  Something to do with his son or something else?

Not his son. Just life I guess. His wife and how she has abandoned him twice now to run off with other men: 

He is exhausted. Smokes, doesn’t eat right etc. 

[sassenach]

My grandson repeats himself until you say the sentence back to him. I think it's just a language acquisition quirk. He's a bit younger, though.

[Scarlett]

3 hours ago, sassenach said:

My grandson repeats himself until you say the sentence back to him. I think it's just a language acquisition quirk. He's a bit younger, though.

Repeating it back to him doesn’t seem to solve it. 
He is also still a screamer but I think that is better. He seems to get himself under control faster with some adult intervention…. I saw right away that firm matter of fact ‘stop screaming. Use your words and tell me what you want’ works really well. 
 

When I asked if the evaluation had been done ds said the mom told him the doctor wants to wait until he is 4. I don’t believe that is accurate. 🤷🏻‍♀️ I did not say so though. 
 

We have suggested to him that he might want to move to our small town where the school system is better than the city. Age wise dgs should qualify for preschool this coming fall.  Ds would have us for back up support. And ds’s mom lives closer to us than she does to where he currently is in the city.  He doesn’t think it is a bad idea… he just doesn’t know how to accomplish it. 

[SKL]

15 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

When I asked if the evaluation had been done ds said the mom told him the doctor wants to wait until he is 4. I don’t believe that is accurate. 🤷🏻‍♀️ I did not say so though.

At least he's getting close to the 4yo benchmark.

He may currently qualify for an "Early Intervention" evaluation and/or HeadStart.

[Scarlett]

22 minutes ago, SKL said:

At least he's getting close to the 4yo benchmark.

He may currently qualify for an "Early Intervention" evaluation and/or HeadStart.

A quick Google tells me he makes too much money for OK Head Start. 
 

My thinking they need a diagnosis or lack of in place now before pre school age. It might qualify him for extra help in preschool. 

[Bambam]

In our area (TX), some Early Childhood intervention group (name is slightly different in different counties) will come to your home and evaluate 3 yo and under to see if they are meeting milestones/need help/therapy/etc. I expressed my concern about my youngest's lack of understandable words, so she set up that evaluation process. They came weekly to our home to provide speech therapy until she aged out of the in-home stuff. I could have arranged to take her to the local public school for more free help, but that free help was A in a public school (so take along the older child) and B have therapy with a group of other children that also need help (so I did not think it would be as effective as individual therapy). But this stuff was all free - regardless of your income level. 

[PeterPan]

One of the biggest mistakes we made early on was not getting in the EI system. There is a whole cascade of good things that happen when you ask for help and get in the system. Also, it's still taking a LONG TIME to get evals, so it's foolish to wait. No doctor would say to wait till 4 if he had full information. If your ds moves, where would the dc enroll? For the child's sake, I would get the dc into one school district that can offer good services and use whatever energy he has to advocate in the IEP process. 

Not to be nasty, but it sounds like this mother is on some kind of other planet. Who doesn't get their kid EI evals with this kind of obvious stuff going on?? I'm sorry your ds is having to deal with his own emotions. I would just be very matter of fact. The dc needs evals, the dc needs EI and to begin ps preschool/intervention. Maybe with that stability, your ds will have some mental space to deal with his own trauma without also being worried about his child.

[SKL]

22 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

A quick Google tells me he makes too much money for OK Head Start. 
 

My thinking they need a diagnosis or lack of in place now before pre school age. It might qualify him for extra help in preschool. 

Early Intervention (or whatever they call it in Oklahoma) is free regardless of income level.  They will come to your house to do a free evaluation, but it is only for kids 3yo and under.  I haven't used EI, but I think it's helpful for the transition to the school system / IEP also.  (If an IEP is deemed needed, free public school services are supposed to start at 3yo.)

[Scarlett]

Thanks everyone.  It is called Sooner Start in OK and I just sent the link to ds. 

[Scarlett]

He said thank you so that’s good!

[PeterPan]

9 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

He said thank you so that’s good!

He seemed kind of disempowered by what is going on with the mother, but in the IEP and EI process he's going to have rights. Hope he can push and make things happen!

[Scarlett]

2 hours ago, PeterPan said:

He seemed kind of disempowered by what is going on with the mother, but in the IEP and EI process he's going to have rights. Hope he can push and make things happen!

They haven’t filed for divorce.  I doubt she will.  I told him he could move to our town and file for divorce and establish this county over their divorce.  It is really a shame that she is not working and refuses to see to these things.  

Edited January 24 by Scarlett

[SKL]

Looks like SoonerStart is only through age 35 months.  But starting at age 3, he should be entitled to evaluation and services from the school system.

[Clarita]

1 hour ago, Scarlett said:

He is also still a screamer but I think that is better. He seems to get himself under control faster with some adult intervention…. I saw right away that firm matter of fact ‘stop screaming. Use your words and tell me what you want’ works really well. 

I wish I read The Explosive Child much earlier. Even just the intro, first chapter. It help to flip my thinking from my child is mis-behaving to he's trying to get a result but he doesn't know the socially acceptable way to do it really helped me not to get so angry over it.

[Scarlett]

7 minutes ago, Clarita said:

I wish I read The Explosive Child much earlier. Even just the intro, first chapter. It help to flip my thinking from my child is mis-behaving to he's trying to get a result but he doesn't know the socially acceptable way to do it really helped me not to get so angry over it.

Agree. I tried to gently point that out to him. He said he tried not spanking but it did not work. I said, ‘do you really want him to fear you?’ Ds27’s frustration is at a boiling point.  I told him I know he is under great stress and he is worn out.  That is one reason I got on the topic of self care. So that he can care for his son. 

[Scarlett]

39 minutes ago, SKL said:

Looks like SoonerStart is only through age 35 months.  But starting at age 3, he should be entitled to evaluation and services from the school system.

Oh I thought it said through age three.  

[Scarlett]

What are your thoughts about potty training? He apparently isn’t ……we don’t see him enough to know what is going on.

At one point when ds27 was outside dgs stood straight up and started screaming.  From his Posture I figured he was poopy. I asked him to stop screaming so I could clean him up.  He did quit screaming but he was sobbing, in apparent distress . I kept talking calmly and reassuring him.  Turns out he was just wet. I have never seen such a reaction to a wet or dirty diaper. 

[Scarlett]

His mom and newest boyfriend let him watch some zombie fighting game on YouTube. I expressed horror at that and said that is terrible for a child.  Then I saw it or something similar on dgs tablet….when dgs came and sat in my lap with that pulled up I just said, no we aren’t watching that.  That is not nice.  And I found something good to watch.  Beyond the ick factor I explained to ds27 that dgs is very overstimulated….and I focused on turning off one media before starting another.  Returning one toy to the toy box before getting another.  

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, Scarlett said:

spanking

Oh my. Now I'm *not* anti spanking at all. However with this particular dc, it's probably making the situation worse. Spanking requires inference (I don't like what happens when I do this so I won't do it any more) and understanding cause/effect. This dc, from what you've described, probably gets neither. https://www.amazon.com/Stop-That-Seemingly-Senseless-Behavior/dp/1890627763/ref=sr_1_1?crid=KZYMGA9HYEC3&keywords=stop+that+seemingly+senseless+behavior&qid=1706067199&sprefix=stop+that+seemin%2Caps%2C103&sr=8-1  I'm not sure why this book is saying it's unavailable. It used to be an inexpensive kindle download, like $8, and it is super short, a super fast read. It tells you how to look for the function of the behavior so you can respond appropriately.

1 hour ago, Scarlett said:

. I have never seen such a reaction to a wet or dirty diaper. 

This is the kind of stuff to talk with the EI people about when they come for the intake. Fwiw, I would actually take some comfort in the extreme reaction, because it means he *is* feeling it, even though he's overwhelmed. As you say, he's got a lot in his world right now that is overloading his system. My ds used to wet repeatedly from stress when we tried spanking him. We stopped. It was what we had been taught as right in our church, but it was physically not right for him, not instructive, and in his case actually harmful. And it's VERY HARD to have a child who is hard to work with anyway and lose that common tool. It gets really hard for a while and makes you look like a bad parent. But we couldn't deny the profound dissettling effects it had on his system.

You might think about sensory things that are CALMING. Could you get him a weighted blanket? Weighted teddy bear? Weight is super calming. They make toddler size weighted blankets that are very light, maybe 6-8 pounds. They're usually going to say to go for 10%, but often people will go heavier, up to 20%. If the weight is a fuzz heavy, just use it for less time. So you can try it during the night or you can try it for a brief window like a nap. 

 

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, Scarlett said:

Oh I thought it said through age three.  

Yeah, around here it's through age three. It creates the feeder system that gets them the push for the IEP, preschool services, etc. Delaying just slows down that access. There can be waits for private evals, so he really needs to tell himself to make this happen. Normally a mother, statistically, makes these things happen for her dc, even when things are tight. It really seems like she is distracted by her personal problems (drugs??) and not attending to her dc at all. 

Ok, so I'll throw this out and you can say you would never do it. You could call your county social services. Maybe it would end horribly or maybe it would be the additional help your ds needs to get things to a better place. In our state they are very bent toward keeping kids with families and helping the families get on track, so it *might* go well. I don't know honestly. It might give some documentation for the (negligence?) of bio mom, which your ds is going to need to protect his ds. 

If your ds is too down with his own challenges to help the dc AND the bio mom is negligent, I'd be looking for ways to intervene like that. But I wouldn't do that if your ds can reach out and grasp the help that is available. I hope he can. 

[Scarlett]

We certainly would intervene if we felt it would be best.  I don’t think we are to that point.  No where near.  Ds27 needs support.  
 

I don’t really believe in spanking anymore…..sometimes I feel meh about it, but usually the kids who actually get spanked are the ones who it helps the least.  I feel sure dgs falls into that category.  

[PeterPan]

Can he get access to the medical account for dgs? It would be interesting to confirm whether the dc actually sees the doctor. 

[SKL]

3 hours ago, Scarlett said:

What are your thoughts about potty training? He apparently isn’t ……we don’t see him enough to know what is going on.

At one point when ds27 was outside dgs stood straight up and started screaming.  From his Posture I figured he was poopy. I asked him to stop screaming so I could clean him up.  He did quit screaming but he was sobbing, in apparent distress . I kept talking calmly and reassuring him.  Turns out he was just wet. I have never seen such a reaction to a wet or dirty diaper. 

I've seen tots react that way to wetting when they were at potty-training age.  I think it's a common reaction to being super disappointed at their own mistake.  If that's what it is, it wouldn't worry me.

At his age, I'd assume he's in potty training when his parent(s) are able to watch him closely or when the stakes of an accident aren't high, but they diaper him when they go out, rather than worry about it.  But he's to the age of not feeling OK with a wet diaper, which is not a bad thing IMO.  It seems likely that he'll be trained pretty soon.

[Scarlett]

6 hours ago, SKL said:

I've seen tots react that way to wetting when they were at potty-training age.  I think it's a common reaction to being super disappointed at their own mistake.  If that's what it is, it wouldn't worry me.

At his age, I'd assume he's in potty training when his parent(s) are able to watch him closely or when the stakes of an accident aren't high, but they diaper him when they go out, rather than worry about it.  But he's to the age of not feeling OK with a wet diaper, which is not a bad thing IMO.  It seems likely that he'll be trained pretty soon.

I agree being able to express discomfort in a wet diaper is a good sign he is ready to potty train.  I have just never seen that extreme of a reaction.   It probably goes right back to him not having the words to convey it adequately so he reverts to screaming. 

[PeterPan]

12 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

words

Kelly Mahler is doing work on how to teach interoception (awareness and communication skills) with early learners. https://www.kelly-mahler.com/product/interoception-early-learners/

Her full curriculum has 3 different language levels, including a set that is for non-verbal/pre-verbal/non-readers. So at the jist, I'm suggesting that the person who has the mental space to work on it can do things like this, picking some appropriate vocabulary and creating visual tools to help him communicate. He probably doesn't actually need a lot of words, and you might be able to find some free printables for this age. 

https://autismlittlelearners.com/free-toileting-sequence/ Here's something with the sequencing but what I was hoping to find was something with the FEELINGS. (need to poop, need to pee, wet, ouch, whatever) 

another free resource https://www.autismspeaks.org/expert-opinion/seven-toilet-training-tips-help-nonverbal-kids-autism

Edited January 24 by PeterPan