Hive thoughts: CC, Sunday School

[KSera]

1 hour ago, BronzeTurtle said:

 

The bolded necessarily means that the only people who would know about these symbols are the people who are using them nefariously and those who are studying the conspiracy to use them nefariously.

I know someone said it like it was covert, but I would make no argument whatsoever that this use of the flag is covert or secret knowledge in any way. You can read hundreds of articles discussing the evolving meaning of the Gadsden flag. As I said earlier, before Trump was even president there was a court case with a worker claiming racist harrassment due to a coworker wearing the flag. This isn't brand new and secret knowledge. If someone newly starts flying the flag over their house as of the past couple years? It's unlikely they just randomly saw the flag and decided to put it up with no idea what it meant. Would you put up a random flat without knowing what it meant? There's a range of things they might be trying to project, but "I love the American Revolution" is unlikely to be the primary one. A coffee cup isn't as strong a message, but it's not strange that one would wonder given what the flag tends to most often represent currently.

40 minutes ago, Grace Hopper said:

Read carefully. I have nowhere said that the Gadsden flag (or any other symbol) is EXCLUSIVELY now a symbol for white racist insurrectionists. I have called out its association with violence and have intended to show throughout this conversation that there is a reason for people to see that flag displayed and be given cause to wonder about the intent under which it’s being displayed. 

How do we know? We have information gathering conversations. If you didn’t read my earlier posts in this thread, I’ll ask you to do so now. I’ve not taken the stand of making erroneous, automatic conclusions. What I have advocated for - and my apologies if I’ve not been clear about this, much as I’ve tried to be - is that it is (imo) important to educate ourselves about our current cultural moment. A knowledge base for effective communication is the only way we (collectively, as a nation) will ever be able to move forward through our crisis moments. 
 

This is very well said. This sums up my position in this thread as well.

27 minutes ago, BronzeTurtle said:

I think this is a way to go through life with a huge amount of anxiety that isn't terribly conducive to living normally. I gather this is the idea though: anyone could be wanting to kill you at any moment, and they are displaying possibly covert symbols to indicate such, and if you see any of the coded symbols you need to be on guard.

If we were to examine how often something like that actually presents a danger to any given individual it would be a minuscule problem but online it gets amplified and distilled into a concentrate of scariness until a guy can't have a sticker on a mug. You are seeing a sticker and saying, well, maybe, possibly we have to consider the guy to be an armed, violent bigot. He may not be that, but we at least have to consider it because of his sticker.

It reads exactly like QAnon stuff about child sex trafficking or whatever else they are onto. It's all out there just under the surface and if you discover it you can't not see the dog whistles everywhere. You could almost switch out the pertinent terminology word for word and just leave the generic conspiracy bits and then you have two groups of people wandering the world waiting to get jumped by the other and thinking they are the most horrible people on earth. Or maybe not, but they could be so you have to be ready to fight or flight.

Nope, nope. None of what you say is what I'm saying or meaning. If someone displays a KKK symbol, people may have reason to be concerned, right? If someone flies a Nazi flag, that might reasonably be intimidating to some other people, right? If someone is an Alex Jones listening, Gadsden flag flying, Get Off My Property, Far Right Winger, there are people who will reasonably want to avoid that person. Mostly it's not going to be violence, but it doesn't have to be violent to be harmful. And sometimes it will be violent. There's the mom in California that was killed last week for flying a pride flag. A transgender young person I know was violently targeted.

A church life group is supposed to be a space that feels safe for someone to be open and vulnerable. It's not unreasonable someone might not feel like a group is a good fit if there is someone who might not be a good person to be that way around. And they may or may not prefer to just find a different group than ask. It's up to them. If we're talking about going through a line at a checkout store with someone using that mug, that's a different thing. This is being in a life group at church with someone.

5 minutes ago, BronzeTurtle said:

So those people. I don't have time to be replying as I am right now much less to go back and quote everyone who said they'd just leave the church or the class or avoid the man over it. We can go with semantics and say no one directly said the above, but if you're willing to shun someone over it, leave a church over it, without even addressing the issue out of fear of that symbol you'd have to be pretty committed to saying it is white supremacy or racism exclusively, otherwise you're shunning a dude who didn't commit that actual sin.

It's the fact that the church does not accept gay marriages that I've seen people say they would leave over, given OPs teen daughter is gay. The mug was a separate issue. Overall, most people found the anti gay marriage thing to be the more important thing than the guy with the flag mug, but then someone wanted to know why the flag mug would be a "red flag" and here we are.

[Catwoman]

7 minutes ago, chiguirre said:

It's not from the Ringo Starr song, it's a joke about the Second Civil War referencing Breakin 2: Electric Boogaloo. The proponents of a Civil War 2.0 started putting igloo patches on their tactical vests (think Proud Boys, Oathkeepers, III%ers, if these don't ring a bell for you, google them, it's important). Then they flipped the igloo to a tropical theme and started using Hawaiian shirts as identifiers. Here's an image from Wikipedia, but the Wall Street Journal and New York Times also have pictures of militia types in Hawaiian shirts.

Ok, if one of these guys was the Mug Guy from Sunday school, I retract everything I posted! 😉 

[KSera]

It's bizarre that some people are so invested in defending this flag. Does it have some personal significance that makes it important enough that it doesn't matter how it comes across to other people? I'm just wondering what makes it so important to people considering it went like 300 years of not being used.

Here's a picture from a prominent rally in North Carolina. I'm going to post only the link and not the picture due to the content: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gadsden_flag#/media/File:Charlottesville_"Unite_the_Right"_Rally_(35780276094).jpg

This is not some secret hidden meaning.

[Catwoman]

9 minutes ago, KSera said:

It's bizarre that some people are so invested in defending this flag. Does it have some personal significance that makes it important enough that it doesn't matter how it comes across to other people? I'm just wondering what makes it so important to people considering it went like 300 years of not being used.

Here's a picture from a prominent rally in North Carolina. I'm going to post only the link and not the picture due to the content: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gadsden_flag#/media/File:Charlottesville_"Unite_the_Right"_Rally_(35780276094).jpg

This is not some secret hidden meaning.

I don’t think most people are defending that flag; at least I know I’m not. 

I think what many people are saying is that a lot of people don’t realize the negative connotations of that flag, so we shouldn’t judge anyone as being a racist or a white nationalist based on nothing more than an image on a mug at church Sunday school.

Edited August 31, 2023 by Catwoman
My autocorrect is in a mood!

[KSera]

2 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

I think what many people are saying is that a lot of people don’t realize the negative connotations of that flag

I'm seeing that. For people who aren't flying it or wearing it, I totally buy that. I think it's less likely that someone who chooses to specifically display it has no idea what it might mean though. I would leave open the possibility that the guy got it in the early 2000s as a Tea Partier and that's all it is, but without knowing more, I wouldn't be opening up about anything personal with the guy.

[Catwoman]

3 minutes ago, KSera said:

I'm seeing that. For people who aren't flying it or wearing it, I totally buy that. I think it's less likely that someone who chooses to specifically display it has no idea what it might mean though. I would leave open the possibility that the guy got it in the early 2000s as a Tea Partier and that's all it is, but without knowing more, I wouldn't be opening up about anything personal with the guy.

Oh, I agree with you — I wouldn’t be opening up about anything personal with the guy, either, mainly because I don’t talk about personal things with strangers or casual acquaintances, but especially if it was something that made me suspicious of him. 

When I said that I would talk to the guy, I meant that I would engage him in casual conversation and see what came of it. Most of the people I know who hold extreme views seem to be pretty quick to want to discuss them, or to at least hint around to see if I was a receptive audience.

[Idalou]

2 hours ago, TravelingChris said:

.  And that was one march at night where it makes sense if you are marching at night to have some light.

Of course! It's totally dark in the city where they gathered, so their first thought was to grab their tikis! I know I always light mine and carry it when I walk my dog after dark.

Come on, get real. These angry imbeciles were coordinated, came from all over the country, and were supposedly ready to kick some butts. They wanted to scare people by acting like an angry mob from Frankenstein. And by the end of the next evening their ilk had murdered a young women by driving into a crowd. 

Flashlights, anyone???

 

[Heartstrings]

31 minutes ago, KSera said:

It's bizarre that some people are so invested in defending this flag. Does it have some personal significance that makes it important enough that it doesn't matter how it comes across to other people? I'm just wondering what makes it so important to people considering it went like 300 years of not being used.

Here's a picture from a prominent rally in North Carolina. I'm going to post only the link and not the picture due to the content: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gadsden_flag#/media/File:Charlottesville_"Unite_the_Right"_Rally_(35780276094).jpg

This is not some secret hidden meaning.

It is very strange. 

[BronzeTurtle]

12 minutes ago, KSera said:

It's bizarre that some people are so invested in defending this flag. Does it have some personal significance that makes it important enough that it doesn't matter how it comes across to other people? I'm just wondering what makes it so important to people considering it went like 300 years of not being used.

Here's a picture from a prominent rally in North Carolina. I'm going to post only the link and not the picture due to the content: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gadsden_flag#/media/File:Charlottesville_"Unite_the_Right"_Rally_(35780276094).jpg

This is not some secret hidden meaning.

What a time to be alive and reading an education board. a historical American symbol during the founding but who cares, let the nazis have it and be done with it. So bizarre people don't want the nazis to own American symbolism.

oh man.

on that note, I gotta sign off this thread.

[chiguirre]

2 hours ago, TravelingChris said:

Well I saw the tiki torches but they all wore white shirts. Nothing with Hawaiian shirts.  And that was one march at night where it makes sense if you are marching at night to have some light.

And I think that unlike tiki torches or Gadsden Flags or Hawaiian shirts, both Nazis and Confederates were in power.  So of course, their symbols can be much closely related to their beliefs.  There is no belief system about a tiki torch.

Have you ever seen Triumph of the Will by Leni Riefenstahl? They're referencing Hitler's torchlight processions. 

[TexasProud]

1 minute ago, Heartstrings said:

It is very strange. 

Again. Not defending the flag.  I am taking issue over jumping to conclusions over a mug. It would be easy to figure it out by asking a few  discreet questions and/or listening to him talk. But the mug wouldn't make me jump there.  I am not defending that flag at all. Not going to fly it.  Just not sure everyone knows what it means. Before this conversation, I certainly didn't. 

That said, for the OP, the issue isn't the guy with the mug. It is the overall belief system of the church itself that will probably be problematic for her. 

[TravelingChris]

46 minutes ago, chiguirre said:

It's not from the Ringo Starr song, it's a joke about the Second Civil War referencing Breakin 2: Electric Boogaloo. The proponents of a Civil War 2.0 started putting igloo patches on their tactical vests (think Proud Boys, Oathkeepers, III%ers, if these don't ring a bell for you, google them, it's important). Then they flipped the igloo to a tropical theme and started using Hawaiian shirts as identifiers. Here's an image from Wikipedia, but the Wall Street Journal and New York Times also have pictures of militia types in Hawaiian shirts.

Yes, but these guys are armed and wearing camouflage.  And while I don't like Proud Boys and Oathkeepers, etc , I see no reason at all that you should be afraid of my dh wearing a Hawaiian shirt with his jeans or pants or shorts and not in a group but doing something like going to church, a restaurant, a store, a concert, etc. U can barely see their Hawaiian shirts.

 

[Idalou]

16 minutes ago, chiguirre said:

Have you ever seen Triumph of the Will by Leni Riefenstahl? They're referencing Hitler's torchlight processions. 

Oh my lord. I thought they were just being an angry mob of stupid villagers. 

[TravelingChris]

35 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

Oh, I agree with you — I wouldn’t be opening up about anything personal with the guy, either, mainly because I don’t talk about personal things with strangers or casual acquaintances, but especially if it was something that made me suspicious of him. 

When I said that I would talk to the guy, I meant that I would engage him in casual conversation and see what came of it. Most of the people I know who hold extreme views seem to be pretty quick to want to discuss them, or to at least hint around to see if I was a receptive audience.

That is what I have noticed too. 

[Idalou]

17 minutes ago, TravelingChris said:

Yes, but these guys are armed and wearing camouflage.  And while I don't like Proud Boys and Oathkeepers, etc , I see no reason at all that you should be afraid of my dh wearing a Hawaiian shirt with his jeans or pants or shorts and not in a group but doing something like going to church, a restaurant, a store, a concert, etc. U can barely see their Hawaiian shirts.

 

You keep missing the whole point. Wearing a Hawaiian shirt doesn't equate to being a Boogaloo Boy, but that those in the movement wear them a a way to identify with each other. They're basically pro-gun and anti-gov't. Some are neo Nazis, some are anti-black, but mainly just the gun-gov't stuff. They're definitely capable and willing to be violent. You can google them for details of you care to know more.

[Idalou]

27 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

It is very strange. 

Not really. They're being coy. Like those that swear they fly the Confederate flag because of Southern pride, or those that think there can be no racism since we had a black president, or those that claim they are raising their kids to be color blind to people's skin colors. 

[TravelingChris]

34 minutes ago, Idalou said:

Of course! It's totally dark in the city where they gathered, so their first thought was to grab their tikis! I know I always light mine and carry it when I walk my dog after dark.

Come on, get real. These angry imbeciles were coordinated, came from all over the country, and were supposedly ready to kick some butts. They wanted to scare people by acting like an angry mob from Frankenstein. And by the end of the next evening their ilk had murdered a young women by driving into a crowd. 

Flashlights, anyone???

 

Oh, I agree that they wanted to look frightening.  Not disagreeing with that at all.  I wasn't meaning that they randomly picked up anything. It was co-ordinated.

I am not an apologist for the people shouting anti_Jewish remarks.  I am not a fan of Alex Jones.  I am not a fan of Proud Boys or Oathkeepers.  I am not a fan of Sovereign Citizens.   

But is that what we have to become nowadays?  Saying all the groups you aren't affiliated with ?  

Because not here, but in the big world, there seem to be a number of people who just want to dismiss 50% of the voters as racists- not sue why since my party has become increasingly diversified.  And I know that isn't just a one-sided problem-- I hear people on the right who dismiss everyone on the left.

Also, beats me why some people suggest that libertarians are automatically racist too- That was a comment I heard last year that equated  White Supremacists and Libertarians.

[Heartstrings]

2 minutes ago, Idalou said:

Not really. They're being coy. Like those that swear they fly the Confederate flag because of Southern pride, or those that think there can be no racism since we had a black president, or those that claim they are raising their kids to be color blind to people's skin colors. 

That’s a good way to put it, I couldn’t quite articulate it.  

[TravelingChris]

31 minutes ago, chiguirre said:

Have you ever seen Triumph of the Will by Leni Riefenstahl? They're referencing Hitler's torchlight processions. 

No.  I generally don't like watching Nazi stuff.  I specifically skipped a few books last year on book club because they were WW2 books. So no I didn't know anything about Hitler's torchlight procession.s.

I am Polish-American and my parents were both in Poland during WW2, ended up in Soviet Gulag, then joined the army against the fascists. I know a lot of history but never read Mein Kampf or watched any of Leni Riefenstahl's movies.

[KSera]

1 hour ago, Catwoman said:

Oh, I agree with you — I wouldn’t be opening up about anything personal with the guy, either, mainly because I don’t talk about personal things with strangers or casual acquaintances, but especially if it was something that made me suspicious of him. 

When I said that I would talk to the guy, I meant that I would engage him in casual conversation and see what came of it. Most of the people I know who hold extreme views seem to be pretty quick to want to discuss them, or to at least hint around to see if I was a receptive audience.

I don't recall if you are a church goer, and maybe life groups means different things at different churches, but in my world, they are people you are "doing life with" and you share closely with them. They wouldn't be a group where it would work well to not be able to open up about anything personal. If this was some random other guy at church, it wouldn't be an issue in the same way.

53 minutes ago, TravelingChris said:

I see no reason at all that you should be afraid of my dh wearing a Hawaiian shirt

Nobody is afraid of your dh in a Hawaiian shirt. Or mine, for that matter. I think the Hawaiian shirt thing has been a diversion that confuses things. No one is generally feeling afraid of random people wearing Hawaiian shirts. A mob of people in Hawaiian shirts and tactical gear? Then that's a different vibe.

[TravelingChris]

15 minutes ago, Idalou said:

You keep missing the whole point. Wearing a Hawaiian shirt doesn't equate to being a Boogaloo Boy, but that those in the movement wear them a a way to identify with each other. They're basically pro-gun and anti-gov't. Some are neo Nazis, some are anti-black, but mainly just the gun-gov't stuff. They're definitely capable and willing to be violent. You can google them for details of you care to know more.

Lots of people own guns.  Lots of people are upset with the government at any given time. And that has just risen with things like Vaccine mandates (and I got vaccinated, as did my entire family), mask mandates, closings, etc.  Then all the stuff about the govt pressuring Twitter, Facebook, Google, etc.,  to delete posts and information and I could go on and on with bad govt conduct.  But while millions think parts of the government are doing wrong things or incompetent things, only a very few people actually do bad stuff like send threats to people or, even worse, try to shoot people.  

[TravelingChris]

1 minute ago, KSera said:

I don't recall if you are a church goer, and maybe life groups means different things at different churches, but in my world, they are people you are "doing life with" and you share closely with them. They wouldn't be a group where it would work well to not be able to open up about anything personal. If this was some random other guy at church, it wouldn't be an issue in the same way.

Nobody is afraid of your dh in a Hawaiian shirt. Or mine, for that matter. I think the Hawaiian shirt thing has been a diversion that confuses things. No one is generally feeling afraid of random people wearing Hawaiian shirts. A mob of people in Hawaiian shirts and tactical gear? Then that's a different vibe.

A mob of people wearing anything and tactical gear or baseball bats (not on a baseball field) or some other weapons would worry me.

Also, those mobs that are attacking stores and stealing all the expensive stuff.  I am very happy it hasn't spread to my state yet.

[Heartstrings]

About the dumb hawaiin shirts.  

Obligatory NOT ALL WEARERS OF HAWAIIN SHIRTS ARE BOOGALOO BOYS for all the good it will do. 

 

There's actually a lot of information in this article about the symbols used, how they use absurd symbols and why, if anyone is interested.  

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/29/style/boogaloo-hawaiian-shirt.html

 

Edited August 31, 2023 by Heartstrings

[Catwoman]

7 minutes ago, KSera said:

I don't recall if you are a church goer, and maybe life groups means different things at different churches, but in my world, they are people you are "doing life with" and you share closely with them. They wouldn't be a group where it would work well to not be able to open up about anything personal. If this was some random other guy at church, it wouldn't be an issue in the same way.

No, I am not a church goer and I have never even heard of “life groups.”  The OP mentioned Sunday school, but IIRC, there was no mention in that post of having to open up about highly personal things in class, so I hadn’t considered that. But if that’s the kind of class the OP attended, wouldn’t the Mug Guy have participated? I got the impression that the OP had no idea what he was like, but that she was aware that he was a long-standing member of the class.

The main thing that struck me in that first post was that even the OP’s dh didn’t seem at all alarmed. He thought she was stereotyping the guy with the mug. And I still agree with him.

[TravelingChris]

18 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

No, I am not a church goer and I have never even heard of “life groups.”  The OP mentioned Sunday school, but IIRC, there was no mention in that post of having to open up about highly personal things in class, so I hadn’t considered that. But if that’s the kind of class the OP attended, wouldn’t the Mug Guy have participated? I got the impression that the OP had no idea what he was like, but that she was aware that he was a long-standing member of the class.

The main thing that struck me in that first post was that even the OP’s dh didn’t seem at all alarmed. He thought she was stereotyping the guy with the mug. And I still agree with him.

Our Sunday school classes are called life groups here.  I don't like the name.  They are still SS classes.  And people still move from class to class, depending on the topic of classes.  And the only life thing my old class did was have a Christmas party and once a going away party.

[KidsHappen]

I have Gadsden plates on both of my vans and used to fly a Culpepper on my house and I am the farthest thing from a Christian, Nationalist or racist that you could possibly imagine. I am very familiar with the history of the Gadsden flag and the fact that it was a revolutionary flag that never had anything to do with the confederacy. From the revolutionary war until the beginning of the Tea Party in 2009 it was primarily flown by Libertarians of which I am one. It was briefly co-opted by the Tea Party from 2009 until 2016. At that point in time it was again primarily used by Libertarians. The original court case (in 2016) asking if the flag was racist only ruled that the case could be brought but it never was and there was never any ruling that it was racist because that was a fringe idea at the time mostly held by people who simply did not know the history of the flag.

It was not until this year that I ever even heard of the idea that people related it to the confederacy, racism and white nationalism. I will concede that some people may have been doing so but not to such an extent that I was aware of it. This too will pass and they will move on to something else. As for me I will continue sporting it just as I have for the past 20 years or so. I feel even more strongly about this than I did before Roe v Wade was overturned. Although now that this is such common knowledge perhaps I should also put Libertarian bumper stickers below them so that people know my POV supposing of course that they know what that means. I would also argue that if you believe that every person currently using the flag belongs to the three groups listed above you are probably wrong more often than not. It has become increasingly popular and is now used by a wide variety of people for many different reasons and it is impossible to tell by the flag alone what those reasons might be. 

[KidsHappen]

5 hours ago, Grace Hopper said:

From an ABC news story dated 1/14/21 - note the flags:

 

Trump supporters clash with police and security forces as people try to storm the U.S. Capitol Building, Jan. 6, 2021, in Washington, D.C.Joseph Prezioso/AFP via Getty Images

Gadsden flags -- yellow American flags that date back to 1778 displaying a rattlesnake and the words, “Don’t tread on me," were also spotted in the crowd. They have been embraced by various anti-government advocates in recent years.

According to Paul Bruski, a graphic design scholar at Iowa State University, the original meaning of the Gadsden flag -- which has been adopted by various Libertarian groups, the Tea Party and some gun rights groups -- has changed over time.

“Gone is the original intent to unite the states to fight an outside oppressor,” he writes. “Instead, for those who fly it today, the government is the oppressor.”

 

 

In that picture I see one Gadsden, one confederate, one that looks like maybe a pirate flag? and a butt load of American flags. So are American flags also now a symbol of white Christian nationalism and racism? Or is that just presumed based on the history of our country?

[KidsHappen]

5 hours ago, TravelingChris said:

What Tea Party movement in the 70's?

The Tea Party started in 2009. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tea_Party_movement 

[KidsHappen]

5 hours ago, ktgrok said:

Peach orchards are fine! It's all about context. If you are in a conversation about a peach orchard, then yes, everyone knows the peach emoji means a peach. But if you are talking about  how your jeans are too tight in the behind,or about Beyonce shaking her rear, etc than a peach emoji will mean a rear end. 

 

I always thought the peach emoji meant something else entirely. Sort of like the mix up in meaning between a British person and an American using the word fanny.

[KidsHappen]

4 hours ago, wathe said:

Safe for you.  But not safe for everyone, certainly not for those in targeted groups.  Ergo privilege.

By engaging and probing, I risk putting myself and my family on his radar, and thus potentially endangering them.  I won't do that.

Men are the most dangerous thing that the average woman is exposed to and the closer the man the greater the chance of violence. So should all women avoid getting close to any men?

[KidsHappen]

3 hours ago, KSera said:

It's bizarre that some people are so invested in defending this flag. Does it have some personal significance that makes it important enough that it doesn't matter how it comes across to other people? I'm just wondering what makes it so important to people considering it went like 300 years of not being used.

Here's a picture from a prominent rally in North Carolina. I'm going to post only the link and not the picture due to the content: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gadsden_flag#/media/File:Charlottesville_"Unite_the_Right"_Rally_(35780276094).jpg

This is not some secret hidden meaning.

Once again, I see one possible Gadsden. It seems like it is getting lumped in with other flags when one person in a group chooses to use it.

[Heartstrings]

2 minutes ago, KidsHappen said:

Once again, I see one possible Gadsden. It seems like it is getting lumped in with other flags when one person in a group chooses to use it.

You see one, I see three.   

[KSera]

20 minutes ago, KidsHappen said:

Once again, I see one possible Gadsden. It seems like it is getting lumped in with other flags when one person in a group chooses to use it.

You can choose to disregard the association since it doesn't apply to you, but it doesn't change that it is currently most associated with Far Right ideology. That may shift again in the future, and it may or may not relevant to you that some people may wonder if you believe certain things you don't based on your plates.

 

1 hour ago, KidsHappen said:

From the revolutionary war until the beginning of the Tea Party in 2009 it was primarily flown by Libertarians of which I am one. It was briefly co-opted by the Tea Party from 2009 until 2016.

Well, to be fair, the Tea Party came from Libertarian Roots and still has overlap.

eta: coincidentally, there are a bunch of new news stories about the Gadsden flag today due to a story about a boy wearing one on his backpack and being told to remove it.

etaa: Now I'm seeing that some of the stories about the boy with the Gadsden patch were misleading/incomplete. He had a bunch of patches of semi-automatic weapons, which violates his charter school's rules. He was allowed to return after removing the weapon patches and leaving the Gadsden patch.

Edited August 31, 2023 by KSera

[KidsHappen]

50 minutes ago, KSera said:

You can choose to disregard the association since it doesn't apply to you, but it doesn't change that it is currently most associated with Far Right ideology. That may shift again in the future, and it may or may not relevant to you that some people may wonder if you believe certain things you don't based on your plates.

 

Well, to be fair, the Tea Party came from Libertarian Roots and still has overlap.

eta: coincidentally, there are a bunch of new news stories about the Gadsden flag today due to a story about a boy wearing one on his backpack and being told to remove it.

Yes, as a Libertarian I am aware that the Tea Party sprung from Libertarian roots and that is probably why they used the Gadsden flag but the Libertarian party was pretty quick to separate itself once the Tea Party started leaning a little too far right. I don't really think there is much more overlap now than there was before the Tea Party.

As I said now that I am aware that there are people who may incorrectly interpret my plates I will probably add a Libertarian bumper sticker. I would be ok to changing it to a Culpepper if that was an option but it is not. I actually prefer the Culpepper as it is not quite so strident and blends in with my house better which is why I fly it instead. 

I did not hear about the latest news story that you mentioned but I will look it up. Previous to this though most storied related to the 2016 case which went nowhere. Just last week (when I heard about the whole topic for the first time) I looked up racism related to the Gadsden flag and the first three pages of Google results all related to that case or why people incorrectly believed that it had a racist past. 

I don't think it is at all unusual to see a few Gadsdens sprinkled in any crowd because as I said because many different people fly it for many different reasons. Just because some white, Christian nationalists choose to use it does not mean that that is what it stands for. 

ETA: So I just looked this up and it looks like the decision for now was that he was allowed to keep it.

Edited August 31, 2023 by KidsHappen

[KSera]

13 minutes ago, KidsHappen said:

I did not hear about the latest news story that you mentioned but I will look it up. Previous to this though most storied related to the 2016 case which went nowhere. Just last week (when I heard about the whole topic for the first time) I looked up racism related to the Gadsden flag and the first three pages of Google results all related to that case or why people incorrectly believed that it had a racist past. 

I see more references to the Jan 6 insurrection and the Far Right than I do the 2016 (15? 14? maybe it started in 2014 and wrapped up in 16?) case.

eta: I use a search engine that isn't based on an algorithm of what I have looked at in the past, so I'm going to get different results than if someone uses Google.

Edited August 31, 2023 by KSera

[KidsHappen]

1 minute ago, KSera said:

I see more references to the Jan 6 insurrection and the Far Right than I do the 2016 (15? 14? maybe it started in 2014 and wrapped up in 16?) case.

Must be based on our individual Google results. I didn't get a single hit about J6 or the far right. The case did start in 2014 and concluded in 2016.

[Grace Hopper]

55 minutes ago, KidsHappen said:

Must be based on our individual Google results. I didn't get a single hit about J6 or the far right. The case did start in 2014 and concluded in 2016.

The bolded, meaning you got no results looking for the Gadsden flag wrt J6?

If that’s what you’re looking for, the link I posted upthread will take you to images of that day, with it Carrie’s both outside and inside the Capitol building by insurrectionists. 
 

 

[KidsHappen]

2 hours ago, Grace Hopper said:

The bolded, meaning you got no results looking for the Gadsden flag wrt J6?

If that’s what you’re looking for, the link I posted upthread will take you to images of that day, with it Carrie’s both outside and inside the Capitol building by insurrectionists. 
 

 

No, my original search term a week ago was the Gadsden flag and racism. Nothing came up in that search in regards to J6. I did see the pictures and links in this thread but this is the first time I became aware of that connection. 

[TravelingChris]

5 hours ago, KidsHappen said:

The Tea Party started in 2009. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tea_Party_movement 

Yes, that was what I thought, too.  I was confused by the comment about Tea Party in the 70's.  I lived in the DC area in the 70's and in 2009.  I am not sure when Obamacare was enacted, but there was a very large peaceful Tea Party march to the Capitol then.  

[TravelingChris]

KIdsHappen< I assume you don't like it that Libertarians were labeled white nationalists too by some idiotic politicians and/or media types?  I was so furious about that labeling.  I have supported Reason, where I learn a lot of interesting news. 

But I have heard so much stupidity with the racist label- like math is racist, like grades are racist like some Black politicians are white supremacists, and on and on and on.  And the more some people yell these moronic statements, the more likely it is that young, disaffected males decide the thing to do is do some horrific, violent racism.

I know someone here posted a link to an article probably 4 or 5 years ago about how their son turned into a white supremacist and the journey back.  I think it was in the Boston area.  

We need to remember that this board is not representative of the average American based on our knowledge and awareness of current events and history.  Actually, we are not typical in how we coalesce our knowledge together.  

One final note- this week, a charter school in CO had to back down on a Gadsden flag patch on a 9-year-old's backpack.  They were trying to kick the e boy out of the school because they claimed it was racist and had roots in slavery.  He returned and is now a hero in his class for standing up to ridiculous claims. And the school decided to emphasize the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution.

[Pawz4me]

6 hours ago, KidsHappen said:

In that picture I see one Gadsden, one confederate, one that looks like maybe a pirate flag? and a butt load of American flags. So are American flags also now a symbol of white Christian nationalism and racism? Or is that just presumed based on the history of our country?

Trying to not get too political, but . . . yes, to some extent. For several years the American flag was largely co-opted by those on the hard right. I certainly knew, walking through my own neighborhood and based on some acquaintances and even family members, and having a very good idea of their political leanings, what they were meaning to signal. After the last couple of elections that's changed quite a bit, and people on the left and many of those who just lean left opted to reclaim it. There's now much more variation in the political leanings of people who display the flag.

[Hyacinth]

5 hours ago, KSera said:

You can choose to disregard the association since it doesn't apply to you, but it doesn't change that it is currently most associated with Far Right ideology. 

Is it possible that association is not as widespread as you believe? YOU associate it with far right ideology and  others in this thread do, too. But that doesn’t make it universally true.  

Somewhat related: I read something earlier today—wish I could remember where—that suggested people on Side A of an issue are more likely to see the batsh!t crazy wing of the people on Side B than the people actually on Side B. And vice versa. 

I wonder if something similar is going on here. People against the flag are CERTAIN the flag currently means this one thing over and above any other thing because a few batsh!t crazy people carried it while doing batsh!t crazy things. “LOOK at the images! Don’t you see the danger?”  And the pro-flag people are saying “Crazies gonna crazy. That doesn’t change the meaning of the flag for me any more than it changes the meaning of the American flag for me.”
 

Sadly, in our current moment, the fringe of every issue gets the headlines, the clicks, the attention. And then normal people going about their everyday lives have only a surface knowledge of that issue based on the fringe group. Or they look more closely into the fringe group and start to believe THIS is the way they all are.

We sort, label, and categorize people—without so much as a simple conversation—then we deem them dangerous and unworthy.

And we shake our heads at the divisiveness of the country. 
 

[Pawz4me]

(Deleted text of original post -- I wanted to use an analogy that on second thought I just wasn't comfy with.)

In short -- I think it's more on the people who claim to use the Gadsden flag with benign intent to push back on the ones using it to signal other things than it is on the rest of us to assume benign intent, when our lived experience tells us that a significant portion of people using the symbol are not using it for benign reasons.

Sorry for the run on sentence!

Edited August 31, 2023 by Pawz4me

[KidsHappen]

1 hour ago, TravelingChris said:

KIdsHappen< I assume you don't like it that Libertarians were labeled white nationalists too by some idiotic politicians and/or media types?  I was so furious about that labeling. 

Yeah, I have been Libertarian and voting that way for almost 40 years now. Most of that time I have been used to most people not really paying us much attention or really knowing much about us. Then it was like we were co-opted by an outside group and dragged into a mess not of our making and then being blamed for it by another group of people. Very frustrating. Things seemed to be improving for our party though and we are starting to make progress especially at the state and local levels.

[Hyacinth]

27 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

(Deleted text of original post -- I wanted to use an analogy that on second thought I just wasn't comfy with.)

In short -- I think it's more on the people who claim to use the Gadsden flag with benign intent to push back on the ones using it to signal other things than it is on the rest of us to assume benign intent, when on our lived experience tells us that a significant portion of people using the symbol are not using it for benign reasons.

Sorry for the run on sentence!

I hear what you’re saying. I don’t run in those groups, though, so I don’t have many opportunities to converse with J6-ers.  

Maybe it’s not an either/or. 

I do appreciate the historic significance of the Gadsden flag and I want to dispel any confusion about what it means to me. I’d love to convey that just because some hateful people have distorted the flag’s original meaning, that doesn’t mean I stand with them. It doesn’t mean that the majority of people who love that flag stand with them. They’re a fringe and that’s where they belong. 

I could get this message out by posting something on FaceBook. I could tell people here 🙂. I could go to a bigot rally and ask the hateful people to put the flag down. I could show up to a Sunday school class with a flag symbol on my mug and have a thoughtful conversation about it….

Edited August 31, 2023 by Hyacinth

[KidsHappen]

19 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

(Deleted text of original post -- I wanted to use an analogy that on second thought I just wasn't comfy with.)

In short -- I think it's more on the people who claim to use the Gadsden flag with benign intent to push back on the ones using it to signal other things than it is on the rest of us to assume benign intent, when on our lived experience tells us that a significant portion of people using the symbol are not using it for benign reasons.

Sorry for the run on sentence!

Well I wasn't aware that was necessary until very recently but now that I know I will certainly try

[Heartstrings]

1 hour ago, Hyacinth said:

onder if something similar is going on here. People against the flag are CERTAIN the flag currently means this one thing over and above any other thing because a few batsh!t crazy people carried it while doing batsh!t crazy things. “LOOK at the images! Don’t you see the danger?”  And the pro-flag people are saying “Crazies gonna crazy. That doesn’t change the meaning of the flag for me any more than it changes the meaning of the American flag for me.

I’ll try one more time then I’m giving up. 
 

No one in this thread, that I have read, is AGAINST the flag.  It’s a historical flag, there really isn’t a for or against.   It is currently being used by neo Nazi groups.  It has other meanings, of course, but the loudest group using it currently are neo Nazis.  

NO ONE has said that means everyone using the flag is a neo Nazi, except people saying we shouldn’t  think that.  No one said that, no one thought it.  YOU ARE RIGHT, it does not mean everyone using it is a neo Nazi, that’s why no one actually said that.  

Wether people are aware of what’s going on in neo Nazi circles or not does not change what they are doing.  It’s more important to some people to keep up with it.  It’s a safety issue. This stuff gets covered by the media, most of what I know comes from NPR interviews.  The NYT covers it, its in the wiki for the flag, it etc.  The neo Nazi groups are using Revolution era symbols  at the moment because they are trying to do a 2nd revolution and want to wrap themselves in that mythology.  I’m not sure why that’s controversial.   They don’t keep it a secret.  No one thinks that makes George Washington a neo Nazi, or makes learning US history racist.  
 

Just saying a racist group is now using a symbol does not mean everyone using that symbol is a neo Nazi or make the symbol a neo Nazi symbol.   We all know that.  It’s a strange leap to decide that it does.  

 

 

[Hyacinth]

6 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

I’ll try one more time then I’m giving up. 
 

No one in this thread, that I have read, is AGAINST the flag.  It’s a historical flag, there really isn’t a for or against.   It is currently being used by neo Nazi groups.  It has other meanings, of course, but the loudest group using it currently are neo Nazis.  

NO ONE has said that means everyone using the flag is a neo Nazi, except people saying we shouldn’t  think that.  No one said that, no one thought it.  YOU ARE RIGHT, it does not mean everyone using it is a neo Nazi, that’s why no one actually said that.  

Wether people are aware of what’s going on in neo Nazi circles or not does not change what they are doing.  It’s more important to some people to keep up with it.  It’s a safety issue. This stuff gets covered by the media, most of what I know comes from NPR interviews.  The NYT covers it, its in the wiki for the flag, it etc.  The neo Nazi groups are using Revolution era symbols  at the moment because they are trying to do a 2nd revolution and want to wrap themselves in that mythology.  I’m not sure why that’s controversial.   They don’t keep it a secret.  No one thinks that makes George Washington a neo Nazi, or makes learning US history racist.  
 

Just saying a racist group is now using a symbol does not mean everyone using that symbol is a neo Nazi or make the symbol a neo Nazi symbol.   We all know that.  It’s a strange leap to decide that it does.  

 

When people say that seeing that symbol raises red flags of concern—regardless of context or additional information from the wearer or holder of said flag—it’s pretty easy to jump to being “against” the display of the flag.

But I’m with you, Heartstrings. It feels like we’ve gone around and around here. I’m done too.

Edited August 31, 2023 by Hyacinth

[Heartstrings]

2 hours ago, KidsHappen said:

No, my original search term a week ago was the Gadsden flag and racism. Nothing came up in that search in regards to J6. I did see the pictures and links in this thread but this is the first time I became aware of that connection. 

You can just explicitly search Gadsen Flag Jan 6.  Tons of images.  I guess one or two guys could save just really gotten around but that’s kind of hard in a dense crowd.  I watched it live as it was happening and there were several of the. Gadsden flags.  It’s not their only symbol, it’s one of many.  They are using it, and using the language of Revolution when they are talking, both on Jan 6 and since.   We can argue about how much they are using it, is 1 flag enough, or is 50, and we’ll draw different conclusions about which number is significant.   Since you currently display it, your libertarian association with is naturally stronger.  For me, it’s use by libertarian is just as theoretical.  I don’t know any libertarians that display it,  I just know I’ve read that they do.  
 

It’s use by neo nazis does not erase the libertarians use if it, does not make everyone using it a racist, does not erase that it was a Revolutionary War symbol.  It’s just a new use that is of note, especially if you live in an area with militia types, as I do.  

[ktgrok]

1. I actually like the flag itself, and even more like "no step on snek" memes

2. Right now a group/movement of Americans who are anti-government have decided this flag with its inherent revolutionary connotation is a good one to carry as part of their movement. 

I think it is is more anti government than racist as for as its implication - BUT right now those who are anti government (to the point of revolution) are also often racist. But I don't think the flag itself is meant to symbolize racism even within those groups. 

3. I think that when we choose to use symbols that others associate with hate or extremism we should know that others may take it that way and that knowledge may change how we use that symbol. As a Christian I know that many associate Christianity with things I do NOT believe in. I still wear religious symbols at times, but I try to pair them with other symbolism to make make clear I'm not part of "that group".