.

[regentrude]

9 hours ago, Petrova Fossil said:

Since the first 2 years of a 4 year degree are mostly gen eds, is it at all possible to CLEP (or DE) out of all of them, find a college (probably will have to be instate, and with an articulation agreement in case of any CC classes) that will take this credit, and go straight to the degree courses? 

In STEM (which you said you're interested in) the first two years aren't just gen eds. In physics for example (which is my are of expertise), the 2nd year would also include calc 3, diff. Eq., modern physics, intermediate lab, and math methods for physicists. There are no AP or CLEP for those.

It is certainly possible to take DE classes and then transfer, at any level - if you can find an institution that offers the classes. So asking about DE in general makes little sense - a Community College may not have the courses, while a 4 year uni might.

Keep in mind that transfer students may not be eligible for freshman scholarships. 

Edited June 25, 2023 by regentrude

[8filltheheart]

Have you shared to age/grade/level of your student? (I'm too lazy to search.) Goals/objectives matter. Using those for thoughtful planning would be the best path forward. Accumulating crs without a specific purpose is rather pointless. As regentrude pted out, course sequence also matters.

My STEM kids have benefitted from having strategically completed crs in high school for multiple different reasons. One used them as a way to co-op for 12 mos and still graduate with chemE degree in 4 yrs. Another could have graduated with double degrees in math and physics in 2.5 yrs, but he stayed 4 yrs to do research and take grad courses while on full UG scholarship which in turn helped his grad school apps. Another used them to reduce load so she can work on prof's research.

None of them took random courses. They took ones that really interested them or ones they knew they had to take but knew they wouldn't enjoy to get out of the way.

[MagistraKennedy]

Rising senior --

She's taken 1 DE class already (psychology), enrolled in her second currently (global history) and is slated for a third this fall. (Chem 101) I'll try to convince her to take at least one more in the spring, depending on how things are going. No plans for AP. I'd like to have her take a CLEP for US History, but test anxiety is a big issue for her. 

Rising freshmen twins --
No plans for AP. Will start DE slowly, with a health and wellness class this fall. 

[Penelope]

I have one graduate of my homeschool who took 6 AP classes. We chose classes based on best options at the time, which didn’t include DE at a 4-year uni. I didn’t feel I had the ability to facilitate AP math and sciences at home. The other AP’s were a good fit for interests, and to some extent to check boxes to show “rigor” for potential scholarships at some large state schools. The potential for college credit was further down on the list, not being sure which college would be attended and how credits would be handled there.

Something else I haven’t seen mentioned in this thread in response to the OP is that depending on the college and the student’s major, the student might not be advised by the college to take credit for certain AP or DE. For example, those with majors in the STEM fields may be advised to take Chem or Calc 2 at their university if it’s critical to their major or is a pre-requisite for desired professional school, even if their AP score is good enough to opt out. The course at the uni may go deeper, and possibly many other students also go into the major with the same advanced course work in high school, so it’s not as though the previous work was necessarily a waste of time. It’s another example of how doing college-level work in high school is not always a matter of getting as many credits as you can in order to finish college sooner. 
 

[kirstenhill]

18 hours ago, Petrova Fossil said:

Since the first 2 years of a 4 year degree are mostly gen eds, is it at all possible to CLEP (or DE) out of all of them, find a college (probably will have to be instate, and with an articulation agreement in case of any CC classes) that will take this credit, and go straight to the degree courses?

I think others have responded as well, but this is much harder in STEM fields, particularly engineering.   My DS16 has been looking at the classes required for some engineering programs (He is first and foremost interested in a math major, but is looking at how potential double majors in various fields might work out).  It's not uncommon for 1-2 engineering-specific courses to be required freshman year, but then in the 2nd year of the degree program it is starting to get very specialized into different engineering courses - some that are the same for many engineering disciplines, some that are specific to the type of engineering degree.   It might not be impossible to find some of those classes at a CC, but seems somewhat unlikely.  And the 2nd year courses must be taken before the 3rd year courses, etc... So it seems like it would be rare to shave off more than 1 year by DE in some of these engineering programs unless you have access to a 4 year school for DE. 

My DD18 is a lighter STEM field (a specialization of Food Science), and she also has a very step-by-step degree program that starts with freshman year classes that are fairly specific to the major.  She did need basic biology, math, chemistry...but also a nutrition class, another food science related class, and a hands-on lab-type class related to food science.   She takes organic chem and biochem next year but also more food science labs.  Another thing  I find interesting about her degree program is they double dip some major requirements with university-wide requirements.  For example, all students have to take a "US Diversity Perspectives" class, but she doesn't get to pick which one - she has one that is food related to also meet a requirement of the degree program (it's about regional US foods and cuisines...sounds like a super fun class!).   So she has even fewer "elective" or liberal arts choices to fill than some students.  All that to say I can't imagine her having been able to DE two years of this degree program in high school...the specific classes just would not have been available.  Some of the 1st year classes are requirements for 2nd year classes, etc in her degree program also.

Edited June 25, 2023 by kirstenhill

[000000000]

.

Edited September 9, 2023 by Petrova Fossil

[000000000]

.

Edited September 9, 2023 by Petrova Fossil

[regentrude]

8 hours ago, Petrova Fossil said:

 Is it more likely that credit will transfer should you DE at a 4 year school and then enroll for the degree at that school? 

If he does DE at the same school as he later attends, there's no "transfer"; the school will accept its *own* credits.

In some cases, credit may still not transfer do a different school: a highly selective one; content doesn't match; class isn't exactly the right level for the intended major. Check the transfer credit database on the school's website.

For example,  none of DDs credits from public 4y transferred to UChicago, but they allowed her placement in honors level.

Other example:  Our school does not give calc 1 credit for calc 1 at certain unis because they cover different topics, but gives credit for calc 1+2 if student has taken both at that uni, because together they cover what our courses do.

Edited June 26, 2023 by regentrude

[8filltheheart]

8 hours ago, Petrova Fossil said:

Since a 4 year univ offers actual college courses, would DE’ing there be a better option? Is it more likely that credit will transfer should you DE at a 4 year school and then enroll for the degree at that school? 

As always in these discussions, it depends.  Some Us limit the number of hrs that a student can transfer in.  The limit might be something like 16.  The rest of the hrs might be allowed for placement into higher level coursework, but in order to earn a degree from that institution, the rest of the hrs must be completed there.  Others (typically publics) will allow up to 60 hrs to be transferred in.  On their sites, you should be able to go to the transfer cr page and see if any coursework from you CC or 4 yr U has already been approved for transfer cr.

There is no hard and fast rule.  The only way to know for sure is to research the answers.  For example, I was told repeatedly that one high ranking school would not accept my ds's math and physics coursework (from DE at a 4 yr U).  He applied and was accepted.  He talked to the dean of the depts and they told him to submit the coursework information and they would let him know.  The courses were accepted.  They would have required 1 additional math class for him to be on par with where he was according to other schools bc he was missing part of a single course's material.  He didn't attend there, but no, he wouldn't have had to start over if he had.

Our current dd lives at home and is attending the local U.  She really dislikes humanities courses.  She has taken history, public speaking, music, etc at the local CC during the summer to transfer into the local U. (There is an easy preapproval process that she completes before she registers.)  She could have taken that type of coursework in high school and not have had to deal with them as an UG if that had been a high school objective (which it wasn't.) She hasn't taken this approach to graduate early.  It simply frees up more time in her academic yr to take more classes that interest her and pertain to goals. 

Pt being, you are not going to be able to receive a firm answer to your questions.  The answer is simply going to remain it depends.

 

[teachermom2834]

And just to add to the “it depends” even with a specific university in mind you can only plan so much so far in advance. Policies change. Curriculum requirements change. Something that is accepted when you check when your student is a sophomore can very well change before they enroll. Or no longer be a required course. So you can think through these things but you have to retain a bit of flexibility and understand that everything might not transfer as cleanly as you hope no matter how well you plan. You really need to know your big picture academic goals and not get bogged down in every transfer detail. A college may grant credit for an AP exam when your kid takes it but change the policy before they attend. You can only plan so much.

[lewelma]

Just an FYI: to transfer credit in to my older boy's school, we had to turn in for each class:

1. syllabus (which MUST include the name of text, edition, page numbers covered, detailed list of topics)

2. the midterm and final exams

3. written confirmation from the department that the exams were proctored

This whole thing was a problem because there was no text assigned for this class. Basically, ds was given the option of many different textbooks he could buy/find on the internet, and no page numbers to align with content covered. There was also no detailed list of topics on the syllabus. So we had to actually make a more detailed syllabus using his homework sets and the book he chose to read (we labeled it as made by us based on the homework and they never complained). In addition, ds never got the final exam back so had to ask the department for a copy but the professor had changed (and moved overseas) so they had quite some difficulty tracking down the version my ds took. Finally, the written confirmation of proctoring was also a problem because once again the professor had changed and there were no clear records. Basically, to get ds's linear algebra transfered was quite a nightmare. It obviously depends on the school, but don't assume DE credits are always easy to transfer.

Edited June 26, 2023 by lewelma

[Sebastian (a lady)]

As others have pointed out, there is a difference between a course transfering from one college to another and the course meeting a requirement for a major or for graduation. 

For example, my son has a couple Intro to Aerospace courses he earned from a CC by doing a Spacegrant course. Those credits were accepted by his 4 year college and appear on his transcript. But they don't fill a major or graduation requirement. 

He learned a lot in the Spacegrant course, and earned more money at coop based on his overall credit based academic standing. But he won't graduate earlier based on those credits. 

On the other hand, some of his other DE credits allowed him to meet requirements earlier in his 4 year plan and create room for a minor.

[Clemsondana]

I'll add that for gen ed requirements, many colleges now have a lot of categories that students need to choose from.  Even when it's simple, the requirements change.  A college might require a certain number of upper level humanities or social science, so that students take intro to psych and then 2 further courses like developmental psych.  Or a college could prefer breadth, so that students choose 2-3 classes in different disciplines.  A college can switch from requiring a certain number of humanities/social sciences to specfically requiring 2 of one and 1 of the other.  Some now require that one class fulfill a multicultural requirement and another fulfill an ethics requirement, or other combinations of specific requirements.  If the goal is to free up college time, you have to be looking at a limited number of schools so that you can see if your choices fit those requirements.  Just taking classes across disciplines may or may not fulfill any requirements at a specific college even if all of the credits transfer.  

One of kiddo's likely schools has started offering the option of taking the first 2 freshman engineering classes online the summer before you start college.  Apparently they are getting enough students who have taken the freshman year requirements (English, 2 semesters of calculus, physics with calc, etc) that there were frustrations with students being held up by those 2 classes.  If kid goes there, kid may choose to do those classes.  Graduating early could be an option, but students might also use the freed-up time to take other classes, earn a masters, spend more time on research, or do a co-op year.  But, very early kid set some guidelines around potential colleges so we've been able to look at specific requirements at just a handful of schools.  And, we keep in mind  that the goal of high school is to educate a high schooler.  If a course counts for something else great!  But, we only take classes that otherwise fit into our high school plan.  

[Penelope]

2 hours ago, Clemsondana said:

I'll add that for gen ed requirements, many colleges now have a lot of categories that students need to choose from.  Even when it's simple, the requirements change.  A college might require a certain number of upper level humanities or social science, so that students take intro to psych and then 2 further courses like developmental psych.  Or a college could prefer breadth, so that students choose 2-3 classes in different disciplines.  A college can switch from requiring a certain number of humanities/social sciences to specfically requiring 2 of one and 1 of the other.  Some now require that one class fulfill a multicultural requirement and another fulfill an ethics requirement, or other combinations of specific requirements.  If the goal is to free up college time, you have to be looking at a limited number of schools so that you can see if your choices fit those requirements.  Just taking classes across disciplines may or may not fulfill any requirements at a specific college even if all of the credits transfer.  

 

I’ve noticed that, too.

Maybe I’m dense, but it just occurred to me reading this that one reason for all these different requirements rather than keeping it simple is that schools don’t want kids to graduate in three years. It certainly is a financial disincentive to schools to make it easy for students to check boxes during dual enrollment and pay fewer years of tuition in higher Ed.

I don’t think that’s the only reason, or that it’s some kind of conspiracy. There are a number of different colleges within each university and each make their own core requirements. Maybe it’s just too many university bureaucrats getting in their pet courses to require of students. 😛But seeing some of the simple box checking my college kids are having to do, not related to their major, makes me wonder. 

Edited June 27, 2023 by Penelope

[Lori D.]

11 minutes ago, Penelope said:

I’ve noticed that, too.

Maybe I’m dense, but it just occurred to me reading this that one reason for all these different requirements rather than keeping it simple is that schools don’t want kids to graduate in three years....

While I don't doubt this is entirely possible, for some majors (like Engineering) it really is a "daisy chain" of courses, where earlier courses are foundational and absolutely needed to take first for understanding the content of later courses -- and that doesn't work to take simultaneously.

When DS#1 was going through the Mechanical Engineering program at his college, he had 3 levels of Calculus that were required (plus several later vector math courses), and they built upon one another -- so that's a minimum of 3 semesters right there. Further, several other foundational physics/mechanics courses depended on having completed the first 1-2 levels of the Calculus, and then further Mech Eng. courses built on those foundational courses -- that was at least another 2 semesters minimum.

So, for the first 2.5 years of the program, it was critical to take courses in a certain order to make sure you COULD graduate in 4 years.

Even if a student had knocked out all the required gen. ed. courses early via DE or CLEP, the Engineering degree programs at DS#1's school required a minimum of 128 credits, compared to the minimum 120 credits of some other degree programs. So early completion of gen. ed. courses meant that instead of the typical 16-18 credits per semester required for Engineering students to graduate in 4 years, students could drop down to an average of 15 credits per semester. 😉 

What IS possible in our area is for an advanced high school student to take DE at the community college of not only the gen. ed. courses required for the Engineering degree at the local 4-year university, but also enough of the early math and engineering courses to knock out up to 2 full years of the degree before graduating high school and transferring those credits and continuing at the university for a shortened amount of time.

Edited June 27, 2023 by Lori D.

[regentrude]

26 minutes ago, Penelope said:

Maybe I’m dense, but it just occurred to me reading this that one reason for all these different requirements rather than keeping it simple is that schools don’t want kids to graduate in three years. It certainly is a financial disincentive to schools to make it easy for students to check boxes during dual enrollment and pay fewer years of tuition in higher Ed.

Actually, schools would love for more students to graduate in three years because that would increase the four-year graduation rates which are one of the most important markers for college rankings. 
Because of demographic trends, the number of prospective college students is shrinking, and colleges are fighting for pieces of the pie. Increasing the graduation rates is one of the top goals of many college administrations because it will lead to more students.

ETA: as an advisor and professor, it is sadly my experience that very often, the quality of math and science courses at community college is not the same as at our STEM uni, and many transfer students  struggle because they find themselves unprepared for the rigor of our coursework. Just "knocking out" the credit to check the box may work for some random gen eds; it won't for foundational math classes.

Edited June 27, 2023 by regentrude

[ScoutTN]

We chose Dd’s AP’s strictly for educational reasons. With those and her CLEP score, she’ll have a little wiggle room in credits in case of a rough/bad class that she drops, but that’s just a bonus. We just chose things she wanted to study and things that kept her schedule balanced. 

Edited June 28, 2023 by ScoutTN

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I found it helpful to print out sample 4 year plans for majors my kids were considering from several different colleges. 

This helped us see what a typical progression might be, where AP or DE courses might fill a requirement, and also how similar programs differed.

The requirements at a liberal arts college, where students take a broad curriculum and don't declare a major until sophomore year would differ from an engineering curriculum at a large university, which would differ from a BFA in a technical theater program. Each of these programs might be housed in something called a college. 

[Alice Lamb]

On 6/26/2023 at 2:52 PM, lewelma said:

Just an FYI: to transfer credit in to my older boy's school, we had to turn in for each class:

1. syllabus (which MUST include the name of text, edition, page numbers covered, detailed list of topics)

2. the midterm and final exams

3. written confirmation from the department that the exams were proctored

 

I have taught in a large, required course where the final exam included a standardized national exam published by the professional organization for our majors, plus a brief in-house part covering topics taught in our course that weren't covered on the standardized test and questions with higher-order thinking.  We set our own grading scale for exam and course grades since it wasn't exactly the same test as the standardized part. (We reported the raw scores from the standarized part to the national organization.)  We could NOT ever release the full exam due to exam security rules on the standardized part. 

[regentrude]

On 6/26/2023 at 1:52 PM, lewelma said:

Just an FYI: to transfer credit in to my older boy's school, we had to turn in for each class:

1. syllabus (which MUST include the name of text, edition, page numbers covered, detailed list of topics)

2. the midterm and final exams

3. written confirmation from the department that the exams were proctored

Was this for credit earned at another US college, or for courses from NZ?

These are highly unusual requirements.

Typically,  schools request the syllabus which needs to include the covered topics, not just rules and grading scale. I have had many such queries from students who wanted our courses accepted by another uni, and we have never been asked to provide exams or information about proctoring. 

Edited June 28, 2023 by regentrude

[athena1277]

Dd did 2 AP’s, but didn’t do well on one because it was 2020 when they changed the tests at the last minute to be taken at home.  She also took 3 Clep exams.  She started college with 15 hours of credit.

Ds is going to start DE this fall (just one class at a time for now) and will take 1 Clep this fall.  We’ll see how it goes this fall before deciding what else to do later.

[lewelma]

8 hours ago, regentrude said:

Was this for credit earned at another US college, or for courses from NZ?

These are highly unusual requirements.

Typically,  schools request the syllabus which needs to include the covered topics, not just rules and grading scale. I have had many such queries from students who wanted our courses accepted by another uni, and we have never been asked to provide exams or information about proctoring. 

This was a standard requirement for MIT (domestic or international) if you wanted CREDIT for classes (not placement). There was no automation for transfer credit -- my ds's class was assessed by a professor in the department to make sure it was equivalent. Basically, if MIT was giving you credit, they needed assurance that the class was of equal difficulty to the one that they taught.  

Edited June 28, 2023 by lewelma

[lewelma]

9 hours ago, Alice Lamb said:

I have taught in a large, required course where the final exam included a standardized national exam published by the professional organization for our majors, plus a brief in-house part covering topics taught in our course that weren't covered on the standardized test and questions with higher-order thinking.  We set our own grading scale for exam and course grades since it wasn't exactly the same test as the standardized part. (We reported the raw scores from the standarized part to the national organization.)  We could NOT ever release the full exam due to exam security rules on the standardized part. 

If I remember correctly, my ds had the midterm that he could give to them, but the final was never returned. The department couldn't find a copy of it in their records (it was from 3 years earlier), so the head of the department sent the final exam directly to the math department at MIT with a note that said that the exam given 3 years prior would have been very similar to the current exam. 

As for your above situation,  it was the math department that was assessing the course, not administrative staff, so they probably knew what that standardized exam contained and wouldn't need a copy. They did want to know the textbook AND edition so clearly knew a lot about the textbooks out there , so I assume would also know about tests available for departments to purchase. 

Edited June 29, 2023 by lewelma

[SKL]

Not really clear - do you mean per year, per subject, or all together?

My kids both take AP English because I require them to, but not because I expect them to test out of college classes.  I just want them to learn how to write like a college student.

Other classes they are taking are AP because there is no non-AP option.  My average kid is going to end up with 5 credits in AP classes, but is unlikely to test into any college credits.  My more academically capable kid should end up with 4 credits in AP classes - just different interests.  She may do well on the AP tests - we'll see.

[turkeypotpie]

This topic is very timely for us as we are in the midst of overhauling our home schedule to incorporate some CLEPs instead of APs exams for a couple classes. For our particular case which might provide an example, here's the context:

- Our student's loose goal for now is targeting our state public flagship (great ratings, tons of options, and tuition paid via FL Bright Futures)

- Our state has generous CLEP and AP transfer credit policies, generally up to 45 credits 

- By university system rules, completing an AA degree via a state/community college will guarantee transfer of 60+ credits and serve as completion of the gen ed/core curriculum, regardless of if the particular public university has a different set of core requirements than the community college. Some of the private universities will also honor the AA to fulfill the same set of requirements and confer junior status, depending on major requirements. 

- State rules that AA earners are guaranteed admission to a public university ("a" university, not necessarily their first choice, just "preferential admission")

- Our student will be taking 15 DE credits via our local community college to meet residency requirements for the AA

- A side benefit: DE AA-holding high school graduates are looked at as first-time-in-college applicants for admissions, but may be offered a second look as a transfer if not accepted as a 'first-year' student 

- CLEPs are widely accepted by state colleges and credit for numerous classes are in parity and in some cases greater than AP (especially for scores of 3 or 4)

Some AP courses, like the Physics C's and CalcBC are absolutely best done in the homeschool context. Extensive planning is needed to meet DE pre-reqs for Calc 1+2 and University Physics 1+2 in the college, so those are a keeper and with good scores (4+) a student in our system could earn 16 college credits with those alone. Most AP classes are the equivalent of a 1-semester college course stretched over an entire year; PhysicsC, CalcBC, Bio and Chem are the rare exceptions that can garner two semesters worth each for high AP scores. That said, basic level Chem and Bio can be taken as CLEP or DSST as backup or for non-STEM track kids, but not Calculus and Physics. 

The advantages for CLEP seem to favor English, history, and economics. For our state flagship as an example, a 3 score in AP English will transfer as first semester 3-credit English, while a 4 or 5 score will be two semesters for 6 credits. The CLEP College Composition exam, with the basic passing score of 50, will always count as both. So my student could take the CLEP whenever she wants to without regard to the College Board once-a-year schedule that must be carefully arranged through a local high school (for $100 while also cramming for her other APs during the same week) and get the same credits for a test with a lower overall requirement (fewer essays) and receive her score in a couple weeks (or immediately for multiple-choice CLEPs) instead of the agonizing 2-month wait for AP scores we are all suffering through right now. Plus, if the CLEP goes bad for some reason, she can retake it after further study without penalty. The test is even free if the student completes the Modern States material, perhaps using it as a pre-exam refresher or test prep after the main body of the course.

Finally, she could still take the AP course to prep for it and for the structure and material expected to have it reflected on the high school transcript. So consider getting the college board certification for your homeschool AP English Language and Comp, for example, and teach the course per AP standards to build all the required skills and writing development, but take the CLEP for the credits and not the AP exam. It would be so much less stressful for student and parent. The exam would be taken when the student peaks, not on the CB-approved date come hell or high water.

History is another great option here. For example, our state flagship provides only 3 credits of basic general education credit for a 3 on the AP US History exam, while a 4 or 5 are worth 6 credits divided between US History 1 (to 1877) and US History 2 (after 1877). The CLEPs for US History 1 and 2 are the exact same equivalencies. It seems like a no-brainer to take AP US History the class at home, but take the CLEP at the end of semester 1, lock in those credits mid-year when all to pre-1877 info is fresh, and end the year when they are ready with CLEP US Hist 2. Same class on the transcript, same info, same credits. The exams are multiple-choice, without the required essay components of the AP exams. 

For purposes of credit and transcripts, teaching the AP class and capturing the credit via CLEPs also favors World History 1&2, Macro & Micro economics, and perhaps Psychology and American Government. All free via Modern States, all on your schedule, all able to be retaken. 

This idea really doesn't apply against highly selective privates or in our case out-of-state flagship publics though! Most of those heavily favor transfer credit from high-score AP exams (always check their policies! They're all over the place!) and will have very strict limits on CLEP. This is just an idea based on our student's situation, and seems like a golden opportunity to net as much recognized credit as possible, on the most flexible schedule, with the least amount of standardized exam pain, for the least cost. 

This is our first year trying all of this out, though not our student's first CLEP (she passed Spanish last year, a 6 credit equivalency). How it would look ends up like this for her upcoming junior year as an example:

- AP Calc BC - Taking the AP exam (Up to 8 credits)

- AP Physics C - Taking both AP exams (up to 8 credits)

- AP US History: Taking the CLEPs at the end of each semester, but well ahead of AP exam time to give extra emphasis and time for Calc and Physics practice due to their set dates (6 credits)

- AP English Language: Take the CLEP College Composition exam (6 credits) at end of fall semester, possibly an American Lit CLEP (3 credits) end of spring

- AP US Government and Politics - Starting mid fall and ending mid-spring taking the CLEP American Gov exam. (3 cred)

- DE electives via the local community college online to earn residency and fulfill AA requirements

So the year's transcript would reflect six College Board-approved AP courses (3 AP exams) and a mix of DE/exam credit sources worth ~ 30-40 college credits (transferable in our particular public system). 

As a side note, I think AP English/US History/Gov may be a sweet spot for synergy. Done at home, writing and reading assignments can be based along American lit and nonfiction aligned to a historical timeline throughout the year. Essay and writing practice for history and government topics can all build on each other. I like the (AP-approved) Conversations in American Lit book for this idea, and introducing the 1-semester US Gov a few units into the year as the historical timeline starts emphasizing US government establishment and policy. This is my plan for the year after seeing numerous other high schools offer a combined AP English Comp and AP US History setup, so hopefully I'll be able to report back in a year that it was a good path both for the learning experience and for the 18-credit CLEP combination. It makes sense to me to group the US-centric history/gov/lit together.

 

Edited June 29, 2023 by turkeypotpie

[Lori D.]

^^^ Awesome. That is the way to do it. Do your research. Know your student and their abilities/goals, and know the policies of the future colleges you plan to apply to. 😄

BEST of luck, @turkeypotpie and DC!

Edited June 29, 2023 by Lori D.

[daijobu]

I also am in awe of the research of @turkeypotpie.  Well done, and good luck!  

 

[stripe]

On 6/28/2023 at 12:34 AM, Penelope said:

I’ve noticed that, too.

Maybe I’m dense, but it just occurred to me reading this that one reason for all these different requirements rather than keeping it simple is that schools don’t want kids to graduate in three years. It certainly is a financial disincentive to schools to make it easy for students to check boxes during dual enrollment and pay fewer years of tuition in higher Ed.

I don’t think that’s the only reason, or that it’s some kind of conspiracy. There are a number of different colleges within each university and each make their own core requirements. Maybe it’s just too many university bureaucrats getting in their pet courses to require of students. 😛But seeing some of the simple box checking my college kids are having to do, not related to their major, makes me wonder. 

I think your perspective is probably not in line with how a lot of four year colleges operate. I don’t think they see their degrees as a laundry list of classes that one checks off in order to graduate; they are imagining a cohesive experience with a range of classes that’s part of their schools’ culture and unique educational experiences. However, I think it’s worth investigating with the schools involved. Some states have specific transfer agreements between community colleges and four year universities, so that students can easily transfer in credits, because it’s all been worked out and there are advisors there to make sure students take advantage of this. Other states don’t, or you may be anticipating your child applying to a wide range of schools all over the country/world. And I doubt many “bureaucrats” have “pet courses.” (It would have to be a tiny school to even make this possible to imagine.) I don’t think “bureaucrats” are involved with coursework at such a level.

When I was in high school, some college board official came to promote APs as this fabulous way to save money. Neither I, nor any of my high school friends, who passed multiple AP exams and received college credit, actually shortened our time in college. Because many received merit scholarships, it was also not hugely advantageous to rush through. That was the financial advantage we enjoyed from our APs. One of my friends spent a year abroad, for example, studying art, whereas in high school, she had been sure she’d be majoring in science. Spending four years in college may also make one a more attractive candidate for grad school, provide better letters of recommendation, and give more time to explore courses and careers in a meaningful way. Of everyone I have ever known who went this route, only ONE person graduated in three years due to AP credit, but she seemed to do so only because of a unanticipated family health problem that drastically reduced her family’s income.

[Penelope]

20 hours ago, stripe said:

I think your perspective is probably not in line with how a lot of four year colleges operate. I don’t think they see their degrees as a laundry list of classes that one checks off in order to graduate; they are imagining a cohesive experience with a range of classes that’s part of their schools’ culture and unique educational experiences. However, I think it’s worth investigating with the schools involved. Some states have specific transfer agreements between community colleges and four year universities, so that students can easily transfer in credits, because it’s all been worked out and there are advisors there to make sure students take advantage of this. Other states don’t, or you may be anticipating your child applying to a wide range of schools all over the country/world. And I doubt many “bureaucrats” have “pet courses.” (It would have to be a tiny school to even make this possible to imagine.) I don’t think “bureaucrats” are involved with coursework at such a level.

 

I think you read my comments more seriously than I meant them. Yes, I do think colleges are trying to make sure that a degree from their institution provides what they believe is a strong education. Yes, colleges are not monolithic and vary a lot in what is required. Most of what I have seen is in looking at state universities and having children, family, and friends of my children attend them. A few requirements in some states are determined by state law. There does seem to be some “laundry listing” going on in particular requirements for some colleges and for which particular courses satisfy those requirements. I don’t know how requirements are determined from school to school, but in large state universities, some decisions might come from state boards/committees rather than from local departmental faculty.  Why ‘this’ course with a more obscure or light-seeming subject (sometimes even ridiculous-sounding as an undergraduate course to my STEM-minded ears, but opinions vary)  to satisfy a writing, or cross-cultural, or other humanities-related requirement,  rather than another course that fits the category and has similar rigor and amount of writing, and would be more germane to students with certain majors? 

This doesn’t support my earlier question about whether universities just don’t want students to graduate in under 3-4 years, because I think that would be least true for state universities, which also are more likely to accept credits from cc coursework done in high school, and where state cc are more likely to offer opportunities to fulfill some of these special requirements at the 4-year. And I agree with what regentrude said. So I don’t think that if there were any desire to keep students at a school longer, that it would be overt or overriding. But there are reasons why schools would want most students to stay more than two years that purely serve their own interests: student identification with the school for alumni-support reasons, protection of their perceived academic rigor, protection of their overall reputation.