Gap after 2 years Algebra...

[Brittany1116]

DS12 is finishing Alg 1 this week. Next year he will be in 7th and doing Alg 2. We originally planned on the following year being all HS level, but have since decided not to graduate him early for a variety of reasons. So his 8th grade year will be a "gap year" of sorts... mostly self-lead, unschooling type work. I figured he could do some Kahn math and go back through LOF prealgebra series just to keep it all fresh. Is that going to look bad or weird on transcripts? Should I plan for him to do all Kahn algebra and give him 3 Alg credits? 

[Clemsondana]

8th grade won't be on a high school transcript so nobody will see what he did.  My kid's transcripts just list 'high school courses taken prior to 9th grade' without listing the grade in which they were taken.  

A couple of thoughts - will your student do algebra 1, algebra 2, gap year, geometry, and then precalc?  Our local STEM school either swapped geometry back to being between the algebras or added significant review because the kids forgot a lot of algebra during geometry, so I wondered if it might be an issue for there to be 2 years between algebra 2 and precal.  With my older, kid simultaneously worked through Life of Fred algebra while doing geometry (between the 2 algebras) to keep it fresh.  We were doing AoPS in middle and spent 1.5 years on some courses, so we chose to do AoPS Number Theory and  Counting and Probabiility to fill in some gap semesters.  Kid really liked Number Theory, in case it would be a good fit for your student.  

At any rate, I would not assign 3 algebra credits for algebra done in middle school - multiple credits are sometimes given for high schoolers who need more than a year to cover the standard material, but for a student taking them in middle school I think it would look strange.  

[wendyroo]

Is there a reason 8th grade will be a gap year instead of just moving forward with math?

My oldest took Algebra in 5th, Geometry and Intro to Counting & Probability in 6th, Algebra 2 in 7th, and Pre-Calc this year in 8th.
I told he he could follow some rabbit trails next year in 9th and take Number Theory and Intermediate Counting & Probability, but he opted for Calculus because he wants to dual enroll Calc-based Physics in 10th grade.

[regentrude]

I would not do an unstructured unschool math year. There is plenty of math, no fear of "running out" before the end of highschool. I suggest using the year to cover some math that is not part of the traditional highschool sequence" like number theory or probability.

Also, not all algebra is created equal. What curriculum have you used? He sounds like a strong math student, so you might want to look into AoPS.
Their algebra text is on a whole different plane from other curricula, and they also have great books on number theory and counting & probability that are perfect for filling an extra year.

I would not have a kid who has completed algebra 2 repeat a prealgebra book - that math, once it was actually understood, is solidly cemented by now.

Edited May 29, 2023 by regentrude

[Brittany1116]

5 hours ago, Clemsondana said:

8th grade won't be on a high school transcript so nobody will see what he did.  My kid's transcripts just list 'high school courses taken prior to 9th grade' without listing the grade in which they were taken.  

A couple of thoughts - will your student do algebra 1, algebra 2, gap year, geometry, and then precalc?  Our local STEM school either swapped geometry back to being between the algebras or added significant review because the kids forgot a lot of algebra during geometry, so I wondered if it might be an issue for there to be 2 years between algebra 2 and precal.  With my older, kid simultaneously worked through Life of Fred algebra while doing geometry (between the 2 algebras) to keep it fresh.  We were doing AoPS in middle and spent 1.5 years on some courses, so we chose to do AoPS Number Theory and  Counting and Probabiility to fill in some gap semesters.  Kid really liked Number Theory, in case it would be a good fit for your student.  

At any rate, I would not assign 3 algebra credits for algebra done in middle school - multiple credits are sometimes given for high schoolers who need more than a year to cover the standard material, but for a student taking them in middle school I think it would look strange.  

Okay, good to know. In my head, a transcript was organized by subject regardless of number of years completed. So what you say makes sense if it's just organized another way. Thanks.

Oh and we are using Saxon for math, so Advanced Mathematics would come after the 2 years.

Edited May 29, 2023 by Brittany1116

[Brittany1116]

1 hour ago, wendyroo said:

Is there a reason 8th grade will be a gap year instead of just moving forward with math?

My oldest took Algebra in 5th, Geometry and Intro to Counting & Probability in 6th, Algebra 2 in 7th, and Pre-Calc this year in 8th.
I told he he could follow some rabbit trails next year in 9th and take Number Theory and Intermediate Counting & Probability, but he opted for Calculus because he wants to dual enroll Calc-based Physics in 10th grade.

He is great at math but dislikes it. Additionally, I think I will need to outsource anything after algebra. So my logic was he could have a year with Fred and Kahn to stay sharp but not keep rolling ahead. 

[regentrude]

Just now, Brittany1116 said:

He is great at math but dislikes it. Additionally, I think I will need to outsource anything after algebra. So my logic was he could have a year with Fred and Kahn to stay sharp but not keep rolling ahead. 

For a kid who already dislikes math, a year of repetition sounds like a sure way to make him despise math.

[Brittany1116]

5 minutes ago, regentrude said:

I would not do an unstructured unschool math year. There is plenty of math, no fear of "running out" before the end of highschool. I suggest using the year to cover some math that is not part of the traditional highschool sequence" like number theory or probability.

Also, not all algebra is created equal. What curriculum have you used? He sounds like a strong math student, so you might want to look into AoPS.
Their algebra text is on a whole different plane from other curricula, and they also have great books on number theory and counting & probability that are perfect for filling an extra year.

I would not have a kid who has completed algebra 2 repeat a prealgebra book - that math, once it was actually understood, is solidly cemented by now.

He would definitely have to work on an appropriate level of Kahn, and the LOF would be for fun because we have all 3 but he only ever did book 1 (preA 0). I am not a math person, so I am open for suggestions on number theory etc. 

[regentrude]

3 minutes ago, Brittany1116 said:

He would definitely have to work on an appropriate level of Kahn, and the LOF would be for fun because we have all 3 but he only ever did book 1 (preA 0). I am not a math person, so I am open for suggestions on number theory etc. 

AoPS NT or C&P would be a good choice. 

[Brittany1116]

Full disclosure, he is the firstborn of a firstborn and I have realized I have pushed him. While he has risen to the challenge, I want him to have a solid chill year before carrying full high school credit load just because he (likely) can. He said he wants to do a year of HS level ornithology for credit even in the "gap year" so it isn't like a throwaway year, it's just not full steam ahead. 

[Clemsondana]

Playing around with Life of Fred can help keep the algebra skills sharp. Kids either love it or hate it, but if he likes it then I'd go for it.  It does make a good review.  Number Theory is a different kind of math.  He might also like something like Mathematics, a human endeavor - it never lined up for my kids to use it, but it covers some different material.  If he doesn't like math, don't use AoPS for the normal subjects - it's a lot of challenge.  

[ScoutTN]

Some states allow high school level math, language, and science taken in 8th on a transcript. If yours does, you might go sideways with math in 7th, then have a more traditional course in 8th. 

[EKS]

I'd do geometry next year.  Most Algebra 2 resources assume that there has been a year off of algebra, and review accordingly.  In this case it will be two years off, but it should be ok.

[Brittany1116]

3 hours ago, EKS said:

I'd do geometry next year.  Most Algebra 2 resources assume that there has been a year off of algebra, and review accordingly.  In this case it will be two years off, but it should be ok.

We are working with Saxon edt.3. Isn't that sequence A1, A2, Advanced Mathematics? I honestly haven't looked at it since I ordered A1 but in my mind that was their sequence. 

[EKS]

1 hour ago, Brittany1116 said:

We are working with Saxon edt.3. Isn't that sequence A1, A2, Advanced Mathematics? I honestly haven't looked at it since I ordered A1 but in my mind that was their sequence. 

Saxon is different.  It also has a lot of review in each book.  But I don't have experience with it, so I'll defer to those who do!

[regentrude]

2 hours ago, Brittany1116 said:

We are working with Saxon edt.3. Isn't that sequence A1, A2, Advanced Mathematics? I honestly haven't looked at it since I ordered A1 but in my mind that was their sequence. 

Just a thought because you said he is strong at math ( and actually quite advanced) but dislikes it:

I had strong, accelerated math students who simply couldn't stand Saxon because the jumping around and repetition drove them crazy. They wanted to learn a topic to mastery and go deep, rather than the infinitesimal spiral thing.

For a kid who is good at math but dislikes it, it might be worth investigating whether the dislike isn't caused by the curriculum rather than the subject. Had I made mine continue with Saxon, they would have ended up hating math instead of loving it. Saxon gets the job done, but inspiring and joyful it is not.

Edited May 30, 2023 by regentrude

[Aliqout]

On 5/29/2023 at 11:59 AM, Brittany1116 said:

He is great at math but dislikes it. Additionally, I think I will need to outsource anything after algebra. So my logic was he could have a year with Fred and Kahn to stay sharp but not keep rolling ahead. 

If he is great a math, but dislikes it, it might be time to consider different curricula. Saxon can be great at stomping out any love of of math for those that are good at it. (I know there are exceptions). I suspect there are many adults out there who think they hate math, but actually just hat the plug and chug and repeat Saxon method. (I know it works well for some). 

It sounds like he is intelligent and motivated. Check out a curriculum designed for that kind of kid. 

Edited June 5, 2023 by Aliqout

[Malam]

I would suggest doing AoPS intro to algebra next year - it covers both algebra 1 and a lot of algebra 2 in much more depth than Saxon or any other curriculum. I worry AoPS counting and probability or number theory would be too much for someone with a more typical algebra 1 background.

Edited June 5, 2023 by Malam

[Brittany1116]

A little more info on him disliking math...

He's 12 and a perfectionist. Until about 6 or so months ago, he didn't really complain about any school work. Things came easily. As soon as he hit any hiccup, he'd suddenly be irate that he was "working too far ahead". On days he could understand the lesson and make an easy A, he was fine. On days he missed more than 2-3 problems or had to rework a problem multiple times, he HATED MATH. I have asked multiple times what he dislikes and he "doesn't really know". I have asked what would make math better, and he can't think of anything. I have asked if Kahn is better (no, it's the same), if he needs a lot of color (no, it's juvenile), if he wants to move to LOF (no, not enough practice), if he liked the looks of Mathematical Reasoning (too scattered), or BA (too weird). So I think the problem is a combination of tween angst and suddenly being thrown off the easy ride he's been on for years. Growth mindset and study habits are being discussed, among other things. Also, we did the first 1/4 of the book at the rate of 2 lessons a week, so it hasn't been120 days of force-feeding him algebra he wasn't ready for. He just wants to continue to skate through academics. 

[Brittany1116]

TL, DR

I pushed him to keep going on with math. He breezed through for many years. Now that things aren't totally intuitive and easy, he hates math. Except on days when it is easy, then it's fine. 🙄

[Clemsondana]

If the problem is that he is being easily frustrated, don't try AoPS.  It's a great fix for kids who are bored but it requires a high frustration tolerance.  

[Brittany1116]

18 minutes ago, Clemsondana said:

If the problem is that he is being easily frustrated, don't try AoPS.  It's a great fix for kids who are bored but it requires a high frustration tolerance.  

That's kind of what I am thinking. He's not interested in more challenge at this time. 

[luuknam]

On 6/6/2023 at 1:40 PM, Brittany1116 said:

LOF (no, not enough practice)

Not sure which books you're talking about exactly, but the high school books have expanded editions (which is just the combination of the original books and the home companions (I think it was called)), and the Beginning and Advanced Algebra books also have Zillions of Practice Problems books you can buy as well. 

I don't see how the pre-algebra books would be a reasonable review of Alg 1 & 2 to keep things fresh. Depending on your kid, they might be fun and review *some* things and/or teach some basic other stuff covered in them (though there are a couple of questionable opinions in iirc the Pre-alg 2(?) with Econ book to do with the causes of the Civil War etc), but if you wanted to keep Alg 1 & 2 skills fresh you should probably use Beginning and Advanced Algebra and maybe Chemistry and Financial Choices. 

You could also try to put together a bunch of non-math that uses math (like aforementioned Chemistry and Financial Choices, but also possibly do some computer programming, especially if you get him to create computer models of things that use math). I would make sure that *some* math happens on a regular basis though, because it's pretty easy to forget a bunch of math.

[Brittany1116]

On 6/8/2023 at 6:35 PM, luuknam said:

Not sure which books you're talking about exactly, but the high school books have expanded editions (which is just the combination of the original books and the home companions (I think it was called)), and the Beginning and Advanced Algebra books also have Zillions of Practice Problems books you can buy as well. 

I don't see how the pre-algebra books would be a reasonable review of Alg 1 & 2 to keep things fresh. Depending on your kid, they might be fun and review *some* things and/or teach some basic other stuff covered in them (though there are a couple of questionable opinions in iirc the Pre-alg 2(?) with Econ book to do with the causes of the Civil War etc), but if you wanted to keep Alg 1 & 2 skills fresh you should probably use Beginning and Advanced Algebra and maybe Chemistry and Financial Choices. 

You could also try to put together a bunch of non-math that uses math (like aforementioned Chemistry and Financial Choices, but also possibly do some computer programming, especially if you get him to create computer models of things that use math). I would make sure that *some* math happens on a regular basis though, because it's pretty easy to forget a bunch of math.

Thanks for the reminder that the Zillions books exist. I was really thinking (likely false memory) that LOF asserted that PREalgebra isn't really a thing; it's algebra or it's not. In my mind, it's actually algebra, but I'd have to look at the books again. Also, he would be working through Kahn, which presents a variety of approaches and he isn't wholly opposed to. 

I know nothing about math outside of Algebra and geometry. I am open to checking out any other types of math presented. I don't know what number theory is and I am not great at probability but I can outsource most anything! 😉

[stripe]

I don’t believe in a math gap year. Strongly discourage taking a year off from math. Most kids get rusty after the summer.

Do something fun or interesting, and different. In addition to counting and probability, number theory, or other discrete math topics, “Mathematics: A Human Endeavor” is a great book. I used it with one of my kids in 7th grade, who combined it with self-directed learning of using an abacus and a slide rule, which worked well with the chapter on logarithms. Understanding logarithms is very useful.

There’s a lot of MEP stuff on probability and also sequences and series, which you could fish out from various years, or consult their Jamaican program, which is arranged topically. CIMT (which does MEP) also has some supplemental material that could give you ideas, e.g. codes and other everyday things.

https://www.cimt.org.uk/menus/resources.htm

If you really want to be away from textbooks or anything vaguely traditional, you could also have a lot of fun with cryptography, math puzzles, and mathematical art, but another skill would be learning how to write computer programs to solve math problems, like in these two No Starch Press books: “Math Adventures with Python” and “Doing Math With Python.”

Also the Murderous Math series by Kuantan Poskitt and other similar books for kids might be worth looking in to (some of the Murderous Maths books will likely be too low of a level, but others may be of interest). 

[luuknam]

On 6/9/2023 at 6:39 PM, Brittany1116 said:

Thanks for the reminder that the Zillions books exist. I was really thinking (likely false memory) that LOF asserted that PREalgebra isn't really a thing; it's algebra or it's not. In my mind, it's actually algebra, but I'd have to look at the books again. Also, he would be working through Kahn, which presents a variety of approaches and he isn't wholly opposed to. 

He very well might have written that in one of the books - prealgebra really is a mixture of advanced arithmetic and basic algebra. The books aren't a good review for algebra 1 & 2 though because they only use the most basic of algebra there is, like, the general idea that you can have equations with letters in them. From what I remember, the prealgebra books don't teach things like factoring (that's in Beginning Algebra) and they definitely don't teach things like logarithms (Advanced Algebra), and a huge variety of other topics. There's a reason the beginning and advanced algebra books are the first big books in the series - they really do cover a lot of material.

Khan would be much better as a review than LOF prealgebra, and I agree that a variety of approaches is good. My youngest is pretty happy with Danica McKellar's Hot X: Algebra Exposed and says she gives some tricks that aren't in LOF, but her book isn't a full review of Alg 1 & 2 either (not even a complete review of Alg 1, I think). She also uses girly examples of real life uses for algebra, which neither of my sons mind(ed), but, ymmv. 

[daijobu]

On 6/10/2023 at 6:51 PM, stripe said:

I don’t believe in a math gap year. Strongly discourage taking a year off from math. Most kids get rusty after the summer.

 

 

I agree with this and @stripe's suggestions for other math.  To that I might add a regular go at a math contest like an AMC 8 which are freely available here.  

[Brittany1116]

So I am ready to pull thr trigger on AOPS Intro Alg. It seems a bit like Kahn in book form and he didn't hate the placement test, which basically confirms a fit at that level. It says it is recommended after some algebra experience, and I feel like he'll gain some confidence before moving on. So I am thinking of using that this year instead of Saxon A2 and deciding later where to go after that. Thoughts? 

[Brittany1116]

So I am ready to pull thr trigger on AOPS Intro Alg. It seems a bit like Kahn in book form and he didn't hate the placement test, which basically confirms a fit at that level. It says it is recommended after some algebra experience, and I feel like he'll gain some confidence before moving on. So I am thinking of using that this year instead of Saxon A2 and deciding later where to go after that. Thoughts? 

[Malam]

Don't forget to check out https://artofproblemsolving.com/alcumus for practice; you can change the difficulty settings if the AoPS textbook problems are getting too much and he wants to slow down.

[stripe]

With my limited experience with the general Khan Academy website, which is what I think you’re referring to, Khan Academy and AOPS seem (to me) very different in many ways. 

[carrierocha]

On 6/10/2023 at 8:51 PM, stripe said:

There’s a lot of MEP stuff on probability and also sequences and series, which you could fish out from various years, or consult their Jamaican program, which is arranged topically. CIMT (which does MEP) also has some supplemental material that could give you ideas, e.g. codes and other everyday things.

Do you know which levels of MEP's traditional program are rearranged int he Jamaican program? I know I could cross-check myself, but thought you might be familiar. Years 7-9?

[kiwik]

On 6/7/2023 at 10:19 AM, Brittany1116 said:

That's kind of what I am thinking. He's not interested in more challenge at this time. 

Though the self paced pre algebra didn't do that too much.  How about AOPS c&P or NT? Or the free English one whose name escapes me.

[BusyMom5]

I just ran across this thread and hope you found a good solution.   My suggestion would be to slow down and redo Al1 with another curriculum. I don't think it's a hating math thing.  I think it has a lot more to do with maturity and not being ready to write out as much is required or spend that much time on math problems.   In this case,  Al2 will not be a good fit at all.