Majoring in mathematics

[ddcrook]

It's becoming clear to dd16 and me that she will most likely major in math. I would like to show her what the options are for fields of study and careers. What are some resources that can help us with this?

[kirstenhill]

Following along! My DS16 is also planning a math major.  He wants to double major though in math and something else yet-to-be-determined.  Possibilities so far for his other major include computer science, physics, and chemistry.   I feel like that may also help determine his plans career wise also.  
 

I’ve had my eyes on this book: https://www.amazon.com/BIG-Jobs-Guide-Mathematical-Statisticians/dp/161197528X/ref=sr_1_1?crid=SPJIATVSTNTG&keywords=big+jobs+guide&qid=1683601240&sprefix=Big+jobs+gui%2Caps%2C117&sr=8-1

I’m not sure how interesting it would be for a high school student so I haven’t ordered it for DS.

 

[El...]

Same boat here for dd15. 

[EKS]

Some careers that have been suggested to the folks in my program:  data scientist, actuary, and (of course) teaching.

[daijobu]

A little off topic, but I came across a NY Times inteview of graduates and their regrets about college:  https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/03/27/opinion/college-choice-regrets.html

In particular I was moved by the first interview with the math major:

"When I was applying to college, there was a news article about the best colleges that were outside the Ivy League. Skidmore was one of the “new Ivies” in the article. I liked Skidmore when I visited. It seemed to be strong academically, and it was a small school, which I thought would be uniformly better than a large school.  It wasn’t until I went to graduate school and worked at several universities that I realized Skidmore had left me severely underprepared. I still feel like I’m catching up. There were some pretty big holes in my mathematics major. People I know who studied math at other schools took twice as many courses as I took in mathematics, because I was filling my credits with liberal arts classes.   When I was 17, I thought well-roundedness was really attainable only at a small liberal arts school. If I could go back in time, I would have gone to a medium or larger school and tried to make the well-rounded thing happen on my own."

Benjamin Boniece
Mr. Boniece is a postdoctoral researcher. He attended Skidmore College from 2007 to 2011.

Not exactly what Skidmore had in mind for an article in the NY Times.  Also, it really contradicts the notion that "Where you go is not who you'll be."  Maybe not, but it can have an impact.  

[ddcrook]

12 hours ago, kirstenhill said:

Following along! My DS16 is also planning a math major.  He wants to double major though in math and something else yet-to-be-determined.  Possibilities so far for his other major include computer science, physics, and chemistry.   I feel like that may also help determine his plans career wise also.  
 

I’ve had my eyes on this book: https://www.amazon.com/BIG-Jobs-Guide-Mathematical-Statisticians/dp/161197528X/ref=sr_1_1?crid=SPJIATVSTNTG&keywords=big+jobs+guide&qid=1683601240&sprefix=Big+jobs+gui%2Caps%2C117&sr=8-1

I’m not sure how interesting it would be for a high school student so I haven’t ordered it for DS.

 

I'm going to need that book! One of dh's degrees is operations research, and he thinks dd might like that field. I'm just not sure because she has said that she just wants to sit in a room and do math. When dh worked in OR he said that he should absolutely love his job, but he didn't because of all the other junk that comes from working in a business. But I suppose all jobs have to deal with junk.

[kirstenhill]

(Deleted due to missing quote...see next post). 😁

Edited May 9, 2023 by kirstenhill
Duplicate

[kirstenhill]

2 hours ago, ddcrook said:

I'm going to need that book! One of dh's degrees is operations research, and he thinks dd might like that field. I'm just not sure because she has said that she just wants to sit in a room and do math. When dh worked in OR he said that he should absolutely love his job, but he didn't because of all the other junk that comes from working in a business. But I suppose all jobs have to deal with junk.

Interesting! Other than the title of this book, I had never even heard of operations research!  

[ddcrook]

30 minutes ago, kirstenhill said:

Interesting! Other than the title of this book, I had never even heard of operations research!  

The Wikipedia article gives a good overview. If you look under the Problems Addressed tab, you'll see a list of the kinds of things they do in OR. Your ds might want to take a look and see if any of that interests him. 

[Malam]

6 hours ago, ddcrook said:

I'm just not sure because she has said that she just wants to sit in a room and do math

Sounds like actuarial science is a good field for her if she's into probability and statistics. Being an actuary starts with passing the P exam, which is basically at the level of an introductory probability course. 

If she's interested in more theoretical math, then she might find this interesting: https://web.evanchen.cc/napkin.html

[Not_a_Number]

I was a math major and also have a math PhD. 

My career is now "homeschool mom" with some freelancing on the side, so that's probably not what you want to hear 😂. But I do have lots of experience with what people wind up doing with a math major! 

[lmrich]

Dh  majored  in math.  He  got his masters in electrical engineering (4.0 at Georgia Tech). Several  of his co-workers were/are always amazed  that  he could 'do the  math' and is more skilled than most. 

[lewelma]

My ds was a math major, and now focusing in quantum computing. 

Edited May 21, 2023 by lewelma

[Porridge]

a few of our math major friends:

—one is now in Human Resources (and highly respected / sought after by the local startups)

—one went on to do a PhD in machine learning and is now in eng at a tech company at a startup

—one is a software eng at a large tech co

[Frances]

On 5/9/2023 at 8:53 AM, daijobu said:

A little off topic, but I came across a NY Times inteview of graduates and their regrets about college:  https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/03/27/opinion/college-choice-regrets.html

In particular I was moved by the first interview with the math major:

"When I was applying to college, there was a news article about the best colleges that were outside the Ivy League. Skidmore was one of the “new Ivies” in the article. I liked Skidmore when I visited. It seemed to be strong academically, and it was a small school, which I thought would be uniformly better than a large school.  It wasn’t until I went to graduate school and worked at several universities that I realized Skidmore had left me severely underprepared. I still feel like I’m catching up. There were some pretty big holes in my mathematics major. People I know who studied math at other schools took twice as many courses as I took in mathematics, because I was filling my credits with liberal arts classes.   When I was 17, I thought well-roundedness was really attainable only at a small liberal arts school. If I could go back in time, I would have gone to a medium or larger school and tried to make the well-rounded thing happen on my own."

Benjamin Boniece
Mr. Boniece is a postdoctoral researcher. He attended Skidmore College from 2007 to 2011.

Not exactly what Skidmore had in mind for an article in the NY Times.  Also, it really contradicts the notion that "Where you go is not who you'll be."  Maybe not, but it can have an impact.  

Likely any flagship or large state U with a solid math department offering PhDs would be better than a LAC for a student who was already pretty advanced in math, as it would enable a student to take graduate classes when they ran out of undergraduate ones. Plus, there are likely to be far more undergrad math classes.

I’m a big believer in general in LACs, including for students interested in academic grad school. And many have excellent track records of sending students to top grad programs. But I think there are cases where a high school student is so advanced that a LAC may not serve them well due to the lack of advanced and grad school classes.

[Frances]

On 5/9/2023 at 7:55 AM, EKS said:

Some careers that have been suggested to the folks in my program:  data scientist, actuary, and (of course) teaching.

There are also lots of jobs where the title is just analyst, including many government jobs.Some will be better or worse fit for a particular person based on what subject matter is of internet to them and other college majors or minors. More and more many of these jobs are probably becoming data scientist type positions as big data is now almost everywhere.

[Malam]

2 hours ago, Frances said:

Likely any flagship or large state U with a solid math department offering PhDs would be better than a LAC for a student who was already pretty advanced in math, as it would enable a student to take graduate classes when they ran out of undergraduate ones. Plus, there are likely to be far more undergrad math classes.

But an LAC would likely allow for independent study on topics that even a large uni might not have dedicated classes in; not to mention the benefits of a 1:1 student:teacher ratio for independent study, research, preferred status for REUs, etc.

Also, a large Uni is more likely to have a long, structured sequence of prerequisites required before a student is allowed to take graduate classes. (e.g I know one that required students to have junior standing and a 4.0)

Edited May 22, 2023 by Malam

[Frances]

11 hours ago, Malam said:

But an LAC would likely allow for independent study on topics that even a large uni might not have dedicated classes in; not to mention the benefits of a 1:1 student:teacher ratio for independent study, research, preferred status for REUs, etc.

Also, a large Uni is more likely to have a long, structured sequence of prerequisites required before a student is allowed to take graduate classes. (e.g I know one that required students to have junior standing and a 4.0)

My husband and I are both products of LACs and he used to teach at one, so we are huge fans. But independent study is dependent on both professor availability and knowledge and most LAC math departments are fairly small. Also, the on-campus research choices available are going to be much more limited. If chosen carefully, I do believe in general they are often the best choice for students wanting to later pursue a PhD, and their track record demonstrates this. But not all LACs are created equal and some students could arrive on campus with virtually no math classes left to take.

At least here, I know both of the major state universities have willingly accommodated highly gifted high school math students, so I would imagine they would be quite welcoming to similarly situated undergrads when it comes to taking grad classes. And I know several students, including my son, who were taking university grad STEM classes by their sophomore year with only the equivalent of two one year sequences in their major completed (one during high school and one during their freshman year in college). Of course, if this is of interest to a prospective student, they need to research their options carefully.

 

[Mom_to3]

I would think lots of destinations : Finance, Engineering, Economics, various Applied Math/Science; if intent to go in grad school in a math adjacent program, make sure you've taken some courses in that field to show your interest. There are quite a few who end up teaching (thankfully also some with a PhD in math teach at the best private high schools!). At small LACS, I agree one would need to check out the courses offered - some courses may only be offered every few years. And even a small grad program can make it more likely to explore math that the grad level for the truly outstanding students.

Edited May 23, 2023 by Mom_to3

[8filltheheart]

On 5/21/2023 at 10:53 PM, Malam said:

But an LAC would likely allow for independent study on topics that even a large uni might not have dedicated classes in; not to mention the benefits of a 1:1 student:teacher ratio for independent study, research, preferred status for REUs, etc.

Also, a large Uni is more likely to have a long, structured sequence of prerequisites required before a student is allowed to take graduate classes. (e.g I know one that required students to have junior standing and a 4.0)

These are questions to ask as an applicant before you make your decision as to which college to attend.  One of my sons graduated from high school having completed almost the equivalent of math and physics minors. He had worked in one of his professors labs and had also attended SSP.  When he interviewed depts, he wanted to know how they would allow him to progress in course sequence and how UG research worked within their U.  It became very evident which schools did not appeal to him, and many of them were high ranking institutions.  He had the dean at one top school tell him that he had more direct research experience than most of their UGs and that if he attended there he would be assigned to a grad student bc their research openings were limited.  Being actively involved in research was one of his main criteria.

Another school's UG dept advisor mocked his coursework and told him that he needed to slow down and learn something and that he was used to having class valedictorians sitting in his classes crying bc they didn't understand anything about physics.  Ds asked him where their grads ended up going after graduation and all he had was a blank look.  (No doubt.  We never looked back after walking out of that dept!)

Where my ds ended up attending, the dean of the dept told ds that ds reminded him of himself when he was ds's age.  He took ds on a tour and introduced him to a large number of profs and discussed their research.  My ds was able to take grad level classes early on.  He took 400 level electromagnetic wave theory his 2nd semester of his freshman yr.  He started research his first semester of freshman yr.   He also met with one of the professors and told him about his self-designed astronomy courses that he had done during high school and they allowed him to use those homeschooled classes to meet course prereqs in order to enroll in upper level astronomy courses.

Anyway, the pt is......students should interview depts and not make decisions based on rankings or other people's opinions.  (Ds's UG yrs were wonderful.  He says based on what he witnessed in grad school that rankings definitely do not reflect the teaching going on in UG classrooms. Simply put, he believes his UG education at a much lower ranked U was superior.)

Edited May 23, 2023 by 8filltheheart

[Roadrunner]

I know many LACs do well with PhD placement. Yet when we looked at the highly ranked one for physics major, they only had (if I remember correctly) 10 required classes for a major including math. Not even comparable what larger schools require. And lots of upper division courses were offered sparingly. Yet I know kids manage to enter top graduate programs anyway. I almost feel DS will work much harder for lesser outcome  at a large U.

I was told math could potentially be used for finance careers as well. And now some schools offer math degrees with computer science focus (mathematics of computation). Still trying to figure those out, but could be a way to go into tech career path. 

Edited May 23, 2023 by Roadrunner

[Frances]

5 hours ago, 8filltheheart said:

 

Anyway, the pt is......students should interview depts and not make decisions based on rankings or other people's opinions.  (Ds's UG yrs were wonderful.  He says based on what he witnessed in grad school that rankings definitely do not reflect the teaching going on in UG classrooms. Simply put, he believes his UG education at a much lower ranked U was superior.)

I’m not at all surprised to hear about your son’s experience. The most common comment I hear from people I know who attended top ranked universities for STEM PhDs is that they feel sorry for the undergrads in their department because their own undergrad experience was just so much better. And this is from people who attended a variety of undergrads, including both universities and LACs, but not top ranked universities.

I agree that thorough research and interviews are the best approach to make sure the school chosen matches a student’s goals and background.

[Not_a_Number]

4 hours ago, Frances said:

I’m not at all surprised to hear about your son’s experience. The most common comment I hear from people I know who attended top ranked universities for STEM PhDs is that they feel sorry for the undergrads in their department because their own undergrad experience was just so much better. And this is from people who attended a variety of undergrads, including both universities and LACs, but not top ranked universities.

I agree that thorough research and interviews are the best approach to make sure the school chosen matches a student’s goals and background.

Interesting. I did my PhD ages ago, but at least back then, that's not what I was hearing from classmates. I don't think I felt that way myself, either. 

That being said, I didn't go to a top-rated college (I went to college in Canada, for one thing) and I got a great undergraduate education. The brand name definitely isn't the same thing as good teaching. (On the other hand, I think my peers would have probably been more interesting at higher ranked places. And there would have probably been more uniformity in how good the classes in different departments were.)

Anyway, pros and cons.  

[lewelma]

On 5/22/2023 at 3:53 PM, Malam said:

Also, a large Uni is more likely to have a long, structured sequence of prerequisites required before a student is allowed to take graduate classes. (e.g I know one that required students to have junior standing and a 4.0)

Do your research. None of my ds's top 3 picks required him to take a structured sequence of prereqs for math to get into grad classes - MIT, CMU, and U of M. 

Also agreeing with 8 about interviewing the department.  My ds was a bit hesitant to go to CMU because they had 2 streams of math students. There were about 15 top students that took all their classes together, and ds was a bit concerned about the ramifications for commaraderie in the department when there are 2 clear levels. However, they had an excellent weekly study group for the Putnam exams, and DS would also have an AMAZING mentor who would meet with him every week and help him to be more than just a math kid. (ds did get a full ride here, too bad it came 2 days *after* we agreed to MIT and said no to CMU. It would have saved us a ton of money). 

We also found out through interviewing that U of M was amazingly collaborative.  A couple years before we visited there, the department got in trouble for having like 60 professors and 60 students. They were told they had to get their student numbers way up or lose staff. So they surveyed the students and asked what they wanted, and then they implemented the suggestions.  There were weekly pizza afternoons with the professors where the actually professors came to chat, a separate undergraduate lounge for math students where they could just hang out, and weekly professor presentations on their research aimed at undergrad level of understanding, amazingly unusally undergrad math classes, etc.  We were gobsmacked at how awesome the department was. (too bad they didn't give ds any money and out of state tuition was crazy high). 

This was all 5 years ago. But the point is, a lot of stuff is not said in the published lit, and you need to go in person and ask the questions.

Edited May 24, 2023 by lewelma

[ddcrook]

On 5/20/2023 at 8:31 PM, Not_a_Number said:

I was a math major and also have a math PhD. 

My career is now "homeschool mom" with some freelancing on the side, so that's probably not what you want to hear 😂. But I do have lots of experience with what people wind up doing with a math major! 

Of course that's what I want to hear! Dd and I highly support motherhood!

 

Edited May 24, 2023 by ddcrook

[ddcrook]

On 5/23/2023 at 7:17 AM, 8filltheheart said:

These are questions to ask as an applicant before you make your decision as to which college to attend.  One of my sons graduated from high school having completed almost the equivalent of math and physics minors. He had worked in one of his professors labs and had also attended SSP.  When he interviewed depts, he wanted to know how they would allow him to progress in course sequence and how UG research worked within their U.  It became very evident which schools did not appeal to him, and many of them were high ranking institutions.  He had the dean at one top school tell him that he had more direct research experience than most of their UGs and that if he attended there he would be assigned to a grad student bc their research openings were limited.  Being actively involved in research was one of his main criteria.

Another school's UG dept advisor mocked his coursework and told him that he needed to slow down and learn something and that he was used to having class valedictorians sitting in his classes crying bc they didn't understand anything about physics.  Ds asked him where their grads ended up going after graduation and all he had was a blank look.  (No doubt.  We never looked back after walking out of that dept!)

Where my ds ended up attending, the dean of the dept told ds that ds reminded him of himself when he was ds's age.  He took ds on a tour and introduced him to a large number of profs and discussed their research.  My ds was able to take grad level classes early on.  He took 400 level electromagnetic wave theory his 2nd semester of his freshman yr.  He started research his first semester of freshman yr.   He also met with one of the professors and told him about his self-designed astronomy courses that he had done during high school and they allowed him to use those homeschooled classes to meet course prereqs in order to enroll in upper level astronomy courses.

Anyway, the pt is......students should interview depts and not make decisions based on rankings or other people's opinions.  (Ds's UG yrs were wonderful.  He says based on what he witnessed in grad school that rankings definitely do not reflect the teaching going on in UG classrooms. Simply put, he believes his UG education at a much lower ranked U 

 I don't know whether to laugh or cuss at the dean's "slow down and learn something" comment. Some people really don't understand that some students are motivated by passion and are not merely collecting credits. Sounds like your ds needed physics, and I'm so glad that you were able to find the resources to fill his need. I feel like that's my situation with dd and math.

[Mom_to3]

On 5/23/2023 at 9:39 PM, lewelma said:

Do your research. None of my ds's top 3 picks required him to take a structured sequence of prereqs for math to get into grad classes - MIT, CMU, and U of M. 

 

May I ask how they would allow a student to place into grad classes? I imagine there are no official placement tests at those levels (too few students who'd take them). Could people just talk to the professors? My department is quite large, and it's risky to override prereqs because most students overestimate what they can do.

It is possible to be a big fish in a small pond and get a lot of attention by faculty, more so than some of the very highly ranked places where faculty care most about research and grad students. But yes, if there are simply not enough classes offered, that will still be an issue and the peers won't be quite the same. A (not tippy-top but still very good) university with a small graduate department (too few PhD students for the number of faculty) might work well in that regard.

Also, look at class sizes.  A class of 50+ is quite different from one with 10-20 students. Will most of your interactions be with grad TAs or faculty?  I've even had the pleasure of teaching a custom made (grad level) course to one undergrad student (who promptly ended up in the top PhD department in my field). That won't happen on a regular basis, because the class would get cut.

[lewelma]

1 hour ago, Mom_to3 said:

May I ask how they would allow a student to place into grad classes? I imagine there are no official placement tests at those levels (too few students who'd take them). Could people just talk to the professors? My department is quite large, and it's risky to override prereqs because most students overestimate what they can do.

I only know MIT. DS had to talk to the professor after class, explain his background, and get permission. The prof would challenge students that they thought were not prepared. The attitude was that students know their own capability, and could self place. Drop date was very very late into the semester, so if a kid was in over their head, they could pull out without impact to their transcript. DS self placed into 8 classes without prereqs out of the 10 required for his major. 

Edited May 25, 2023 by lewelma

[Malam]

10 hours ago, Mom_to3 said:

I've even had the pleasure of teaching a custom made (grad level) course to one undergrad student (who promptly ended up in the top PhD department in my field). That won't happen on a regular basis, because the class would get cut.

What kind of college was this at? Being able to have a custom-made class taught one on one seems much better than even an independent study

[8filltheheart]

1 hour ago, Malam said:

What kind of college was this at? Being able to have a custom-made class taught one on one seems much better than even an independent study

Not @Mom_to3, but my ds took at least 1 class like that that I am aware of at Bama.  I'm trying to remember the details, but I think had something to do with astrobiology or maybe galaxy formation (I don't remember for sure).  FWIW, my kids have found that their depts at their large avg public schools have loved working with engaged students who really want to learn.

Edited May 25, 2023 by 8filltheheart

[Mom_to3]

3 hours ago, Malam said:

What kind of college was this at? Being able to have a custom-made class taught one on one seems much better than even an independent study

I don't want to identify the school, but admission rate below 10%%. It wasn't quite planned that way (and I am pretty sure in the long run a course with yearly enrollment of 1 would be cut by the admin). I would recommend looking at class sizes in the intended major, as well as class offerings.

Students can approach professors to create their own courses as well, but that tends to be more guided independent study.