AP Physics C or DE

[Doodlebug]

Hi all!  Thanks in advance for any input you can provide.  

DS will be a senior next year! His reach school is the Air Force Academy.  He will also apply to USMA and our state tech uni. 

He has a few DE credits, but no APs -- the online factor is not his thing. But, he will have the opportunity to take AP physics 2 through Wilson Hill next year.  The teacher (Dwelle) seems solid. 

I think the service academies like to see APs as they are more standardized.  However, an online AP science course as compared to an in person DE lab science?  That seems like splitting hairs.  

I'm also concerned about getting DS a seat in an AP exam after our experience of the same with the PSAT.  DE would be so much easier.  But, I don't want to cut corners if AP is really a better offering.  Curious to know the thoughts of those who know better than I do!  DE or AP physics 2???

Thanks!
Doodlebug

 

Edited February 8, 2023 by Doodlebug

[Guest]

I think it’s highly dependent on the quality of your local CC (or university) offering the DE.  If your local institution is known to offer high quality, robust academics, I would personally think and in-person learning experience (with labs) would just be a better experience.

I’m thinking through a similar issue for DD. Our local CC is known to be very, very solid, so we’re planning for DE. The only issue would be if DD can’t get the good prof (DE students have lowest priority for enrollment), then we might end up doing AP online.

Finding a seat for AP testing is a real issue in my area. It’s possible to get seats but they fill quickly and cost $$$$. So I agree iT’s important to make sure you can get a testing seat!

I’ve heard that it’s highly variable whether colleges/ universities prefer AP over DE. @Farrarmight have more wisdom than I do on this question….

[Farrar]

I think "highly variable" sums it up, lol. In general, if you're aiming super high, AP is a little better. But... I mean, it's splitting hairs for sure. Do what's best for your kid.

[regentrude]

My first question would be: has he taken an algebra based physics 1 course? 
If the answer is no, physics 2 is not recommended. He needs to be familiar with the concepts from the mechanics semester before applying them in e&m.

Most introductory physics courses don't have particularly good labs, so that wouldn't influence my decision.

ETA: What is his desired major? You mention tech uni. For any STEM fields besides biology, AP Physics 1 and 2 does not give college credit towards the major. 

 

Edited February 7, 2023 by regentrude

[Doodlebug]

2 hours ago, regentrude said:

My first question would be: has he taken an algebra based physics 1 course? 
If the answer is no, physics 2 is not recommended. He needs to be familiar with the concepts from the mechanics semester before applying them in e&m.

Most introductory physics courses don't have particularly good labs, so that wouldn't influence my decision.

ETA: What is his desired major? You mention tech uni. For any STEM fields besides biology, AP Physics 1 and 2 does not give college credit towards the major. 

 

 

Thanks so much for the helpful replies.  Very much appreciated!

He took algebra based Physics 1 in ninth - an accelerated course offered through Wilson Hill.  He loved the content.  Hated the online component.  

His stated area of interest has always been mechanical engineering, but I could see him going toward history or poli sci. 

At the root of my question -- DS is purely focused on a strong academy application.  College credit for a science course as a potential engineering student is a pipe dream, imo.  So no worries there.  

I guess the real queition is: if introductory physics courses are watered down, then is an AP really going to tip the balance on an application compared to a DE physics?  

Edited February 7, 2023 by Doodlebug

[8filltheheart]

I think for a ME major, they aren't going to care about physics 1/2 anyway.  They aren't credit worthy courses for engineering.  

[regentrude]

1 hour ago, Doodlebug said:

I guess the real queition is: if introductory physics courses are watered down, then is an AP really going to tip the balance on an application compared to a DE physics?  

Nah.. algebra based physics isn't a particularly rigorous achievement. (Mine did algebra based college physics as their 9th grade science).

Can't imagine admissions to be terribly impressed by that for a STEM major.

Edited February 8, 2023 by regentrude

[Doodlebug]

What science course would make sense then?  DS has a solid honors sci progression under his belt.  Derek Owens Comp science and DE calculus are on the list for next year. 

Thanks so much for the advice!

ETA: I now realize that I need to seek clarification from Wilson Hill about what exactly “AP Physics” entails.  I assumed AP physics 2 b/c the course title used to be “honors physics 2.”  But i suspect I may be mistaken.  🤦‍♀️Precalculus is a pre req for their current AP Physics course.  Maybe theyre offering AP Physics C? In any case, calculus based physics is the way to go it seems.  Sorry for the slow brain moment!  Im trying to sort courses while recovering from respiratory grossness.  😉

 

Edited February 8, 2023 by Doodlebug

[Roadrunner]

Our CC has a calculus based physics sequence for engineers. They use a standard textbook and in person labs make it really worthwhile. My DS took all three of those and scored a five on both physics C exams after self studying. So this is one way to go. 
I guess for a senior, the admissions won’t be able to see the scores, so I am not sure how much it would matter taking the AP course online. I would opt in for calculus based physics if you have a solid DE option and if your son can handle calculus. That would look better. 

[gstharr]

Physics Prep offers excellent online self paced  courses in AP Physics 1 &2, and AP Physics C. Go with physics c if he has calculus under his belt, or can take it concurrently.

[ElizabethB]

You need Calc based physics like people have said, either AP Calc C or at DE calc based engineering track physics. I don't think they will look that much different for the application, especially since they won't see exam scores until after application anyway. 

[Doodlebug]

Our community college has not offered calculus-based physics since covid AND their calculus instructor is not an option.  (Multiple students reported on RMP that he did not grade/return their work until a week before the final).  The fall course schedule has not yet been released, but I'm not hopeful based on the 2022-2023 schedule. 

So, with DE options out, I'm looking at APs, which is sad because DS would prefer an in person course.  I'm happy with Derek Owens for AP calculus.

Does anyone know of a live AP physics C course online?  

  

Edited February 10, 2023 by Doodlebug

[Roadrunner]

All I know is PA Homeschoolers class. It’s not live. They meet once every other week, but it’s mostly self study. I don’t know really if I would recommend it, but given no options….

Derek Owens is just calculus AB, I believe. I would let others chime in if it’s a good idea to do AB alongside physics C. I simply don’t know. 
Also, you don’t have to do both mechanics and E&M. You can just do mechanics stretched over a year if you wish. My kid is doing that. Just mechanics. 

[Doodlebug]

10 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

All I know is PA Homeschoolers class. It’s not live. They meet once every other week, but it’s mostly self study. I don’t know really if I would recommend it, but given no options….

Derek Owens is just calculus AB, I believe. I would let others chime in if it’s a good idea to do AB alongside physics C. I simply don’t know. 
Also, you don’t have to do both mechanics and E&M. You can just do mechanics stretched over a year if you wish. My kid is doing that. Just mechanics. 

Thank you for the advice.

Im so disappointed in our cc.  We live 5 min from a state uni and this should not be.  (The uni offers DE courses exclusively through local highschools - so not an option for homeschool students.)

Bummed.

[Alice]

21 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

All I know is PA Homeschoolers class. It’s not live. They meet once every other week, but it’s mostly self study. I don’t know really if I would recommend it, but given no options….

Derek Owens is just calculus AB, I believe. I would let others chime in if it’s a good idea to do AB alongside physics C. I simply don’t know. 
Also, you don’t have to do both mechanics and E&M. You can just do mechanics stretched over a year if you wish. My kid is doing that. Just mechanics. 

My son really liked the PA Homeschoolers Physics. He did the AP Physics C Mech one semester and the AP Physics C E&M the second semester with Dr. Kernion. They had a live meeting every other week and a pretty active discussion group and then a lot of self-study. I thought the labs were good and there seemed to be a fair amount of feedback and interaction for an online course. I will say my son liked self-paced classes and is a Math major now in college so it was a good fit for him. 

[Roadrunner]

25 minutes ago, Alice said:

My son really liked the PA Homeschoolers Physics. He did the AP Physics C Mech one semester and the AP Physics C E&M the second semester with Dr. Kernion. They had a live meeting every other week and a pretty active discussion group and then a lot of self-study. I thought the labs were good and there seemed to be a fair amount of feedback and interaction for an online course. I will say my son liked self-paced classes and is a Math major now in college so it was a good fit for him. 

This is very child dependent. Mine had the opposite reaction but he thrives on live classes. This is why “know your child” is a wise advice. 
 

[SoCal_Bear]

36 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

This is very child dependent. Mine had the opposite reaction but he thrives on live classes. This is why “know your child” is a wise advice. 
 

And this would be a bad match for my child. Live classes is a must. This seems like a need in the hs'ing world. 

Edited February 10, 2023 by calbear

[Doodlebug]

Yes, live classes are a real need, especially at this level.  My kid can self-study language and history.  But he knows he needs and prefers a knowledgeable live instructor for science and math. 

[regentrude]

1 hour ago, Doodlebug said:

We live 5 min from a state uni and this should not be.  (The uni offers DE courses exclusively through local highschools - so not an option for homeschool students.)

Unis offering DE through highschool is one thing - but don't they also allow enrollment in their regular courses independent of that? I would check and specifically ask.

[Malam]

On 2/7/2023 at 7:17 PM, 8filltheheart said:

I think for a ME major, they aren't going to care about physics 1/2 anyway.  They aren't credit worthy courses for engineering.  

They might care for course rigor, of which AP and/or DE can be a part. I imagine a military college will be especially eager to see external validation in the form of a DE grade or AP exam score, even if it's for a course that wouldn't earn college credit.

 

1 hour ago, regentrude said:

Unis offering DE through highschool is one thing - but don't they also allow enrollment in their regular courses independent of that? I would check and specifically ask.

Good point - there should be an option to enroll as a non-degree seeking student

I found these classes which meet once a week instead of once every other week: https://classes.areteem.org/course/index.php?categoryid=136

Edited February 10, 2023 by Malam

[Roadrunner]

If you do go with Areteem, please see if you can talk to somebody first how they are run. One of my kids did algebra based physics with them and it was literally just a lecture. Once a week at exact time the teacher would start to talk and then finish when class was done. There was no interaction, no discussions, not even grading or feedback on homework. I mean you could have just sit down and watched Walter Lewin on YouTube with better results. And it was a lot of $$$$. So maybe things changed by now. Maybe they have gotten better at running things. But before you spend all the money, make sure you know exactly what you will be getting. PAH physics is much, much better than Areteem if our past experience is still valid. 

Edited February 10, 2023 by Roadrunner

[daijobu]

5 hours ago, Alice said:

My son really liked the PA Homeschoolers Physics. He did the AP Physics C Mech one semester and the AP Physics C E&M the second semester with Dr. Kernion. 

My dd also liked Kernion at PAH.  She started first semester with Lanctot and then switched to Kernion for E&M, and was glad she did.  

[8filltheheart]

@Sebastian (a lady)Do you have any insight to this question for someone who wants to pursue an academy?  

[thegeyser]

I will say that my oldest son took AP Bio and AP Chem at Wilson Hill. He ended up with a 5 on AP Bio and a 3 on AP Chem. He is a biochem major, so his college would have made him repeat chem even if he'd gotten a 5. That said, he is prepared. He ended up getting a 100% on at least one of his exams this past semester. The lab portion was totally fine, despite the fact his only in-person lab was Apologia Biology at a co-op in 8th grade. I don't know anything about physics at WHA though. My next son is likely going to have to take AP Physics at the local high school, and that idea does not thrill me. There are so many better options out there, but he needs to have one in-person class that is not offered at our neighborhood school--and that is it. I would much rather he take it at Wilson Hill! (and this kid took baby bio at the CC and it was SO EASY 😞!) But I have been able to get seats for all my kids AP exams--even AP Latin during COVID (but required driving 50 minutes away to the next county).

 

Edited February 14, 2023 by thegeyser

[Sebastian (a lady)]

On 2/7/2023 at 3:10 PM, Doodlebug said:

Hi all!  Thanks in advance for any input you can provide.  

DS will be a senior next year! His reach school is the Air Force Academy.  He will also apply to USMA and our state tech uni. 

He has a few DE credits, but no APs -- the online factor is not his thing. But, he will have the opportunity to take AP physics 2 through Wilson Hill next year.  The teacher (Dwelle) seems solid. 

I think the service academies like to see APs as they are more standardized.  However, an online AP science course as compared to an in person DE lab science?  That seems like splitting hairs.  

I'm also concerned about getting DS a seat in an AP exam after our experience of the same with the PSAT.  DE would be so much easier.  But, I don't want to cut corners if AP is really a better offering.  Curious to know the thoughts of those who know better than I do!  DE or AP physics 2???

Thanks!
Doodlebug

 

@8filltheheart thanks for the tag.

A couple caveats.

The academies list recommended courses, but many candidates offered appointments exceed those minimums. This is also true at other selective colleges. 

There are four different AP Physics courses. 1 & 2 are algebra based. The C courses are calculus based. 

There are different types of college Physics courses. One semester survey courses (typically algebra based), multi-semester courses that might be algebra or calculus based. Then in depth courses for physics majors. (Backing away slowly and leaving further explanations to @regentrude 😁)

I start with this because it isn't only a question of AP or DE, but what level of physics the student would take. The title of the posts asks about Physics C vs DE, but your post talks about AP Physics 1 & 2.

You can look at the AP Credit Policy for the college you're considering for DE to see how they view equivalency. You could also compare the AP policy and the transfer database at civilian 4 years to see how other institutions view the DE credits available vs AP.

An academy is going to like seeing rigorous classes. AP is usually more challenging than honors. AP C is more challenging than AP 1 & 1. This is what most students have access to, so most who apply and are offered appointments would have AP. And as you mentioned, the scores give even more basis for comparison between students.

I wouldn't assume this means academies prefer AP though. A DE class presents a classroom setting, a live instructor (who might be willing to write a letter of recommendation), in person labs, and often a faster pace than an AP course that covers similar material in a year instead of a semester. (Some schools do one AP per year, stretching physics across two years.) A live, in person course can also calm concerns some observers have about homeschooling. 

On the other hand some CCs don't have a solid reputation. And an online CC course wouldn't be my first choice.

Probably not the clear cut suggestion you were looking for. Whichever option you go with, it may be worth a brief explanation why in your supporting documentation (either in the school profile or the counselor recommendation).

 

[Sebastian (a lady)]

As @regentrude mentioned, the nearby uni may have a very specific agreement with local high schools that stipulates who teaches and what credit the students get in their high school. 

They may have another name for private or homeschool students taking classes on campus.

[Doodlebug]

Thank you @Sebastian (a lady) !!!

Very helpful.  

[Doodlebug]

9 hours ago, Sebastian (a lady) said:

The title of the posts asks about Physics C vs DE, but your post talks about AP Physics 1 & 2.

Yxplanation why in your supporting documentation (either in the school profile or the counselor recommendation).

 

Thank you for your entire post, and yes, this thread is a bit all over the place because I didn't understand the varying levels of physics offered.  Thank you for explaining!  To update where we are... and sorry for the stream of consciousness posting!

DS would need calculus before taking the general physics (calc based) at the universities in our area who offer that as a year long course.  He's finishing up trig now.  If he finished trig early, he could launch into calculus and complete it this summer.  However...

DS travels for competitive policy debate - this is a non negotiable for him and it presents some real problems committing to a year long university course.  While Wilson Hill isn't offering the most competitive science, they have worked with us.  I wouldn't expect that level of flexibility from a uni science course, nor would I want DS missing those classes.  This may read as a minor loss of an extracurricular given DS's goal, but debate is where DS's friendships are, too.   

Perhaps more importantly, in digging through the course requirements for our tech school's engineering programs I have found that NO outside maths or sciences will transfer. So, my kid could push and scrape himself into the higher level coursework of an in person calc based science, but he would lose flexibility to pursue debate, friendships, and a fulfilling senior year.  Further, it puts him really far ahead of students who would enter the tech school with him - but with no real advantage to him outside of being uber prepared... that's of value, of course, but at the expense of other high school experiences?

We will probably pursue the garden variety science (AP physics 1&2) and AP calculus next year. If DS does not gain admission to an Academy, he can always take the higher level courses his freshman year and apply to the Academy again the following year.  I can see pros to that, too.  

Edited February 15, 2023 by Doodlebug

[Malam]

6 hours ago, Doodlebug said:

We will probably pursue the garden variety science (AP physics 1&2) and AP calculus next year

You can take Physics C at the same time as AP calculus. (Mech along with AB or Mech and E&M along with BC)

Edited February 15, 2023 by Malam

[Doodlebug]

44 minutes ago, Malam said:

You can take Physics C at the same time as AP calculus. (Mech along with AB or Mech and E&M along with BC

Thank you for repeating this. 

It got me thinking... DS struggles with too many online classes and so I try to limit those.  (Physics Prep is the only AP Physics C course I'm aware of.)  If instead of doing AP Calculus with Derek Owens, I'm able to secure an in-person calculus 1 course at the CC, I could see DS being able to do the physics prep AP Physics C course.  Hmmm!  Now to wait for the CC fall course schedule. 

Thanks for bearing with me and letting me rattle off all my concerns and limitations.  Things are getting sorted! 🙂 

Edited February 15, 2023 by Doodlebug

[Guest]

@DoodlebugI personally think you are right to prioritize debate, since that is where his passion and friends are. 

[Roadrunner]

1 hour ago, Malam said:

You can take Physics C at the same time as AP calculus. (Mech along with AB or Mech and E&M along with BC)

I know this is possible, but I wouldn’t personally do it. 

[rzberrymom]

2 hours ago, Roadrunner said:

I know this is possible, but I wouldn’t personally do it. 

I was thinking the same thing.

[Doodlebug]

Physics prep provides a math placement test for physics c, which I just went through. I *think* I could see the concurrent plan working if DS was starting calculus BC.  But I think AB needs to be under his belt before starting physics c.  

[Alice Lamb]

17 hours ago, Roadrunner said:

I know this is possible, but I wouldn’t personally do it. 

I did Mech and EM  BC as a senior concurrently with  AP Cal BC.  I felt I learned more multi-variable calculus than electricity and magnetism in the second part of the physics class.  Well, it made "Calculus 3" much easier in college, but I re-took the physics despite my univ being willing to give credit.