Help me choose a precalc course that has both adequate rigor and clear teaching!

[flmom79]

We are shifting away from a live online course provider for my high schooler, and therefore find ourselves in the position of doing our own curriculum selection.  I'm looking for something as well explained as the Saxon math books are, but with a sufficient coverage of precalculus material.  I don't really think that Saxon's Advanced Mathematics adequately covers precalculus topics in such a way as to set students up for success in calculus (if you have seen hard evidence to the contrary, let me know!), and the Prentice Hall precalculus book used by our older student through an online school seemed as if it would be opaque to someone without weekly access to a professional math teacher.  Can you give any suggestions?  NOT looking for online courses:).  

[cintinative]

Did you look at the High school homeschool math thread?

Would you consider Derek Owens (self-paced with videos, but you can do the grading)?

How strong are you in math yourself? I am facilitating precalc at home but it can be a lot. 

You can get videos for Larson Pre-Calculus but you would still need to determine which problem sets to assign, do grading, etc.  There are two sets of videos--one is from Houghton Mifflin and one is from Chalkdust. They both have Dana Mosely as the teacher. 

One way to look at precalculus books is to use archive.org. You can check out the different titles on the homeschool math thread and then look them up there. 

Full disclosure: I am selling the Larson Precalculus book and videos because we decided to use something else instead. 

 

[flmom79]

We are actually trying to avoid videos or any screen content ....we have had massive screen distraction issues.  I have personally had up through high school calculus, although I wasn't the strongest student at that level.  

[cintinative]

I would look at the high school math thread and ask questions based on that. What you want is a text that is good for self-teaching. I don't consider Larson or the book I am using (Brown's) particularly excellent for that.  I have had to supplement with videos for the Brown book.  Generally, Lial's is considered good for self-teaching. 

Here is the 6th edition:  https://www.amazon.com/Precalculus-6th-Margaret-L-Lial/dp/013421742X  The one linked in the attached thread is an earlier edition (because the thread is from 2015).  You would want the solution manual as well.  

Earlier editions are usually okay--I would ask in a separate thread just in case, if you decide to pursue this.  The fourth edition is available on archive.org if you want a detailed walk through (it's free to access):  https://archive.org/details/precalculus0000lial_f6s3

 

 

[LinRTX]

What do you plan on using for Calculus? We did Saxon through Calculus for 3 of my 4 children (the 4th went through the Advanced book). They all did well in their college math courses. And of those 3, in college they majored in EE, Information Science, and Math. But I did the teaching here. I did not just hand them the book. A few lessons I did let them do on their own, but the majority I taught.

[silver]

I've been considering Sullivan Precalculus for next year. The book gets reviews on Amazon that seem to claim it's a good book, but I haven't had a chance to sit down and look it over myself.
https://www.amazon.com/Precalculus-10th-Michael-Sullivan/dp/0321979079/

[Malam]

Axler and Cohen both have pretty rigorous precalculus books. You can review them at libgen.rs and use bookfinder.com when you're ready to buy a hardcopy. Also consider Stewart's text, although it might be a bit more "textbook-y"

[EKS]

I see that you're not looking for an online course provider, but I have to say that Derek Owens is excellent.  Really.

[Kristini2]

On 1/7/2023 at 6:41 PM, EKS said:

I see that you're not looking for an online course provider, but I have to say that Derek Owens is excellent.  Really.

My youngest is doing that course right now and is learning a lot. She just started in November/December, but it looks like she will be well prepared for AP or DE  calculus next fall. We use the parent graded option because she has "submit anxiety" and puts off sending her completed homework in for weeks if she has to send it to DO. (She just pushes through the submit anxiety for classes with deadlines and gets her work in on time, but for his classes with no deadlines just being able to give me completed work works a lot better for her and moves her through the classes a lot quicker.)

[silver]

On 1/3/2023 at 10:57 AM, silver said:

I've been considering Sullivan Precalculus for next year. The book gets reviews on Amazon that seem to claim it's a good book, but I haven't had a chance to sit down and look it over myself.
https://www.amazon.com/Precalculus-10th-Michael-Sullivan/dp/0321979079/

I took a look at the book finally. You can create a free account to look inside it here: https://archive.org/details/precalculus0000sull_a5f7/mode/2up

It seems to be a decent book for self-study. Each section starts by telling you to do some "are you prepared?" questions that make sure you have the background knowledge needed. Each of those problems refers you to a previous page of the text to review if you don't remember. Then there are explanations and examples. After each example, it tells you to work one of the odd problems from the end of the section (they are marked clearly to be easier to find) that is like the example. Each section also has a "retain your knowledge" area in the exercises. Answers to the "are you prepared?" problems are at the end of each section. Answers to odd exercises are in the back. Answers to both odd and even "retain your knowledge" problems, chapter review sections, and chapter tests are in the back.

Explanations are better than some of the precalculus books I've look at so far. There are plenty of both simple computation problems and word problems for each section. The book is not cluttered with random photos that only remotely relate to anything being covered, as many high school texts have. My main quibble is how much flipping around in the book a student would have to do to self study. 

1. open the book to the section you're on
2. flip to the start of the exercises to do the "are you prepared?" problems
3. flip to the end of the exercises to check your work
4. (possibly) flip to earlier in the book to review, if you weren't correct
5. flip back to the start of the section to start reading explanations and examples
6. after each example, flip to the exercises to do a similar problem
7. flip to the back of the book to check your work
8. flip back to where you were in the reading to read the next example
9. repeat steps 5-7 until you're done with the reading
10. do the exercises, flipping to the back to check answers as needed

I've seen math books that have the same idea (worked example and similar exercises matched together), but they're put so that the student works linearly through each section (flipping to the back to check work as needed). I like that approach for self study better.

[prairiewindmomma]

A few side points:

1. I think you're going to find teaching pre-calculus difficult if you are not solid in teaching math and you are requiring book-only resources.

2. I think you can deal with the screen issue with adequate supervision of your student. I think your end goal is probably a competent student ready for cc or university studies....and I'll tell you that 100% of my kids' cc and uni courses have been with electronic instruction and homework turn-in. There's no book and paper component.  If your student can't handle complete and unlimited access to screens, now, but I think you are short sighted if you turn away from them altogether.

3. If I were to point you to three levels of instruction: Larson Pre-Calculus is probably the most rigorous, Derek Owens is quite excellent, and Math-U-See is a get 'er done while still being adequate choice.  We've used all three. Oldest used Larson with dvds. Derek Owens was great (I recommend paying for the grading.) Math-U-See is great for the struggling student. None of these options are book only.....

[flmom79]

I was planning to possibly use Saxon as the Calculus course the following year -- I know it's not the most advanced selection, but as an endpoint in high school, I don't mind.  My concern was simply preparing the student for Calculus, and the Saxon Advanced Mathematics doesn't seem to do that.  But, LinRTX, did you use it successfully before your children did the Saxon Calculus?  

[LinRTX]

1 hour ago, flmom79 said:

LinRTX, did you use it successfully before your children did the Saxon Calculus

My children did the Advanced Math book before the Saxon Calculus. Saxon was my only curriculum. The only time I did anything else was when we were prepping for the PSAT and SAT. We used some specific math prep books for that just to see how the questions were presented from another source.

[missymeunier]

On 1/20/2023 at 4:51 PM, flmom79 said:

I was planning to possibly use Saxon as the Calculus course the following year -- I know it's not the most advanced selection, but as an endpoint in high school, I don't mind.  My concern was simply preparing the student for Calculus, and the Saxon Advanced Mathematics doesn't seem to do that.  But, LinRTX, did you use it successfully before your children did the Saxon Calculus?  

Hello 🙂. When you say Calculus is the endpoint for high school, do you mean that your kiddo is unlikely to take it in college?  If so, I’d go with something MathUSee.  It offers fairly clear instruction and teaches the basics.  You could watch the videos and then teach your kiddo.  If your child is likely to take Calc in college, I’d use something like Larson pre-calc and then Larson calculus.  I would not recommend Saxon Calculus, especially without the advanced math book for pre- calc.  I really don’t like the spiral approach for Calculus (imho, mastery works better at that level - spiral is great in earlier years).  Whichever path you choose, given that screens are an issue and that upper level math may be difficult for you to teach, possibly look into a tutor to work with your child once or twice a week.  It doesn’t have to be a math expert. Engineering juniors and seniors or recently graduated engineers might be a good possibility.  🙂. Best wishes 🙂

[8filltheheart]

I took cal in high school and in college and I found alg2 was pretty much my limit (no pun intended!l) in teaching math. DO for precal has been the best option I have found other than a private tutor.

His videos are based on the Sullivan text. He no longer requires the text and has workbooks to use instead. My 3rd child is going through the course right now and I am less satisfied with the just workbooks. I am now having her pull out the textbook (bc I already owned if from the other 2) and am making her review from the book at the end of a chpt. 

She is not as strong of a student as the other 2, so im not sure the exact differenc. But, she gets frustrated that on his tests there are things not covered but I found in the textbook. The extra review with the book is needed.

I have an advanced 7th grader. I will have her take the older textbook approach when she reaches precal vs the workbook so that it is just never a question.

[EKS]

1 hour ago, 8filltheheart said:

But, she gets frustrated that on his tests there are things not covered but I found in the textbook.

This is interesting.  I have not used the new version of the course.  I'd let DO know when things show up in the tests that are not covered in the course materials, particularly if they were covered in the old version.  Unless it is in the honors problems where this will happen from time to time, it may just be an oversight.

[8filltheheart]

54 minutes ago, EKS said:

This is interesting.  I have not used the new version of the course.  I'd let DO know when things show up in the tests that are not covered in the course materials, particularly if they were covered in the old version.  Unless it is in the honors problems where this will happen from time to time, it may just be an oversight.

It is mostly in the honors problems, but the older 2 never had issues solving the problems on the tests.  I think the problem sets in the text are slightly different and more encompassing.  Since I have had her reviewing the chapters, it has become less of an issue (those this last test had a couple.)

Edited January 22, 2023 by 8filltheheart

[EKS]

1 hour ago, 8filltheheart said:

Since I have had her reviewing the chapters, it has become less of an issue (those this last test had a couple.)

Now that you mention it, I remember that the precalculus tests sometimes drew directly on the chapter review problems in the book (which were not specifically assigned in the course).  

[flmom79]

3 hours ago, missymeunier said:

Hello 🙂. When you say Calculus is the endpoint for high school, do you mean that your kiddo is unlikely to take it in college?  If so, I’d go with something MathUSee.  It offers fairly clear instruction and teaches the basics.  You could watch the videos and then teach your kiddo.  If your child is likely to take Calc in college, I’d use something like Larson pre-calc and then Larson calculus.  I would not recommend Saxon Calculus, especially without the advanced math book for pre- calc.  I really don’t like the spiral approach for Calculus (imho, mastery works better at that level - spiral is great in earlier years).  Whichever path you choose, given that screens are an issue and that upper level math may be difficult for you to teach, possibly look into a tutor to work with your child once or twice a week.  It doesn’t have to be a math expert. Engineering juniors and seniors or recently graduated engineers might be a good possibility.  🙂. Best wishes 🙂

When you say you wouldn't recommend Saxon Calculus, especially without the advanced math book for pre-calc, do you mean that you'd find it more acceptable if the Saxon Advanced Math were used as the pre-calc curriculum?  I would actually have thought that would be MORE of a problem due to the limited scope of Saxon Advanced Math -- can you clarify please? 

[missymeunier]

12 minutes ago, flmom79 said:

When you say you wouldn't recommend Saxon Calculus, especially without the advanced math book for pre-calc, do you mean that you'd find it more acceptable if the Saxon Advanced Math were used as the pre-calc curriculum?  I would actually have thought that would be MORE of a problem due to the limited scope of Saxon Advanced Math -- can you clarify please? 

I have tutored a group of students in Saxon Calculus that had previously had the Adv. Math course.  They seemed well prepared for Saxon Calc.  I’d personally avoid them both.  The Adv. Math book is long and really hard to squeeze into one year (Saxon integrates the last 1/3 geometry credit into the Adv. Math book).  Many Saxon students take 1.5 or 2 years to complete it.  Saxon Calc. mixes derivatives and integrals into a spiral, and I’ve seen that confuse students.  I prefer (just my preference) to cover derivatives thoroughly before moving on to integration.  I find that less confusing for students and more similar to what they’ll do in college calculus.  🙂

[JumpyTheFrog]

DS is on chapter 2 of Derek Owen's precalculus course. From looking through the workbooks for both semesters, it looks like he covered about 80% of the material in Foerster's Algebra 2/Trig book. At least I now know why getting through that book took so long! (And that was with skipping the stats chapter.)

[8filltheheart]

6 minutes ago, JumpyTheFrog said:

DS is on chapter 2 of Derek Owen's precalculus course. From looking through the workbooks for both semesters, it looks like he covered about 80% of the material in Foerster's Algebra 2/Trig book. At least I now know why getting through that book took so long! (And that was with skipping the stats chapter.)

I disagree. My kids complete all but the last 1 or 2 chpts in the Foerster text and DO's precal class is not a simple yr of reviewed content.

[Malam]

On 1/11/2023 at 5:22 PM, silver said:

Explanations are better than some of the precalculus books I've look at so far

Can you name some that were worse than Sullivan?

[Malam]

3 hours ago, JumpyTheFrog said:

DS is on chapter 2 of Derek Owen's precalculus course. From looking through the workbooks for both semesters, it looks like he covered about 80% of the material in Foerster's Algebra 2/Trig book. At least I now know why getting through that book took so long! (And that was with skipping the stats chapter.)

Is he in the honors course?

3 hours ago, 8filltheheart said:

I disagree. My kids complete all but the last 1 or 2 chpts in the Foerster text and DO's precal class is not a simple yr of reviewed content.

Were yours in the honors version?

[silver]

48 minutes ago, Malam said:

Can you name some that were worse than Sullivan?

Off the top of my head, the UCSMP series ("Functions, Statistics, and Trigonometry" along with "Precalculus and Discrete Mathematics"). I wanted to like that series, because I like the scope, but the explanations were so sparse that I thought it would frustrate my student. 

[Lucy the Valiant]

Houghton / Dolciani here until precalc, where we switch to Derek Owens (honors). The kids say precalc is easy, but not review. 

[cintinative]

13 minutes ago, silver said:

"Precalculus and Discrete Mathematics"). I wanted to like that series, because I like the scope, but the explanations were so sparse that I thought it would frustrate my student. 

i think this is a very fair judgment. In some places the Brown text explains things well, in others it makes lots of assumptions about what you know.  My son just finished the section on inverse trig functions and that one was awful. I have had to supplement liberally with videos.

[cintinative]

@8filltheheart this is a tiny bit off topic but how does honors in Derek Owens' math work? For physics we just had extra homework, extra questions on tests, and extra sections to study.  Is it different for math?

[8filltheheart]

3 hours ago, Malam said:

Were yours in the honors version?

Yes.

2 hours ago, cintinative said:

@8filltheheart this is a tiny bit off topic but how does honors in Derek Owens' math work? For physics we just had extra homework, extra questions on tests, and extra sections to study.  Is it different for math?

I asked dd her perceived differences.  She said in the physics class he actually taught the honors content.  In the precal course, he doesn't, so she has to figure out how to solve them on her own.  She is only one of my kids to take his physics class (which she breezed through), and the older 2 girls who used his precal course used the textbook and not his workbooks.  This dd has had a harder time with the honors problems than her sisters, and I believe it is bc the other girls were being exposed to the concepts in the textbook.   I don't know if it was in this thread or a different one, but I posted that when my current 7th grader takes pre-cal in a couple of yrs, I will be having her use the textbook instead of the workbooks. 

[Lucy the Valiant]

2 hours ago, cintinative said:

@8filltheheart this is a tiny bit off topic but how does honors in Derek Owens' math work? For physics we just had extra homework, extra questions on tests, and extra sections to study.  Is it different for math?

This is how honors pre-calc (and calc) work. Interesting to note @8filltheheart's  comment on the textbook - I have not been tuned in enough to notice that, but we DO have the textbook, and I'm going to offer it to current precalc student.  (Thank you, 8!)

 

Edit to add, re: screen distraction: My current precalc student DOES sometimes struggle with screen distraction, so we have the computer set up where I can sit on a couch behind the student and glance up any time to see the screen; we did this at the student's request, and it has worked quite well. Different things for different folks, I do know - just an option that worked here. Student prefers non-screen school subjects in general, but has made the exception for DO.

Edited January 25, 2023 by Lucy the Valiant

[flmom79]

All the discussion of Derek Owens has been helpful!  I noticed that no one ever mentions Abeka Precalculus, which surprises me since Abeka seems to be a fairly dominant publisher in the homeschool market.  Has anyone had experience with that? 

[8filltheheart]

It is my understanding that Abeka's high school materials are geared toward having an active teacher vs. self-teaching/homeschool market.

[ScoutTN]

11 minutes ago, flmom79 said:

All the discussion of Derek Owens has been helpful!  I noticed that no one ever mentions Abeka Precalculus, which surprises me since Abeka seems to be a fairly dominant publisher in the homeschool market.  Has anyone had experience with that? 

I rarely see any Abeka curriculum other than early elementary (phonics or math) mentioned on the WTM boards.* Their flavor of fundamentalist Christianity is not particularly popular here. It is very school-y, as 8 said. I have homeschooled for 13 years in a city with a large homeschooling community and never met anyone who uses Abeka for anything. So how “dominant” it is varies widely with one’s particular circle. 
 

*Of course, there are many lurkers who don’t post what they use, so maybe there are more than it seems.

[8filltheheart]

I know one family who homeschooled all the way through with Abeka, but the did it through the enrollment option.  Unfortunately, I am also aware that their kids have really, really struggled with college (with 2 of the kids having to withdraw.)

[BlessedMomto3]

No experience with DO precalc, but just chiming in that we have had an issue with Algebra 1 honors problems on the homework and tests not being covered in the videos (although that didn’t happen til more than halfway through the semester it seems, but honestly a lot of it was review in the beginning for her so she just may not have noticed).  
 

My daughter is great at math, but not intuitive - she wants to be taught what to do and then she will.  DO emailed us the practice problems from the back of the textbook with the answer key for all the odd ones, and having those has helped immensely.  I ordered the textbook because of this.  Now that I know, I’ll plan on doing that for his other classes as well.