Natural remedies, therapies, meds, etc to help dh with arthritis??

[prairiewindmomma]

@sheryl, if he is dealing with liver or kidney concerns that is actually super relevant to diagnosis. First, many autoimmune diseases attack these organs, so if he doesn't know specifically why he has issues, keep that in mind. Second, there are some treatments that are better than others in terms of impacts to organs. On top of that, metabolic panels are typically run every 3 months so if there is mild impact, treatment can be changed and the negative impact can be reversed if necessary. So, I'm a person who cannot take ibuprofen, iykwim, but I can take RA drugs. 

[dsmith]

I'm pretty sure my joint issues are auto-immune related, but WFPB diet has made a big difference. I'm more likely to go off-diet when dairy is involved, and that really causes me a lot of pain for a few days afterwards. I started taking low-dose naltrexone for Hashimoto's and hoping it will help with MS. My joint pain is pretty much gone, after just over 3 weeks and two instances of dairy. (Damn you fresh mozzarella and peppermint stick ice cream!!) I was not expecting that at all, especially so soon after starting. 

[TravelingChris]

13 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

All my lab work and all of DH's (he has cancer) is done by LabCorp. We have no concerns at all.

I have had well known specialists ( like premiere person in the world internationally in juvenile osteoporosis in one case and the allergist who figured out the link between alpha gal allergy (( what makes people have anaphylactic reactions to mammal meat and sonetimes milk, etc too) and tick bites) in FL, VA, MD, TN. and AL all either tell me directly not to go there before I say anything or the last 2 just told me that they also never use Labcorp, because if I am aware, I now ask if they use it).

But everyone gets to choose what to o medically so if it works for you, thst is fine.

And for all I know, LabCorp may be fine w more common diseases.  But alpha-gal allergies, allergies delayed by 24 hours, juvenile osteoporosis, and less common lupus/ Sjogren's markers is less common too.

My dd2 has very rare side effects of some meds and rare symptomsof some of her diseases too.  So I do to others (gene thing I found- can't use calcium channel blockers because they raise my bp, instead of lowering).  My dh also has a rare genetic thing plus autoimmune disease-asthma. All have inherited autoimmunity and are Zebras, not horses, so we need to look for the best in medicine.

 

[Selkie]

32 minutes ago, dsmith said:

I'm pretty sure my joint issues are auto-immune related, but WFPB diet has made a big difference. I'm more likely to go off-diet when dairy is involved, and that really causes me a lot of pain for a few days afterwards. I started taking low-dose naltrexone for Hashimoto's and hoping it will help with MS. My joint pain is pretty much gone, after just over 3 weeks and two instances of dairy. (Damn you fresh mozzarella and peppermint stick ice cream!!) I was not expecting that at all, especially so soon after starting. 

Wow, that is great! There are loads of people with similar stories in my WFPB groups.

Since you mentioned MS, have you heard of Dr. Saray Stancic? She is a physician who suffered terribly from MS for years, then started eating WFPB and regained her health. Her life is now devoted to helping others through lifestyle medicine.

She has a documentary, Code Blue:

 https://www.codebluedoc.com 

and a book entitled What's Missing From Medicine: Six Lifestyle Changes to Overcome Chronic Illness:

https://smile.amazon.com/Whats-Missing-Medicine-Lifestyle-Overcome-ebook/dp/B085PTVR6H/ref=sr_1_1?crid=12ZONTAN7NU6Z&keywords=saray+stancic&qid=1668713757&sprefix=saray+stancic%2Caps%2C131&sr=8-1).

 

[prairiewindmomma]

39 minutes ago, dsmith said:

(Damn you fresh mozzarella and peppermint stick ice cream!!) I was not expecting that at all, especially so soon after starting. 

There are some lovely vegan peppermint ice creams out there—Nada Moo is a coconut based one dd tells me is good, but Breyer’s non-dairy mint (almond milk based) is also good.

[TravelingChris]

5 hours ago, sheryl said:

Thanks, Chris!  I'm now taking all these replies to present to him, research and start making changes.  I briefly mentioned in bed last night and he said he was interested.  I do NOT understand the autoimmune part though as it relates to arthritis.  I have much to learn.   The fake cartilage - maybe.   My sister learned a couple of years ago that Israel is developing a "mesh" something or other to be used for certain areas.  I wonder if it's the same thing.   

No, the fake cartilage is injected.  And since the next-door neighbor orthopedist I saw (didn’t realize he was my across the street neighbor) contradicted my rheumatologist about it being OA, he prescribed a dose pack of Medrol yo help the pain. I haven't kept up as to whether that stuff really helped since I spend more time on autoimmune diseases, versus OA.

 

[TravelingChris]

21 hours ago, alysee said:

My mom still takes ibuprofen  but going gluten free has helped her arthritis. She was on stronger meds before going gluten free.

Celiac disease can cause joint pains and yes, another autoimmune disease.

But for it yo be diagnosed, you can't be gluten free until the gastro doctor okays it. Because the diagnosis requires looking at changes in the intestinal system and being gluten free will heal those changes but you really want yo know if it ix celiac because a) you have to be super careful then and b) most people w one autoimmune disease pick up more on the way.

[sheryl]

5 hours ago, prairiewindmomma said:

Yes. There are a number of tests that can be done.  I'm linking you to arthritis.org's page on testing because I think it is a nice summary:

https://www.arthritis.org/diseases/more-about/testing-for-rheumatoid-arthritis

Sometimes doctors will try to run the tests themselves. Primary care doctors aren't particularly great at diagnosis. So, I'm going to warn you up front that if someone says, "Well, given his age it's likely that it's osteoarthritis...." without doing screening or running only an ESR or c-rp is a doctor not worth their salt. It can take a long time to get in with a rheumatologist, so some screening at the primary level can be a good thing, but go in to the appointment prepared to ask questions and push for a good screening, iykwim.  

I don't know if your dh is one to read and do research, but a lot of good information is on arthritis.org, and he can educate himself a bit more. 

 

OK, prairiewindmomma, I just loaded your link.  We will be reading through that.  Thanks so much! 

[sheryl]

5 hours ago, prairiewindmomma said:

@sheryl, if he is dealing with liver or kidney concerns that is actually super relevant to diagnosis. First, many autoimmune diseases attack these organs, so if he doesn't know specifically why he has issues, keep that in mind. Second, there are some treatments that are better than others in terms of impacts to organs. On top of that, metabolic panels are typically run every 3 months so if there is mild impact, treatment can be changed and the negative impact can be reversed if necessary. So, I'm a person who cannot take ibuprofen, iykwim, but I can take RA drugs. 

His labs come back good!  I don't think I remember any reason for concern because his numbers were a good number in the ranges.  I'll look again.   Thanks!

[sheryl]

5 hours ago, dsmith said:

I'm pretty sure my joint issues are auto-immune related, but WFPB diet has made a big difference. I'm more likely to go off-diet when dairy is involved, and that really causes me a lot of pain for a few days afterwards. I started taking low-dose naltrexone for Hashimoto's and hoping it will help with MS. My joint pain is pretty much gone, after just over 3 weeks and two instances of dairy. (Damn you fresh mozzarella and peppermint stick ice cream!!) I was not expecting that at all, especially so soon after starting. 

Fresh mozzarella YES! I add that to our homemade pizza.  What I glean from these replies and a pp mentioned the same I believe and that is not all meds work for all people.  After reading these we will definitely need to map out a strategy.   Will send him to the dr.   I need to reread to see if primary dr is ok or if we can expect he'll be sent to a specialist.    Would rather not have the high cost of specialist (dh will insist on this) IF there are tests pcp can administer.  

4 hours ago, TravelingChris said:

I have had well known specialists ( like premiere person in the world internationally in juvenile osteoporosis in one case and the allergist who figured out the link between alpha gal allergy (( what makes people have anaphylactic reactions to mammal meat and sonetimes milk, etc too) and tick bites) in FL, VA, MD, TN. and AL all either tell me directly not to go there before I say anything or the last 2 just told me that they also never use Labcorp, because if I am aware, I now ask if they use it).

But everyone gets to choose what to o medically so if it works for you, thst is fine.

And for all I know, LabCorp may be fine w more common diseases.  But alpha-gal allergies, allergies delayed by 24 hours, juvenile osteoporosis, and less common lupus/ Sjogren's markers is less common too.

My dd2 has very rare side effects of some meds and rare symptomsof some of her diseases too.  So I do to others (gene thing I found- can't use calcium channel blockers because they raise my bp, instead of lowering).  My dh also has a rare genetic thing plus autoimmune disease-asthma. All have inherited autoimmunity and are Zebras, not horses, so we need to look for the best in medicine.

 

Chris, I remember you mentioned some of the above in a reply to another conversation.  Now this is making more sense.  Are you still seeing this top rated specialist?  Do they offer a protocol and send your back to the pcp to "continue" on with the specialists' orders?

4 hours ago, Selkie said:

Wow, that is great! There are loads of people with similar stories in my WFPB groups.

Since you mentioned MS, have you heard of Dr. Saray Stancic? She is a physician who suffered terribly from MS for years, then started eating WFPB and regained her health. Her life is now devoted to helping others through lifestyle medicine.

She has a documentary, Code Blue:

 https://www.codebluedoc.com 

and a book entitled What's Missing From Medicine: Six Lifestyle Changes to Overcome Chronic Illness:

https://smile.amazon.com/Whats-Missing-Medicine-Lifestyle-Overcome-ebook/dp/B085PTVR6H/ref=sr_1_1?crid=12ZONTAN7NU6Z&keywords=saray+stancic&qid=1668713757&sprefix=saray+stancic%2Caps%2C131&sr=8-1).

 

Are the 2 conditions linked?

[sheryl]

2 hours ago, TravelingChris said:

No, the fake cartilage is injected.  And since the next-door neighbor orthopedist I saw (didn’t realize he was my across the street neighbor) contradicted my rheumatologist about it being OA, he prescribed a dose pack of Medrol yo help the pain. I haven't kept up as to whether that stuff really helped since I spend more time on autoimmune diseases, versus OA.

 

Well, that's interesting.  You did have this done?   But, OA is not AI????

[Selkie]

25 minutes ago, sheryl said:

Are the 2 conditions linked?

Do you mean a link between MS and other autoimmune conditions?  I believe so, but others on this thread would probably have more knowledge about that than me. I only mentioned MS because of the poster who said she has MS and has also started eating WFPB, which made me think of Dr. Stancic.

[alysee]

5 hours ago, TravelingChris said:

Celiac disease can cause joint pains and yes, another autoimmune disease.

But for it yo be diagnosed, you can't be gluten free until the gastro doctor okays it. Because the diagnosis requires looking at changes in the intestinal system and being gluten free will heal those changes but you really want yo know if it ix celiac because a) you have to be super careful then and b) most people w one autoimmune disease pick up more on the way.

Oh I know. I actually have Celiac Disease. I was diagnosed 8 years ago after a colonoscopy and endoscopy. I knew it was autoimmune and I knew RA was autoimmune so I thought my mom should try going glutenfree.

Edited November 18, 2022 by alysee

[GoVanGogh]

7 hours ago, Selkie said:

Wow, that is great! There are loads of people with similar stories in my WFPB groups.

Since you mentioned MS, have you heard of Dr. Saray Stancic? She is a physician who suffered terribly from MS for years, then started eating WFPB and regained her health. Her life is now devoted to helping others through lifestyle medicine.

She has a documentary, Code Blue:

 https://www.codebluedoc.com 

and a book entitled What's Missing From Medicine: Six Lifestyle Changes to Overcome Chronic Illness:

https://smile.amazon.com/Whats-Missing-Medicine-Lifestyle-Overcome-ebook/dp/B085PTVR6H/ref=sr_1_1?crid=12ZONTAN7NU6Z&keywords=saray+stancic&qid=1668713757&sprefix=saray+stancic%2Caps%2C131&sr=8-1).

 

Thanks for that link. I had forgotten that I bought that book a year ago. Pulling it out to read now 

[GoVanGogh]

I have had joint and muscle pain all of my life. As a kid, my parents always told it was growing pains, though I later found out they refused doctor’s recommendation to take me to specialist. At 15, I was hospitalized for malnutrition and severe dehydration. I was (most likely incorrectly) diagnosed with lactose intolerance. At 40, I was diagnosed with celiac, along with Hashimoto’s thyroid and several other autoimmune disorders. My vitamin d level at that time was 18, despite having the darkest tan of my life. (That was first vit d lab ordered.) At 50, I was diagnosed with young onset Parkinson’s and fibromyalgia. (As an aside, since young adult, doctors have ordered inflammation labs and always been shocked that it was 3x acceptable range, despite being very fit/active and vegetarian, though - in hindsight -  I ate a lot of dairy.) About 18 months ago, I decided to take what may seem like extreme measures to try to control my pain. My family doctor, neurologist and rheumatologist were all on board, though they all told me to accept needing prescription pain meds. I do also seek advice from a nutritionist. All that background to say - I think getting to root cause of pain is essential, even if it means seeing multiple specialists and ruling out a number of possible causes. For years, I felt like I was healthy because I could run half marathons and I ate a fairly clean diet. But underneath, I had tons of uncontrolled inflammation, coupled with stress of homeschooling a special needs kiddo. I don’t know what has helped me the most or if it is a combination of many things, but I just got back from a week vacation where my diet and routine were shot and my pain level has been bad again. 
What I have been doing: hot yoga in infrared studio 2-4x a week, yin/restorative yoga with meditation, about half of my diet is raw vegan with lots of leafy greens, vegetarian, no dairy, no processed foods, almost no sugar, lots of cherries and berries, vegan collagen and omega-3. 
I make a mix of raw sunflower seeds, pumpkin seeds and walnuts, with hemp seed and flax seed and sprinkle it on my salads. I follow a mix of Dr Gregor and Dr Fuhrman. (Sorry, I think I might have misspelled both of their names.) I try to get at least one serving of cruciferous vegetable in a day. 
edited to add: daily probiotic and kombucha. I see a psychiatrist due to the mental aspects of Parkinson’s and she was recently telling me how kombucha is great for digestive health which helps with mental health and how it can help reduce inflammation, so sort of stacks the benefits. 

Edited November 18, 2022 by GoVanGogh

[TravelingChris]

3 hours ago, sheryl said:

Well, that's interesting.  You did have this done?   But, OA is not AI????

No, I did not get fake cartilage. I got a Medrol dose pack and the orthopedist said the rheumatologist was wrong.  The rheumatologist who I ended up w after I fired that one and  the Labcorp idiot, was shocked that although I was doing so badly, the previous rheumatologist I had for 3 years , never put me on the full dose of my main anti-arthritis drug.

And no, OA is considered wear and tear arthritis.  It is the arthritis you get from some injuries and from daily living. An activity like running marathons is not only wearing down your knee joints, ankle joints, etc but also putting you at higher risk for bad heaty issues.  Even running for  much shorter distances  will increase your chances both OA and thevheart trouble.

[TravelingChris]

1 hour ago, alysee said:

Oh I know. I actually have Celiac Disease. I was diagnosed 8 years ago after a colonoscopy and endoscopy. I knew it was autoimmune and I knew RA was autoimmune so I thought my mom should try going glutenfree.

That makes perfect sense.  Both dd2 and ds were considered by psychiatrists have medication-resistant depression.  They both failed quite a number of drugs. I don't think the genetic tests were available when ds was having major issues and then he was  an adult not on our insurance.  But dd2 was a junior in college when she returned from study abroad in New Zealand in late November.  We were all very concerned about her changing from going to days w more light yo going yo days w less light.  All of us have SAD.  I got her to see my psychiatrist and she prescribed the genetic tests which antidepresant would work.  Turned out it was the class of tryptillines.  Nortriptilline was the best and this class is one of the earliest developed anti-depressants and no one had tried any of the drugs on either of them.  DS didn't need to have more tests.  That class of drugs would work for him.

Yes, I really understand  it was unnecessary for her to have those tests.

[TravelingChris]

6 minutes ago, TravelingChris said:

 

OP, one important fact that hasn't been mentioned is that instead of it being a joint problem, it could be a tendon, ligament or bursa problem.. 

Oh and I am too tired to look up the web page of maybe video  but you csn distinguish OA and RA when it occurs in the knees because the with one disease the knees are pointed to each other and the other they splay out. I just can't remember which disease does what.

[Laura Corin]

If it does turn out to be osteoarthritis,  my experience is that a good amount of movement helps - it's tempting not to move a joint that's painful, but movement really does help.

The other thing that I have found helpful is doing exercises that strengthen the muscles around the joint to support it.

[sheryl]

10 hours ago, GoVanGogh said:

I have had joint and muscle pain all of my life. As a kid, my parents always told it was growing pains, though I later found out they refused doctor’s recommendation to take me to specialist. At 15, I was hospitalized for malnutrition and severe dehydration. I was (most likely incorrectly) diagnosed with lactose intolerance. At 40, I was diagnosed with celiac, along with Hashimoto’s thyroid and several other autoimmune disorders. My vitamin d level at that time was 18, despite having the darkest tan of my life. (That was first vit d lab ordered.) At 50, I was diagnosed with young onset Parkinson’s and fibromyalgia. (As an aside, since young adult, doctors have ordered inflammation labs and always been shocked that it was 3x acceptable range, despite being very fit/active and vegetarian, though - in hindsight -  I ate a lot of dairy.) About 18 months ago, I decided to take what may seem like extreme measures to try to control my pain. My family doctor, neurologist and rheumatologist were all on board, though they all told me to accept needing prescription pain meds. I do also seek advice from a nutritionist. All that background to say - I think getting to root cause of pain is essential, even if it means seeing multiple specialists and ruling out a number of possible causes. For years, I felt like I was healthy because I could run half marathons and I ate a fairly clean diet. But underneath, I had tons of uncontrolled inflammation, coupled with stress of homeschooling a special needs kiddo. I don’t know what has helped me the most or if it is a combination of many things, but I just got back from a week vacation where my diet and routine were shot and my pain level has been bad again. 
What I have been doing: hot yoga in infrared studio 2-4x a week, yin/restorative yoga with meditation, about half of my diet is raw vegan with lots of leafy greens, vegetarian, no dairy, no processed foods, almost no sugar, lots of cherries and berries, vegan collagen and omega-3. 
I make a mix of raw sunflower seeds, pumpkin seeds and walnuts, with hemp seed and flax seed and sprinkle it on my salads. I follow a mix of Dr Gregor and Dr Fuhrman. (Sorry, I think I might have misspelled both of their names.) I try to get at least one serving of cruciferous vegetable in a day. 
edited to add: daily probiotic and kombucha. I see a psychiatrist due to the mental aspects of Parkinson’s and she was recently telling me how kombucha is great for digestive health which helps with mental health and how it can help reduce inflammation, so sort of stacks the benefits. 

GoVan Gogh, You are inspiring to seek answers amidst your challenges.  When you mentioned your specialists were all on board - are you referring to your routine?   Was this to replace meds?  Did you see an improvement and how much time elapsed between your new routine and your vacay where you noticed your pain level was bad again?

[sheryl]

10 hours ago, TravelingChris said:

No, I did not get fake cartilage. I got a Medrol dose pack and the orthopedist said the rheumatologist was wrong.  The rheumatologist who I ended up w after I fired that one and  the Labcorp idiot, was shocked that although I was doing so badly, the previous rheumatologist I had for 3 years , never put me on the full dose of my main anti-arthritis drug.

And no, OA is considered wear and tear arthritis.  It is the arthritis you get from some injuries and from daily living. An activity like running marathons is not only wearing down your knee joints, ankle joints, etc but also putting you at higher risk for bad heaty issues.  Even running for  much shorter distances  will increase your chances both OA and thevheart trouble.

Yes, neither one of us are runners.   I tried "light" running (not super fast) years ago but it was a short period of time and less than a mile.   LOL!  I determined I didn't want issues in the future and continued my walking which I did before and still continue.   Glad that you/your care team found a good solution to help!  That must have been frustrating!  

9 hours ago, TravelingChris said:

OP, one important fact that hasn't been mentioned is that instead of it being a joint problem, it could be a tendon, ligament or bursa problem.. 

Oh and I am too tired to look up the web page of maybe video  but you csn distinguish OA and RA when it occurs in the knees because the with one disease the knees are pointed to each other and the other they splay out. I just can't remember which disease does what.

We are going to research and take these replies to start with.  There is much to learn.  But, the starting point is with the doctor, right?  As I asked GoVanGogh's reply - is there lab work to determine amount/source of inflammation.   The pcp will send to specialist?  At what point?  DH will not want to be bounced around like a tennis ball.  He'll get discouraged.  

6 hours ago, Laura Corin said:

If it does turn out to be osteoarthritis,  my experience is that a good amount of movement helps - it's tempting not to move a joint that's painful, but movement really does help.

The other thing that I have found helpful is doing exercises that strengthen the muscles around the joint to support it.

Laura,  thanks for that.  As I read your reply I realized/remembered dh sits a lot for his job.  He works in office downtown and at home (split any given week) and he sits all the time at home.  But, he is very (has always been) active.  We both used to ski just only a bit in WI, MI.  DH used to ski in Colorado during college spring breaks.  He rakes/blows leaves (and we have A LOT).  Climbs ladders, this and that.  He didn't complain when we were younger so some of it may be that "wear and tear" mentioned that occurs over time.  

GoVanGogh mentioned "inflammation labs".   Does this mean they can run a lab to determine amount/source of inflammation?  

[GoVanGogh]

47 minutes ago, sheryl said:

GoVan Gogh, You are inspiring to seek answers amidst your challenges.  When you mentioned your specialists were all on board - are you referring to your routine?   Was this to replace meds?  Did you see an improvement and how much time elapsed between your new routine and your vacay where you noticed your pain level was bad again?

They were onboard with diet changes and exercise routine. I wanted to be able to reduce the amount of meds I was taking. After a few months, I dropped the prescription pain med and within a year was able to reduce the amount of two meds rheumatologist prescribed. The ultimate goal is to stall the progression of the Parkinson’s. My neurology appointment last month was very positive in that regard. It was the first appointment that showed improvement of symptoms. I am currently due for new rheumatology labs, but six months ago my labs showed that my inflammation levels were down to normal range, for the first time ever. My rheumatologist told me at that appointment that she wished all of her patients would do what I am doing but too many just want a pill. 
I started the infrared heated hot yoga in late February of 2021 and abruptly went vegetarian in March of that year, right after a spring break vacation where I ate entirely too much steak and pork bbq. The other changes have been gradual, as I research more and have the ability to add or subtract from my routine. I have some photos of myself from May of that year, compared to recent photos, and the difference is visually shocking, but I also feel that difference. Physically and mentally, I can feel the difference. I would say all of 2021 was hard. I was feeling some little shifts, small improvements. In October of 2021 I had a big setback when I had a bad stomach bug, then another setback in December when I had Covid. In February/March of this year, I started seeing some bigger changes, less pain, could move easier. I would say it was a year of small improvements with some setbacks along the way before I could really feel like I owned the improvements. Our vacation was just last week, which also coincided with a major weather shift. I am not doing well with the wet, chilly weather. We had some cold weather a month ago that set of my pain, but I pulled out of it well. Then last week - vacation, out of routine, some poor food choices, wet cold weather. It took me down hard, but I am picking back up. Yesterday was a bit better and I woke up this morning with less pain. 
 

I wanted to echo was some others upthread have said about it being important to move, even with pain. Human nature is to not do something if it hurts, but there is a difference between injury pain and tightness/stiffness sort of pain. For muscle/tendon tightness/stiffness sort of pain, it is so important to move and keep those joints lubricated. The spine can move in so many directions, but as we age we tend to only move our spine in one or two directions. It is so important to slowly work on moving our spine in all directions. I do gentle yoga stretches every morning. Even just walking from bedroom to kitchen, can stretch as I walk and work out that stiffness. It doesn’t need to be a formal, on the mat, full yoga routine. 

[BlsdMama]

On 11/16/2022 at 9:39 PM, sheryl said:

Thanks, Alysee, for the reply.  IB has it's place but it's not meant for long-term use.  Really would like to help in another way.  

Home Again, that's good.  I just asked DH the other day if he'd eat yogurt.  He says he doesn't like it but yogurts have come a long way in flavor, texture and health benefits.  Worth trying again.  I think I'll buy a few and have him taste test.  Thanks!

Kombucha, real sauerkraut, kimchi, and kefir, including coconut water are other options. Pomegranates also nurture healthy gut bacteria. You might get a lot out of Dr. Wahl’s book
 

But it is really important to be evaluated and discern what type of arthritis. Rheumatoid arthritis is nothing to play with and needs medication. 

[sheryl]

34 minutes ago, GoVanGogh said:

They were onboard with diet changes and exercise routine. I wanted to be able to reduce the amount of meds I was taking. After a few months, I dropped the prescription pain med and within a year was able to reduce the amount of two meds rheumatologist prescribed. The ultimate goal is to stall the progression of the Parkinson’s. My neurology appointment last month was very positive in that regard. It was the first appointment that showed improvement of symptoms. I am currently due for new rheumatology labs, but six months ago my labs showed that my inflammation levels were down to normal range, for the first time ever. My rheumatologist told me at that appointment that she wished all of her patients would do what I am doing but too many just want a pill. 
I started the infrared heated hot yoga in late February of 2021 and abruptly went vegetarian in March of that year, right after a spring break vacation where I ate entirely too much steak and pork bbq. The other changes have been gradual, as I research more and have the ability to add or subtract from my routine. I have some photos of myself from May of that year, compared to recent photos, and the difference is visually shocking, but I also feel that difference. Physically and mentally, I can feel the difference. I would say all of 2021 was hard. I was feeling some little shifts, small improvements. In October of 2021 I had a big setback when I had a bad stomach bug, then another setback in December when I had Covid. In February/March of this year, I started seeing some bigger changes, less pain, could move easier. I would say it was a year of small improvements with some setbacks along the way before I could really feel like I owned the improvements. Our vacation was just last week, which also coincided with a major weather shift. I am not doing well with the wet, chilly weather. We had some cold weather a month ago that set of my pain, but I pulled out of it well. Then last week - vacation, out of routine, some poor food choices, wet cold weather. It took me down hard, but I am picking back up. Yesterday was a bit better and I woke up this morning with less pain. 
 

I wanted to echo was some others upthread have said about it being important to move, even with pain. Human nature is to not do something if it hurts, but there is a difference between injury pain and tightness/stiffness sort of pain. For muscle/tendon tightness/stiffness sort of pain, it is so important to move and keep those joints lubricated. The spine can move in so many directions, but as we age we tend to only move our spine in one or two directions. It is so important to slowly work on moving our spine in all directions. I do gentle yoga stretches every morning. Even just walking from bedroom to kitchen, can stretch as I walk and work out that stiffness. It doesn’t need to be a formal, on the mat, full yoga routine. 

Thanks a bunch for that!  That is so good you are seeing improvements!  You listen to your body's needs and you make changes for the better.  I read from your reply that you "tweaked" your technique.   It takes time.  What is a normal number for inflammation?

4 minutes ago, BlsdMama said:

Kombucha, real sauerkraut, kimchi, and kefir, including coconut water are other options. Pomegranates also nurture healthy gut bacteria. You might get a lot out of Dr. Wahl’s book
 

But it is really important to be evaluated and discern what type of arthritis. Rheumatoid arthritis is nothing to play with and needs medication. 

Yes, thanks!  We have much work to do.  One dr. dismissed him saying there is nothing that can be done.  But, with the "combined" knowledge and experience on this forum I wanted to post to glean from others.   Sure enough there is more to this condition than what I realized and after dh reads these replies and we study up a bit, we need to start our plan of action.   Hopefully in time he'll feel better.  

[dsmith]

20 hours ago, Selkie said:

Wow, that is great! There are loads of people with similar stories in my WFPB groups.

Since you mentioned MS, have you heard of Dr. Saray Stancic? She is a physician who suffered terribly from MS for years, then started eating WFPB and regained her health. Her life is now devoted to helping others through lifestyle medicine.

She has a documentary, Code Blue:

 https://www.codebluedoc.com 

and a book entitled What's Missing From Medicine: Six Lifestyle Changes to Overcome Chronic Illness:

https://smile.amazon.com/Whats-Missing-Medicine-Lifestyle-Overcome-ebook/dp/B085PTVR6H/ref=sr_1_1?crid=12ZONTAN7NU6Z&keywords=saray+stancic&qid=1668713757&sprefix=saray+stancic%2Caps%2C131&sr=8-1).

 

Thanks for the links! I've never heard of Dr. Stancic before that I remember. And I have enough kindle credits that the ebook is only $5. I guess I know what I'll be doing this weekend! 🙂

[dsmith]

12 hours ago, GoVanGogh said:

I have had joint and muscle pain all of my life. As a kid, my parents always told it was growing pains, though I later found out they refused doctor’s recommendation to take me to specialist. At 15, I was hospitalized for malnutrition and severe dehydration. I was (most likely incorrectly) diagnosed with lactose intolerance. At 40, I was diagnosed with celiac, along with Hashimoto’s thyroid and several other autoimmune disorders. My vitamin d level at that time was 18, despite having the darkest tan of my life. (That was first vit d lab ordered.) At 50, I was diagnosed with young onset Parkinson’s and fibromyalgia. (As an aside, since young adult, doctors have ordered inflammation labs and always been shocked that it was 3x acceptable range, despite being very fit/active and vegetarian, though - in hindsight -  I ate a lot of dairy.) About 18 months ago, I decided to take what may seem like extreme measures to try to control my pain. My family doctor, neurologist and rheumatologist were all on board, though they all told me to accept needing prescription pain meds. I do also seek advice from a nutritionist. All that background to say - I think getting to root cause of pain is essential, even if it means seeing multiple specialists and ruling out a number of possible causes. For years, I felt like I was healthy because I could run half marathons and I ate a fairly clean diet. But underneath, I had tons of uncontrolled inflammation, coupled with stress of homeschooling a special needs kiddo. I don’t know what has helped me the most or if it is a combination of many things, but I just got back from a week vacation where my diet and routine were shot and my pain level has been bad again. 
What I have been doing: hot yoga in infrared studio 2-4x a week, yin/restorative yoga with meditation, about half of my diet is raw vegan with lots of leafy greens, vegetarian, no dairy, no processed foods, almost no sugar, lots of cherries and berries, vegan collagen and omega-3. 
I make a mix of raw sunflower seeds, pumpkin seeds and walnuts, with hemp seed and flax seed and sprinkle it on my salads. I follow a mix of Dr Gregor and Dr Fuhrman. (Sorry, I think I might have misspelled both of their names.) I try to get at least one serving of cruciferous vegetable in a day. 
edited to add: daily probiotic and kombucha. I see a psychiatrist due to the mental aspects of Parkinson’s and she was recently telling me how kombucha is great for digestive health which helps with mental health and how it can help reduce inflammation, so sort of stacks the benefits. 

What brand of vegan collagen are you using? I wish I could do more raw, but at this time my stomach can't handle it. I also have swallowing issues which have improved now that my thyroid is smaller, but still there from the MS, so I have to be careful with certain foods. I've been doing a lot of smoothies and soups. I also love Dr. Gregor and Dr. Fuhrman. Your seed/nut mix sounds like it would be good on oatmeal! 

[GoVanGogh]

2 hours ago, dsmith said:

What brand of vegan collagen are you using? I wish I could do more raw, but at this time my stomach can't handle it. I also have swallowing issues which have improved now that my thyroid is smaller, but still there from the MS, so I have to be careful with certain foods. I've been doing a lot of smoothies and soups. I also love Dr. Gregor and Dr. Fuhrman. Your seed/nut mix sounds like it would be good on oatmeal! 

I use SunWarrior. They are one of my go-to brands for plant based items. 

edited to add: I hear you on the stomach. I spent one full year (as I was being bounced between specialists and then getting Parkinson’s diagnosis) living on gluten free toast and plain rice. That was all my stomach could tolerate. I had to slowly work up to even tolerating simple fruits and vegetables. I worked with a dietician during that time period. It was somewhat money wasted because I felt like she was giving me advice I already knew, but it was probably good to have that encouragement. After Covid lockdown, I happened to meet a nutritionist that is certified in plant-based eating and he was amazing. I still work with him. I still tweak, as there are some things that will bother my stomach, but overall most of my digestive issues have calmed down. I started shopping at a local farmers market that only allows locally grown/produced items and trying one new food a week. I think that probably helped me the most, as I was willing and able to try a wider range of items. 

Edited November 18, 2022 by GoVanGogh

[Harriet Vane]

13 hours ago, Laura Corin said:

If it does turn out to be osteoarthritis,  my experience is that a good amount of movement helps - it's tempting not to move a joint that's painful, but movement really does help.

The other thing that I have found helpful is doing exercises that strengthen the muscles around the joint to support it.

This is absolutely true, whether the issue is OA or tendon/ligament weakness or hypermobility. I have both OA and hypermobility. When joints move, that sparks a synovial fluid bath throughout the joint, which is what heals and rejuvenates connective tissue and all the stuff in the joint space generally. Our joints need it. Staying still means no fresh fluid bath, which leads to more stiffness and arthritic changes. Building muscle supports the joint as well, which takes some of the stress away from the connective tissue and bones. I have joint pain throughout my body, and I have found over many years that there is absolutely nothing that is anywhere near as effective as a solid and consistent exercise program.

[Harriet Vane]

@sheryl You asked up-thread about starting with the doctor and when a pcp would refer to a specialist. 

There is no contest between a specialist and a pcp. Go directly to a good rheumatologist, preferably one who is very attuned to exercise therapy. You need the rheumatologist for the specifics of what exactly is going on with dh (what type of arthritis, etc.). The level of testing and expertise they bring to the table leaves the pcp in the dust. 

Do your research when you choose, however. My first rheumatologist became very impatient with me when I wanted to talk more about exercise and lifestyle changes. She literally said, in so many words: "If you don't want pills from me, then I don't understand why you're here." !!! That's not to say a prescription might not be necessary or beneficial. There are many conditions that MUST be addressed with a prescription (like RA). (And that's why you need a rheum, because if your dh has something that is autoimmune like RA then he needs to start with the appropriate prescription therapy.) My condition, however, cannot be fixed and so all she had to offer me were pain pills. I did not want to go down a path of dependence on pain pills without first trying other pain mitigation measures. I'm glad I held the line on that, as I find that exercise, heat, ice, massage, and MAT adjustments are far more effective. 

[Pawz4me]

2 hours ago, Harriet Vane said:

 

There is no contest between a specialist and a pcp. Go directly to a good rheumatologist,

In my area it's highly unlikely someone with "just" mild/moderate OA would ever get in to see a rheumy. There aren't enough of them to go around. Anyone here needs (at a minimum) several months' documented history of symptoms and lab work that shows elevated inflammation markers, and then they need a referral to a rheumy. No rheumy takes patients w/o a referral.

[Happy2BaMom]

The book, Arthritis Interrupted: Featuring the Arthritis Healing Diet, written by an MD who battled severe osteoarthritis, completely interrupted (the title really is true) the osteoarthritis that hit me pretty hard at 40. More than a decade later now, I’m symptom free. 
 

Eta: I can’t link the book for some reason, but it’s still for sale on Amazon. 

Edited November 19, 2022 by Happy2BaMom

[sheryl]

1 hour ago, Pawz4me said:

In my area it's highly unlikely someone with "just" mild/moderate OA would ever get in to see a rheumy. There aren't enough of them to go around. Anyone here needs (at a minimum) several months' documented history of symptoms and lab work that shows elevated inflammation markers, and then they need a referral to a rheumy. No rheumy takes patients w/o a referral.

This may be the case here.   I will call next week or week after and ask if a referral is needed.  I'm still not "fully" difference b/t the 2 types.   I haven't had time to research this yet as my schedule has been busy but b/t dh and I we will start this week.  I do know he's trying to avoid unnecessary testing.  He's of the opinion that the dr's are not much help when he's mentioned it to them in the past couple of years.   Pawz, how is your dh?  Have I asked that before on another topic?

21 minutes ago, Happy2BaMom said:

The book, Arthritis Interrupted: Featuring the Arthritis Healing Diet, written by an MD who battled severe osteoarthritis, completely interrupted (the title really is true) the osteoarthritis that hit me pretty hard at 40. More than a decade later now, I’m symptom free. 
 

Eta: I can’t link the book for some reason, but it’s still for sale on Amazon. 

Thanks for this.  I found the book!  Which type do you have?  That is incredible you no longer have symptoms!   Appreciate it!

[Pawz4me]

12 minutes ago, sheryl said:

Pawz, how is your dh?

He's doing reasonably okay. The current treatment he's on has kept him stable for two years now. His treatment choices are much less clear cut when this one fails (which it will do, sooner or later), but we try not to worry about the future too much. Thanks for asking!

[Happy2BaMom]

53 minutes ago, sheryl said:

This may be the case here.   I will call next week or week after and ask if a referral is needed.  I'm still not "fully" difference b/t the 2 types.   I haven't had time to research this yet as my schedule has been busy but b/t dh and I we will start this week.  I do know he's trying to avoid unnecessary testing.  He's of the opinion that the dr's are not much help when he's mentioned it to them in the past couple of years.   Pawz, how is your dh?  Have I asked that before on another topic?

Thanks for this.  I found the book!  Which type do you have?  That is incredible you no longer have symptoms!   Appreciate it!

Osteo. Rheumatoid arthritis is a whole other kind of beast. Not sure if book would help with RA or not.

[Laura Corin]

6 hours ago, Happy2BaMom said:

The book, Arthritis Interrupted: Featuring the Arthritis Healing Diet, written by an MD who battled severe osteoarthritis, completely interrupted (the title really is true) the osteoarthritis that hit me pretty hard at 40. More than a decade later now, I’m symptom free. 
 

Eta: I can’t link the book for some reason, but it’s still for sale on Amazon. 

Do you mind giving an idea of what kind of diet it is in general? 

[Happy2BaMom]

2 hours ago, Laura Corin said:

Do you mind giving an idea of what kind of diet it is in general? 

It’s more based on a list of foods to avoid and a list of foods (& some supplements) to actively choose, and lifestyle/exercise guidance). As well as a lot of info about how arthritis develops in the body. 
 

HTH 

[prairiewindmomma]

If someone had severe osteoarthritis…that means that their joints are showing severe damage. Your joints are bone on bone or have already fused. No diet fixes that, no matter where you are on the arthritis spectrum.

Beware the snake oil salesman, iykwim. I almost wish people would post their X-rays when they make wild claims, because it’s difficult to sort out what their reality has been. 
 

I believe people are able to have less joint swelling or pain, but there is no cure from a diet change if you already have severe osteoarthritis. Right? Those joints don’t restore back to their original condition. 🤦😉

[prairiewindmomma]

Back on the point of measuring inflammation someone mentioned upthread, the ESR and C-reactive protein tests mentioned on the arthritis.org link I posted earlier are the two general inflammatory measures that doctors track. However, those inflammatory tests can’t tell you where the inflammation is coming from and there are other conditions that could cause some of that inflammation as well. That’s in part why there is so much blood work done—you are looking for an overall pattern.

You also typically have X-rays done to measure joint erosion and demineralization as well. 
 

Vectra is another test done to measure cytokine activity to try to judge if your arthritis activity is moderate to high aside from joint imaging. This test is done almost exclusively with rheumatologists and on the autoimmune end of things and as part of continued monitoring. It’s not being used as a diagnostic test widely, afaik.

[Pawz4me]

1 hour ago, prairiewindmomma said:

If someone had severe osteoarthritis…that means that their joints are showing severe damage. Your joints are bone on bone or have already fused. No diet fixes that, no matter where you are on the arthritis spectrum.

Beware the snake oil salesman, iykwim. I almost wish people would post their X-rays when they make wild claims, because it’s difficult to sort out what their reality has been. 
 

I believe people are able to have less joint swelling or pain, but there is no cure from a diet change if you already have severe osteoarthritis. Right? Those joints don’t restore back to their original condition. 🤦😉

So much this.

Generic "joint pain" isn't the same thing as arthritis.

 

 

[Harriet Vane]

3 hours ago, Pawz4me said:

So much this.

Generic "joint pain" isn't the same thing as arthritis.

 

 

Yes. Exactly. Generic joint pain isn't the same thing as arthritis, though I have had primary care doctors diagnose "arthritis" after the most cursory discussion and without even examining the joint. 

For example, I was diagnosed with bursitis in my left hip. I did all the bursitis things to help heal it, to no avail. When I saw a specialist who ordered images, turns out I don't have bursitis. Not even a little bit. I have spinal disc compression and a bulging disk in my lower back. The pain I felt in my hip had nothing to do with my hip. The pain was referred from my spine. Hanging upside down on a teeter board is very effective at relieving it. So are back stretches. 

I have similar stories for other joints. Much of my problem is actually related to connective tissue dysfunction AND to gluten and dairy intolerance (pain and swelling measurably better when I stopped eating gluten and dairy), though I do also have osteoarthritis in some joints. 

[Laura Corin]

34 minutes ago, Harriet Vane said:

Yes. Exactly. Generic joint pain isn't the same thing as arthritis, though I have had primary care doctors diagnose "arthritis" after the most cursory discussion and without even examining the joint. 

For example, I was diagnosed with bursitis in my left hip. I did all the bursitis things to help heal it, to no avail. When I saw a specialist who ordered images, turns out I don't have bursitis. Not even a little bit. I have spinal disc compression and a bulging disk in my lower back. The pain I felt in my hip had nothing to do with my hip. The pain was referred from my spine. Hanging upside down on a teeter board is very effective at relieving it. So are back stretches. 

Yes. My elbow problem was due to tightness in my neck which was cured by diligent specific neck stretches. My intermittent hamstring pain is caused by my body protecting my back from further damage through over reaching  - I control it by lower back stretches.  I'm glad I have a good physio. 

[sheryl]

On 11/18/2022 at 8:40 PM, Pawz4me said:

He's doing reasonably okay. The current treatment he's on has kept him stable for two years now. His treatment choices are much less clear cut when this one fails (which it will do, sooner or later), but we try not to worry about the future too much. Thanks for asking!

Pawz,  hope this current treatment continues to go VERY WELL FOR HIM and sticks!!!  Yes, anxiety is not helpful.  There was a movie out or an informational movie when my mother was hospitalized in 1988 mentioning how important "deep" breathing is.  Surely there are other factors as well but for some reason this came to mind.  

[dsmith]

On 11/17/2022 at 2:44 PM, Selkie said:

Wow, that is great! There are loads of people with similar stories in my WFPB groups.

Since you mentioned MS, have you heard of Dr. Saray Stancic? She is a physician who suffered terribly from MS for years, then started eating WFPB and regained her health. Her life is now devoted to helping others through lifestyle medicine.

She has a documentary, Code Blue:

 https://www.codebluedoc.com 

and a book entitled What's Missing From Medicine: Six Lifestyle Changes to Overcome Chronic Illness:

https://smile.amazon.com/Whats-Missing-Medicine-Lifestyle-Overcome-ebook/dp/B085PTVR6H/ref=sr_1_1?crid=12ZONTAN7NU6Z&keywords=saray+stancic&qid=1668713757&sprefix=saray+stancic%2Caps%2C131&sr=8-1).

 

I don't know how I've never heard of her before! I watched this weekend, and she lives (or lived) a few towns away from me. The place where she's getting her MRI near the end of the documentary is a 2 minute drive from my house. I take my mil there all the time. The practice she had near me seems to be permanently closed according to Google.

[Selkie]

1 hour ago, dsmith said:

I don't know how I've never heard of her before! I watched this weekend, and she lives (or lived) a few towns away from me. The place where she's getting her MRI near the end of the documentary is a 2 minute drive from my house. I take my mil there all the time. The practice she had near me seems to be permanently closed according to Google.

Wow, that's amazing! Her practice looked so great - I love how she would go to the grocery store with her patients, and help them prepare food. I know her schedule is busy with writing, speaking at medical conferences, etc., so I wonder if she is not seeing patients anymore.