turkeypotpie Posted August 6, 2022 Share Posted August 6, 2022 (edited) Hello all. Long time lurker, first time poster. Looking for a sanity check on a high school curriculum for DD14. We are Florida-based, with a loose goal of being competitive for UF or similar flagship state school. Teaching duties are split between myself and spouse and all in-house, and we are just entering into 10th grade now. Current plan for 10th: - Eng 2 (Modern States College Comp, looking to CLEP this year), AP Bio, AP EnviroSci, AP World, AP Stats, Spanish 2, with some additional interest work in marine science and anatomy & physiology (spouse hails from medical field) 11th: - AP Lang, AP Physics 1+2, AP Comp Sci P, AP US History, Spanish 3, AP Calc BC, AP Art History, with some studies in art and design, financial literacy, etc. 12th: - AP Lit, AP Physics C, AP Comp Sci A, AP Gov, AP Macro/Micro, Spanish 4, AP Psych, extras TBD based on demonstrated major interests. We recently finished up 9th with good scores on AP HUG and AP Chem. Basically we worked backwards from FL state university entry standards to build a skeleton for necessary credits just prior to 9th, then when we looked into what AP courses took. Suddenly it just seemed to make sense to work to the AP courses as we went, and I liked that the syllabi were nicely laid out but still gave me flexibility for textbook selection with staggering amounts of free resources everywhere. As a result, our schedule has this totally ridiculous 15-20 APs programmed out. Basically, are we crazy? We sort of figure, 'why not AP' if they are in core classes for the most part across the curriculum, and the DE options in our immediate area are either poor in quality or too remote. The workload has been manageable and the teaching has been enjoyable. We're tinkering with aligning our year to the exam season, beginning a bit earlier in summer and concluding for break shortly after the tests. I'm pleased with AP Classroom's support and structure. Kiddo hasn't made any decisions yet on her direction for major, university type, or location yet. We kinda figure providing this sort of 'high rigor' template for the core stuff would give maximum options later, particularly on the STEM side if the interests develop in that direction. EDIT: Now leaning toward: 10: No ModernStates for Eng2. 11: Physics C-Mech (no 1/2). CompSci of some variety, not necessarily CSP. 12: Physics C-E&M as an option, either full year or semester length based on how Mech goes. Probably dropping Spanish4 for DE Math depending on interest. Psych a placeholder for DE options in major track, or senior projects. CompSci progression from 11th, perhaps still CSA or something more intensive if CS-tracking. Drop an econ (probably micro). Goals and context: - Rural Florida, one-stoplight town. Nearest community college 30 minutes away, no four-year colleges - Targeting state flagship (UF) or better - Both parents teach/facilitate Edited August 12, 2022 by turkeypotpie updated with advice reflected for our situation 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lori D. Posted August 6, 2022 Share Posted August 6, 2022 Since AP is working well for your student's level/need, then it sounds like you have a solid plan. As with all plans for high school, I always suggest writing in pencil and holding on lightly so you can bend and flex if/when change might be needed -- unexpected change in life circumstances or student's physical/mental health; sudden change in student's interests or goals or needs; new availability of special opportunities or extracurricular or internships to be able to take advantage of; etc. Best of luck, as you move through the high school years. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clemsondana Posted August 6, 2022 Share Posted August 6, 2022 If your student is enjoying the classes, there's no reason not to. My older considered a similar path, but decided that the AP exams were too limiting for some classes. For instance, kid has done AP Chem, Bio, and US History because they aligned neatly with what kid was already planning to do as a class. But, kid opted to do a completely home-designed world history class based around some interesting books, and kid is enjoying the chance to delve into topics that won't be covered on AP exams but give interesting perspectives on world history. Rather than go all in on art or music for AP, we chose to make a fine arts class that was a mix of music theory (taught by a cool guy who introduced kid to all sorts of new genres), ballroom dance, and home-grown drawing that helped kid develop a fun way to cartoon-journal. On another note, while there is nothing wrong with choosing AP classes, many of them will not translate into anything useful at the college level. So, if they are not interesting to your student for their own sake, there isn't much to be gained. It will be specific for different colleges and majors, but many of the AP courses just translate as 'general elective' credit, which most majors only require a handful of credits of. Most colleges have a chart showing what an AP exam actually translates to, as far as course credit. For my older, it seems similar (but not identical) at a couple of their top schools. A couple of examples - AP Stats, and the statistics class offered at my local CC, do not fulfill the statistics class required for engineers. AP lang and AP Lit can each exempt a student from the same required freshman English if a student earns a 5, so there is no benefit to taking both if a student earns a 5 on the first one - a studend might then be better off dual enrolling an upper level class, rather than taking a second AP. The physics without calculus APs don't exempt a student from any physics classes in the engineering track because physics with calculus is required. AP HUG is a free elective. A 5 on US History exempts a student from a required Western Civ requirement and an additional class, so it's well worth taking. But, having exempted 2 semesters of classes with the US History, the HUG, macro, micro, and world would not all be filling needed requirements because students don't need that many social science credits...and at many schools there are specific requirements around sequencing (they need some 300 level classes, which AP doesn't allow) or breadth (they need to take a certain number from different categories) so even courses that could 'count' won't help a student make progress towards completing their degree. With all of that being said, for a strong student AP courses done at home are not nearly as much work as the public schools make them out to be. Many school AP classes seem to have a ton of busywork, which isn't necessary, and a kid who is a good test-taker and knows the content can prepare in a reasonable amount of time. They will not be quick courses - there is more content than a standard high school class - and it will not leave a lot of opportunity to explore non-standard topics in a course. Prepping for lots of AP exams is also not how my kid wants to spend the end of the school year since it's the busy season for school baseball and Science Olympiad, so you might also want to consider what the testing time looks like for you to see if this is a good fit. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8filltheheart Posted August 6, 2022 Share Posted August 6, 2022 It looks like a heavy load to me, but if your student really wants to do all of those APs, then great. I wouldn't bother CLEPping English this yr bc the crs would overlap the AP English. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roadrunner Posted August 6, 2022 Share Posted August 6, 2022 I think it's a crazy load. I am of course speaking from the perspective of my children. No way we could have survived this. But I understand this is child dependent. One thing that jumps at me is you don't need AP Physics 1 and 2 if you are going to do Physics C. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8filltheheart Posted August 6, 2022 Share Posted August 6, 2022 5 minutes ago, Roadrunner said: I think it's a crazy load. I am of course speaking from the perspective of my children. No way we could have survived this. But I understand this is child dependent. One thing that jumps at me is you don't need AP Physics 1 and 2 if you are going to do Physics C. +1 (to everything, but especially duplicating physics, especially if a STEM major bc no cr will be given for 1/2 anyway.) My kids would hate that load. Plus, we dont homeschool to replicate ps. But, some kids like textbook/test approaches. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turkeypotpie Posted August 7, 2022 Author Share Posted August 7, 2022 Thank you all so much for the inputs! Perspective is very appreciated. I have struggled to find other parents in a similar high school age bracket to discuss some of these options. Absolutely agree that these are 'in pencil' plans. I have no illusion that maximal programming across multiple years will survive the reality of her wants and desires as she progresses. I admit to being an over-planner with a bit of time on my hands, and a desire to provide some guidance that I lacked during my own upbringing (I had very hands-off family members who did not especially see value or instill drive in post-secondary education). Clemsondana - Agreed on the credit values. I've been keeping an eye on equivalency credits for various exams and they really run the range school to school. Our state flagship has surprisingly generous credit policies, so a vast number of credits might be on the table if the exams work out well. How that actually translates to major requirements is up in the air, depending on which way she'd want to go. A 'nice to have' for the most part. Outside of FL or in the private school world, the value of those scores appears to fall off rapidly. 8filltheheart - Agreed on the overlap. Honestly, the CLEP serves as a bit of a goal to work some specific writing skills to shoot for this year, while being a preview of the wider essay writing variety for AP Lang. It does appear the scores fall into the same slot with most institutions, if they even recognize CLEP credits. This also serves as a bit of a trial for the Modern States approach with an online course, whereas most of our homeschool content has been a mixture of various books, selected texts, and parent-discovered enrichment items online. As for replicating public school, you're spot on. I've struggled with how this is a very formulaic plan, but I have found plenty of flexibility in how I go about it during the class day themselves, as the kiddo seems to do well with a fairly predictable routine when we digest content with a clear rubric the way the AP CEDs are set up. This could definitely change if she becomes bored or listless with the day-to-day of it all. Roadrunner - Physics is a weird one, and I'm not firm in this particular setups. I was working backwards from the idea of tackling the Physics C courses in senior year, so that would favor Calc the year prior. Physics 1 is the algebra based one of course that should be able to follow chem and bio without another pre-req, and would also serve as a foundation for all the material in C, just not with the 'real-world' math in place as I understand. I also consider it a last crossroads point for her major sciences, so if its clear during Physics 1/2 that she is not getting much out of it or would be uninterested/unsuccessful in C, then we could simply drop the plans for C and find something more appropriate for that time slot in senior year according to her interests/intended majors/etc and have completed enough Physics to give her that good overview of the main science subjects. I was on the fence about attempting a combined AP Physics 1 + 2 in one year, however. I saw several schools here and there do offer that combination, though most offer each as year-long courses. My scan through the textbooks recommended by the College Board showed mostly overlap between the two. When I got my hands on one of the books, it was built in such a way to teach both... so I'm looking at our ability to get through the entirety of Campbell Biology this year as a gauge if we can tackle another full-size college level text next year. Lastly, Physics 2 covers the second half of the C curriculum, so it seemed some benefit to easing the path for the top-level stuff potentially down the road. .... wow, I'm really overthinking this stuff, hm... As far as the load, I only have the previous year to judge from, but I believe its only been manageable due to the magic of not being in a brick-and-mortar school. With my spouse and I as kiddo's 'teaching team', its been workable to find this or that synergy between her classes that a public school couldn't, such as her writing or lit reading assignments overlapping with history, or block-scheduling around whatever class needs some acceleration or emphasis. If I saw this curriculum as a normal schedule for a high school kid, I would assume they'd be drowning in homework and without sleep or a spare moment for reflection or fun, but it hasn't been that way. We try very hard to maximize our hands-on time to cut the homework out but give lots of prep time for exam prep. It wasn't perfect last year, but I learned so much. I'm hoping I'm not biting off more than we can chew as we ramp up the level each year. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roadrunner Posted August 7, 2022 Share Posted August 7, 2022 I think how much time APs take depends on your approach. I know a homeschooler who rocked AP US History and other AP History courses with a very reasonable time commitment because she didn’t outsource any of it (so could control both input/output) and she has a kid who writes very well, so preparing for essay portion of those exams wasn’t an issue. If you outsource APUSH (say to PA Homeschoolers), you are looking at a 2 hour per day commitment. You add another outsourced AP course and you start to see my point. As far as physics is concerned, you don’t need 1 and 2 to prepare for C. What you need are very solid math skills. The material is basically a duplicate. If you have a math kid go to C. If your kid is more of a liberal arts kid, go 1 and 2 route. I always tend to build schedules with daily work in mind. You want extracurriculars so you need to factor in how much time it all takes. I can tell you calculus based physics (mine did DE for this) was 5 hours in class commitment (lab included) and at least 7-10 hours of work outside. It was massive. We always thought about having some courses that would balance heavy hitters like physics. The good news is as a homeschooler, you can start out with a heavy load and adjust as reality hits. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8filltheheart Posted August 7, 2022 Share Posted August 7, 2022 One of my kids graduated from high school almost having completed a college minor in physics. Dont get sucked into believing that taking a test is necessary for learning. Taking the equivalentof 1/2 in a single yr is definitely doable. It is the way it used to be...but it doesnt mean your student needs to take the tests. Your student can master physics wo wasting time on the AP exam. And I wouldn't leave teaching good writing to MS. They are geared strictly toward passing the CLEP. Way more to good writing than that. It isnt an objective I would pursue. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clemsondana Posted August 7, 2022 Share Posted August 7, 2022 One other thought about sequencing...it looks like you did precal this year, based on planning to do stats and then calc...why not reverse the order of those so that you can do calc-based physics? Then you can choose whether to do stats or DE (or do at home) at different type of math if it;s a better fit for your student's likely path? The current plan maximizes the number of AP exams taken, but you could choose a path that covers more content and skips some of the courses that may not be helpful. Or, if you are just looking for interesting advanced classes, you might consider something like AoPS Number Theory or Counting and Probability. My kid did those in middle school and found the Number Theory class to be useful as kid studies some concepts in computing. And...as for using the entirety of Campbell in one year - the content in that is definitely above what is needed to pass the AP exam (assuming that you are talking about Campbell Biology and not Campbell Concepts and Connections). It's fine to choose to cover a whole book, but the content of AP bio doesn't require anything like the entirety of a book like Campbell Biology...it doesn't even require the entirety of the Miller and Levine book, because the AP exam doesn't have much about the topics related to A&P, difference between angiosperms and gymnosperms, etc - it's highly focused on molecular biology with a dash of genetics, ecology and classification. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8filltheheart Posted August 7, 2022 Share Posted August 7, 2022 I didn't even notice the stats followed by BC. I agree. Definitely take cal this yr. It opens the door to a lot of upper level sciences. Does your student have any preferences about any subjects? For our family, the entire pt of homeschooling is to tailor our kids' educations to meet their needs, not just be another generic high school student checking of a list of courses. We maximize homeschooling freedom and minimize the focus on college admissions criteria. They help design their high school course list and some of their courses as well. They end up interesting college applicants bc they achieve very high levels in subjects they passionately pursue. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turkeypotpie Posted August 7, 2022 Author Share Posted August 7, 2022 (edited) 12 hours ago, Roadrunner said: If you outsource APUSH (say to PA Homeschoolers), you are looking at a 2 hour per day commitment. You add another outsourced AP course and you start to see my point. As far as physics is concerned, you don’t need 1 and 2 to prepare for C. What you need are very solid math skills. The material is basically a duplicate. If you have a math kid go to C. If your kid is more of a liberal arts kid, go 1 and 2 route. You're spot on here. Without being able to approach it at our own speed, I don't think it'd be possible. We had a fairly bad experience when we dipped into FLVS back in middle school for a year, and since then we've committed to keeping all our courses in-house so we can control our schedule and workload. And I agree on the Physics path. My thinking is: - if AP Bio goes well this year and we get through the material: proceed to Phys1+2. If that goes well and Calc goes well and she is looking at STEM options, proceed to C. If humanities, consider an interest-based science or off-ramp. - if Bio is a rough road, then normal Physics 1. That would be good to off-ramp. Only if high interest and good calc skills came out in junior year, and looking at STEM, then consider C. Edited August 7, 2022 by turkeypotpie 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8filltheheart Posted August 7, 2022 Share Posted August 7, 2022 Bio and physics are very different courses. She seems to be strong in math since she completed precal in 9th. She might love physics. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turkeypotpie Posted August 7, 2022 Author Share Posted August 7, 2022 12 hours ago, 8filltheheart said: And I wouldn't leave teaching good writing to MS. They are geared strictly toward passing the CLEP. Way more to good writing than that. It isnt an objective I would pursue. I'm quickly coming around to that position. I haven't been particularly impressed with the MS offering for comp. I have other programs to step away to once we milk it for what we can. Their included text is atrocious. 4 hours ago, Clemsondana said: One other thought about sequencing...it looks like you did precal this year, based on planning to do stats and then calc...why not reverse the order of those so that you can do calc-based physics? Then you can choose whether to do stats or DE (or do at home) at different type of math if it;s a better fit for your student's likely path? The current plan maximizes the number of AP exams taken, but you could choose a path that covers more content and skips some of the courses that may not be helpful. Or, if you are just looking for interesting advanced classes, you might consider something like AoPS Number Theory or Counting and Probability. My kid did those in middle school and found the Number Theory class to be useful as kid studies some concepts in computing. And...as for using the entirety of Campbell in one year - the content in that is definitely above what is needed to pass the AP exam (assuming that you are talking about Campbell Biology and not Campbell Concepts and Connections). It's fine to choose to cover a whole book, but the content of AP bio doesn't require anything like the entirety of a book like Campbell Biology...it doesn't even require the entirety of the Miller and Levine book, because the AP exam doesn't have much about the topics related to A&P, difference between angiosperms and gymnosperms, etc - it's highly focused on molecular biology with a dash of genetics, ecology and classification. The stats-before-calc sequence was selected to give her some context for real-world math and to perhaps build some interest outside of the abstract. My spouse is teaching that one and has years of experience in the the medical field, and she is excellent at linking the two. But you're right; the way we have it set up will cut out any available time for other math exploration outside the AP course load. As it stands right now, our student hasn't expressed any interest outside of the basics, so we haven't spent a lot of time exploring things like the AoP offerings. Bio: Yes, the standard Campbell text. I just dug into it again, and you called it. It appears units 1-5 map very well to to the CED, then a jump to unit 8 to finish with Ecology. I cross-check our class work with AP Classroom content and test prep books to make sure I'm staying on task, but you just gave me more reason to keep a tight look at our flow. That said, I love the Campbell book and really do hope we can maximize the content from it! 2 hours ago, 8filltheheart said: I didn't even notice the stats followed by BC. I agree. Definitely take cal this yr. It opens the door to a lot of upper level sciences. Does your student have any preferences about any subjects? For our family, the entire pt of homeschooling is to tailor our kids' educations to meet their needs, not just be another generic high school student checking of a list of courses. We maximize homeschooling freedom and minimize the focus on college admissions criteria. They help design their high school course list and some of their courses as well. They end up interesting college applicants bc they achieve very high levels in subjects they passionately pursue. 8filltheheart: Our student loves art, but has made it clear this is something she wants to pursue at her own pace, time, and means of her choosing. She will have bursts of massive creativity and spend a weekend creating or working through YouTube tutorials on digital techniques, but does not respond well to us trying to structure around it. I've learned to let her do her thing on this, but be right there with all the supplies, books, space and time for her to self-develop that skillset. That aside, she hasn't had a lot of interest in other areas either expressed or when we probe. Creating this typified 'rigorous college prep' curriculum is a default position to keep as many doors open as possible of as many levels as possible. She enjoys the classes we teach and is fine with the schedule as we propose them, but spouse and I are the ones programming this out to hit state requirements and conforming to university desires in absence of a directed path of her own choosing. I must emphasize that the plans I detailed in the first post are completely dependent on her own wishes, and we are willing to pivot on a dime if she wants to path this way or that. Absolutely the magic of doing this at home is being able to tailor this for the kiddo, but she is 'going with the flow' for now. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8filltheheart Posted August 7, 2022 Share Posted August 7, 2022 Food for thought.....if they are so busy on gen eds that they don't have lots of down time with absolutely nothing planned/scheduled, it is harder for them to find themselves and their real long term goals. It is through empty space that they need to fill that contemplation and future goals can be slowly brewed. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EKS Posted August 7, 2022 Share Posted August 7, 2022 That's a lot of APs. Do you have easy access to all of those exams? Are you getting all of the classes cleared through the College Board so you can call them AP on the transcript? Will your student be working with subject matter experts who are passionate about their fields? Our experience here is that this is what makes an AP class pop, not the content itself. If it were me, I'd think carefully about what the purpose is of doing AP, as opposed to more interest-led and interest-ing work. What would be meaningful to your student? My advanced kid did several APs at the local high school, but at home we focused on a pretty eclectic mix of stuff--philosophy, cultural geography, the history and philosophy of science, human innovation, consciousness, environmental issues, using math to understand history, and so on. What would interest your student? 10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcadia Posted August 7, 2022 Share Posted August 7, 2022 2 hours ago, turkeypotpie said: The stats-before-calc sequence was selected to give her some context for real-world math and to perhaps build some interest outside of the abstract. My spouse is teaching that one and has years of experience in the the medical field, and she is excellent at linking the two. I would do calc BC in 10th and physics C in 11th. I won’t bother with physics 1/2 and use that time for your child to pursue interests or just have down time. Since your spouse is teaching stats, you could start now. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turkeypotpie Posted August 7, 2022 Author Share Posted August 7, 2022 1 hour ago, EKS said: That's a lot of APs. Do you have easy access to all of those exams? Are you getting all of the classes cleared through the College Board so you can call them AP on the transcript? Will your student be working with subject matter experts who are passionate about their fields? Our experience here is that this is what makes an AP class pop, not the content itself. If it were me, I'd think carefully about what the purpose is of doing AP, as opposed to more interest-led and interest-ing work. What would be meaningful to your student? My advanced kid did several APs at the local high school, but at home we focused on a pretty eclectic mix of stuff--philosophy, cultural geography, the history and philosophy of science, human innovation, consciousness, environmental issues, using math to understand history, and so on. What would interest your student? EKS - We're fortunate that the local public has most of the exams on our roster and tests off-site very close to us. There are a few they don't offer, so I've been shopping around to locate the remaining outliers. At first blush it looks like we'll be covered for exam availability. As for building interest, we are definitely in that mode where we are offering exposure and seeing what takes. As mentioned above, her artistic nature is definitely there, as well as a facility with tech, but outside of art she hasn't wanted to commit to a class-like exploration of other topics. 29 minutes ago, Arcadia said: I would do calc BC in 10th and physics C in 11th. I won’t bother with physics 1/2 and use that time for your child to pursue interests or just have down time. Since your spouse is teaching stats, you could start now. This is making a lot of sense. I'll discuss this with my spouse and talk through the scenarios (I do science, math is on her plate). 1 hour ago, 8filltheheart said: Food for thought.....if they are so busy on gen eds that they don't have lots of down time with absolutely nothing planned/scheduled, it is harder for them to find themselves and their real long term goals. It is through empty space that they need to fill that contemplation and future goals can be slowly brewed. I agree completely. We try our best to give that downtime and zealously guard her free time, off periods, and weekends from school encroaching. To those who have done Physics C at home, how was the experience? I can start another thread if more appropriate. Thoughts on skipping Physics 1/2 to go to C, and doing Calc concurrently instead of a year ahead? Ideas for progression post-calc BC and post Phys C? And was this for a STEM aligned kid or part of their core on the way to a different path? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kokotg Posted August 7, 2022 Share Posted August 7, 2022 It sounds like an awful lot to me, but not terribly out of line with what a lot of kids are doing in rigorous public schools these days. We've done a lot of APs on our own and had a lot of success with them, but my kids find more than 3 in a year overwhelming. There's a big difference between prepping for two exams and prepping for 5 or 6...but of course it depends on the kid. We've found a combo of DE and AP to be the least stressful/most effective way to go. And there's a big variation in AP courses and tests as well, of course. Some of them we've found we can pretty much just do the subject how we'd do it anyway and be prepared for the exam (sometimes with a few weeks going through a test prep book near the end)....my 11th grader did a non-AP human geography class at a co-op last year (2 hours a week plus homework) and got a 5 with just that and a few hours with the prep book. My own background is in literature, and so far my kids have been well prepared for the AP lit exam just doing what we would do anyway. But then something like art history has a very specific curriculum that you have to stick to to be prepared (and it's a TON of material...it's not a HARD test really, but there's so much material to cover that it's tough to fit it all in). The history exams require learning a specific kind of analysis in addition to covering the material. So I guess what I'm getting at is that there are some exams where it's sort of like, "might as well give the test a try since we're covering the subject anyway!" and others where you very much have to teach to the test and that can be limiting (not always bad, but limiting). 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcadia Posted August 7, 2022 Share Posted August 7, 2022 36 minutes ago, turkeypotpie said: To those who have done Physics C at home, how was the experience? I can start another thread if more appropriate. Thoughts on skipping Physics 1/2 to go to C, and doing Calc concurrently instead of a year ahead? Ideas for progression post-calc BC and post Phys C? And was this for a STEM aligned kid or part of their core on the way to a different path? My teens went with PAH for AP Physics C so they are not home brew classes in our cases. DS16 passed his AP Physics C exams before he took calculus BC. He wanted a break after precalculus so he took calculus BC two years after Physics C. He just learned whatever maths needed as he needs it for physics C. Both my teens are applied science kids and they did dual enrollment at community college after that for math and physics. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JennyD Posted August 7, 2022 Share Posted August 7, 2022 29 minutes ago, kokotg said: We've done a lot of APs on our own and had a lot of success with them, but my kids find more than 3 in a year overwhelming. There's a big difference between prepping for two exams and prepping for 5 or 6...but of course it depends on the kid.. . . Some of them we've found we can pretty much just do the subject how we'd do it anyway and be prepared for the exam (sometimes with a few weeks going through a test prep book near the end).. . . The history exams require learning a specific kind of analysis in addition to covering the material. So I guess what I'm getting at is that there are some exams where it's sort of like, "might as well give the test a try since we're covering the subject anyway!" This has been our experience as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turkeypotpie Posted August 7, 2022 Author Share Posted August 7, 2022 41 minutes ago, kokotg said: And there's a big variation in AP courses and tests as well, of course. Some of them we've found we can pretty much just do the subject how we'd do it anyway and be prepared for the exam (sometimes with a few weeks going through a test prep book near the end)....my 11th grader did a non-AP human geography class at a co-op last year (2 hours a week plus homework) and got a 5 with just that and a few hours with the prep book. My own background is in literature, and so far my kids have been well prepared for the AP lit exam just doing what we would do anyway. But then something like art history has a very specific curriculum that you have to stick to to be prepared (and it's a TON of material...it's not a HARD test really, but there's so much material to cover that it's tough to fit it all in). The history exams require learning a specific kind of analysis in addition to covering the material. So I guess what I'm getting at is that there are some exams where it's sort of like, "might as well give the test a try since we're covering the subject anyway!" and others where you very much have to teach to the test and that can be limiting (not always bad, but limiting). I wish DE was a more realistic prospect for us, but there is no four year institution near us and the state college options are limited to very basic gen ed. We opted to plan for AP instead with an eye to more universal acceptance of rigor/credit value. This could change if something catches her eye. We do get College Board audit approvals for our courses and plan to continue that into the future. I was very pleased to see that the audit process was incredibly simple and quite lenient. The texts I've found in their sample recommendation lists have been plenty to choose from and always include something interesting. I can always bring in my own materials for enrichment, and getting a syllabus approved using the unit guide method makes for a very straightforward method of giving body to our work. I've seen extensive references on various boards that college AOs are more interested in the AP class itself (ie, an approved designation) and the resulting grade over just the exam score. That was generally in the context of traditional schools though. It is hard to assess how a university would look at a home-graded "A" on an AP course with a low exam score or no score at all. You weren't kidding about art history. When I looked up that course, it looked like a huge memorization exercise of 200+ very specific pieces and their contexts. My spouse likes the idea, but we'll see if kiddo wants to take the bait. We could see AP ArtHist as the possibility to knock out a pre-req for a future art major if she wants to take that particular passion into college for her focus, but am concerned it might turn into a slog of Anki decks and dry cultural references. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turkeypotpie Posted August 7, 2022 Author Share Posted August 7, 2022 26 minutes ago, Arcadia said: My teens went with PAH for AP Physics C so they are not home brew classes in our cases. DS16 passed his AP Physics C exams before he took calculus BC. He wanted a break after precalculus so he took calculus BC two years after Physics C. He just learned whatever maths needed as he needs it for physics C. Both my teens are applied science kids and they did dual enrollment at community college after that for math and physics. C before full calc?? You're blowing my mind, but I could see after a good precalc how that might work very well. Is there any lessons learned or suggestions on which math and sciences you had good success with on the DE side post calc/C to set them up for their college majors? 13 minutes ago, JennyD said: This has been our experience as well. Was there any courses in particular that threw a monkey wrench in the works when combined or stacked? We saw AP HUG had a much lower time levy than Chem of course, and some future ones like CSP might be pretty easy to navigate. I'm trying to make some of the heavy hitting core courses more palatable by finding ways to build on each other. The first unit of bio, for instance, is a breeze since its right after extensive chem and a&p work, so its a very quick and straightforward review before delving into cellular topics. It gets me thinking about the utility of scaffolding other courses together a bit more. Bronx HS of Sci has a combined AP Lang/AP USH course that caught my eye for instance, to align their reading and writing. I could see the programming in CSP be leaned into Java vs Python/Swift/C/etc to transition into CS-A much easier. Or US History + US Gov/Politics coming together. Still have a lot to research on these to have them makes sense, though. Just a seed in my head at the moment. Stat and Econ perhaps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EKS Posted August 7, 2022 Share Posted August 7, 2022 1 hour ago, turkeypotpie said: As for building interest, we are definitely in that mode where we are offering exposure and seeing what takes. As mentioned above, her artistic nature is definitely there, as well as a facility with tech, but outside of art she hasn't wanted to commit to a class-like exploration of other topics. How do you present the option of exploring other topics? If she thinks that she will have to direct the work herself or that it will be presented in a way that sucks the life out of it* or that it will be in addition to a full slate of APs, I can see why she might balk. *Such as requiring a ton of memorization, testing, or gratuitous essay writing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daijobu Posted August 7, 2022 Share Posted August 7, 2022 (edited) 22 hours ago, turkeypotpie said: Current plan for 10th: - Eng 2 (Modern States College Comp, looking to CLEP this year), AP Bio, AP EnviroSci, AP World, AP Stats, Spanish 2, with some additional interest work in marine science and anatomy & physiology (spouse hails from medical field) 11th: - AP Lang, AP Physics 1+2, AP Comp Sci P, AP US History, Spanish 3, AP Calc BC, AP Art History, with some studies in art and design, financial literacy, etc. 12th: - AP Lit, AP Physics C, AP Comp Sci A, AP Gov, AP Macro/Micro, Spanish 4, AP Psych, extras TBD based on demonstrated major interests. I agree with PPs re: skipping AP Physics 1,2, Calc BC before AP Physics C, and the duplication of AP Lang and AP Lit, unless you have an enthusiast for English. I would also recommend skipping AP CS Principles in favor of AP CS A, which is already watered down, but not as badly as Principles which is fairly worthless IMO. We are also a family of test-lovers, but I want to add the opportunity cost to the equation. Would some of these APs take time away from more interesting work in marine science or other areas? What else could your student be doing the next few years to enhance her education? I will point out that not all APs are created equal, and AP World, AP Environment, AP CS Principles, AP physics 1/2, and maybe AP Psych have a worse reputation than the core curriculum APs and definitely skippable. I'm not familiar with flagship schools in Florida, so you just need to be savvy about their admissions requirements. You are probably already aware of some scholarship opportunities for high SAT scores in Florida, so take advantage of those. Edited August 7, 2022 by daijobu 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farrar Posted August 7, 2022 Share Posted August 7, 2022 I'm about to be really harsh. But this plan feels like it's also harsh. It's harsh on the kid who is about to be expected to embark on this journey. Another vote that this plan is extremely intensive, doubles up content for no apparent reason, and has nothing interesting. And when I say it has nothing interesting, I mean for her, but for colleges too. Sure, it's impressive, but to what end? You say she doesn't know what she wants to major in or what sort of schools she wants to attend. This is massive overkill for most universities, including some fairly competitive ones. But it's also such a generalist plan that it won't necessarily stand out to any tippy top schools either since kids with too many AP's are a dime a dozen in terms of their applicants. And if a kid is just push, push, push going through the motions in every single area, then how can she have time to figure out what she actually wants? Just looking at the plan, I have no idea who this kid is. I've literally never seen a kid have this all over the place lack of balance. Sure, some kids do English and sciences or love science but also dip into AP Art History or have just a bit of AP's in a bunch of subjects, but this is going to the hardest exams and multiple exams in nearly every area outside of foreign language and visual/performing arts. This looks like a parent driven plan, not a kid-driven plan right from the start. It's nice when the transcript can tell a story. The only story here is literally just "we like AP's." And I would just say that just because a kid managed two AP's in a year doesn't mean that they can manage this sort of load. I have seen far too many kids in the last few years who have started strong and then burned out HARD after a 10th grade that was just punishing. And usually everyone started with the best of intentions and the kid fully on board. But the end result is a junior year that's too light and a kid who didn't live up to the unrealistic expectations that parents set as a baseline. So then you go into what's the most key year for college admissions with kid struggling with self-perception and a course load that looks like it's a step down when what colleges most want to see is that a student took on new challenges each year. I would just think very hard about this, about who is really driving it and about what course of study will help your kid actually figure out her direction and interests. And I would be aware that if the goal is highly selective colleges, then extracurriculars and interesting coursework (especially for homeschoolers) are just as important as the transcript, so you've got to leave space for those things - something this plan doesn't do yet. 8 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daijobu Posted August 7, 2022 Share Posted August 7, 2022 My kids grew up largely before the pandemic, and we love tests, but these are the only ones we did: grade 8: AP CS A (one of the easiest APs) grade 9: AP Chem grade 10-12: AP Bio, AP Calc BC, APUSH, AP Physics C, AP Lang. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daijobu Posted August 7, 2022 Share Posted August 7, 2022 You and your student might want to read How to Be a High School Superstar, and if you like that follow it up with So Good They Can't Ignore You. He also has lots of interesting advice on his Study Hacks blog. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcadia Posted August 7, 2022 Share Posted August 7, 2022 (edited) 47 minutes ago, turkeypotpie said: C before full calc?? You're blowing my mind, but I could see after a good precalc how that might work very well. Is there any lessons learned or suggestions on which math and sciences you had good success with on the DE side post calc/C to set them up for their college majors? Both of mine are aiming for computer science in engineering school which leans more applied versus theoretical. DS17 did all the math that community college have to offer and finished his associate degree in 12th grade. DS16 is on his way to finishing all the math classes this academic year 2022/23. Can’t comment on the science side since my teens used their AP exam scores for science credits. ETA: DS17 did do human genetics last fall which doesn’t have labs, did electrical circuit analysis this summer but the lab module wasn’t offered. He will be doing physics (calculus) with labs in fall. DS17 picked science dual enrollment classes based on what the private college he wants to transfer to recommends for his preferred major. Edited August 7, 2022 by Arcadia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kokotg Posted August 7, 2022 Share Posted August 7, 2022 41 minutes ago, turkeypotpie said: You weren't kidding about art history. When I looked up that course, it looked like a huge memorization exercise of 200+ very specific pieces and their contexts. My spouse likes the idea, but we'll see if kiddo wants to take the bait. We could see AP ArtHist as the possibility to knock out a pre-req for a future art major if she wants to take that particular passion into college for her focus, but am concerned it might turn into a slog of Anki decks and dry cultural references. I should say that my two kids who have done it have really enjoyed art history, and it's a great introduction to the ENTIRE history of art; there's just not a lot of time to delve deeply into any of it...but that's not necessarily the worst thing in the world if you're looking for a good overview/intro to the subject. My kids love tracking down some of the 250 works when we're on trips. khan academy has really good videos and/or articles for all of the works (my kids have talked to several public school kids taking the class and it sounds like many/most teachers use the khan stuff more than textbooks), so it's very nice laid out for you...it's just so much material! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted August 7, 2022 Share Posted August 7, 2022 (edited) Looks heavy. Neither of us would have liked that. I would absolutely NOT do AP Physics 1+2 and AP Physics C back-to-back. It is essentially the same content, just at different levels of depth and math. Would be very boring. For a student going into STEM fields, except bio, algebra based APPhys 12 doesn't give college credit towards the major. Edited August 7, 2022 by regentrude 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clemsondana Posted August 7, 2022 Share Posted August 7, 2022 1 hour ago, turkeypotpie said: I wish DE was a more realistic prospect for us, but there is no four year institution near us and the state college options are limited to very basic gen ed. We opted to plan for AP instead with an eye to more universal acceptance of rigor/credit value. This could change if something catches her eye. We do get College Board audit approvals for our courses and plan to continue that into the future. I was very pleased to see that the audit process was incredibly simple and quite lenient. The texts I've found in their sample recommendation lists have been plenty to choose from and always include something interesting. I can always bring in my own materials for enrichment, and getting a syllabus approved using the unit guide method makes for a very straightforward method of giving body to our work. I've seen extensive references on various boards that college AOs are more interested in the AP class itself (ie, an approved designation) and the resulting grade over just the exam score. That was generally in the context of traditional schools though. It is hard to assess how a university would look at a home-graded "A" on an AP course with a low exam score or no score at all. Have you looked at a college course equivalency chart? In many cases, AP only covers freshman-level courses, while community colleges that offer associates degrees have sophomore (2000-level) classes. At one of my kid's preferred schools, you can type in any college and then type a course number and it will tell you what classes are equivalent (English 2008 at one school is English 2020 at another). I found some classes that didn't translate into certain majors (like the lack of the engineering statistics) but most sophomore English and social science classes transfered, as did 3 semesters of calculus and both calc-based physics and lab classes. As for what colleges care about with AP, I've heard it both ways. If you are happy to get a syllabus approved, it's not an issue. But, many colleges seem fine with a transcript that says 'Chemistry with AP' and a good score rather than using an approved syllabus. And, I'd also consider whether you can do more interesting things with some of the classes. Rather than AP Statistics, your spouse could teach an interesting class about medical statistics that would be unique on a transcript. My older considered the computer science APs, but then realized that my spouse could teach a much more interesting (and higher level) course on computing that seems to be a survey of college computer engineering. It's giving kid a real feel for what it would be like to major in computer engineering. After doing AP Chem and AP Bio, kid has a gap before they DE physics their senior year. Kid is choosing to do a bio 2 class at co-op that explores all sorts of non-traditional topics and varies each year based on student interest. I don't think that every single class that homeschoolers do needs to be interest-driven, but I would consider that your student doesn't have any classes that aren't interest-driven or that give the chance to explore. It's standard for schools, but loses one of the benefits of homeschooling. You say that your student likes to do art in bursts....there's no reason not to be counting some of that as school credits. Just note the hours spent if you don't have a good idea of what constitutes a class worth of material, and assign some art credits. You don't have to count everything that your student does as school credit, but if your student is spending hours a week making stop-motion animations and had to learn how to do basic coding or photography to do it, then I'd consider making it a credit. One other thing that I'm noticing is that you have years that have 3 science courses (bio, env sci, and marine bio) and years with 3 social sciences (gov, econ, and psych). Will your student be happy with this? I know you said that you could change gears, but it's just something to keep in mind, as is the fact that there is no math listed for 12th grade. Like I said earlier, if you just like taking tests and are happy with the traditional AP format, then it's fine to go with that. But, if you have a kid who isn't sure what they want to do, taking 3 science courses one year and then taking 3 social sciences another, espcially at an AP level, could be enough to turn them off on those topics. My older does 8 credits every year (that's as many as our umbrella will count). We have the main 4 every year and have a foreign language for 3 of the years and in their first 2 years they used some of the additonal credits to fulfill the generic health and PE and fine arts requirements. Kid did a few random credits in areas of interest (science fiction elective, horticulture elective, a couple of coding classes), but as kid moves into their last 2 years they are starting to gravitate towards classes that are in fields that kid might want to study in college. Even the earlier electives helped kid make decisions - coding is fun! Horticulture is somewhat interesting, but gardening is going to be a hobby, rather than farming being a lifestyle! So, we built on coding to create the computing class this year. If kid continues to like it, then their senior year will be focused on doing more study in that field, or taking classes needed in preparation to do more work (physics is needed before circuits, for instance), or maybe doing an internship of some sort. It may not be an issue for your student, but the clumping of lots of one field in certain years may create some challlenges around burnout if they turn out to not be interested in the topics very much. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turkeypotpie Posted August 7, 2022 Author Share Posted August 7, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, Farrar said: I'm about to be really harsh. But this plan feels like it's also harsh. It's harsh on the kid who is about to be expected to embark on this journey. Another vote that this plan is extremely intensive, doubles up content for no apparent reason, and has nothing interesting. And when I say it has nothing interesting, I mean for her, but for colleges too. Sure, it's impressive, but to what end? You say she doesn't know what she wants to major in or what sort of schools she wants to attend. This is massive overkill for most universities, including some fairly competitive ones. But it's also such a generalist plan that it won't necessarily stand out to any tippy top schools either since kids with too many AP's are a dime a dozen in terms of their applicants. And if a kid is just push, push, push going through the motions in every single area, then how can she have time to figure out what she actually wants? Just looking at the plan, I have no idea who this kid is. I've literally never seen a kid have this all over the place lack of balance. Sure, some kids do English and sciences or love science but also dip into AP Art History or have just a bit of AP's in a bunch of subjects, but this is going to the hardest exams and multiple exams in nearly every area outside of foreign language and visual/performing arts. This looks like a parent driven plan, not a kid-driven plan right from the start. It's nice when the transcript can tell a story. The only story here is literally just "we like AP's." And I would just say that just because a kid managed two AP's in a year doesn't mean that they can manage this sort of load. I have seen far too many kids in the last few years who have started strong and then burned out HARD after a 10th grade that was just punishing. And usually everyone started with the best of intentions and the kid fully on board. But the end result is a junior year that's too light and a kid who didn't live up to the unrealistic expectations that parents set as a baseline. So then you go into what's the most key year for college admissions with kid struggling with self-perception and a course load that looks like it's a step down when what colleges most want to see is that a student took on new challenges each year. I would just think very hard about this, about who is really driving it and about what course of study will help your kid actually figure out her direction and interests. And I would be aware that if the goal is highly selective colleges, then extracurriculars and interesting coursework (especially for homeschoolers) are just as important as the transcript, so you've got to leave space for those things - something this plan doesn't do yet. Farrar - Harsh is good, and your feedback in invaluable! This is exactly the kind of sanity check and criticism I need. I can't thank everyone on here enough for their perspective. I don't want to slap things together in a bubble and miss the ramifications. Absolutely agree on 2 prior APs do not mean future success. We're looking at 4 this year, and that will be a check on workload and desire for this level in the future. I am under no illusions that if moving up to 4 (especially since three of them are in core subjects) causes issues, excessive frustration, grind, etc then this house of cards implodes and trying to follow arbitrary College Board rigor is not appropriate. More importantly, the development of the hook or theme across the transcript is something that we have little to address. As you pointed out, this setup is very much a parent-created construct and I know I'm stepping in with a 'program maximum' to deviate from. I don't yet know how to guide this part to build the passion and direction side of things, and I'm struggling with it. It's 'easy' for me to plan out the core stuff and try to make the rigor manageable within our capabilities up to this point, but helping her stand out from the sea of others in the same bucket is something that I need to work on. Your point on progressive challenge is important, and I looked at typical curricula for college prep tracks and worked backwards. Eng 9, Eng 10, AP Lang, AP Lit for ELA, and so forth. That physics setup was really the sticking point, and seemed to benefit from if we wanted to offer C in senior year, then having calc be junior would position us properly. History going from HUG (which was very enjoyable!), to World (also love!), to US, to Gov/Econ seemed to make sense across normal expected high school requirements and for the state systems. That physics lineup is overkill, I must absolutely admit that. Edited August 7, 2022 by turkeypotpie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turkeypotpie Posted August 7, 2022 Author Share Posted August 7, 2022 1 hour ago, daijobu said: You and your student might want to read How to Be a High School Superstar, and if you like that follow it up with So Good They Can't Ignore You. He also has lots of interesting advice on his Study Hacks blog. I'll pick these up!! Thank you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turkeypotpie Posted August 7, 2022 Author Share Posted August 7, 2022 1 hour ago, daijobu said: I agree with PPs re: skipping AP Physics 1,2, Calc BC before AP Physics C, and the duplication of AP Lang and AP Lit, unless you have an enthusiast for English. I would also recommend skipping AP CS Principles in favor of AP CS A, which is already watered down, but not as badly as Principles which is fairly worthless IMO. We are also a family of test-lovers, but I want to add the opportunity cost to the equation. Would some of these APs take time away from more interesting work in marine science or other areas? What else could your student be doing the next few years to enhance her education? I will point out that not all APs are created equal, and AP World, AP Environment, AP CS Principles, AP physics 1/2, and maybe AP Psych have a worse reputation than the core curriculum APs and definitely skippable. I'm not familiar with flagship schools in Florida, so you just need to be savvy about their admissions requirements. You are probably already aware of some scholarship opportunities for high SAT scores in Florida, so take advantage of those. This is good food for thought for me. I see AP Lang as sufficiently important to provide guidance on college-level writing and essay work, and the composition texts and readers I've collected are interesting and worthwhile. AP Lit is a backstop 'maybe' for senior year as a default position to explore higher level lit on a humanities track. A bit of an either/or with higher sci for the STEM side if she wanted to go one direction or another. I need 4 year credits for ELA in most uni recommendations. I've been using the admission reqs and suggestions from the big five or so public schools in FL for my baselines. The FL Bright Futures option for funding is she hits the SAT/ACT, credit, and volunteer hours is also a compelling benefit. As for as skipping CSP for CS-A, I was concerned going in to a raw programming formal course might be too much or too heavy for structured comp sci. I liked that CSP from a provider like code.org, the Harvard CS50 AP-CSP, etc gave a lot of time and emphasis into the wide range of applications and the creative side of CS and still lead into programming and a creative expression via the self-built tasking. CSA as the followup looked logical if she had even a modicum of interest in tech or skills related to STEM fields with programming aspects. Would you recommend CSA vs CSP+CSP progression for someone not yet committed to a CS or STEM related pathing? I know CSP isn't considered particularly rigorous by any means, but as a vehicle for discovery and appreciation of the wider world of tech/computing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alice Lamb Posted August 7, 2022 Share Posted August 7, 2022 In reponse to the physics BC before Calculus family: Back in the dark ages, I took physics BC concurrently with AP Calc BC. The main thing I got out of the electricty and magnetism section was an great introduction to Calculus 3 topics. I still somehow scored a 4 on the physics exam while feeling totalling incompetent. I can't imagine watching the teacher do line integrals and apply Green, Gauss and Stokes calculus theorems before doing any differentiation or integration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farrar Posted August 7, 2022 Share Posted August 7, 2022 Since I know the social studies exams best I'll comment that while they can also be a punishing about of content and work for some kids... for kids who tear through this sort of thing easily and find both memorization and testing easy, I do think they're the one area where it's easier to emulate the basic public school highly competitive kid track. So a kid can potentially do one a year and have it be fine. And one of the reasons for that is that none of them are actually harder. Like, yeah, APUSH and Euro are marginally harder, but mostly they're all at the same level, just new content and a few new skills and themes, but very similar overall. That said, there's still a cumulative element. Doing Macro, Micro, US Gov, and Psych all in one year is a LOT. And doing any at all is still a choice. Kids going for STEM don't need them necessarily. Kids interesting in English don't really either. None of this is a must. And everything has an opportunity cost involved. If a kid does a bunch of AP exams... even the "easy" ones like AP US Gov... what are they not doing instead? Is it a passion project? A community theater production? A sport? A course on writing operas or building robots or planning cities or biochemistry or linguistics or...? Or maybe just having time for their mental health. I noticed that you poo-poo'ed gen ed community college courses as a reasonable dual enrollment option. There are some bad community colleges out there that can be a waste of time... but I have noticed that a lot of people on this board turn their noses up at community colleges when they're actually often pretty good for high school students. It's also okay to mix and match. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turkeypotpie Posted August 7, 2022 Author Share Posted August 7, 2022 42 minutes ago, Clemsondana said: Have you looked at a college course equivalency chart? In many cases, AP only covers freshman-level courses, while community colleges that offer associates degrees have sophomore (2000-level) classes. At one of my kid's preferred schools, you can type in any college and then type a course number and it will tell you what classes are equivalent (English 2008 at one school is English 2020 at another). I found some classes that didn't translate into certain majors (like the lack of the engineering statistics) but most sophomore English and social science classes transfered, as did 3 semesters of calculus and both calc-based physics and lab classes. As for what colleges care about with AP, I've heard it both ways. If you are happy to get a syllabus approved, it's not an issue. But, many colleges seem fine with a transcript that says 'Chemistry with AP' and a good score rather than using an approved syllabus. And, I'd also consider whether you can do more interesting things with some of the classes. Rather than AP Statistics, your spouse could teach an interesting class about medical statistics that would be unique on a transcript. My older considered the computer science APs, but then realized that my spouse could teach a much more interesting (and higher level) course on computing that seems to be a survey of college computer engineering. It's giving kid a real feel for what it would be like to major in computer engineering. After doing AP Chem and AP Bio, kid has a gap before they DE physics their senior year. Kid is choosing to do a bio 2 class at co-op that explores all sorts of non-traditional topics and varies each year based on student interest. I don't think that every single class that homeschoolers do needs to be interest-driven, but I would consider that your student doesn't have any classes that aren't interest-driven or that give the chance to explore. It's standard for schools, but loses one of the benefits of homeschooling. You say that your student likes to do art in bursts....there's no reason not to be counting some of that as school credits. Just note the hours spent if you don't have a good idea of what constitutes a class worth of material, and assign some art credits. You don't have to count everything that your student does as school credit, but if your student is spending hours a week making stop-motion animations and had to learn how to do basic coding or photography to do it, then I'd consider making it a credit. One other thing that I'm noticing is that you have years that have 3 science courses (bio, env sci, and marine bio) and years with 3 social sciences (gov, econ, and psych). Will your student be happy with this? I know you said that you could change gears, but it's just something to keep in mind, as is the fact that there is no math listed for 12th grade. Like I said earlier, if you just like taking tests and are happy with the traditional AP format, then it's fine to go with that. But, if you have a kid who isn't sure what they want to do, taking 3 science courses one year and then taking 3 social sciences another, espcially at an AP level, could be enough to turn them off on those topics. My older does 8 credits every year (that's as many as our umbrella will count). We have the main 4 every year and have a foreign language for 3 of the years and in their first 2 years they used some of the additonal credits to fulfill the generic health and PE and fine arts requirements. Kid did a few random credits in areas of interest (science fiction elective, horticulture elective, a couple of coding classes), but as kid moves into their last 2 years they are starting to gravitate towards classes that are in fields that kid might want to study in college. Even the earlier electives helped kid make decisions - coding is fun! Horticulture is somewhat interesting, but gardening is going to be a hobby, rather than farming being a lifestyle! So, we built on coding to create the computing class this year. If kid continues to like it, then their senior year will be focused on doing more study in that field, or taking classes needed in preparation to do more work (physics is needed before circuits, for instance), or maybe doing an internship of some sort. It may not be an issue for your student, but the clumping of lots of one field in certain years may create some challlenges around burnout if they turn out to not be interested in the topics very much. I should have stated up front that we do consider her art as credit-worthy development. Facilitating that as best we can is a major goal for us and we plan to do that as much as possible, and it will be on her transcript. I have no compunction about that part of the curriculum, but did not include it in my original post when I should have. It was more the AP-centric nature of the course progressions I was programming that I was looking for fresh eyes on originally. I used UF's credit equivalency chart as my North Star (https://catalog.ufl.edu/UGRD/academic-advising/exam-credit/#examstext), and saw other state institutions of roughly that level have similar numbers. There is a lot of deviation of course, with certain well regarded publics like UVA and so forth having much stricter credit policies. My concern for DE vs AP was in transferability. Aside from not having local access to a major university, there's nothing in particular keeping us in Florida aside from this was where my last duty station was before retirement. DE credits may be great for the FL system, but if she decided to attend across the country it would not have the same level of recognition as the universal AP credit, highly dependent on school. This is a hedging-our-bets look at it given she hasn't expressed any particular college or location yet to focus on. I'm sort of building a baseline for us to default from as she picks out what, where, and how (and if) she wants to go and study. The heavy science this year (bio, APES, marine) is a really good point. Bio is the emphasis sci, with enviro block-scheduled and an attempt to capitalize on chem/bio being fresh. Marine bio is interest driven and a bit more ad-hoc, plus we are near some interesting coastal ecologies. My wife does the enviro and marine side, with me as bio, and we're trying to link it up together for a cohesive whole as we go. Gov/Econ/psych. Good point. Gov is a requirement, and Econ highly recommended. I expect a 1 semester gov, 1 semester macro might be more appropriate. I find micro interesting and would have to find time and interest to make that one happen if she was amenable. Your points on clumping though is really sticking with me, no pun intended. I need to think about this and its a great warning against burn out or over-saturation in the schedule. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turkeypotpie Posted August 7, 2022 Author Share Posted August 7, 2022 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Farrar said: Since I know the social studies exams best I'll comment that while they can also be a punishing about of content and work for some kids... for kids who tear through this sort of thing easily and find both memorization and testing easy, I do think they're the one area where it's easier to emulate the basic public school highly competitive kid track. So a kid can potentially do one a year and have it be fine. And one of the reasons for that is that none of them are actually harder. Like, yeah, APUSH and Euro are marginally harder, but mostly they're all at the same level, just new content and a few new skills and themes, but very similar overall. That said, there's still a cumulative element. Doing Macro, Micro, US Gov, and Psych all in one year is a LOT. And doing any at all is still a choice. Kids going for STEM don't need them necessarily. Kids interesting in English don't really either. None of this is a must. And everything has an opportunity cost involved. If a kid does a bunch of AP exams... even the "easy" ones like AP US Gov... what are they not doing instead? Is it a passion project? A community theater production? A sport? A course on writing operas or building robots or planning cities or biochemistry or linguistics or...? Or maybe just having time for their mental health. I noticed that you poo-poo'ed gen ed community college courses as a reasonable dual enrollment option. There are some bad community colleges out there that can be a waste of time... but I have noticed that a lot of people on this board turn their noses up at community colleges when they're actually often pretty good for high school students. It's also okay to mix and match. I should say psych was an interest area that was touched on for a half credit or so in middle school. My spouse has an education credentials in the nursing field and wanted to bring some more perspective on that side of things. I agree that both Econs mixed with gov may be overwhelming, but was "mentally justifying it" with an open math slot in that time frame. It might be more realistic to say it's a placeholder depending on STEM/humanities/etc track interest to supersede it. Edited August 7, 2022 by turkeypotpie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farrar Posted August 7, 2022 Share Posted August 7, 2022 Oh, I just realized you don't have any math at all down senior year. Don't do that. Colleges don't like that. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clemsondana Posted August 7, 2022 Share Posted August 7, 2022 I can believe that your particular CC doesn't transfer well to schools that you are considering, but it's not a general rule. Our local CC transfers to some of the large out of state flagships at the same rate that it transfers to the in-state colleges. At older's preferred school, almost everything transfers, and former students have also gone to out of state colleges that accepted pretty much everything, allowing them the space to add a second major. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScoutTN Posted August 7, 2022 Share Posted August 7, 2022 Well, looks un-fun to me. All stuff your kid can do at school. Why homeschool if you don’t take advantage of the opportunity to follow interests, tailor to your particular student and in general think outside the box? I would have her choose a few high interest, high challenge APs each year and then find or create something truly interesting to study for the other courses. The process of doing that might be very educational in itself! 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daijobu Posted August 8, 2022 Share Posted August 8, 2022 3 hours ago, turkeypotpie said: AP Lit is a backstop 'maybe' for senior year as a default position to explore higher level lit on a humanities track. A bit of an either/or with higher sci for the STEM side if she wanted to go one direction or another. I need 4 year credits for ELA in most uni recommendations. I've been using the admission reqs and suggestions from the big five or so public schools in FL for my baselines. The FL Bright Futures option for funding is she hits the SAT/ACT, credit, and volunteer hours is also a compelling benefit. As for as skipping CSP for CS-A, I was concerned going in to a raw programming formal course might be too much or too heavy for structured comp sci. I liked that CSP from a provider like code.org, the Harvard CS50 AP-CSP, etc gave a lot of time and emphasis into the wide range of applications and the creative side of CS and still lead into programming and a creative expression via the self-built tasking. CSA as the followup looked logical if she had even a modicum of interest in tech or skills related to STEM fields with programming aspects. Would you recommend CSA vs CSP+CSP progression for someone not yet committed to a CS or STEM related pathing? I know CSP isn't considered particularly rigorous by any means, but as a vehicle for discovery and appreciation of the wider world of tech/computing? I recommend for senior year English, something specific, like Shakespeare or science fiction or American literature or whatever. AP English Comp is a nice general English class, so let's now apply our skills to something that interests your student. There's little reason to take a second English survey course. This is also an example of the flexibility homeschooling provides. What kinds of things does your student enjoy reading and discussing? I happen to think CS is very important, especially for someone interested in sciences, even marine biology. With the time you save by cutting out some of those unimpressively easy time-suck AP classes, I would devote to a solid background in computer science: Year 1 (sophomore?): Study independently Python Programming for the Absolute Beginner, the first half only through OOP. Work through all the exercises. Year 2 (junior): Take AoPS Introduction to Python and Intermediate Python Year 3 (senior): Take AP CS A. (It will be an easy 5 at this point.) More importantly, think about a capstone project, for example doing some work modeling ocean temperatures or migration patterns or whatever marine biologists do these days. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8filltheheart Posted August 8, 2022 Share Posted August 8, 2022 I just wanted to affirm Farrar's post about your dd looking like a cookie cutter, non-interesting applicant when she applies to college. She will look like every other ps student applying. The question is then why bother homeschooling. (My kids have very unique courses on their transcripts bc I only homeschool to NOT be like a school. I think schools have failed, so why try to emulate them??) FWIW, I have 2 kids who attended college on the most competitive scholarships their universities offered. (All of my 4 yr U kids have received scholarships, but these 2 were selected for selective programs that offered a lot of perks.) 1 took 2 APs (chem and BC) and then DE for upper level math and physics. Every other subject was done at home with me. The other took NO APs, and only DE for 2nd semester sr yr, so not even a grade for the class. She did every subject at home with the exception of Russian which she used a wonderful online tutor for. What made them stand out? Their interests. Their internal motivation to study at high levels. Their "them-ness." The one ds I mentioned above in this thread. (He graduated almost completing a minor in both math and physics.) My dd loved languages. She had 15 foreign language crs on her transcript. She taught herself French to fluency. (I don't know any French at all.) She had courses like Russian history, French history studied in French, a semester lit course focused on War and Peace, another on CS Lewis's apologetic works, another on fairy tales. All that to say, they absolutely do NOT need to take the approach of APs and school room. Homeschooling offers so much more. When they are asked, why did you homeschool? They can respond honestly....bc of the opportunities. 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daijobu Posted August 8, 2022 Share Posted August 8, 2022 Agree, do not leave out math senior year. Linear algebra might be a good choice for marine biology. This might be a good question to ask your student's research mentor. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted August 8, 2022 Share Posted August 8, 2022 I completely agree with 8FillTheHeart. It looks like a replica of a very demanding public school. One reason I dislike APs and chose not to pursue them for my own kids is that they leave no room for rabbit trails and interests because you have to teach precisely what's on the test. What does your DD want of her highschool education? What is she interested in learning about, how does she want to structure her time, where does she want to set the focus? For mine, one major advantage of homeschooling was having agency over their own curriculum and being able to follow their interests, both academic and extracurricular. With your heavy, all-AP, course load, there doesn't seem to be a lot of room for that. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turkeypotpie Posted August 8, 2022 Author Share Posted August 8, 2022 12 hours ago, Farrar said: Oh, I just realized you don't have any math at all down senior year. Don't do that. Colleges don't like that. Oof. We'll get moving on that, thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turkeypotpie Posted August 8, 2022 Author Share Posted August 8, 2022 10 hours ago, 8filltheheart said: I just wanted to affirm Farrar's post about your dd looking like a cookie cutter, non-interesting applicant when she applies to college. She will look like every other ps student applying. The question is then why bother homeschooling. (My kids have very unique courses on their transcripts bc I only homeschool to NOT be like a school. I think schools have failed, so why try to emulate them??) FWIW, I have 2 kids who attended college on the most competitive scholarships their universities offered. (All of my 4 yr U kids have received scholarships, but these 2 were selected for selective programs that offered a lot of perks.) 1 took 2 APs (chem and BC) and then DE for upper level math and physics. Every other subject was done at home with me. The other took NO APs, and only DE for 2nd semester sr yr, so not even a grade for the class. She did every subject at home with the exception of Russian which she used a wonderful online tutor for. What made them stand out? Their interests. Their internal motivation to study at high levels. Their "them-ness." The one ds I mentioned above in this thread. (He graduated almost completing a minor in both math and physics.) My dd loved languages. She had 15 foreign language crs on her transcript. She taught herself French to fluency. (I don't know any French at all.) She had courses like Russian history, French history studied in French, a semester lit course focused on War and Peace, another on CS Lewis's apologetic works, another on fairy tales. All that to say, they absolutely do NOT need to take the approach of APs and school room. Homeschooling offers so much more. When they are asked, why did you homeschool? They can respond honestly....bc of the opportunities. I love this post and perspective. THANK YOU to everyone who took the time to give me guidance here. It has given us so much to think about. This is all exactly what I was looking for. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turkeypotpie Posted August 8, 2022 Author Share Posted August 8, 2022 11 hours ago, ScoutTN said: Well, looks un-fun to me. All stuff your kid can do at school. Why homeschool if you don’t take advantage of the opportunity to follow interests, tailor to your particular student and in general think outside the box? I would have her choose a few high interest, high challenge APs each year and then find or create something truly interesting to study for the other courses. The process of doing that might be very educational in itself! Our own 'why homeschool' began with a lot of military moves that made continuity in a local school system impossible, then eventually a hard look at how wasteful her time was in class lost in a sea of kids and piled on every night with busywork dominating her time. It was bad enough that us as parents were putting in full days and sometimes nights at work, but even when we were all at home together the kiddo would be poring over worksheets and assignments. It was awful. So for us, freedom of how to approach her education and hands-on family time are huge benefits for our homeschooling. Yes, the AP courses have a long list of topics to cover for their particular subject, but for the core classes we've been exploring they seem to be very worthy items for pursuing and we have the freedom to select our books and materials, set our own pacing, assessments, grading standards, learning order, etc. I like the way they have chem, bio, and history set up. I can't yet judge some of the future courses so my assessment may change, but we aren't so much 'teaching to the test' as exploring a large body of material in good depth the way we want to. We can judge what independent work we assign based on her available time and what she might have assigned in her other classes between us as the parent teaching team, measures that a public school teacher wouldn't consider (why should they care or be compelled to discover all the homework assignments for all other teachers in their grade at that school?). We can find engaging YouTube creators who can bring some more life or interest or expertise to the subject (so many covering specific AP topics and in simple progressions!), and can drop them and go with another set any time if they aren't connecting with kiddo. We select our own problem sets. So it does give us out-of-the-box, but with the constraint of a topic checklist for coverage. Class for kiddo becomes one-on-one discussion and exploration of the topic with the parent-tutor. If we get hung up on a topic, we can judge whether to hold in place and keep working on it, hitting it from a different angle, come back to it later, or drop it all together if we judge it to be less important than another topics. This is all hugely important to us, and one of the reasons we found ourselves leaning into the AP model. Even if we are replicating a public school model in class pathing, this is also family time, and I can't overstate how great it is that I can read Ghenghis Khan and the Making of the Modern World together with her as we hack through modern history as a collaborative goal. We saw most schools with strict requirements on who and when they can take certain courses in very set paths with prerequisites (no AP Chem without Chem I...no AP Bio without Bio I...taking Calc BC requires a go-ahead from another teacher, or exam scores, or whatever. So.Many.Prereqs just to knock out bio/chem/physics) and notoriously oppressive amounts of homework. Our kiddo never loses sleep because she can't get through her whole workload at night. She still has time to decompress or pursue other activities (especially art). So many traditional school students report hectic sleep-deprivation pacing and workload, especially the ones pursuing college prep tracks. We can be the judges of if she is ready for a course, not their published course path or the whims of their decision-maker in the school. Yes, the end-of-course exams are a levy against our time, but test taking skills are an unfortunate necessity that she'll have to deal with in any future educational environment, and the AP exam scores aren't the same as the scores and grades for the course itself, which we can assess completely independently. We get the freedom to do our test review prior to the exam as much or little as we want, and really dig in on weaknesses. The open standards and plethora of materials out there for every AP class make this very straightforward. Lastly, depending on institution, this really is a good opportunity to pile on some early college credits. I've been using the Florida university standards to guide our thinking on this, but many state systems are similar. If we even get to half of the courses on the overly-ambitious list in my original post, then the majority of her gen eds will be complete and she will have unlocked a lot more freedom in her future schedule for interest-based classes, potential minor concentration, or just free time/earlier graduation. Also huge, huge benefit. Those gen eds aren't going anywhere, and being able to focus on her major right out of the gate in college would be a wonderful leg up. The burden on us now by following this kind of track and doing some of these courses doesn't seem insurmountable, but I do recognize the constraints and challenges particularly with an aggressive junior or senior year. So especially for core science (bio/chem/physics), math (stats + calc), socsci (modern world, us, gov), and ELA, I'm enthusiastic at the opportunity to offer it. Based on the outstanding feedback here, we have a lot of tinkering to do (especially in the upper class years) to shake out a more interest-driven path, but I think a strong set of bones in this body of courses for the core offerings at minimum still favors consideration of AP. That said, many of the perspectives stated here have been strong proponents of DE, so we'll explore that more starting next year and give it fresh eyes. 11 hours ago, daijobu said: I recommend for senior year English, something specific, like Shakespeare or science fiction or American literature or whatever. AP English Comp is a nice general English class, so let's now apply our skills to something that interests your student. There's little reason to take a second English survey course. This is also an example of the flexibility homeschooling provides. What kinds of things does your student enjoy reading and discussing? I happen to think CS is very important, especially for someone interested in sciences, even marine biology. With the time you save by cutting out some of those unimpressively easy time-suck AP classes, I would devote to a solid background in computer science: Year 1 (sophomore?): Study independently Python Programming for the Absolute Beginner, the first half only through OOP. Work through all the exercises. Year 2 (junior): Take AoPS Introduction to Python and Intermediate Python Year 3 (senior): Take AP CS A. (It will be an easy 5 at this point.) More importantly, think about a capstone project, for example doing some work modeling ocean temperatures or migration patterns or whatever marine biologists do these days. I'll order that one as well, thank you for the advice! We've been kicking around the idea of capstone projects, and leaning toward a programming challenge makes a lot of sense. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcadia Posted August 8, 2022 Share Posted August 8, 2022 2 hours ago, turkeypotpie said: . If we even get to half of the courses on the overly-ambitious list in my original post, then the majority of her gen eds will be complete and she will have unlocked a lot more freedom in her future schedule for interest-based classes, potential minor concentration, or just free time/earlier graduation. Also huge, huge benefit. Those gen eds aren't going anywhere, and being able to focus on her major right out of the gate in college would be a wonderful leg up. . That said, many of the perspectives stated here have been strong proponents of DE, so we'll explore that more starting next year and give it fresh eyes. My teens were the ones who wanted general education requirements done because of the large class sizes in state universities for gen ed. The upper division classes have smaller class sizes. Our focus was on state universities because that’s what my husband is willing to pay four years for. My oldest, DS17, was rejected from all the state universities he applied for as a computer science major and so would be applying as a transfer to our local private university. While we could afford to pay for four years there, it would be nice to pay for fewer years. My teens, especially my oldest, has always wanted to be back in brick and mortar school. Dual enrollment was our cost effective way of doing it versus sending both kids to the cheapest local private high school at $25k per year per child. Dual enrollment for us is free if we didn’t exceed the free limit. Otherwise it cost us $150 for 5 credit for a quarter. DS17 attended the community college commencement ceremony in June and was so happy. We aren’t in any local homeschool organization so the community college commencement ceremony double up as his high school graduation. My teens have always said they don’t wish to stay in dorms and give high preference to colleges within commute distance. For our purpose, AP and DE is fine since the state universities and local private have transfer agreements for the DE credits. Your daughter has take APHUG so you probably understand what I am saying about my kids. Both my kids have covered the contents for HUG from daily conversations. DS17 didn’t want to take the APHUG exam and took human geography as a dual enrollment class in summer for an easy A which helps in community college GPA. He is my fast worker so taking multiple classes in summer isn’t an issue. DS16 is my slow worker and took the exam without taking a class and did well just on going over a test prep book and past year FRQs two days before. While the community college human geography would be an easy class for him, it is a time suck since he is slow in reading speed as well as perfectionist in writing so that was a time suck as well. So for him, taking the APHUG exam to get the credit is more time efficient. AP macro & micro as well as stats was something my kids already have a background in from general conversations. They did 6 weeks in person summer classes for those and had fun with the class discussions. I can “teach” my teens econs and stats but they want classmates in a classroom. AP CompSci A was the exam that didn’t give any credit for their community college. My teens took it as their first AP exam to get their feet wet and see how they feel about AP exams. They started from the bottom for computer science classes in community college for dual enrollment. DS17 has more community college credits than would be allowed to transfer. However community credits are so affordable that he is taking whatever is recommended by the private college he wants to transfer to just to be in classrooms and labs and also to have a better foundation for upper level classes. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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