Disappointed by this school year with my oldest.

[Ting Tang]

My oldest is very bright, but he is not very enthusiastic about doing his personal best with his school work.   I sometimes think he should go back to a brick and mortar school because he is vocal about not enjoying home schooling, and maybe external influences would cause him to care.  He will be in 5th grade next year.

It was a frustrating year.  He would know how to do math, for example, but he'd be completely careless on quizzes.  He did classical composition this year from Memoria Press. He did not enjoy it.  We just finished the last lesson for the year.   His final paper was a mess, despite it being a third draft.  Some things that were initially correct were wrong.  It was obvious it was due to carelessness.  

It's as if our thoughts do not matter with regard to quality and output.

I just feel so bummed.  Our local public school is not very good, and we'd likely look into a slightly better-than-that private school.  I've been combing through curriculums that I feel might help ignite that spark.  But I also have three other children, and sometimes I just need him to care, period.

So if we continued next year with homeschooling, that would be in the line of habit training. I also feel tired and worn out.  My son did the bare minimum with many subjects this year, took shortcuts, etc.  I know that.  Neither my husband nor I were this way, so I admit we do get frustrated.  We are also lousy with consequences.  I'm just feeling like this school year was a failure.  I'm sure he learned, but he did not put forth his best effort.  I guess I am just venting.  I don't feel like the year was a failure with my others at all.

[Shoes+Ships+SealingWax]

What was your response when he was “careless” on quizzes, or turned in a final draft that was “a mess”? Did you accept the work? Were there any consequences for not completing the work to your standards? 

Why have you chosen to homeschool him & what reasons do you have for wanting to continue? What does he dislike about homeschooling? Is he sharing his opinion (reasonably) respectfully? Do you agree that his complaints are areas for improvement?  If the two of you could open a dialogue about how things have gone - perhaps once the year is completed & both of you have had a short break - that may lead to some solutions. At the very least it would give him an opportunity to feel heard & you an opportunity to hear him out without the distraction of what else should be getting done at that moment. 

[PeterPan]

Are you from a culture where best is required? Many bright people skate by in school which leaves them energy to do things they actually find interesting.

He needs checklists with clear expectations and enforcement of the list. The list can say no spelling errors, etc, whatever is essential to the task. 
 

Have you had a break? It’s ok to break, regroup and make a plan for next year. When I get these feelings it’s usually that my dc has grown and is ready for more structure or expectations. If it wasn’t in writing, you only implied it. 
 

Take the break you deserve. As far as school why is he saying he doesn’t like homeschooling? Does he want more structure, competition, time with peers? You may need to get honest about those needs. He may be bored. Have you looked at Outschool? 

[Ting Tang]

18 minutes ago, Shoes+Ships+SealingWax said:

What was your response when he was “careless” on quizzes, or turned in a final draft that was “a mess”? Did you accept the work? Were there any consequences for not completing the work to your standards? 

Why have you chosen to homeschool him & what reasons do you have for wanting to continue? What does he dislike about homeschooling? Is he sharing his opinion (reasonably) respectfully? Do you agree that his complaints are areas for improvement?  If the two of you could open a dialogue about how things have gone - perhaps once the year is completed & both of you have had a short break - that may lead to some solutions. At the very least it would give him an opportunity to feel heard & you an opportunity to hear him out without the distraction of what else should be getting done at that moment. 

We would have him redo the incorrect problems and show his work on his math quizzes, but it was frustrating to me.  I had him re-read his final draft this time.  I think if I had him redo it, he would make more mistakes that he hadn't made before.  It is our fault for not having any consequences, besides taking away his tablet.  I did also make him clean when he didn't seem interested in school work, but it usually was something beyond a normal chore.  I think he preferred the cleaning.

We are Covid homeschoolers. I want to continue because our local school has gone even further downhill in so many ways.  One of the paraprofessionals confirms it is not good there.  The school board, in my opinion, is abusive to the teachers.  They've had outside organizations in...  But my son says it is boring and he doesn't see his friends. We tried to remedy that by finally getting him into an extracurricular, once we felt it was safer. We've been cautious because my mother-in-law is going through pancreatic cancer treatments. So there were not too may outings.

But my husband take him out to do outdoorsy things a lot.  Sometimes I think my son thinks life should be a YouTube video.  Again, this is our fault.

I'm disappointed, not just in his attitude, but in us, too, as his parents. We will be mostly done this week with school, except he has lingering spelling lessons and American history novels that went unread....

[Ting Tang]

11 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Are you from a culture where best is required? Many bright people skate by in school which leaves them energy to do things they actually find interesting.

He needs checklists with clear expectations and enforcement of the list. The list can say no spelling errors, etc, whatever is essential to the task. 
 

Have you had a break? It’s ok to break, regroup and make a plan for next year. When I get these feelings it’s usually that my dc has grown and is ready for more structure or expectations. If it wasn’t in writing, you only implied it. 
 

Take the break you deserve. As far as school why is he saying he doesn’t like homeschooling? Does he want more structure, competition, time with peers? You may need to get honest about those needs. He may be bored. Have you looked at Outschool? 

We're not, but my husband and I demanded the best from ourselves.  My son enjoys learning outside of his school work and is quite inquisitive, but some things need to get done, of course.  I think a checklist would be a good idea.  And yes, I need a break, no I haven't had one, lol.  He hates homeschooling because he wants to be around his friends all day. I think he has some fantasy memory of what it was like!  He's now doing one extracurricular and has had playdates here and there, but it doesn't seem to be enough.  Another thing is he thinks life should be an adventure all the time. My husband takes him on hikes and whatnot at least 1-2 times a week, but my son also enjoys watching this youtube channel, the Outdoor Boys.  I think it is bad we allowed it, even though that content isn't necessarily bad.  We tried outschool, but he was pretty shy on video.  I do think we are much to blame.  A lot of change would definitely be needed for next year, assuming I have it in me, lol.

Edited May 11, 2022 by Ting Tang

[Ting Tang]

And thank you both for helping!

[PeterPan]

3 minutes ago, Ting Tang said:

We've been cautious because my mother-in-law is going through pancreatic cancer treatments. So there were not too may outings.

That’s stressful. Are you increasing social now? 

[PeterPan]

1 minute ago, Ting Tang said:

he was pretty shy on video

Just throwing this out there but maybe get evals and see if more is going on. This would be pretty classic adhd plus anxiety . 
 

ADHD thrives on structure, clear exoectations, and herd effect to help them stay on track.

How old is he? 

[freesia]

No, this is not your fault.  I had the same complaints about my very bright first born at the same age.  My dh, a hard working man with a doctorate, said to me, "No 10 year old boy wants to do school.  Of course he prefers playing with Legos."  He was right.  It is a complete truth that 5th grade boys, on the whole, just don't care about doing school or what their work looks like.  They like to learn, but often what they like to learn is not something we, as mother-teachers, want them to learn. You have not failed.

Yes, do some habit training. Absolutely. But try not to tie it to failure or desire.  He needs to learn to do what he's asked without complaining--that's a life skill.  But you can't make him care about something he doesn't care about.  I almost 100% guarantee you that he would not care more at school.  That's not to say that his output might not be higher or of better quality--maybe. But I think this happens more when they are a little older.  I like my kids to have outside eyes on their writing occasionally starting in middle school.  It doesn't have to be a full blown class, but a friend of yours who will grade once in a while or an 8 week Lantern English class.

True story happy ending: The above mentioned child did eventually care about school (but probably not until closer to 16.) Now he LOVES school.  He got into 10 colleges with lots of scholarships, did an honors program, majored in writing heavy majors (I can't tell you about how much I dispaired of his writing when he was in 5th grade), was editor of the school newspaper, finished college with a 3.9 and is now fully employed.  He would love more than anything to go on in school and get a PhD in philosophy.  Maybe that will happen for him.  I can guarantee you he was just like your ds at that age.  It is normal, so normal that it might be a bit concerning if he weren't.

So, take a really deep breath.  There are many years left and a lot of maturing. I thought that homeschool would mean I could always make it something they loved.  That wasn't realistic.

[Ting Tang]

Just now, PeterPan said:

Just throwing this out there but maybe get evals and see if more is going on. This would be pretty classic adhd plus anxiety . 
 

ADHD thrives on structure, clear exoectations, and herd effect to help them stay on track.

How old is he? 

He does well with in-person activities, but he started to cry during the outschool.  I think he is self-conscious.  He is 10.  He was also severely lead-poisoned in utero and as a baby (we had lead in our drinking water and moved away as soon as we found out).  So I'm not shocked if some of that is manifesting because it has affected him physically (no enamel on his teeth). I think you are definitely right that the lack of structure had not helped our situation.  I'm thinking more important than curriculum is working hard on these habits---us and him.  

[Ting Tang]

1 minute ago, freesia said:

No, this is not your fault.  I had the same complaints about my very bright first born at the same age.  My dh, a hard working man with a doctorate, said to me, "No 10 year old boy wants to do school.  Of course he prefers playing with Legos."  He was right.  It is a complete truth that 5th grade boys, on the whole, just don't care about doing school or what their work looks like.  They like to learn, but often what they like to learn is not something we, as mother-teachers, want them to learn. You have not failed.

Yes, do some habit training. Absolutely. But try not to tie it to failure or desire.  He needs to learn to do what he's asked without complaining--that's a life skill.  But you can't make him care about something he doesn't care about.  I almost 100% guarantee you that he would not care more at school.  That's not to say that his output might not be higher or of better quality--maybe. But I think this happens more when they are a little older.  I like my kids to have outside eyes on their writing occasionally starting in middle school.  It doesn't have to be a full blown class, but a friend of yours who will grade once in a while or an 8 week Lantern English class.

True story happy ending: The above mentioned child did eventually care about school (but probably not until closer to 16.) Now he LOVES school.  He got into 10 colleges with lots of scholarships, did an honors program, majored in writing heavy majors (I can't tell you about how much I dispaired of his writing when he was in 5th grade), was editor of the school newspaper, finished college with a 3.9 and is now fully employed.  He would love more than anything to go on in school and get a PhD in philosophy.  Maybe that will happen for him.  I can guarantee you he was just like your ds at that age.  It is normal, so normal that it might be a bit concerning if he weren't.

So, take a really deep breath.  There are many years left and a lot of maturing. I thought that homeschool would mean I could always make it something they loved.  That wasn't realistic.

Thank you!  Congratulations on your son, that is awesome and good to read!  I have heard this as well about boys.  He is out morel mushroom hunting right now.  He likes to go farming with dad.  He will even say he wants to be a farmer, so he needs to observe them, lol.  He is very cunning!  I don't really want to put him back into our public school since he started to get into trouble.  Private school is expensive---doable, but I was hoping to save that money for now and do what I can for as long as I can.  I hoped to have seen more progress from him.   But hoping is not enough.  We definitely need to work on expectations and consequences.  I will have to look up Lantern.  Never heard of it!  But I was thinking it would help to have someone else look at his papers.

[freesia]

Lantern has 8 week classes.  A company named Write At Home used to have a service where you could pay for a paper to be graded.  I don't know if it still has that.

[Ting Tang]

1 hour ago, freesia said:

Lantern has 8 week classes.  A company named Write At Home used to have a service where you could pay for a paper to be graded.  I don't know if it still has that.

I just checked it out.  It sounds great honestly!  I had my heart almost set on using Michael Clay Thompson language arts. Maybe I still can but add in these classes?   He is very smart, reads and comprehends well above age level.  I know it is not that he isn't capable. It makes me sad because his slightly younger brother really struggles, despite putting forth the effort.  

[8filltheheart]

It is a rare 10 yob who wants to spend time doing school.  Huckleberry Finn and Tom Sawyer definitely have soul mates.  😉

FWIW, I would break things down into manageable bite size steps with complete oversight.  When my kids are that age, a writing assignment is spread over an entire week:  M-brainstorm/gather ideas, T-organize/outline, W-rough draft (write skipping every other line), H-revise and improve (with me), F-final copy (expected to be neat bc at this pt it is just copywork).

For math, I would set firm boundaries.  I would try grading as he goes.  For every problem he misses due to careless errors, I would assign an additional problem, I would inform him ahead of time and be very consistent.  Work needs to be shown and neat.  If he complains, I would assign another additional problem.  I refuse to listen to complaining.  It is a no-go here.

FWIW, I'd talk to your dh about having a family meeting.  I do not believe that 10 yr old's get to make extremely important decisions about their futures themselves.  So, our family wouldn't give him a say in homeschooling.  I would, otoh, do everything in my power to make homeschooling a positive experience and would make sure he has plenty of opportunities to be around other kids consistently.  Our family meeting would discuss how homeschooling is not a MOM job; it is a family responsibility.  Every single person is expected to carry their weight.  When their weight isn't carried, someone else has to pick up the slack impacting every single other person in the household.  That is selfish and completely unfair to everyone.  Then I would inform consequences for said not pulling their weight.  (In the past we have had things like chore jars.  Someone complains and drags their feet and makes everyone miserable, they get the opportunity to pull a chore out of the chore jar.  Cleaning enough bathrooms, scrubbing trash cans, pulling weeds, sweeping porches, etc tends to deter repeat offenders.)  I would also talk to dh about being the "principal."  Serious negative interactions during the day can be dealt with by dad.  If it takes him supervising the chore jar chores, then that is what it takes.

Equally, incorporate fun things into the week.  Afternoon tea parties once per week to share a memorized poem, show off a piece of artwork, play a solo, sing a song, etc while eating a treat and drinking tea/lemonade, etc.   Even my boys loved afternoon tea parties (you can even spend time baking cookies for them to decorate, or a cake, or making fancy sandwiches or decorative veggie trays, etc)

I would also pick some themes he wants to learn more about.  Knights, pirates, castles, mummies, sharks, snakes, etc.....something that really interests him and will be excited to learn.

[Ting Tang]

29 minutes ago, 8filltheheart said:

It is a rare 10 yob who wants to spend time doing school.  Huckleberry Finn and Tom Sawyer definitely have soul mates.  😉

FWIW, I would break things down into manageable bite size steps with complete oversight.  When my kids are that age, a writing assignment is spread over an entire week:  M-brainstorm/gather ideas, T-organize/outline, W-rough draft (write skipping every other line), H-revise and improve (with me), F-final copy (expected to be neat bc at this pt it is just copywork).

For math, I would set firm boundaries.  I would try grading as he goes.  For every problem he misses due to careless errors, I would assign an additional problem, I would inform him ahead of time and be very consistent.  Work needs to be shown and neat.  If he complains, I would assign another additional problem.  I refuse to listen to complaining.  It is a no-go here.

FWIW, I'd talk to your dh about having a family meeting.  I do not believe that 10 yr old's get to make extremely important decisions about their futures themselves.  So, our family wouldn't give him a say in homeschooling.  I would, otoh, do everything in my power to make homeschooling a positive experience and would make sure he has plenty of opportunities to be around other kids consistently.  Our family meeting would discuss how homeschooling is not a MOM job; it is a family responsibility.  Every single person is expected to carry their weight.  When their weight isn't carried, someone else has to pick up the slack impacting every single other person in the household.  That is selfish and completely unfair to everyone.  Then I would inform consequences for said not pulling their weight.  (In the past we have had things like chore jars.  Someone complains and drags their feet and makes everyone miserable, they get the opportunity to pull a chore out of the chore jar.  Cleaning enough bathrooms, scrubbing trash cans, pulling weeds, sweeping porches, etc tends to deter repeat offenders.)  I would also talk to dh about being the "principal."  Serious negative interactions during the day can be dealt with by dad.  If it takes him supervising the chore jar chores, then that is what it takes.

Equally, incorporate fun things into the week.  Afternoon tea parties once per week to share a memorized poem, show off a piece of artwork, play a solo, sing a song, etc while eating a treat and drinking tea/lemonade, etc.   Even my boys loved afternoon tea parties (you can even spend time baking cookies for them to decorate, or a cake, or making fancy sandwiches or decorative veggie trays, etc)

I would also pick some themes he wants to learn more about.  Knights, pirates, castles, mummies, sharks, snakes, etc.....something that really interests him and will be excited to learn.

Thank you so much for these ideas --- and ha ha They sure do!

I think that is a good plan for math.

For writing, the lessons were spread out over 2 weeks, and a small chunk was assigned each day.  I'm thinking if we continue, something like Lantern would be great for him, even if it was just for part of the school year.  He's gotten away with this all year, so he needs to be reprogrammed.

I have to hand it to my husband.  He does take pride in being the principal, and he has yelled...  but we know that doesn't work.  So we need to both be better about setting boundaries.  I think I need to spend some serious time just planning and organizing how we are going to handle the habits/work ethic part of homeschooling.  

I like the positive ideas, too, though.  Sometimes I'm just trying to survive, I don't make it very fun.  I am hoping next year to let them take the lead on science, history/interdisciplinary types of studies.  The non-core stuff. 

[8filltheheart]

He's only going to be in 5th grade.  I'd start off the new school yr with math and writing and alternating between science/history/and literature.  I would do only those until new routines and habits start to form.  I would make a positive fun thing part of the core.  Make it a habit.  Once new routines and attitudes start to develop, then and only then would I start to make lit/history/science their own daily subjects.  I would probably start with 1 firm and the other 2 alternating and then gradually developing all 3.

[AnneGG]

I started lightening up after we moved last fall. It started out as survival and then became our normal. I am pleased with how it has worked out overall, although it certainly wasn’t a perfect year. We did three very formal school days a week and two flex days. Flex days were for all the fun stuff I had always wanted our homeschool to have but could never fit in. Board game days, documentary days, library scavenger hunts, nature study, tea times, whatever.  Surprisingly, we did complete most of core curric despite the modified schedule.
My 5th grader completed all of TGATB LA and Math, along with extra misc stuff I added in. He came from a school that used ACE so it was big transition for him. He had certainly developed some unsavory habits at the school. His effort level tends be bare minimum but he’s coming around. He wants to live off the land when he grows up and thinks school is a waste when he could be learning how to farm. So that’s what we did- a la Brave Writer style. He actually got a “job” at a strawberry farm (owned by a fellow homeschool family!) so that has helped motivate him as well. 
 

eta he not my biological child and I think that also plays a role in how well he works for me. His mom has a lot of trouble getting him to do the basics at home. So I feel for ya OP. I thinks it’s the age. 

Edited May 12, 2022 by AnneGG

[Brittany1116]

This was only year 1 or 2 for you right? Give yourself GRACE and a pat on the back! No one knows how to do it the first year. It took 3ish for me to be fully in my groove then I added a kid and moved one into middle school and had to regroup. Lol!

[Brittany1116]

Still thinking about this.

My older son is 11. He is highly self-motivated and competitive but that is starting to wane now that puberty is starting. I give him choice where reasonable. For example, I pick the curriculum and timeline for completion, but he can do them in whatever order or on whatever days he pleases. If he is having a crappy day, I cut him slack and we drop a subject or two. If he is reading some book he can't put down, the assigned reading can wait. If he is especially cheery and helpful in the kitchen, or decides to help his brother with a lesson to give me a break, he gets thanked and rewarded nicely. Some of his "work" is disguised as fun, such as ChessKids and garden chores. 

Any chance yours wants an old-fashioned penpal? 

[PeterPan]

7 hours ago, Ting Tang said:

He was also severely lead-poisoned in utero and as a baby

If you have evidence of this (bloodwork, etc.) you could probably get your insurance to pay for psych testing based on that. You could probably get it even without by saying you suspect ADHD and anxiety. I'm all for the go with the flow, assume it's just how he is thing, but sometimes that comes back to bite you in the butt. When something is significant enough that mom is posting about it on a public forum, usually that means more is going on. Lead exposure is connected to the type of symptoms you're describing. This article specifically mentions "lower conscientiousness." https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2729713  It sounds like some psych evals might help you quantify to what degree anything is going on and open some doors for you, by having the right words, to get you access to the right tools. Without the right words, you could burden him inappropriately. Evals head that off and allow you to go forward with information. Information is power here and could save you some heartache. If nothing is going on, then it's just all good and you know. But if something is going on due to that lead exposure, now would be the time to know.

Did he receive chelation or any form of treatment?

[PeterPan]

3 hours ago, Ting Tang said:

He does take pride in being the principal, and he has yelled...  but we know that doesn't work. 

When you're this frustrated, it's time for evals. It's interesting that he seems discrepant from your others. That would connect to his lead exposure that the others did not have. Honestly it is time for evals. You're recognizing that he's quite bright, which might mean that some of his difficulties are beyond volitional and reflect the lead exposure. 

If you've had evals and they're recent, pull the paperwork and come over to LC and we can help you sort through them to apply what you were given. There should have been several pages of recommendations, scores you can tease out, possibly some recommendations for further evals, etc.

Evals give you the information to avoid regrets.

[Ellie]

No need to be "disappointed" in anyone. It takes more than one year to figure out what works and how it works. Y'all are just babies.

[maize]

Lead poisoning is tied to ADHD.

And as others have said, it's very normal for ten year old boys to not want to do school.

If he is inquisitive and engages in learning activities outside of school work, my personal approach would be to do less school work. Figure out what is most important to do (math usually gets priority at my home as few children choose to engage in it on their own) and make that happen, but if he gets that work done (I'm thinking not more than two hours worth) he is free to do non-screen stuff for the next few hours. I use Google wifi and can turn the internet off to any or all devices. 

We have lots of books, Legos, musical instruments, bikes, shovels for digging holes....

Might be worth trying. 

We do this year-round.

So far my kids have thrived with this partial unschooling approach. They do a lot of reading, design their own board games, write stories, engage in extracurriculars. In high school we have used more tutoring, online classes, and dual enrollment, but even my high schoolers aren't averaging more than three hours of structured academics a day. My oldest is graduating this year, has a 4.0 in twenty hours of dual enrollment college classes and scholarships to several universities.

[Ting Tang]

9 hours ago, PeterPan said:

If you have evidence of this (bloodwork, etc.) you could probably get your insurance to pay for psych testing based on that. You could probably get it even without by saying you suspect ADHD and anxiety. I'm all for the go with the flow, assume it's just how he is thing, but sometimes that comes back to bite you in the butt. When something is significant enough that mom is posting about it on a public forum, usually that means more is going on. Lead exposure is connected to the type of symptoms you're describing. This article specifically mentions "lower conscientiousness." https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2729713  It sounds like some psych evals might help you quantify to what degree anything is going on and open some doors for you, by having the right words, to get you access to the right tools. Without the right words, you could burden him inappropriately. Evals head that off and allow you to go forward with information. Information is power here and could save you some heartache. If nothing is going on, then it's just all good and you know. But if something is going on due to that lead exposure, now would be the time to know.

Did he receive chelation or any form of treatment?

Hi!  Thank you so much. Yes, he did undergo medical chelation.  He got his lead through me and all I can think of is through taking baths and thawing frozen breast milk in leaded water.  His BLL was at one point 82.  We took him for evaluations through the special education office, but he did not qualify for anything.  When he was in school, he scored very well on tests and was placed into advanced groups since there was no formal gifted program.  BUT I do believe the lead poisoning has manifested in other ways, perhaps behaviorally. (Physically it affected his teeth and his digestive system.) He is overdue for a well-check, so maybe we can look into that.  The other child I often write about was also exposed to lead poisoning but only in utero.  He has a hole in his heart and has learning challenges.  

[Ting Tang]

12 hours ago, AnneGG said:

I started lightening up after we moved last fall. It started out as survival and then became our normal. I am pleased with how it has worked out overall, although it certainly wasn’t a perfect year. We did three very formal school days a week and two flex days. Flex days were for all the fun stuff I had always wanted our homeschool to have but could never fit in. Board game days, documentary days, library scavenger hunts, nature study, tea times, whatever.  Surprisingly, we did complete most of core curric despite the modified schedule.
My 5th grader completed all of TGATB LA and Math, along with extra misc stuff I added in. He came from a school that used ACE so it was big transition for him. He had certainly developed some unsavory habits at the school. His effort level tends be bare minimum but he’s coming around. He wants to live off the land when he grows up and thinks school is a waste when he could be learning how to farm. So that’s what we did- a la Brave Writer style. He actually got a “job” at a strawberry farm (owned by a fellow homeschool family!) so that has helped motivate him as well. 
 

eta he not my biological child and I think that also plays a role in how well he works for me. His mom has a lot of trouble getting him to do the basics at home. So I feel for ya OP. I thinks it’s the age. 

I like that idea of three formal days and two flex days. I would like to do something like that.  This has me torn on using MCT for language arts.  I think it would be good for him, but I also wonder if a typical structure would help us work on his habits.  Oh my goodness. My son always talks about "surviving."  Yep, he sometimes will verbalize he doesn't see the point of school. But in another breath he'll say which college he wants to attend.  Lately it has been BYU because the Outdoor Boys dad on YouTube went there.  Iol  I would also think the habits your son has with his other mom would affect your teaching.  Or he is just the same way with both of you, lol.

[Ting Tang]

8 hours ago, Ellie said:

No need to be "disappointed" in anyone. It takes more than one year to figure out what works and how it works. Y'all are just babies.

Thank you!  I feel like we've grown but still have a ways to go.  Maybe the third year will be the charm!

[Ting Tang]

10 hours ago, Brittany1116 said:

Still thinking about this.

My older son is 11. He is highly self-motivated and competitive but that is starting to wane now that puberty is starting. I give him choice where reasonable. For example, I pick the curriculum and timeline for completion, but he can do them in whatever order or on whatever days he pleases. If he is having a crappy day, I cut him slack and we drop a subject or two. If he is reading some book he can't put down, the assigned reading can wait. If he is especially cheery and helpful in the kitchen, or decides to help his brother with a lesson to give me a break, he gets thanked and rewarded nicely. Some of his "work" is disguised as fun, such as ChessKids and garden chores. 

Any chance yours wants an old-fashioned penpal? 

He might!  I should ask him.  He would have to improve his writing, lol.  This year we tried to do a full MP core at the start, and there were just so many little pieces.  The literature schedule has students go through the books very slowly before doing the workbooks.  We were just getting bogged down.  Right now he is flying through Roald Dahl books.  So there is that.  I keep buying them to get him to read more, lol.  I think a schedule/timeline would definitely help us.

[Ting Tang]

3 hours ago, maize said:

Lead poisoning is tied to ADHD.

And as others have said, it's very normal for ten year old boys to not want to do school.

If he is inquisitive and engages in learning activities outside of school work, my personal approach would be to do less school work. Figure out what is most important to do (math usually gets priority at my home as few children choose to engage in it on their own) and make that happen, but if he gets that work done (I'm thinking not more than two hours worth) he is free to do non-screen stuff for the next few hours. I use Google wifi and can turn the internet off to any or all devices. 

We have lots of books, Legos, musical instruments, bikes, shovels for digging holes....

Might be worth trying. 

We do this year-round.

So far my kids have thrived with this partial unschooling approach. They do a lot of reading, design their own board games, write stories, engage in extracurriculars. In high school we have used more tutoring, online classes, and dual enrollment, but even my high schoolers aren't averaging more than three hours of structured academics a day. My oldest is graduating this year, has a 4.0 in twenty hours of dual enrollment college classes and scholarships to several universities.

Yeppers.  And the defiance, which is somewhat normal... Fortunately, he does have those curiosities outside of school work.  He enjoys learning about the outdoors, artifact hunting (he can tell you the time periods and identify arrowheads), so I have been looking for those types of resources for next year.  I really like the idea of focusing on the cores such as math and language arts....the rest can be exploratory.  After I'd notified the school we wouldn't be back for another year, they randomly sent me a letter stating I would have to teach in the same subjects the equivalent time they do per week.  It indicated how many minutes per subject per week.  It made me nervous, so I joined the HSLDA.  

I like the ability to shut the Internet off, lol.

[Green Bean]

18 hours ago, Ting Tang said:

And thank you both for helping!

Have you looked at maybe a different platform like k12 as an independent or even as a charter public? He may do better for someone else. I’m just tossing that out there. We have enjoyed every course we used from them over the years. We have not used the math, though.

Lantern English is something I am looking at for one of mine. Sign your guy up for a class LOWER than what you think he “should” be doing to give him some confidence and a break. Kids burn out, too.

Edited May 12, 2022 by Green Bean

[Ting Tang]

1 hour ago, Green Bean said:

Have you looked at maybe a different platform like k12 as an independent or even as a charter public? He may do better for someone else. I’m just tossing that out there. We have enjoyed every course we used from them over the years. We have not used the math, though.

Lantern English is something I am looking at for one of mine. Sign your guy up for a class LOWER than what you think he “should” be doing to give him some confidence and a break. Kids burn out, too.

Thank you!  I believe I looked into it a long time ago, but it certainly wouldn't hurt to look again.  I do think it might be helpful to have someone else critique his work.  The worst thing is if I edit something, he will try to manipulate me by saying, "So you think I'm stupid?"  I really do like how the Lantern program looks!  I think we would try the sentence writing and then move onto the paragraph class.  My one concern is that the student is required to submit typed work.  And of course, the computer would automatically fix his errors.  I still want him to be able to be attentive to detail through handwriting.  Or maybe I am wrong in that thinking?  He hasn't learned to type, either. hmmm

[Green Bean]

2 hours ago, Ting Tang said:

Thank you!  I believe I looked into it a long time ago, but it certainly wouldn't hurt to look again.  I do think it might be helpful to have someone else critique his work.  The worst thing is if I edit something, he will try to manipulate me by saying, "So you think I'm stupid?"  I really do like how the Lantern program looks!  I think we would try the sentence writing and then move onto the paragraph class.  My one concern is that the student is required to submit typed work.  And of course, the computer would automatically fix his errors.  I still want him to be able to be attentive to detail through handwriting.  Or maybe I am wrong in that thinking?  He hasn't learned to type, either. hmmm

Actually, you can shut the auto correct feature off 

[Shoes+Ships+SealingWax]

23 hours ago, Ting Tang said:

I'm disappointed, not just in his attitude, but in us, too, as his parents. We will be mostly done this week with school, except he has lingering spelling lessons and American history novels that went unread....

Honestly, this sounds mostly like the end-of-year blahs. It’s your first homeschooling year. You’ve dealt with the pandemic, big changes, the major illness of a loved one - it’s a lot. Congratulate yourselves for getting through several big changes more-or-less unscathed, shelve the leftovers, & be done.

Once you’ve had a break, take some time to look back over the year; often you’ve completed more than you think. Then begin to make a plan for increased success next year, focusing on having concrete consequences for know trouble areas & incorporating more of things that went well. 

[Shoes+Ships+SealingWax]

3 hours ago, Ting Tang said:

The worst thing is if I edit something, he will try to manipulate me by saying, "So you think I'm stupid?"

I would definitely nip this sort of snark in the bud. You have a responsibility, as his parent and his teacher, to assist him in developing key skills. One aspect of that is acting as his editor - which is a critical relationship writers of all levels rely upon. You will not tolerate him degrading your role or taking offense to you doing your job. Period. 

For editing, I would set the expectation going forward that writing seldom has only one draft. Each composition will be turned in, edited, & then revised. At first focus only spelling, grammar, & mechanics. Once he is making few errors in those areas you can expand revisions to include rephrasing, adding additional information, etc. Do not accept final drafts without every error addressed. If he can type well, that will help ensure final drafts are error-free without requiring numerous laborious revisions.  

Edited May 12, 2022 by Shoes+Ships+SealingWax

[8filltheheart]

FWIW, I would NOT add the stress of online outsourced provider for a 5th grader.  Work on parenting skills, habit training (for both parents and children), and relationships.  Those don't go away.  Those are skills that will be with you (even as the adult of adult children you have to work on parenting skills and relationships.  These are the foundation for everything going forward.)

ETA: I think you need to show him standard writing procedures: brainstorm, research, organize, outline, rough draft, revise and improve, final edits, final draft.  Even professional writers revise, improve, and edit.  

Step 4: Revise | The Writing Process (mit.edu) (even college kids have to revise and improve and they know how to write far more effectively than a 4th grader.  😉 )

Edited May 12, 2022 by 8filltheheart

[Ting Tang]

1 hour ago, Green Bean said:

Actually, you can shut the auto correct feature off 

ahh, that might be an option! Thank you. 🙂

 

[Ting Tang]

44 minutes ago, Shoes+Ships+SealingWax said:

I would definitely nip this sort of snark in the bud. You have a responsibility, as his parent and his teacher, to assist him in developing key skills. One aspect of that is acting as his editor - which is a critical relationship writers of all levels rely upon. You will not tolerate him degrading your role or taking offense to you doing your job. Period. 

For editing, I would set the expectation going forward that writing seldom has only one draft. Each composition will be turned in, edited, & then revised. At first focus only spelling, grammar, & mechanics. Once he is making few errors in those areas you can expand revisions to include rephrasing, adding additional information, etc. Do not accept final drafts without every error addressed. If he can type well, that will help ensure final drafts are error-free without requiring numerous laborious revisions.  

Some of it is end of the year blahs and the fact he is only on Lesson 23 of spelling, but I do know we didn't exactly do things right this year.  We'll be mostly done by next week, and then I will have more time to reflect and address next year.  Thank you for this advice on writing.  At first I didn't want to hinder his desire with all the editing, but I didn't see much improvement that he is very much capable of making.  I also have learning to type properly on my list.

Edited May 12, 2022 by Ting Tang

[Ting Tang]

42 minutes ago, 8filltheheart said:

FWIW, I would NOT add the stress of online outsourced provider for a 5th grader.  Work on parenting skills, habit training (for both parents and children), and relationships.  Those don't go away.  Those are skills that will be with you (even as the adult of adult children you have to work on parenting skills and relationships.  These are the foundation for everything going forward.)

ETA: I think you need to show him standard writing procedures: brainstorm, research, organize, outline, rough draft, revise and improve, final edits, final draft.  Even professional writers revise, improve, and edit.  

Step 4: Revise | The Writing Process (mit.edu) (even college kids have to revise and improve and they know how to write far more effectively than a 4th grader.  😉 )

I think I am going to buy the Laying down the Rails book and its companion.  If I buy anything yet, that's what I need to do to improve our parenting and habit training.  I really do not want to have him in online classes.  From my understanding, though, the classes are not technically classes.  The information gets sent, and the student submits the assignments.  But maybe if we buy those first two books I mentioned, there will be less of a need for anything outsourced!  I'll take a look at this link.  🙂

[Shoes+Ships+SealingWax]

1 hour ago, Ting Tang said:

At first I didn't want to hinder his desire with all the editing, but I didn't see much improvement that he is very much capable of making.

Are you attempting to edit as he goes, or letting him complete an assignment & then returning all edits at once?

Correcting him as he works may be frustrating and distracting, whereas making revisions their own assignment may go over better - especially if he can see over time that he is making fewer & fewer errors. Also, be sure to discuss with him before you move to a new level of revising so he doesn’t freak out when suddenly there are more mistakes again. It’s a good thing, he’s “leveled up” (& you know he can handle it)!

[Clemsondana]

9 hours ago, Ting Tang said:

I like that idea of three formal days and two flex days. I would like to do something like that.  This has me torn on using MCT for language arts.  I think it would be good for him, but I also wonder if a typical structure would help us work on his habits.  Oh my goodness. My son always talks about "surviving."  Yep, he sometimes will verbalize he doesn't see the point of school. But in another breath he'll say which college he wants to attend.  Lately it has been BYU because the Outdoor Boys dad on YouTube went there.  Iol  I would also think the habits your son has with his other mom would affect your teaching.  Or he is just the same way with both of you, lol.

I don't have comments on the other parts, other than to say that homeschooling some students can be very challenging, and it can take a long time to figure out how to best help them.  But, as to the quoted part, it's not difficult to have structure while using MCT.  Once you get past the beginning of the grammar section, you can run different parts of it concurrently or serially.  We usually chose to do grammar-only for the first few weeks or months.  Then sometimes we'd have a routine where we did vocab M and T and then poetry on Friday, or wahtever works.  Doing any one component usually took no more than 30 minutes, so if you do ther language arts it might be just part of your work in that area.  

[AnneGG]

11 hours ago, Ting Tang said:

I like that idea of three formal days and two flex days. I would like to do something like that.  This has me torn on using MCT for language arts.  I think it would be good for him, but I also wonder if a typical structure would help us work on his habits.  Oh my goodness. My son always talks about "surviving."  Yep, he sometimes will verbalize he doesn't see the point of school. But in another breath he'll say which college he wants to attend.  Lately it has been BYU because the Outdoor Boys dad on YouTube went there.  Iol  I would also think the habits your son has with his other mom would affect your teaching.  Or he is just the same way with both of you, lol.

The oldest two are my bonus boys and I think their behavior/effort tends to be a bit better for me because I am not their real mom.  They are here all day for home school but then they go home. It’s just a different vibe. 
 

You’ve received so many wonderful ideas and lots of wisdom. You will figure it out, you know your children best! Follow your intuition. 

[PeterPan]

13 hours ago, Ting Tang said:

We took him for evaluations through the special education office, but he did not qualify for anything.

When was that? Evals are typically redone every 3 years because some things become more obvious or discrepant with time. Behaviors that are common in 5 yo might not fade away, EF expectations increase, etc. If the evals were done through the ps, you have to remember that those evals were only to determine whether they were affecting his "ability to access his education". This is jargonese that means that bright kids fall through the cracks as their weaknesses and strengths balance out to look adequate. They don't thrive, but they survive so they get shoved through. 

What you're looking for is a neuropsych eval. Don't settle for a regular (clinical) psych eval because it will be too short. A neurospych will typically do 6-8 hours of testing instead of 2-ish and will have many more detailed tests that can tease apart subtle issues and the parts of the brain affected. This is what you are wanting the referral for, a neuropsychological eval. Given the medical issues, it's the appropriate level of testing to be pushing for. 

10 hours ago, Ting Tang said:

The worst thing is if I edit something, he will try to manipulate me by saying, "So you think I'm stupid?" 

You said he's capable of the editing, so you tell him you noticed 3 errors and send him to go find them. 

10 hours ago, Ting Tang said:

My one concern is that the student is required to submit typed work.  And of course, the computer would automatically fix his errors.  I still want him to be able to be attentive to detail through handwriting.  Or maybe I am wrong in that thinking?  He hasn't learned to type, either. hmmm

If he does his composition using dictation (speaking and having the computer type), it will only add the punctuation he tells it to add. He'll also need to correct homonyms, etc. 

6 hours ago, Ting Tang said:

I really do not want to have him in online classes. 

My ds does quite a bit online (teletherapy and now some classes) and I find that online services are AMAZING for providing structure and clear expectations. Kids will sometimes do things for others that they don't do for us. That person shows up cheerful and ready, with no worries about bills or dishes, and the dc gets peer review and a bit of competition to motivate them. Writing especially is better with an audience, which the peers give. 

If he can't be in a live online class yet due to anxiety, then it seems like you need those evals to get sorted out what is going on and what the best approach would be. (cognitive strategies, meds, whatever)

Edited May 13, 2022 by PeterPan

[Ting Tang]

15 hours ago, Shoes+Ships+SealingWax said:

Are you attempting to edit as he goes, or letting him complete an assignment & then returning all edits at once?

Correcting him as he works may be frustrating and distracting, whereas making revisions their own assignment may go over better - especially if he can see over time that he is making fewer & fewer errors. Also, be sure to discuss with him before you move to a new level of revising so he doesn’t freak out when suddenly there are more mistakes again. It’s a good thing, he’s “leveled up” (& you know he can handle it)!

I would edit after he completed a draft and try to explain my editing to him. Prior to that, we were working on one paragraph at a time together.  I really do believe it has more to do with other things than ability, but perhaps we do need to backtrack.

[Ting Tang]

13 hours ago, Clemsondana said:

I don't have comments on the other parts, other than to say that homeschooling some students can be very challenging, and it can take a long time to figure out how to best help them.  But, as to the quoted part, it's not difficult to have structure while using MCT.  Once you get past the beginning of the grammar section, you can run different parts of it concurrently or serially.  We usually chose to do grammar-only for the first few weeks or months.  Then sometimes we'd have a routine where we did vocab M and T and then poetry on Friday, or wahtever works.  Doing any one component usually took no more than 30 minutes, so if you do ther language arts it might be just part of your work in that area.  

Thank you so much for sharing!  I wondered if something just simple and straight forward would be better for working on habits, precision, etc. than MCT, but I also don't want to miss a potential opportunity with the curriculum. Of course, it could be a total flop, too, with him.  😞  The literature component looks great, but I also know he doesn't like to spend too much time on one book as Memoria Press tends to suggest.

[8filltheheart]

5 minutes ago, Ting Tang said:

I would edit after he completed a draft and try to explain my editing to him. Prior to that, we were working on one paragraph at a time together.  I really do believe it has more to do with other things than ability, but perhaps we do need to backtrack.

I edit WITH my kids.  We sit and read through the whole thing and then read sentence by sentence.  I point out strengths and ask guided questions.  I try to get them to SEE on their own vs. my telling them.  I want them to make the suggestions for improving quality.  For verb tense or agreement errors, I ask questions about number/tense to see if they can identify the issues and correct without my telling them.

[Brittany1116]

I also edit with my kid. I read the whole thing out loud pausing very briefly anywhere there is an odd word or sentence. He usually hears it then and offers a fix or explanation. Then we mark it line by line and if he needs to find a more descriptive word or change a tense, he does it then. 

[Clarita]

21 hours ago, Ting Tang said:

I think I am going to buy the Laying down the Rails book and its companion.  If I buy anything yet, that's what I need to do to improve our parenting and habit training.

I was thinking about you last night while reading Rethinking School. Before you get Laying Down the Rails (that book was really intense for me and made habits a whole other school subject to tackle), see if you can borrow Rethinking School and read Part 5. It seems what you might be looking for is addressed in chapter nineteen of that book. Then maybe the training can be a little more natural/organic. 

You can still do Laying Down the Rails if you want anyways, but as a warning it focuses on each individual habit and then many of those habits lead to a great student. To do it according to the book you are addressing them all separately, so you may not get the needed/desired results in a timely manner. 

[Ting Tang]

4 hours ago, 8filltheheart said:

I edit WITH my kids.  We sit and read through the whole thing and then read sentence by sentence.  I point out strengths and ask guided questions.  I try to get them to SEE on their own vs. my telling them.  I want them to make the suggestions for improving quality.  For verb tense or agreement errors, I ask questions about number/tense to see if they can identify the issues and correct without my telling them.

 

3 hours ago, Brittany1116 said:

I also edit with my kid. I read the whole thing out loud pausing very briefly anywhere there is an odd word or sentence. He usually hears it then and offers a fix or explanation. Then we mark it line by line and if he needs to find a more descriptive word or change a tense, he does it then. 

 

Thank you both.  Ok, maybe we will try this.  I try to explain why I made the edits, but this sounds like it might be a better and less confrontational approach.

10 minutes ago, Clarita said:

I was thinking about you last night while reading Rethinking School. Before you get Laying Down the Rails (that book was really intense for me and made habits a whole other school subject to tackle), see if you can borrow Rethinking School and read Part 5. It seems what you might be looking for is addressed in chapter nineteen of that book. Then maybe the training can be a little more natural/organic. 

You can still do Laying Down the Rails if you want anyways, but as a warning it focuses on each individual habit and then many of those habits lead to a great student. To do it according to the book you are addressing them all separately, so you may not get the needed/desired results in a timely manner. 

Thank you so much.  I am going to take a look.  I just bought those other resources--they were quick to fill my order---they do seem intense, and I cringed at the price (I bought the companion books, too) but I'm all for anything that might help!

[Quarter Note]

Seconding @Clarita's suggestion to read Rethinking School.  It really should be read right along with TWTM.

@Ting Tang, here is a specific section of what SWB wrote to give you some encouragement (this from Chapter 20):

-----------

“We want our children to leap into their assignments with evergy and complete them without nagging. We want them to have a thirst for knowledge. We want them to love learning.

“If only that were reality….

“True appreciation of the value of education only comes with maturity. And often, when we're dealing with children, we're waiting for the maturity to happen. For many children, something has to click in the brain before they become self-motivated, engaged learners...”

-----------

I'm right with you, TingTang.  My husband and I were ultra-motivated overachievers, and though our kids are really doing fine academically, their attitudes are driving us crazy.

Something that is important to remember is that it is simply not in the nature of every child to be educated by Mom, especially starting in adolescence. This is something I wish would be talked about more openly and without condemnation. Mom may be doing all the homeschooling right – but the kid just needs another teacher.  

Good luck to you, TingTang. Being a homeschool mom is hard, and I'm sure that you are giving it your all. 

Edited May 17, 2022 by Quarter Note
typo

[Ting Tang]

48 minutes ago, Quarter Note said:

Seconding @Clarita's suggestion to read Rethinking School.  It really should be read right along with TWTM.

@Ting Tang, here is a specific section of what SWB wrote to give you some encouragement (this from Chapter 20):

-----------

“We want our children to leap into their assignments with evergy and complete them without nagging. We want them to have a thirst for knowledge. We want them to love learning.

“If only that were reality….

“True appreciation of the value of education only comes with maturity. And often, when we're dealing with children, we're waiting for the maturity to happen. For many children, something has to click in the brain before they become self-motivated, engaged learners...”

-----------

I'm right with you, TingTang.  My husband and I were ultra-motivated overachievers, and though our kids are really doing fine academically, their attitudes are driving us crazy.

Something that is important to remember is that it is simply not in the nature of every child to be educated by Mom, especially starting in adolescence. This is something I wish would be talked about more openly and without condemnation. Mom may be doing all the homeschooling right – but the kid just needs another teacher.  

Good luck to you, TingTang. Being a homeschool mom is hard, and I'm sure that you are giving it your all. 

Thank you so very much!  It helps to know I am not alone.  Life would be so much easier if our children were like us, wouldn't it?!  I think my oldest has had the most difficult time with homeschooling because he was in public school the longest and had a good group of friends, though he was starting to get into some trouble.  I still feel like despite our struggles, he is getting a better education here than he would be at our local failing school---knowing how bright he is, of course, I have built up my expectations.  I think we are definitely going to try modifications at home first.  I just get so easily frustrated these days, which is my own problem to work on.  

[Dianthus]

5 hours ago, Ting Tang said:

Thank you so very much!  It helps to know I am not alone.  Life would be so much easier if our children were like us, wouldn't it?!  I think my oldest has had the most difficult time with homeschooling because he was in public school the longest and had a good group of friends, though he was starting to get into some trouble.  I still feel like despite our struggles, he is getting a better education here than he would be at our local failing school---knowing how bright he is, of course, I have built up my expectations.  I think we are definitely going to try modifications at home first.  I just get so easily frustrated these days, which is my own problem to work on.  

No, the one that's like me is the hardest.