How do you reconcile .

[gardenmom5]

Avoiding the narcissist (who is also certifiably nuts) and the wanting to be a good person/treat others well?

I was talking to the minister at my aunt's memorial, and she'd brought up how it had to be scaled back due to covid. (and she hadn't been able to do care home visits while my aunt was alive because of covid, so she hadn't even met her.)   At this point - my brother joined the conversation commenting about how "omicron" will cure it all, and bill gates is disappointed he can't jab people. He kept going - but I lost the ability to register the crazy.  and he's laughing because he thinks he's funny. (or clever.  witty?)  The minister's eyes opened wide and I beat a hasty retreat.

sissie and his daughter and I made arrangements last night of where to go for lunch afterwards (so it would be arranged away from him.) and when he invited me to lunch I had to say I already had plans.  (she lived in India for 40 years - so we had Indian food.)

I realized - yeah, I'd like to be able to have him included and share memories, - but if he was there, he would have spent the entire time spouting off about whatever while the rest of us had steadily increasing blood pressure . . .  I am pretty sure he has zero self-awareness.  It would not have been enjoyable to spend a lunch redirecting him.  (eta: yes - I do redirect, but when you've done it five times in five minutes - it gets old really fast.)

sister, niece (his daughter - barely tolerates him.) and I had a lovely time.

So - how do you reconcile the feelings of avoiding a whackjob (who will make you nuts) and trying to be a good person?

Edited February 27, 2022 by gardenmom5

[regentrude]

2 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

how do you reconcile the feelings of avoiding a whackjob (who will make you nuts) and trying to be a good person?

You can only be a good person if you safeguard your sanity. Putting your oxygen mask on first. Only if you have taken care of your own needs will you be able to give to others. 

[gardenmom5]

Just now, regentrude said:

You can only be a good person if you safeguard your sanity. Putting your oxygen mask on first. Only if you have taken care of your own needs will you be able to give to others. 

I like that - it's a good way to look at it.

[Slache]

It sounds like you're asking how you can be a good person when you're doing something that is bad, but you're not doing anything that is bad. This person is dangerous to your emotional well-being so you limit your time with him. That's the right thing to do.

[katilac]

Sometimes it helps to proactively decide on things you can do, on your own terms, for the relationship. 

Maybe I can't deal with having him ruin our planned lunch, but perhaps I can sometime plan a lunch with him, knowing full well it's going to be difficult. 

 When I can't see him, maybe I can remember to periodically send a card, and maybe a gift for his birthday (or just randomly if you don't want to start a tradition). 

 You're the only one who knows how it affects you to spend time with him. If having lunch with him just ruins your day, maybe it's something you can do every now and then. If it ruins your week, it's going to have to be a rare occasion. 

The nice thing about cards is that very few people are going to bother to reply 😄

 

[Rosie_0801]

Being nice to people who either want to hurt you or won't take the trouble not to doesn't make you a good person so much as a sucker with a sign on your back saying "Kick Me." You're not going to feel guilty for not being a sucker, because you know you don't owe anyone that.

[Hannah]

What Rosie said.

[Indigo Blue]

I’m trying to imagine being in your shoes in that situation, and I would also feel weird enjoying lunch when I felt I had purposely excluded someone. But don’t. The person doesn’t know and isn’t harmed. You know full well you are just protecting yourself, which you have every reason to do. The person is none the wiser, and your emotional well being doesn’t take a hit. Those are the hard facts, so try to stay along those lines of thinking, even though we both know it’s hard. I don’t like feeling this way, either. It’s like you are sorta cornered into being someone else who otherwise wouldn’t treat a person a certain way, and, then, in addition to dealing with what the person does to you emotionally, you also have to deal with feelings of reconciling with your internal moral compass. It’s utterly difficult. 

[HomeAgain]

I look back to Mark 12:31.  Love your neighbor as you love yourself.

Not love your neighbor at the expense of yourself.  Not love your neighbor MORE than yourself.  But giving yourself equal dignity, respect, and compassion.  Would you have felt comfortable making everyone else at the table feel like they were in an uncomfortable situation?  Would you have felt good putting yourself in that position so that your brother could feel welcome to spout nonsense to a captive audience?  There are times when we should be subjected to discomfort (irrational prejudice, a moral dilemma) but this doesn't appear to be one of those times. 

Love yourself.  You deserve the same level of protection you would give others.

[gardenmom5]

6 hours ago, katilac said:

Sometimes it helps to proactively decide on things you can do, on your own terms, for the relationship. 

Maybe I can't deal with having him ruin our planned lunch, but perhaps I can sometime plan a lunch with him, knowing full well it's going to be difficult. 

 When I can't see him, maybe I can remember to periodically send a card, and maybe a gift for his birthday (or just randomly if you don't want to start a tradition). 

 You're the only one who knows how it affects you to spend time with him. If having lunch with him just ruins your day, maybe it's something you can do every now and then. If it ruins your week, it's going to have to be a rare occasion. 

The nice thing about cards is that very few people are going to bother to reply 😄

 

I made that mistake once already.  He took it as an invitation to start emailing me links to his conspiracy theories  (did you know men in black helicopters are chasing CERN scientists after they opened a portal into another dimension? That's one of the last one's I bothered to read.  I tried to walk him through - it was someone's extremely poor attempt to sci-fi (the it's so bad it's funny) -, he never mentioned it again, just sent me a new whackadoodle story.) and whatever the latest of his belief system websites.

His birthday is next month - believe me, I have to think hard about sending him a card.

24 minutes ago, Indigo Blue said:

I’m trying to imagine being in your shoes in that situation, and I would also feel weird enjoying lunch when I felt I had purposely excluded someone. But don’t. The person doesn’t know and isn’t harmed. You know full well you are just protecting yourself, which you have every reason to do. The person is none the wiser, and your emotional well being doesn’t take a hit. Those are the hard facts, so try to stay along those lines of thinking, even though we both know it’s hard. I don’t like feeling this way, either. It’s like you are sorta cornered into being someone else who otherwise wouldn’t treat a person a certain way, and, then, in addition to dealing with what the person does to you emotionally, you also have to deal with feelings of reconciling with your internal moral compass. It’s utterly difficult. 

Thank you for understanding the conflict.

he came to each of us, separately (I was last) - all of us, rejected him.  I feel bad for him as he does know other family members don't' want to spend time with him (his other daughter has documents for if she ever feels the need to file a restraining order against him), but he seems incapable of realizing it has to do with his inability to treat others with consideration let alone less respect.    

I wonder if part of what bugs me (and I just thought of/realized this) is my grandmother would deliberately exclude me when she was hosting.   After two separate events (incl. one when one of her out of state sisters was visiting and she invited my sister and my mother to dinner. My brother lived out of state.) - I realized it was deliberate.   But hey - I didn't sell my soul for a mess of potage to get her approval. (no hyperbole - that's honestly what I felt she was demanding.)

dh still brings up one of her last christmases when we were hosting (and we invited her - she was getting pretty frail) and how utterly grateful she was just to have somewhere to go . . . .

 

[catz]

You can’t treat others well if you can’t treat yourself well.   Sometimes that means firm boundaries.   No one should need to sacrifice their own well being or the well being of others to be inclusive.   

[Faith-manor]

Regentrude nailed it. You simply can't be a kind and thoughtful person to everyone else - your brother is not the only person deserving of consideration in your life - if he is allowed to shred your emotionally and mentally. It is a matter of seeing it in the wider perspective of just how many people in your life need you. His issues cannot be allowed to subsume all the other considerations.

I get it. My brother and two of his five children go further and further down the rabbit hole of conspiracy theories every year. As a result, they have become profoundly mentally and emotionally draining. I live two blocks from my brother, and have contact down to a text on Christmas, Easter, and birthdays, and two or three low key contacts briefly in the yard in passing. I haven't seen nephew or niece since before the pandemic. It will remain this way because I have a mom dependent on me, a marriage and four adult kids to consider, and two grandsons. I am not willing to sacrifice my own emotional stability for them by wearing myself out with him. It is a bit of a math equation. Three of them, eight of the other. Eight is greater than three.

Someday I hope he sees the light and the worst aspects of his issues abated a bit. If so, I might arrange to meet him at a restaurant for lunch. But until then.....

[gardenmom5]

2 hours ago, Faith-manor said:

Regentrude nailed it. You simply can't be a kind and thoughtful person to everyone else - your brother is not the only person deserving of consideration in your life - if he is allowed to shred your emotionally and mentally. It is a matter of seeing it in the wider perspective of just how many people in your life need you. His issues cannot be allowed to subsume all the other considerations.

I get it. My brother and two of his five children go further and further down the rabbit hole of conspiracy theories every year. As a result, they have become profoundly mentally and emotionally draining. I live two blocks from my brother, and have contact down to a text on Christmas, Easter, and birthdays, and two or three low key contacts briefly in the yard in passing. I haven't seen nephew or niece since before the pandemic. It will remain this way because I have a mom dependent on me, a marriage and four adult kids to consider, and two grandsons. I am not willing to sacrifice my own emotional stability for them by wearing myself out with him. It is a bit of a math equation. Three of them, eight of the other. Eight is greater than three.

Someday I hope he sees the light and the worst aspects of his issues abated a bit. If so, I might arrange to meet him at a restaurant for lunch. But until then.....

I found it interesting how much things changed after my mom died.  I no longer felt a need to try to protect her from him (she knew he was toxic - but refused to have a hardline with him.).  And I have told him to his face I think he's a *&%)*(.  (I was extremely exasperated.)

 

He told me he was done trying to be friends and wasn't going to try anymore.  I was quietly glad.  That lasted three weeks before he was sending me stuff again.

Edited February 27, 2022 by gardenmom5

[Faith-manor]

22 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

I found it interesting how much things changed after my mom died.  I no longer felt a need to try to protect her from him (she knew he was toxic - but refused to have a hardline with him.).  And I have told him to his face I think he's a *&%)*(.  (I was extremely exasperated.)

 

He told me he was done trying to be friends and wasn't going to try anymore.  I was quietly glad.  That lasted three weeks before he was sending me stuff again.

Three weeks! That is sad. Would have been nice if he could have just stopped permanently.

My brother is too self absorbed now to even make the effort to continue to try with me which is very nice. 

[frogger]

I haven't responded because things just hit to close to home. I will say now, I think the loving thing to do for your other guests is to not  invite him. It isn't unloving to think of ALL your guests so please don't feel guilty.

I just delete all the conspiracy stuff that I am forwarded in my email. There was one person I tried responding too and explaining what things were wrong or evidence it was fake and then they quit forwarding. So that solved that. The last person doesn't seem worth the time. I know he won't change their mind. He can't really think things through. I can't help but think he is a traitor at this point but I also know he is just brainwashed. Many others I just don't really talk to anymore or only see at holidays.

So don't feel guilty. You can also just send a card for his birthday so you don't have to deal with responses etc. 

[Rosie_0801]

8 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

He told me he was done trying to be friends and wasn't going to try anymore.  I was quietly glad.  That lasted three weeks before he was sending me stuff again.

Is three weeks a magic memory number or something? A person in my life has a three week memory like this.

[gardenmom5]

3 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

Is three weeks a magic memory number or something? A person in my life has a three week memory like this.

I have heard if you want to start a new "habit" you need to practice it every day for three weeks.

[gardenmom5]

12 minutes ago, frogger said:

I haven't responded because things just hit to close to home. I will say now, I think the loving thing to do for your other guests is to not  invite him. It isn't unloving to think of ALL your guests so please don't feel guilty.

I just delete all the conspiracy stuff that I am forwarded in my email. There was one person I tried responding too and explaining what things were wrong or evidence it was fake and then they quit forwarding. So that solved that. The last person doesn't seem worth the time. I know he won't change their mind. He can't really think things through. I can't help but think he is a traitor at this point but I also know he is just brainwashed. Many others I just don't really talk to anymore or only see at holidays.

So don't feel guilty. You can also just send a card for his birthday so you don't have to deal with responses etc. 

I don't invite him to things I'm hosting.  I tried to do a "family" december dinner (no WAY would I ruin Christmas by inviting him for Christmas)  His wife didn't come - so he brought his "brother by another mother" (the friend seemed depressed.  I think they bonded over trashing ex-wives.)  Hey, I tried.  My sister came for Christmas too - and we had a lovely time.

  dh and I have joked about locking him and one of his (SUPER obnoxious, rams his extremist opinions down other people's throats) nephew in a room together.  Two sides of the same coin. (political opposites) We could sell tickets and see who survives.

I don't read the conspiracy or "spiritual" garbage.  (He'll tell me I'm not "spiritual" because I won't share my "spiritual experiences" with him.  yeah - there's a reason for that.)

When I would point out the fallacies, he'd ignore and move on to something else.  I consider that pointless.  He doesn't say anything when he sends them and I've told him before if he wants people to read something he should say WHY.  Last fall - I told him to stop just sending me stuff.  that's what prompted his tantrum and "threat" to stop talking to me.   (sigh.  so close.)

[katilac]

On 2/27/2022 at 7:44 AM, gardenmom5 said:

I made that mistake once already.  He took it as an invitation to start emailing me links to his conspiracy theories  (did you know men in black helicopters are chasing CERN scientists after they opened a portal into another dimension? That's one of the last one's I bothered to read.  I tried to walk him through - it was someone's extremely poor attempt to sci-fi (the it's so bad it's funny) -, he never mentioned it again, just sent me a new whackadoodle story.) and whatever the latest of his belief system websites.

 

On 2/27/2022 at 8:46 PM, gardenmom5 said:

 When I would point out the fallacies, he'd ignore and move on to something else.  I consider that pointless.  He doesn't say anything when he sends them and I've told him before if he wants people to read something he should say WHY.  Last fall - I told him to stop just sending me stuff.  that's what prompted his tantrum and "threat" to stop talking to me.   (sigh.  so close.)

Crazy emails don't bother me much. I just delete without reading, the same as I do for 'inspiring' emails, lol. 

IF you want to have light contact and cards from you seem to set off emails from him, you could always just filter his emails so you never see them and/or they're automatically deleted.