SAT will be delivered digitally internationally beginning in 2023 and in the U.S. in 2024. The PSAT/NMSQT and PSAT 8/9 will be delivered digitally in 2023 with the PSAT 10 following in 2024.

[Roadrunner]

4 minutes ago, UmmIbrahim said:

Wow, I'm living in the wrong part of the country for DE. If my kid takes one, 3 credit class I have to pay about $750! So taking more than a 3 credit class (pretty much anything STEM ends up being at least 4 credits) costs us a lot for just one semester. *sigh*

I read about people who get free DE in their area as homeschoolers and just drool.

We get free DE in CA. The quality is mostly trash around here and the drive is very long for us personally. I wouldn’t drool. ☺️ 

For our CC locally you most definitely get what you pay for. 🤣

Edited January 26, 2022 by Roadrunner

[Sneezyone]

24 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

We get free DE in CA. The quality is mostly trash around here and the drive is very long for us personally. I wouldn’t drool. ☺️ 

For our CC locally you most definitely get what you pay for. 🤣

When I lived in LA for college, my bestie attended Santa Monica City College for a full semester to bring up her GPA before reenrolling at USC. It was VERY affordable. She took the bus.

Here, the district pays 1/2 for any enrolled student (even solely online classes) so the costs are very reasonable, maybe $100-150/class.

Hold up, are you seriously complaining about <$1000 in transportation/tuition/books for a full semester (12 transferable credits)? You don’t know Jack about the other students in those classes.

Edited January 26, 2022 by Sneezyone

[Roadrunner]

23 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

When I lived in LA for college, my bestie attended Santa Monica City College for a full semester to bring up her GPA before reenrolling at USC. It was VERY affordable. She took the bus.

Here, the district pays 1/2 for any enrolled student (even solely online classes) so the costs are very reasonable, maybe $100-150/class.

Hold up, are you seriously complaining about <$1000 in transportation/tuition/books for a full semester (12 transferable credits)? You don’t know Jack about the other students in those classes.

I am not complaining. I am saying it’s not worth it. 
 

I hear there are places, like Santa Barbara, where they are worth it. For us a $90 exam is cheaper and AP classes are often much higher quality. 

Edited January 26, 2022 by Roadrunner

[Sneezyone]

4 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

I am not complaining. I am saying it’s not worth it. 

Wow.

[Lucy the Valiant]

6 hours ago, cintinative said:

You still have to take it at a test center though. Are we saying that we can get more flexible times for testing now because it is electronic?  like with CLEP? It can't be taken at home.

 

6 hours ago, chiguirre said:

If you have to take it at a test center, it will have to be by appointment and more like the CLEP just to be logistically feasible. 

 

ETA: Whoops, no, apparently they have a bunch of kids in a room with their own or borrowed devices. That's very strange. I wonder if it will switch to something more like the CLEP so that you don't have to have a gazillion device loaners that only get used on test days every two months. But, nobody ever said the College Board was sensible.

^Our kids all take CLEPs at home now; wondering if SAT will switch to a similar format sooner than later? 

4 hours ago, Sneezyone said:

Testing isn’t showing their potential or skill or drive. It’s masking it. They’re learning the skill of test prep. That’s all.

Well, yes and no; some of my students actually do review / learn skills in advance of taking the SAT. 

And for my home schooled children (mine) and students (others'), that SAT score is very much a "ticket" in to places they would not otherwise be granted access. It isn't right, and it's not a true reflection of their abilities, but - it IS how the game is played, at least in my area. 

[Sneezyone]

5 minutes ago, Lucy the Valiant said:

 

^Our kids all take CLEPs at home now; wondering if SAT will switch to a similar format sooner than later? 

Well, yes and no; some of my students actually do review / learn skills in advance of taking the SAT. 

And for my home schooled children (mine) and students (others'), that SAT score is very much a "ticket" in to places they would not otherwise be granted access. It isn't right, and it's not a true reflection of their abilities, but - it IS how the game is played, at least in my area. 

DH CLEPed many classes to earn his BA before his MS. Your last para is where I’m at tho. I don’t want my kids at *any* institution that defines their worth by a test score.

Edited January 26, 2022 by Sneezyone

[Lucy the Valiant]

17 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Your last para is where I’m at tho. I don’t want my kids at *any* institution that defines their worth by a test score.

That's fair. 

The situation reads differently to me and to my kids because neither we nor the receiving institutions see the kid as ONLY a test score; they see the kids as interesting individuals AND able to compete in *their test format. (I'm not wording this well.) 

(Edit: I mostly view any CB changes at this stage of the game as a desperate bid to retain relevancy.)

Edited January 26, 2022 by Lucy the Valiant

[Sneezyone]

1 hour ago, Lucy the Valiant said:

That's fair. 

The situation reads differently to me and to my kids because neither we nor the receiving institutions see the kid as ONLY a test score; they see the kids as interesting individuals AND able to compete in *their test format. (I'm not wording this well.) 

(Edit: I mostly view any CB changes at this stage of the game as a desperate bid to retain relevancy.)

Agreed. I just don’t see *their* tests as relevant long term. They’re on their way out and SCOTUS’ upcoming rulings will render them even more irrelevant. Colleges that want to maintain credibility and diversity will expend the funds necessary to evaluate all applicants more thoroughly (see the recently withdrawn Oxford fellowship). For those kids who have big time/money to spend on test prep, nothing changes. For those who don’t, everything will. CB is desperately trying to stay relevant.

 

 

Edited January 26, 2022 by Sneezyone

[Alice Lamb]

As someone who is more likely to make "careless" mistakes than reasoning errors, adaptive tests would scare me silly. I scored1530 on the SAT (math+verbal) with NO test prep, but often find questions that are classed as "easy" harder for me than the "hard" ones.

 

[Sneezyone]

14 minutes ago, Alice Lamb said:

As someone who is more likely to make "careless" mistakes than reasoning errors, adaptive tests would scare me silly. I scored1530 on the SAT (math+verbal) with NO test prep, but often find questions that are classed as "easy" harder for me than the "hard" ones.

 

It’s not either/or. The first run through provides easy AND hard questions. It adapts based on a pattern of responses to both. The NWEA test stops when you have enough wrong answers but the time range is known to vary by as much as an hour based on the difficulty of the questions. My hope is the new SAT test will accommodate those tougher questions by making the time limits more flexible. Every kid should have more time. Speed doesn’t equal intelligence or capacity. It’s truly an arbitrary and capricious metric. 

Edited January 26, 2022 by Sneezyone

[Roadrunner]

@Sneezyoneas usual I disagree with almost everything you say. 🤣

But I see no point in this discussion. 

[madteaparty]

6 hours ago, Sneezyone said:

Wow.

On the other side of the country, our CC classes here are the same. My friend who is a prof at a CC refuses to let his children take some of the classes (like in math for example) even though it would be early free.

What a “college” class means has been much diluted. Which is why a GPA tells you little. If only we had some sort of National, standard exams… 😉 

[madteaparty]

6 hours ago, Alice Lamb said:

As someone who is more likely to make "careless" mistakes than reasoning errors, adaptive tests would scare me silly. I scored1530 on the SAT (math+verbal) with NO test prep, but often find questions that are classed as "easy" harder for me than the "hard" ones.

 

My child is like this. Part of his coping is to circle and return to some of these questions (almost letting them stew in back of your head and then come back to it.) 

[Sneezyone]

4 hours ago, madteaparty said:

On the other side of the country, our CC classes here are the same. My friend who is a prof at a CC refuses to let his children take some of the classes (like in math for example) even though it would be early free.

What a “college” class means has been much diluted. Which is why a GPA tells you little. If only we had some sort of National, standard exams… 😉 

GPA tells you a lot about effort and persistence. We don’t have a national curriculum so there is never going to be a fair and effective national test. Fortunately for those who want/need that sort of metric, the ACT and SAT will continue to be an available option.

[UmmIbrahim]

6 hours ago, madteaparty said:

On the other side of the country, our CC classes here are the same. My friend who is a prof at a CC refuses to let his children take some of the classes (like in math for example) even though it would be early free.

What a “college” class means has been much diluted. Which is why a GPA tells you little. If only we had some sort of National, standard exams… 😉 

I guess I shouldn't fuss about paying relatively high tuition since I'm happy with what I get. I will say that our CC system has been absolutely amazing for my two who have taken classes there so far. There are, of course, some profs who are ridiculous and easy, and if we'd only taken classes based on schedule convenience or random chance, I probably wouldn't say as many good things about DE!

We've had to be very intentional in talking with other HS parents to hear about the "must take" profs, and those aren't always the ones with good ratings on RMP. One of our favorite math profs ends up failing more than half of the class because he sticks with his methods and standards, regardless of how the students manage. His ratings are definitely not the best! I wonder if some of the CCs that people call trash or not worth it despite being free don't have some hidden gems of professors that would make a difference here and there?

Even when the materials are somewhat standardized across the sections at the CC, we've still found a pretty wide variety in how the professors use those materials. If you don't love Stewart Calculus, yeah, you are probably not going to be keen on DE Calc at our CC, but not all of the profs use Webassign and many just do their teaching of the subject and use the book as a backup with explanations. 

I am now wondering about the wide variety of CC systems around the country!

 

[Roadrunner]

3 hours ago, UmmIbrahim said:

I guess I shouldn't fuss about paying relatively high tuition since I'm happy with what I get. I will say that our CC system has been absolutely amazing for my two who have taken classes there so far. There are, of course, some profs who are ridiculous and easy, and if we'd only taken classes based on schedule convenience or random chance, I probably wouldn't say as many good things about DE!

We've had to be very intentional in talking with other HS parents to hear about the "must take" profs, and those aren't always the ones with good ratings on RMP. One of our favorite math profs ends up failing more than half of the class because he sticks with his methods and standards, regardless of how the students manage. His ratings are definitely not the best! I wonder if some of the CCs that people call trash or not worth it despite being free don't have some hidden gems of professors that would make a difference here and there?

Even when the materials are somewhat standardized across the sections at the CC, we've still found a pretty wide variety in how the professors use those materials. If you don't love Stewart Calculus, yeah, you are probably not going to be keen on DE Calc at our CC, but not all of the profs use Webassign and many just do their teaching of the subject and use the book as a backup with explanations. 

I am now wondering about the wide variety of CC systems around the country!

 

The quality of students here is very low at CCs (we are rural, so I don’t want to generalize this situation across the state), so the level of teaching is matched to the students. I have horror stories to tell, but won’t air them in public. In short thought locally there is great pressure to attract students due to declining enrollment, and a tremendous pressure to give A’s no matter the work completed so as not to prevent them from transferring to a UC. There have been out loud proclamations that exams are racist and grades must be based on alternatives, which have resulted in profs handing out A’s with virtually no assessment. Over the course of the pandemic our CC has rapidly turned into a credit printing machine. There are some outliers, but two out of those three I know have retired. 

[ScoutTN]

On 1/25/2022 at 1:38 PM, Roadrunner said:

I am just glad my kids will be done before this crap kicks in. 

My older will be done; younger not, but he may not be college-bound anyway.

[Arcadia]

College Board Facebook posts

[Roadrunner]

They are using international kids as Guinea pigs. 🤣

[Arcadia]

5 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

They are using international kids as Guinea pigs. 🤣

ACT too.

[Arcadia]

On 1/25/2022 at 11:38 AM, Roadrunner said:

I am just glad my kids will be done before this crap kicks in. 

If this goes through, DS16 can skip the SAT as he is only taking it because CSU has not declare test optional for Fall 2023.

https://apnews.com/article/college-admissions-education-california-higher-education-university-of-california-7bc4e990f8389ec53ecaad2c96c7d821

“California State University, the largest-four year university system in the country, is poised to eliminate SAT and ACT standardized tests from its undergraduate admissions process, following a trend in higher education over concerns that the exams are unfair to minority and low-income students.

The Board of Trustees for the 23-campus CSU system will vote in March on recommendations to end the testing requirements, which were presented at a meeting Wednesday and met with widespread enthusiasm”

Edited January 26, 2022 by Arcadia
Formatting

[madteaparty]

12 hours ago, Sneezyone said:

GPA tells you a lot about effort and persistence. We don’t have a national curriculum so there is never going to be a fair and effective national test. Fortunately for those who want/need that sort of metric, the ACT and SAT will continue to be an available option.

Gpa cannot measure effort in classes that are effortless. Sometimes it tells you just how much nonsense you were willing to click through. So, some sort of persistence, I guess? 

Edited January 27, 2022 by madteaparty

[Sneezyone]

1 hour ago, madteaparty said:

Gpa cannot measure errors in classes that effortless. Sometimes it tells you just how much nonsense you were willing to click through. So, some sort of persistence, I guess? 

Classes what effortless? People make mistakes all the time, typos, etc. We correct them and life goes on. Why should a teen’s minor errors on a single day/test THAT FAMILIES PAY A LOT FOR have more impact than four years of hard work? It shouldn’t. We may never agree on that but I find the insistence on overvaluing a national test when we don’t have a national curriculum indefensible.

Edited January 27, 2022 by Sneezyone

[madteaparty]

42 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Classes what effortless? People make mistakes all the time, typos, etc. We correct them and life goes on. 

I see what you did there. And they say the SAT is high stakes.🤣🤣 I’m sorry I don’t dedicate sufficient resources to editing and proofreading my posts on these boards. Consider me chastised, and further, reformed, lol. We should totally do away with the SAT and keep the meaningless “take it 300 times for extra credit” completely real grades… 

[Sneezyone]

12 minutes ago, madteaparty said:

I see what you did there. And they say the SAT is high stakes.🤣🤣 I’m sorry I don’t dedicate sufficient resources to editing and proofreading my posts on these boards. Consider me chastised, and further, reformed, lol. We should totally do away with the SAT and keep the meaningless “take it 300 times for extra credit” completely real grades… 

My children don’t attend schools that offer unlimited retakes, nor does anyone else I know with children in school. Even if that were a common practice, and it isn’t, it’s absolutely no different than the teaching to mastery expected by many here. The goal is for the student to demonstrate they have learned the material. Further, I never said do away with it. I said the reality is that it’s collapsing all on its own.

[Dmmetler]

Community college (and a few state U) classes (and homeschooling) seem to have done a great job at preparing my kid for a competitive LAC. Some of the other first years, who had a lot of AP and IB classes, can't say the same. The difference between being used to having to manage time, read the syllabus, and do most of the work outside of class and having much more micromanaging was dramatic. So, yeah, some of the classes my kid took were arguably below the level of an AP class, and definitely had a lighter workload, but there were still real benefits to taking them. (And I say that with a kid who chose a school that generally does not give credit, only placement, for classes taken while in high school). I do suspect that AP classes done as a homeschooler are likely to be closer to a college experience since most online classes don't meet daily. 

 

And the ACT/SAT were essential in giving my kid access to said college classes and other enrichment programming, although, due to applying in 2020, not actually for college applications (or for scholarships at the school my kid eventually chose-but they would have given scholarship money if my kid had chosen a state U, since even if they accepted applications without scores, they didn't give money without them). 

 

 

Edited January 27, 2022 by Dmmetler

[rzberrymom]

17 hours ago, Arcadia said:

If this goes through, DS16 can skip the SAT as he is only taking it because CSU has not declare test optional for Fall 2023.

I assume this is a big part of why CSU is so enthusiastic about dropping it. Once the UCs dropped it, my 11th grader changed her plans and decided to forgo months of studying for the SAT and concentrate on her classes instead. If the CSUs keep the requirement in place, she would just skip applying to any of those. I’m guessing there are many many other kids like her. I’ve wondered if places like Merced and Riverside will see an increase if the CSUs keep the tests in place.

[Sneezyone]

58 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

Community college (and a few state U) classes (and homeschooling) seem to have done a great job at preparing my kid for a competitive LAC. Some of the other first years, who had a lot of AP and IB classes, can't say the same. The difference between being used to having to manage time, read the syllabus, and do most of the work outside of class and having much more micromanaging was dramatic. So, yeah, some of the classes my kid took were arguably below the level of an AP class, and definitely had a lighter workload, but there were still real benefits to taking them. (And I say that with a kid who chose a school that generally does not give credit, only placement, for classes taken while in high school). I do suspect that AP classes done as a homeschooler are likely to be closer to a college experience since most online classes don't meet daily. 

 

And the ACT/SAT were essential in giving my kid access to said college classes and other enrichment programming, although, due to applying in 2020, not actually for college applications (or for scholarships at the school my kid eventually chose-but they would have given scholarship money if my kid had chosen a state U, since even if they accepted applications without scores, they didn't give money without them). 

 

 

It's the way the game is currently structured/played. I just don't think that setup is long for this world. It doesn't make sense as a REQUIREMENT given the decentralized systems of education we have. **Maybe** for those applying out of state or as homeschoolers but not in-state. For the most part, colleges know what they are getting from various parts of X, Y, Z state. They have decades of data. I expect it to remain an option for those who need some external metric but I don't think it's necessary for the vast majority of kids. I would like to see students focus their free time on learning the actual material they're offered in class.

Edited January 27, 2022 by Sneezyone

[Arcadia]

On 1/27/2022 at 9:50 AM, rzberrymom said:

I assume this is a big part of why CSU is so enthusiastic about dropping it. Once the UCs dropped it, my 11th grader changed her plans and decided to forgo months of studying for the SAT and concentrate on her classes instead. If the CSUs keep the requirement in place, she would just skip applying to any of those. I’m guessing there are many many other kids like her. I’ve wondered if places like Merced and Riverside will see an increase if the CSUs keep the tests in place.

CSU is dropping it 

https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/california/cal-state-college-system-drops-sat-act-admission-requirement/2845283/

“In a move putting California’s public colleges at the forefront of the trend to drop standardized tests, the Cal State university system will eliminate SAT and ACT tests from its admission requirements.”

[rzberrymom]

4 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

CSU is dropping it 

https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/california/cal-state-college-system-drops-sat-act-admission-requirement/2845283/

“In a move putting California’s public colleges at the forefront of the trend to drop standardized tests, the Cal State university system will eliminate SAT and ACT tests from its admission requirements.”

“As California goes, so goes the nation…”

 

[Mom_to3]

Is anybody concerned that this is dumbing down the test with "shorter reading passages with one question tied to each". Is this going to be written for kids with the attention span of a fly? I also fear that no more calculators will ultimately affect teaching - we'll end up with kids in college who have to type every simple addition or multiplication problem into a calculator (and who may not understand conceptually), which will slow things down a lot. One portion with and one without calculator, as currently done, seems much better.

Adaptive testing could be good in principle (fewer ceiling effects), but how well is this going to be calibrated for kids at the very top of the current test distribution? How much are careless mistakes going to affect this?

I think eliminating test scores is a detriment to not only homeschooled kids, but also many underprivileged groups who can use this to signal their ability (there is actually research on this!). Grade inflation, extra credit, revising work, .... is rampant.,

Edited March 26, 2022 by Mom_to3

[daijobu]

10 hours ago, Mom_to3 said:

Is anybody concerned that this is dumbing down the test with "shorter reading passages with one question tied to each". Is this going to be written for kids with the attention span of a fly? I also fear that no more calculators will ultimately affect teaching - we'll end up with kids in college who have to type every simple addition or multiplication problem into a calculator (and who may not understand conceptually), which will slow things down a lot. One portion with and one without calculator, as currently done, seems much better.

 

Yes, people are concerned.  I'm especially concerned about students who are going through 12 years of schooling and coming out unable to read challenging passages.  I recently stumbled on a podcast Test and the Rest.   The most recent interview is with none other than Erica Meltzer, who authors those popular SAT/ACT reading prep books that are so often recommended on hs2coll.  She had some alarming things to say about the students she's tutored.  When asked to read a passage out loud, her students skip words, or replace words they can't read with another word that shares the same first letter.  They skip over an entire line of text without realizing it.  They get totally blown away when they encounter a foreign name they can't pronounce.  They don't even know that a name they don't recognize is a name.  They read robotically, word word word word I don't understand and freak out!    They don't read like a human who uses appropriate inflection in a way that shows they understand what they are reading.  Students don't seem to get that the words on a page actually correspond to words they speak.  

Like we're pulling students who were raised by wolves and asking them to take the SAT.   What have they been studying for 12 years?

 

[Shoes+Ships+SealingWax]

15 hours ago, Mom_to3 said:

Is anybody concerned that this is dumbing down the test with "shorter reading passages with one question tied to each". Is this going to be written for kids with the attention span of a fly? I also fear that no more calculators will ultimately affect teaching - we'll end up with kids in college who have to type every simple addition or multiplication problem into a calculator (and who may not understand conceptually).

I could see these going either way.

Shorter reading samples with individual questions could mean more abstract analysis of text, rather than regurgitation of minutiae. It could also mean displaying an ability to synthesize information from a wider variety of text types: textbook- or article-style nonfiction, narrative nonfiction, fictional prose, poetry, etc.

Allowing the use of a calculator across the mathematics sections could mean presenting problems where mathematical reasoning - knowing how to formulate the equation necessary to provide the answer you’re looking for - is the focus, rather than “plugging and chugging”. It could also help alleviate the impact of computational errors. 

That isn’t to say I’m not concerned. I am; particularly with the rise of anti-intellectualism in recent years. I’m simply attempting to give the changes the benefit of the doubt until we see how they shake out.