When to submit scores

[Roadrunner]

So when should a student submit scores to a test optional school? 
I am going to assume that only kids at 75% would benefit from submitting and kids who test below 50% don’t submit, which should really skew the percentiles completely. Basically we are now measuring test scores of the top 25-50% of test takers? Is that why U Chicago bottom score is 1510 on SAT? So if one doesn’t submit the assumption is already the kid is scoring badly? 
This is why I hate the test optional movement - either test all or don’t test anybody.

advice on what to do with a school like U Chicago? 

Edited January 6, 2022 by Roadrunner

[regentrude]

Since U Chicago admits only 7% of applicants, I would send the scores if they are likely to impress the admissions folks. I would not bother with scores below the 95th percentile (i.e. ACT 31/SAT 1400).  They will still have their pick of folks who score in the 98th percentile.

Edited January 6, 2022 by regentrude

[Roadrunner]

Just now, regentrude said:

Since U Chicago admits only 7% of applicants, I would send the scores if they are likely to impress the admissions folks. I would not bother with scores below the 95th percentile (i.e. ACT 31/SAT 1400).  They will still have their pick of folks who score in the 98th percentile.

What would be your threshold? Their bottom 25% is 1510. Would you submit an SAT score of 1530?

[regentrude]

Just now, Roadrunner said:

What would be your threshold? Their bottom 25% is 1510. Would you submit an SAT score of 1530?

yes, I would. That's pretty darned high and tells them something.
 

[freesia]

14 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

What would be your threshold? Their bottom 25% is 1510. Would you submit an SAT score of 1530?

Absolutely. I don’t actually think they’ll prefer a 1570 over a 1530 on scores alone. At that level they are looking holistically. 

[freesia]

And I don’t see anyway a 1530 would hurt. 

[gstharr]

A little late to the party, but I just attended my son's 11th grade orientation to college admissions.  There was a panel of three  adm reps from local colleges.  Tpyically, the panel is bigger with out of state adm reps.  All said applications went down the first admission cycle of COVID, but now applications are at all times high--hence more competitive entry.  The reason seems that more students are reaching for the stars with the test optional policies.  The admission rep from the most selective college on the panel (1440 avg SAT), said that her college is truly test optional, but an applicant with test scores at her school's 50th percentile should absolutely submit them (wink, wink), and not to submit lower scores.  Thought I should share.

[Roadrunner]

2 hours ago, gstharr said:

A little late to the party, but I just attended my son's 11th grade orientation to college admissions.  There was a panel of three  adm reps from local colleges.  Tpyically, the panel is bigger with out of state adm reps.  All said applications went down the first admission cycle of COVID, but now applications are at all times high--hence more competitive entry.  The reason seems that more students are reaching for the stars with the test optional policies.  The admission rep from the most selective college on the panel (1440 avg SAT), said that her college is truly test optional, but an applicant with test scores at her school's 50th percentile should absolutely submit them (wink, wink), and not to submit lower scores.  Thought I should share.

This is very interesting. My point is though if only kids above 50th percentile submit, than doesn’t that already make those categories super skewed? And if so maybe we should submit if we happen to have a score that maps anywhere to their scores? So maybe under prior policies their 50th percentile was 1450, but under test optional their 50th percentile is 1550. Does that mean 1530 is not good enough? Is that the way to read this? 

And what is an advantage of submitting if the school is truly test optional? I mean I read trully test optional means you aren’t going to admit somebody because of their high scores, so having those high scores shouldn’t be an advantage (?). See my confusion. I just don’t get it. 
And I also wonder if not submitting sends them a signal that kid can’t score. And if test optional is mostly to get the kids they want (sports, music, art, first gen…. Whatever their niche categories happen to be) and still show super high averages? So is it test optional for only a certain cohort of kids? Obviously they won’t admit to this, but I wonder. 
I am using U Chicago example because they have been test optional for a while (not because my kid wants that school) so maybe their numbers are already skewed? 
I just find this entire business to be bullshit. And frankly, confusing. 

[GoodGrief3]

I would not hesitate to submit a 1530 for any school, honestly.

I don't like the test optional situation as it is currently practiced.

[MEmama]

 

21 hours ago, Roadrunner said:

And I also wonder if not submitting sends them a signal that kid can’t score. And if test optional is mostly to get the kids they want (sports, music, art, first gen…. Whatever their niche categories happen to be) and still show super high averages? So is it test optional for only a certain cohort of kids? Obviously they won’t admit to this, but I wonder. 

Idk. DS didn’t submit test scores and was admitted to even the reachiest school he applied to (Northeastern, which had a ridiculously low acceptance that year). He wasn’t aiming to run for them, so his application was definitely considered on a holistic basis. 
 

[Roadrunner]

2 hours ago, MEmama said:

 

Idk. DS didn’t submit test scores and was admitted to even the reachiest school he applied to (Northeastern, which had a ridiculously low acceptance that year). He wasn’t aiming to run for them, so his application was definitely considered on a holistic basis. 
 

Then what is a point of those scores? 
I am assuming yours applied ED. I wonder if they care less with ED because of yield? 
just thinking through this.

Also may I ask which major he plans on pursuing? Wondering if they care more for STEM? 

It doesn’t seem logical for me to submit a score of it doesn’t matter. 

Edited January 16, 2022 by Roadrunner

[MEmama]

2 hours ago, Roadrunner said:

Then what is a point of those scores? 
I am assuming yours applied ED. I wonder if they care less with ED because of yield? 
just thinking through this.

Also may I ask which major he plans on pursuing? Wondering if they care more for STEM? 

It doesn’t seem logical for me to submit a score of it doesn’t matter. 

No, he applied early action— non binding. There were record numbers of students who applied early due to the uncertainty of the admissions process during the early days of covid.
 

He is a Computer Science major. 
 

The way we thought about submitting test scores was that doing so would offer one more piece of information for admissions to consider, similar to high level extracurriculars, any college classes already completed, job or volunteer experience, optional additional essays, and so on. In his case, he submitted his score to some schools but not all, and was accepted to all except two— neither of which he was he a terribly good fit for regardless.
 

Everyone was flying totally blind since test optional was a brand new policy, but I feel confident that he took the right approach in a year when testing was as fraught and limited as it was. If testing is more easily accessible now, I would likely encourage a different approach, particularly for competitive schools, if your child is a good test taker. Test optional does give kids whose test scores don’t reflect their abilities an opportunity to allow their other accomplishments and abilities to shine without being weighed down by a singular score.

[daijobu]

...and just as @Not_a_Number predicted, students are relying on lies and exaggerations in their essays for admissions.  

https://nypost.com/2022/01/13/how-college-applicants-embellish-admission-essays/

https://nypost.com/2022/01/11/rhodes-scholar-denied-honor-after-dishonesty-about-life-story/

https://www.chronicle.com/article/the-dredging

"Multiple college consultants told The Post that the college application process now features more questions about overcoming obstacles. The 2021-2022 essay prompts from Common App, the organization that oversees undergrad applications for more than 900 schools, include “Recount a time when you faced a challenge, setback, or failure.”

"an anonymous accuser sent an email to Penn and the Rhodes Trust, claiming Fierceton’s story was “blatantly dishonest.” The email reportedly alleged that Fierceton grew up in St. Louis, Mo., with her mother, an educated radiologist; that her family was upper-middle class; and that she had attended a fancy private high school and enjoyed such high-end hobbies as horseback riding."

"Fierceton lived with her mother, Carrie Morrison — a divorcée and director of breast imaging and mammography at a local hospital — “on a [suburban] tree-lined cul-de-sac with large houses and well-groomed lawns.” 

"According to Winkelstein’s subsequent report, Fierceton was raised in an upper-middle-class household; it also notes her mother is a radiologist and that her grandfather had graduated from college."

 “If ‘first generation’ means the first in one’s family to attend college — the widely used, common-sense meaning — Fierceton’s answer would be plainly false.”  However, according to the school’s website, this definition can also include students who are the first in their families to “pursue higher education at an elite institution.” Fierceton’s mother did not attend an Ivy League university"

"The committee concluded that this was “inconsistent with the hospital records,” adding, “Either [Fierceton] has fabricated this abuse by her mother, or her mother has lied about the terrible abuse…”"

“On the economic side, there are so many applications to schools that it is impossible for schools to fact check everything.”

"Some kids will claim in their essays that they “published” a novel or memoir, when in fact their parents have hired a self-publishing outfit to produce what looks like a legitimate book. Other teens will write about their “meaningful” volunteer work in developing countries, when their moms and dads have funded the trips abroad just so they can have college essay fodder. Now, some students are even going so far as to register their own patents for research they have never completed."

“Basically, these schools are pushing kids to have a trauma in their life before they’re 17,'” said one Manhattan-based tutor, adding that they have worked with deserving students who have never had huge obstacles in life, and as a result cannot compete for the top schools, such as Yale, Princeton or Harvard.

“The irony of going ‘test optional’ is that it opens the door to more shenanigans,” he told The Post.

 

In 2016, one parent took to social media to complain about a friend of her son who created a charity in her name dedicated to the deaf.  “She registered it, made a website, logo, the works, but hasn’t done ANYTHING with it,” the unidentified parent posted on an online forum set up by College Confidential, an education consulting company for users asking questions about college admissions. The parent went on to say that the student put the charity on her list of extracurricular activities and was accepted to Stanford that year.

Meanwhile, some legitimately underprivileged students resist dwelling on their personal hardships and insist upon being accepted on their merits. One college essay tutor told The Post how she urged a high school student to play up her background to win points.

“I worked with a student in the fall who actually had hardships — she immigrated to the US as a child and has seen and lived in real poverty,” the essay coach said. “But she was reluctant to capitalize on that because she didn’t want it to define her.”

[Frances]

21 minutes ago, daijobu said:

...and just as @Not_a_Number predicted, students are relying on lies and exaggerations in their essays for admissions.  

https://nypost.com/2022/01/13/how-college-applicants-embellish-admission-essays/

https://nypost.com/2022/01/11/rhodes-scholar-denied-honor-after-dishonesty-about-life-story/

https://www.chronicle.com/article/the-dredging

"Multiple college consultants told The Post that the college application process now features more questions about overcoming obstacles. The 2021-2022 essay prompts from Common App, the organization that oversees undergrad applications for more than 900 schools, include “Recount a time when you faced a challenge, setback, or failure.”

"an anonymous accuser sent an email to Penn and the Rhodes Trust, claiming Fierceton’s story was “blatantly dishonest.” The email reportedly alleged that Fierceton grew up in St. Louis, Mo., with her mother, an educated radiologist; that her family was upper-middle class; and that she had attended a fancy private high school and enjoyed such high-end hobbies as horseback riding."

"Fierceton lived with her mother, Carrie Morrison — a divorcée and director of breast imaging and mammography at a local hospital — “on a [suburban] tree-lined cul-de-sac with large houses and well-groomed lawns.” 

"According to Winkelstein’s subsequent report, Fierceton was raised in an upper-middle-class household; it also notes her mother is a radiologist and that her grandfather had graduated from college."

 “If ‘first generation’ means the first in one’s family to attend college — the widely used, common-sense meaning — Fierceton’s answer would be plainly false.”  However, according to the school’s website, this definition can also include students who are the first in their families to “pursue higher education at an elite institution.” Fierceton’s mother did not attend an Ivy League university"

"The committee concluded that this was “inconsistent with the hospital records,” adding, “Either [Fierceton] has fabricated this abuse by her mother, or her mother has lied about the terrible abuse…”"

“On the economic side, there are so many applications to schools that it is impossible for schools to fact check everything.”

"Some kids will claim in their essays that they “published” a novel or memoir, when in fact their parents have hired a self-publishing outfit to produce what looks like a legitimate book. Other teens will write about their “meaningful” volunteer work in developing countries, when their moms and dads have funded the trips abroad just so they can have college essay fodder. Now, some students are even going so far as to register their own patents for research they have never completed."

“Basically, these schools are pushing kids to have a trauma in their life before they’re 17,'” said one Manhattan-based tutor, adding that they have worked with deserving students who have never had huge obstacles in life, and as a result cannot compete for the top schools, such as Yale, Princeton or Harvard.

“The irony of going ‘test optional’ is that it opens the door to more shenanigans,” he told The Post.

 

In 2016, one parent took to social media to complain about a friend of her son who created a charity in her name dedicated to the deaf.  “She registered it, made a website, logo, the works, but hasn’t done ANYTHING with it,” the unidentified parent posted on an online forum set up by College Confidential, an education consulting company for users asking questions about college admissions. The parent went on to say that the student put the charity on her list of extracurricular activities and was accepted to Stanford that year.

Meanwhile, some legitimately underprivileged students resist dwelling on their personal hardships and insist upon being accepted on their merits. One college essay tutor told The Post how she urged a high school student to play up her background to win points.

“I worked with a student in the fall who actually had hardships — she immigrated to the US as a child and has seen and lived in real poverty,” the essay coach said. “But she was reluctant to capitalize on that because she didn’t want it to define her.”

Unfortunately, I don’t think this is anything new, but of course now it carries more weight for test optional schools. And it’s not just for undergrad admissions. For quite awhile now, the US medical school application has allowed students to self-identify as from a disadvantaged background and then explain why in an essay.

Edited January 17, 2022 by Frances

[Roadrunner]

22 minutes ago, daijobu said:

...and just as @Not_a_Number predicted, students are relying on lies and exaggerations in their essays for admissions.  

https://nypost.com/2022/01/13/how-college-applicants-embellish-admission-essays/

https://nypost.com/2022/01/11/rhodes-scholar-denied-honor-after-dishonesty-about-life-story/

https://www.chronicle.com/article/the-dredging

"Multiple college consultants told The Post that the college application process now features more questions about overcoming obstacles. The 2021-2022 essay prompts from Common App, the organization that oversees undergrad applications for more than 900 schools, include “Recount a time when you faced a challenge, setback, or failure.”

"an anonymous accuser sent an email to Penn and the Rhodes Trust, claiming Fierceton’s story was “blatantly dishonest.” The email reportedly alleged that Fierceton grew up in St. Louis, Mo., with her mother, an educated radiologist; that her family was upper-middle class; and that she had attended a fancy private high school and enjoyed such high-end hobbies as horseback riding."

"Fierceton lived with her mother, Carrie Morrison — a divorcée and director of breast imaging and mammography at a local hospital — “on a [suburban] tree-lined cul-de-sac with large houses and well-groomed lawns.” 

"According to Winkelstein’s subsequent report, Fierceton was raised in an upper-middle-class household; it also notes her mother is a radiologist and that her grandfather had graduated from college."

 “If ‘first generation’ means the first in one’s family to attend college — the widely used, common-sense meaning — Fierceton’s answer would be plainly false.”  However, according to the school’s website, this definition can also include students who are the first in their families to “pursue higher education at an elite institution.” Fierceton’s mother did not attend an Ivy League university"

"The committee concluded that this was “inconsistent with the hospital records,” adding, “Either [Fierceton] has fabricated this abuse by her mother, or her mother has lied about the terrible abuse…”"

“On the economic side, there are so many applications to schools that it is impossible for schools to fact check everything.”

"Some kids will claim in their essays that they “published” a novel or memoir, when in fact their parents have hired a self-publishing outfit to produce what looks like a legitimate book. Other teens will write about their “meaningful” volunteer work in developing countries, when their moms and dads have funded the trips abroad just so they can have college essay fodder. Now, some students are even going so far as to register their own patents for research they have never completed."

“Basically, these schools are pushing kids to have a trauma in their life before they’re 17,'” said one Manhattan-based tutor, adding that they have worked with deserving students who have never had huge obstacles in life, and as a result cannot compete for the top schools, such as Yale, Princeton or Harvard.

“The irony of going ‘test optional’ is that it opens the door to more shenanigans,” he told The Post.

 

In 2016, one parent took to social media to complain about a friend of her son who created a charity in her name dedicated to the deaf.  “She registered it, made a website, logo, the works, but hasn’t done ANYTHING with it,” the unidentified parent posted on an online forum set up by College Confidential, an education consulting company for users asking questions about college admissions. The parent went on to say that the student put the charity on her list of extracurricular activities and was accepted to Stanford that year.

Meanwhile, some legitimately underprivileged students resist dwelling on their personal hardships and insist upon being accepted on their merits. One college essay tutor told The Post how she urged a high school student to play up her background to win points.

“I worked with a student in the fall who actually had hardships — she immigrated to the US as a child and has seen and lived in real poverty,” the essay coach said. “But she was reluctant to capitalize on that because she didn’t want it to define her.”

Not surprised. But really turned off by this process. 
I think this is a true picture sadly of holistic admissions. 

 

Edited January 17, 2022 by Roadrunner

[MEmama]

The essays are crazy making.
 

Lying, exaggerating and embellishing are nothing new—we heard some real doozies when DS was researching the process. Not to mention the hiring of professional writers and tutors to assist with formulating the “perfect” essay, the endless hours spent obsessing over every word, the pressure pressure pressure on this singular source of information. 
 

And in the end, just like SAT or ACT scores, it’s just one piece of information. IIRC we read that an admissions officer spends all of like six minutes per *application*, at least initially— no amount of sleep deprivation over every.single.word in an essay is going to be much noticed.

[Roadrunner]

5 hours ago, MEmama said:

The essays are crazy making.
 

Lying, exaggerating and embellishing are nothing new—we heard some real doozies when DS was researching the process. Not to mention the hiring of professional writers and tutors to assist with formulating the “perfect” essay, the endless hours spent obsessing over every word, the pressure pressure pressure on this singular source of information. 
 

And in the end, just like SAT or ACT scores, it’s just one piece of information. IIRC we read that an admissions officer spends all of like six minutes per *application*, at least initially— no amount of sleep deprivation over every.single.word in an essay is going to be much noticed.

You know, admissions people are idiots for falling for these stories. They are encouraging fraud by placing so much emphasis on those essays. 
Here every kid in our PS is told essays carry a huge weight. No wonder kids and parents get desperate.

We are picking schools here based on least amount of writing required. Have couple that don’t require essays at all. 🤣 But I think we will submit scores especially since mine is homeschooled. 
 

[MEmama]

4 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

You know, admissions people are idiots for falling for these stories. They are encouraging fraud by placing so much emphasis on those essays. 
Here every kid in our PS is told essays carry a huge weight. No wonder kids and parents get desperate.

We are picking schools here based on least amount of writing required. Have couple that don’t require essays at all. 🤣 But I think we will submit scores especially since mine is homeschooled. 
 

Yeah, I can see scores carrying extra importance for a homeschooler, but gads those essays! DS also avoided schools that requested more than one (and opted out of writing an optional essay for one of the two schools he wasn’t admitted to, lol). But the pressure to perfect even one was overwhelming. I’d avoid reading College Confidential at all costs! Lol

DS fretted over his for an entire summer, got all caught up in his head with something that didn’t at all sound like him, ended up with an entirely different focus at the last minute and rewrote the entire thing the night before applications were due. Lol. It wasn’t his best piece of writing by any stretch but it was unique and funny and showed his “voice”— as imperfect and very 17 year old sounding as it was. And honestly, I think that’s what (most) admissions officers are looking for. I’m certain they see through the falsified stories, the invented hardships (they know a surprising amount about the student’s life, after all), and the overly polished professional essays. True some students are rewarded for their lack of ethics or their parents' willingness to spend money on professional help, but I don’t think it’s the be all end all by any stretch. I am curious how they suss out whether a student is a good fit for a particular program or school, but based on DS's experiences and those of his friends, I don’t think the decisions typically come down to only one or two pieces of information. 

[MEmama]

A lot of overseas schools don’t require essays, fwiw. The entire process for applying to Irish universities was a breeze compared to US schools; many accept the Common App but they don’t place the same emphasis on “hooks” like in North America.
 

The process is much more straightforward— requirements are clearly listed and the student knows beforehand if they meet them or not (grades, required coursework for the program, AP scores, SAT/ACT/IB scores, language proficiency if not a native English speaker). I highly encourage North American students to broaden their university search; studying overseas isn’t for everyone but it is an incredible experience for the right students. And the process is so much more sane!

Edited January 17, 2022 by MEmama

[Roadrunner]

4 hours ago, MEmama said:

A lot of overseas schools don’t require essays, fwiw. The entire process for applying to Irish universities was a breeze compared to US schools; many accept the Common App but they don’t place the same emphasis on “hooks” like in North America.
 

The process is much more straightforward— requirements are clearly listed and the student knows beforehand if they meet them or not (grades, required coursework for the program, AP scores, SAT/ACT/IB scores, language proficiency if not a native English speaker). I highly encourage North American students to broaden their university search; studying overseas isn’t for everyone but it is an incredible experience for the right students. And the process is so much more sane!

I wish we were on the East Coast. I would have had more luck persuading DS to apply to schools overseas. From CA it’s a bit too far. But yes, I have a nephew in Berlin who loves it there. 

[MEmama]

22 hours ago, Roadrunner said:

I wish we were on the East Coast. I would have had more luck persuading DS to apply to schools overseas. From CA it’s a bit too far. But yes, I have a nephew in Berlin who loves it there. 

One of DS's good friends at university in Dublin is from LA…just saying’…Lol. 🤣
 

Yeah, it’s definitely trickier going to school in Europe from the west coast, I’m sorry I didn’t take that into consideration. Generally speaking, though, I do think it would behoove a lot of North American families to consider studying overseas; besides the incredible experience, it can be surprisingly inexpensive compared to some schools here (even if paying full international tuition). The tuition thing kinda embarrasses me, because to his Irish friends it sounds extravagant but to us it’s a steal (he was awarded an impressive scholarship but even without, it would still be much less than any school he considered here). And many schools accept American scholarships, reducing tuition even further. 
 

Hopping off my soapbox now! 🙂 

[Roadrunner]

2 hours ago, MEmama said:

One of DS's good friends at university in Dublin is from LA…just saying’…Lol. 🤣
 

Yeah, it’s definitely trickier going to school in Europe from the west coast, I’m sorry I didn’t take that into consideration. Generally speaking, though, I do think it would behoove a lot of North American families to consider studying overseas; besides the incredible experience, it can be surprisingly inexpensive compared to some schools here (even if paying full international tuition). The tuition thing kinda embarrasses me, because to his Irish friends it sounds extravagant but to us it’s a steal (he was awarded an impressive scholarship but even without, it would still be much less than any school he considered here). And many schools accept American scholarships, reducing tuition even further. 
 

Hopping off my soapbox now! 🙂 

Totally. We have family overseas in close proximity so trust me, I have lobbied. 

I think there is a concern among many over “recognizability” for future employment. One advantage of staying in the country are on campus recruitment opportunities. 

My nephew is studying for free in Berlin. He is studying in German though  (passed C1 level to do it). 

when we originally researched many overseas places didn’t seem very homeschool friendly. 

Edited January 19, 2022 by Roadrunner

[Farrar]

I would not take the NY Post's take on college essays that seriously. And the issue discussed with the student in the Chronicle is a whole other can of worms and a really complex one at that. 

A lot has been made recently about mining your pain for admissions, but the primary thing I've seen with essays that make a big difference in admissions is that the ones that are really well-written are the ones that wow admissions. The best essay I read this year was about a student's hobby. It was absolutely incredible. The best one I read last year was about movies (among other things - it was a complex piece that's hard to sum up). For some students, the essay is what will get them in. For others, the 1530 will. But U Chicago, definitely wants both. I mean, you don't put out those essay prompts unless you want a student who will be able to take them.

[MEmama]

11 hours ago, Roadrunner said:

Totally. We have family overseas in close proximity so trust me, I have lobbied. 

I think there is a concern among many over “recognizability” for future employment. One advantage of staying in the country are on campus recruitment opportunities. 

My nephew is studying for free in Berlin. He is studying in German though  (passed C1 level to do it). 

when we originally researched many overseas places didn’t seem very homeschool friendly. 

Yes, we definitely took that into consideration. DS does intend to stay in the EU, so his school and contacts (plus coops/internships) make sense for him. Another important consideration is whether the country wants to keep post grad international students, or if they send them packing after graduation. Ireland heavily incentivises grads to stay— nearly all the international students he is friends with expect to work in Ireland and make it home. 
 

Sorry to derail the focus of your thread!
 

[Roadrunner]

1 hour ago, MEmama said:

Yes, we definitely took that into consideration. DS does intend to stay in the EU, so his school and contacts (plus coops/internships) make sense for him. Another important consideration is whether the country wants to keep post grad international students, or if they send them packing after graduation. Ireland heavily incentivises grads to stay— nearly all the international students he is friends with expect to work in Ireland and make it home. 
 

Sorry to derail the focus of your thread!
 

How would one research this? 

Also do you have a sense of which countries wouldn’t frown on the home issued diploma as long as we have AP test scores? 
 

[EKS]

On 1/6/2022 at 9:29 AM, Roadrunner said:

Basically we are now measuring test scores of the top 25-50% of test takers? Is that why U Chicago bottom score is 1510 on SAT?

This is my theory about it too. 

Going test optional frees them up to take folks with relatively low scores while at the same time making themselves more prestigious because they can legitimately give a higher score range.  

It's really too bad because where my kids scores fell in a school's range was one way we gauged fit.

[Roadrunner]

42 minutes ago, EKS said:

This is my theory about it too. 

Going test optional frees them up to take folks with relatively low scores while at the same time making themselves more prestigious because they can legitimately give a higher score range.  

It's really too bad because where my kids scores fell in a school's range was one way we gauged fit.

Yes and I also wonder if there is a particular skewing of these scores based on which major kids want. I think in addition to above, kids applying for art/music/dance often have arts supplements, so I wonder if they also represent a big chunk of test optional kids. Similarly kids who want to major in literature might want to rely more on their essays… I am particularly curious if most STEM kids (outside of minority status and sports) supply scores. 
I am thinking now anything below 1550 might not be worth submitting. 

 

[MamaSprout]

3 hours ago, Roadrunner said:

Yes and I also wonder if there is a particular skewing of these scores based on which major kids want. I think in addition to above, kids applying for art/music/dance often have arts supplements, so I wonder if they also represent a big chunk of test optional kids. Similarly kids who want to major in literature might want to rely more on their essays… I am particularly curious if most STEM kids (outside of minority status and sports) supply scores. 
I am thinking now anything below 1550 might not be worth submitting. 

 

My Mechanical Engineering kid got full merit 3/4 places she applied, and her score was not as high as your DS’s score. She had a pretty good essay, a great GPA, slightly unusual extracurriculars (but not curing cancer or anything) and an awesome recommendation.

We have so many high performers here that we forget that not many student get above a 1500. If you are looking at an Ivy, I suppose that different, but schools that are 40% + acceptance would be happy with his score. I say submit the score and apply a few more places if it makes you more comfortable.

[Roadrunner]

37 minutes ago, MamaSprout said:

My Mechanical Engineering kid got full merit 3/4 places she applied, and her score was not as high as your DS’s score. She had a pretty good essay, a great GPA, slightly unusual extracurriculars (but not curing cancer or anything) and an awesome recommendation.

We have so many high performers here that we forget that not many student get above a 1500. If you are looking at an Ivy, I suppose that different, but schools that are 40% + acceptance would be happy with his score. I say submit the score and apply a few more places if it makes you more comfortable.

We aren’t looking into Ivy, but he might want a competitive major in a competitive school. Out of nowhere he has decided he might want to major in computer science. Before we were looking at Purdue as a relative safety given his record, but if he continues to talk comp science, it’s all a reach. We are looking at some competitive schools that are smaller and don't require him to apply directly into the major for that reason as well. And 75 percentiles in some of these schools are shockingly close to perfect. Thanks lord he doesn’t want engineering. I hear that’s impossible to get into at least in CA. But in CA it’s straightforward- no test for anybody, so no guessing game. 

[MEmama]

6 hours ago, Roadrunner said:

How would one research this? 

Also do you have a sense of which countries wouldn’t frown on the home issued diploma as long as we have AP test scores? 
 

I honestly don’t recall where we looked, though employment info is probably mentioned in the global studies/ international students sections on university websites. Immigration sites are likely to mention it as well. 
 

For some years DS was interested in studying in the UK but after Brexit passed his interest waned, partly because immigration was made more difficult and there is no more access to the EU. He does have a couple friends studying in Scotland but AFAIK neither plan to stay.

Re homeschooling, I would check admissions requirements for each university of interest. I attached the info from DS's uni. Admissions requirements tend much more clearly laid out than over here, you either meet them or you don’t. 

 

 

 

Edited January 19, 2022 by MEmama

[MEmama]

48 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

We aren’t looking into Ivy, but he might want a competitive major in a competitive school. Out of nowhere he has decided he might want to major in computer science. Before we were looking at Purdue as a relative safety given his record, but if he continues to talk comp science, it’s all a reach. We are looking at some competitive schools that are smaller and don't require him to apply directly into the major for that reason as well. And 75 percentiles in some of these schools are shockingly close to perfect. Thanks lord he doesn’t want engineering. I hear that’s impossible to get into at least in CA. But in CA it’s straightforward- no test for anybody, so no guessing game. 

Do you mind sharing some of the schools he’s interested in for computer science? As I mentioned above, DS didn’t submit scores to most of the schools he was accepted to. College confidential and Reddit make it seem impossible, but that wasn’t his actual experience.

Although…he did graduate from a public high school so the metrics are known by admissions. It makes sense that the game is different from a home school. 

Edited January 19, 2022 by MEmama

[Roadrunner]

Just now, MEmama said:

Do you mind sharing some of the schools he’s interested in for computer science? As I mentioned above, DS didn’t submit scores to most of the schools he was accepted to. College confidential and Reddit make it seem impossible, but that wasn’t his actual experience.

I will PM you

[GoodGrief3]

On 1/18/2022 at 5:23 PM, Farrar said:

A lot has been made recently about mining your pain for admissions, but the primary thing I've seen with essays that make a big difference in admissions is that the ones that are really well-written are the ones that wow admissions.

I tend to agree that it is the writing that is important in the essay, not the topic so much.

There was a story a few years back about a girl who wrote about her love of a certain type of pizza in a compelling manner. :-)

[Farrar]

As to international admissions, other than a few American schools abroad, I'm not aware of any country other than Canada where you can apply as a homeschooler without major additional hoops.

[NewnameC]

6 hours ago, GoodGrief3 said:

I tend to agree that it is the writing that is important in the essay, not the topic so much.

There was a story a few years back about a girl who wrote about her love of a certain type of pizza in a compelling manner. 🙂

I remember that story from here or somewhere. I did a little searching and found this article, where you can read the essay that resulted in acceptance to Yale and free pizza. 
 

https://www.businessinsider.com/papa-johns-essay-helps-high-school-senior-get-into-yale-2017-5?amp

[NewnameC]

OP

A 1530 is in the top 1 percent of scores, so I think you can submit it to any school without worrying it will count against him. 

Score (1600-1190)	Nationally Representative Sample	SAT User
1600	99+	99+
1590	99+	99+
1580	99+	99+
1570	99+	99+
1560	99+	99+
1550	99+	99
1540	99+	99
1530	99+	99

 

I can imagine that Covid trend of test optional is making college application decisions even more stressful for your student. It looks like you live in California and I know they no longer use test scores. It must seem like everything in college admissions has changed just as your student, with high scores, is ready to apply.

Good luck. (Based on my grads experiences, a computer science student does not need to go a “competitive school” to work in that field even with the big name companies.)
 

 

 

 

[GoodGrief3]

12 hours ago, NewnameC said:

I remember that story from here or somewhere. I did a little searching and found this article, where you can read the essay that resulted in acceptance to Yale and free pizza. 
 

https://www.businessinsider.com/papa-johns-essay-helps-high-school-senior-get-into-yale-2017-5?amp

Such a clever young woman, and the topic really did give a sense of her intelligence and personality.

I was helping a young man that year with college apps, and showed him the article. I did not read his essay, but he did get into Yale 🙂