Where do you store original estate plan documents?

[Acadie]

After dh and I got our wills redone several years ago we bought a (seemingly) good quality fireproof box to store them at home along with other important documents, and I thought we'd figured out this whole adulting thing. But the interior got moldy! Our passports were covered in fuzz and a few of the estate plan documents have stains. I think this happened because the seal was airtight and things couldn't breathe with fluctuations in temp and humidity.

The documents have been wiped and sunned and we got new passports, so I'm trying to figure out once again where to keep them. I'm wary of home fireboxes and safes given our experience--we'd have been better off just keeping things in the file cabinet!

Kinda hope we don't have to get a safe deposit box, though I'm not sure what alternatives there are. Maybe just a locking metal box that isn't totally fireproof and airtight? What do you do? 

[Pawz4me]

We just keep ours in our filing cabinet. They're hugely bulky, and the law firm that drew them up will always be able to provide originals if needed.

[Acadie]

6 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

We just keep ours in our filing cabinet. They're hugely bulky, and the law firm that drew them up will always be able to provide originals if needed.

Our lawyer gave us the originals with signatures. Did your law firm keep the originals and give you copies? 

[Pawz4me]

2 minutes ago, Acadie said:

Our lawyer gave us the originals with signatures. Did your law firm keep the originals and give you copies? 

Multiple originals were executed. That's how good estate attorneys do it. They keep an original, the client gets an original and at least one copy. Now I'm not trying to sound uppity here, but -- it probably does depend on who drew up the documents. Would I trust a solo attorney to keep up with their original? No, I wouldn't. They could move, go out of business, whatever. I wouldn't trust their copy of the originals to be easily located. Our documents were drawn up by the estate department within the law firm where I worked at the time. It's a very large, very old, very well respected firm. I have full confidence that their originals of all of our documents will be available to us if we ever need them. I wouldn't put anywhere near the same trust in a small, solo practice.

[Laura Corin]

They are not issued in Scotland any longer - the records are held centrally.  We had deeds for our last house but we don't have any for this house.

We only have copies of wills; the originals are held by the solicitor.

As a curiosity: many tracts of land in the UK are not registered at all (including an estimated 50% of Scotland).  If they have not changed hands or been mortgaged before,  there may not be any documents at all.  That doesn't mean that they are not owned: they are just not registered.

[Acadie]

22 minutes ago, Laura Corin said:

They are not issued in Scotland any longer - the records are held centrally.  We had deeds for our last house but we don't have any for this house.

We only have copies of wills; the originals are held by the solicitor.

As a curiosity: many tracts of land in the UK are not registered at all (including an estimated 50% of Scotland).  If they have not changed hands or been mortgaged before,  there may not be any documents at all.  That doesn't mean that they are not owned: they are just not registered.

All of this is really interesting! 

[Acadie]

33 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

Multiple originals were executed. That's how good estate attorneys do it. They keep an original, the client gets an original and at least one copy. Now I'm not trying to sound uppity here, but -- it probably does depend on who drew up the documents. Would I trust a solo attorney to keep up with their original? No, I wouldn't. They could move, go out of business, whatever. I wouldn't trust their copy of the originals to be easily located. Our documents were drawn up by the estate department within the law firm where I worked at the time. It's a very large, very old, very well respected firm. I have full confidence that their originals of all of our documents will be available to us if we ever need them. I wouldn't put anywhere near the same trust in a small, solo practice.

This makes a lot of sense. We did have a solo attorney and, knowing what I know now, if we ever redo them I'd go with a large, established firm. But it's probably worth double checking with her--it is possible she does have originals and I just don't remember signing everything twice. 

[prairiewindmomma]

Larger firms are moving more towards a file clearance system after a period of years.  It's been a large topic of discussion in a lot of the practice management CLEs I've been attending. I would make zero assumptions they will still have originals. 

[skimomma]

Please don't put them in a safe deposit box!  I am on year three of a wild goose chase of trying to find my mom's important papers and who knows whatever else she put in a box.  Somewhere.  I have two keys for two boxes and we have not been able to find out what bank(s) they are in.  She has dementia and cannot remember.  She had her estate planning redone so we are good with that but had she not and those docs were in a safe deposit box, we would not have access to them to carry out her wishes.

Our attorney has original signed copies of our documents so it does not matter too much where we store ours.

[TechWife]

We signed three copies. Out attorney has one, we have one and we sent one to my SIL who is named as the executor. 

[MercyA]

I had the same trouble with a fire box, even using a dessicant canister. I think I need to recharge the canister more often. 

[Farrar]

This is making me worry about our fire box! That's totally where we keep that stuff and have told the kids and my mom and a few key people that's where it is. We go into it often to get things like birth certificates and passports so maybe the opening and closing helps?!? It's been there for 15 years and never had an issue.

My mother has everything in a file cabinet. 

I think the most key thing is that a few people know where it is and that it's all together. My mother had a support group and they all went through a process that including compiling everything in a central location and then making sure their people knew. She's in way better shape than us.

[Guest]

I have a fireproof box. Also sent originals to Register of Wills, plus attny has a copy. In my office, I have the “If We Die” binder (should be called *When* we die, but…). It has copies and directions as to where different things are, what accounts we have, and instructions on logging on here and telling everyone Quill is gone. (Really!) 

I have never had anything go moldy in my fireproof safe but I would have a dehumidifier if I didn’t have central air. 

[TexasProud]

My

2 hours ago, Pawz4me said:

Multiple originals were executed. That's how good estate attorneys do it. They keep an original, the client gets an original and at least one copy. Now I'm not trying to sound uppity here, but -- it probably does depend on who drew up the documents. Would I trust a solo attorney to keep up with their original? No, I wouldn't. They could move, go out of business, whatever. I wouldn't trust their copy of the originals to be easily located. Our documents were drawn up by the estate department within the law firm where I worked at the time. It's a very large, very old, very well respected firm. I have full confidence that their originals of all of our documents will be available to us if we ever need them. I wouldn't put anywhere near the same trust in a small, solo practice.

Ok, we just talked to our lawyer a couple of days ago, and he STRONGLY advised having only one original copy that is signed. We will have that. They will make a pdf that can then be sent to whomever we want and/or printed and given to whomever we want.  But one way to revoke a will is to just tear up the original. So if you have more than one copy of an original with signature, then it can cause issues. Just FYI.

We have kept ours in fireproof safes for over  31 years now and have not had issues with molding. I believe my husband does have some of those dehumidifying things like Mercy. However, we are getting into our safes ( we  actually have 2 fireproof safes inside a gun safe that the original owner created) all the time. One safe has mainly tax returns in it. The other safe has the will, disability policies, life insurance policies, folders for each member of the family with passport, birth certificate, immunization record, etc. Since we go overseas quite a bit, we are always going in and out getting our passports and putting them back. Then at tax time we put the most recent one in the safe and take out the oldest one and put it in the box in our son's room. (  I know they say you only need them for 7 years, but since ours is more complicated, we have them all. Our children can burn them when we die.)

My mom keeps their will and insurance policies in the freezer. 🙂  Just got out her long term care policy to read it and it was great and it has been in there for 20 years.

[Pawz4me]

21 minutes ago, TexasProud said:

But one way to revoke a will is to just tear up the original. So if you have more than one copy of an original with signature, then it can cause issues. Just FYI.

 

Seems like very bizarre advice. The opening paragraph of any new will should include standard verbiage revoking any/all former wills. As long as the current will is properly executed there shouldn't be an issue. Having witnessed or notarized approximately a zillion wills, POAs, etc. -- I can't imagine a scenario in which the better choice isn't to have multiple hard original copies available. Or at least here. I don't know about other locales, but when I was handling my mother's estate (about eight years ago, which is thankfully the last estate I've been executor of) an original will was required. I have no idea how a pdf would have helped at all. But it's very possible other places have different rules.

Edited October 19, 2021 by Pawz4me

[whitestavern]

3 hours ago, Pawz4me said:

Multiple originals were executed. That's how good estate attorneys do it. They keep an original, the client gets an original and at least one copy. Now I'm not trying to sound uppity here, but -- it probably does depend on who drew up the documents. Would I trust a solo attorney to keep up with their original? No, I wouldn't. They could move, go out of business, whatever. I wouldn't trust their copy of the originals to be easily located. Our documents were drawn up by the estate department within the law firm where I worked at the time. It's a very large, very old, very well respected firm. I have full confidence that their originals of all of our documents will be available to us if we ever need them. I wouldn't put anywhere near the same trust in a small, solo practice.

No, that is not how good estate attorneys do it. There should be one and only one original will. I work at a law firm, and they hold my original will. They give people the choice to take it or we can hold it or for them. Most people who take them keep them in a safe deposit box. 

Duplicate original wills are a mistake. Execute one will and only one will. Keep that will and have your family know where it is. The reason why you only want one original will is that your, the testator, are able to revoke a will by destroying it with the intent to revoke it. If you have duplicate original wills, then once you pass your Executor must prove to the court that he has all of the original wills. If one is missing, your will, which you spent so much time and energy on will be considered void and intestacy law will over ride your wishes.

[Pawz4me]

15 minutes ago, whitestavern said:

No, that is not how good estate attorneys do it. There should be one and only one original will. I work at a law firm, and they hold my original will. They give people the choice to take it or we can hold it or for them. Most people who take them keep them in a safe deposit box. 

Duplicate original wills are a mistake. Execute one will and only one will. Keep that will and have your family know where it is. The reason why you only want one original will is that your, the testator, are able to revoke a will by destroying it with the intent to revoke it. If you have duplicate original wills, then once you pass your Executor must prove to the court that he has all of the original wills. If one is missing, your will, which you spent so much time and energy on will be considered void and intestacy law will over ride your wishes.

The only instance I can imagine the bolded would be true in my state is if the will was contested. I've been the executor of three estates--all here in the same state in which I live--and have never had to produce anything other than one original of the current will and attest that it was indeed the most current. I've never encountered any requirement to produce other existing originals of the same will. That whole idea is bizarre. How could anyone possibly prove they'd produced ALL of an unknown number? But again, it's possible that it varies by state, and it's likely some states have some strange laws. I can only speak for what happens in mine. I do hope people are aware that it's state law that covers wills/estates, so broad brush generalizations don't work. 

Edited October 19, 2021 by Pawz4me

[prairiewindmomma]

Our practice was always to give the original to the client along with two copies clearly marked "copy" on each page, in red ink.  Digital copies were retained by the office, but it's best practice to review and update every 5 years anyway so if the original is destroyed by mold or whatever, it's not a big deal (or expense) to do an update.

The first page of a new will always included a revocation of prior wills (listed by date if known) or language stating that this was their first will.

The witness pages included the language for the notary to also sign so that it was self-proving.  

We recommend that original wills are held in a safe deposit box, outside of the home, but that a copy of the will along with the location of the original be placed in an estate binder which is kept in the home.  People need to also leave behind passwords, banking information, health care directives (we recommend those originals stay in the home in case of emergency), etc. Those things should all go in the binder. 

Typically, copies of wills can be probated if the original will is not locatable (in my current state usually the judge needs an explanation, and all family members/heirs sign consent for a copy to be used). Customs vary by state for sure. Some states have specific statutes on this point guiding the process.

[Resilient]

Our attorney has the originals.  We have copies at the house.  Our attorney told us we didn't need to give a copy to the executors as they will get copies from the attorney if we pop off.  (We all know each other.)

We have copies of our wills in double-zip locks in the freezer, along with health-care directives.  Pretty fireproof, and no one needs a court order to open the freezer (unlike a safe deposit box). Along with the list of things that we want people to have but are not called out explicitly in the will.  They just sit there in the bottom of the freezer...  A good friend has a copy of all my passwords.  And I have a very complete document both at the attorney's and in the freezer (10 more pages) and on the computer.  The file name is "START HERE if I am dead". 

[Beth S]

PPs have great advice.
Our original wills are in our fireproof safe, and I scanned a copy for our backup hard drives.

We use a fireproof safe, but have never had mold problems.
But I'm going to drop a few of those silca packets inside, just to make sure.  Thanks!

I've ended up putting all important papers, extra credit cards, etc inside the safe.
If I die, no one has to search the house for anything.

And yes, I highly recommend creating a document where you list all your insurance, bank accounts, bills, auto-payments, PASSWORDS to every online account, doctor/attorney/accountant contact info, etc. 

This info constantly changes, so I print out an updated document once a year.

We just re-did our Wills and Trusts earlier this year, making our young adult children executor, POA, etc.
I have such a renewed peace of mind now, if something were to happen to me---the paperwork would be easy to find.

Edited October 19, 2021 by Beth S

[Acadie]

5 hours ago, skimomma said:

Please don't put them in a safe deposit box!  I am on year three of a wild goose chase of trying to find my mom's important papers and who knows whatever else she put in a box.  Somewhere.  I have two keys for two boxes and we have not been able to find out what bank(s) they are in.  She has dementia and cannot remember.  She had her estate planning redone so we are good with that but had she not and those docs were in a safe deposit box, we would not have access to them to carry out her wishes.

Our attorney has original signed copies of our documents so it does not matter too much where we store ours.

Thank you for posting and I'm so sorry you're dealing with this! Safe deposit boxes are officially no longer on the table.

[Acadie]

Thanks so much for all these perspectives!

Some of the conflicting views have helped me understand underlying issues and will help us make good decisions for our family based on the laws in our state.