CRT (now rebranded as Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion DEI) and DOJ involvement in school board meetings

[Fritz]

I don't remember if this made it into the thread or not.

I can see the call for banning some books from the school library. Certainly not Toni Morrison or other Black authors mentioned in this thread. The books in this video are not worthy of a schools limited budget to say the least. Not sure banning is the way to go but some oversight in purchasing might be in order.

[Fritz]

3 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

What would you have them do, Fritz? Take the floor. Opine for us. In the absence of staff training and equity work do you expect things to improve? How so? For whom? We can all list a parade of horribles. These are just backed by confirmed evidence of ongoing and lasting harm.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.www.complex.com/life/texas-high-schoolers-disciplined-for-holding-mock-slave-auction-classmates

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/education/2021/03/02/heres-why-racist-school-assignments-slavery-persist-u-s/4389945001/

You fire the teacher! That does not require $500,000 spent on equity training.

[Sneezyone]

School libraries are not just about students checking out recreational reading material. For some students this is the only easily accessible form of research materials, research fodder for the assignments that they’re given in class (where they are comparing and contrasting and investigating). The idea that we should ban books from school libraries when the upper level students, in particular high school students, may even be legal adults, is extremely upsetting. What is this? The dark ages?

Edited November 5, 2021 by Sneezyone

[Sneezyone]

21 minutes ago, Fritz said:

You fire the teacher! That does not require $500,000 spent on equity training.

We don’t have enough teachers now! Our schools, in this wealthy area, are having to go to half days once a week. We don’t have enough staff because of COVID but even before that there was a shortage. No one wants to put up with the PARENTS. Heck, I don’t even want to put up with the parents and I am one. We cannot afford to sacrifice people who can be educated, who can learn new skills. It certainly doesn’t address the fact that these lessons are often collaboratively developed and shared. It doesn’t address the fact that teachers are graduating from university schools of education unaware that these assignments are problematic. It also does absolutely nothing to cultivate a school culture that makes sure students know how to treat one another with respect. If I got anything from the Southlake podcast it was a widespread and pervasive culture of disrespect for the other.

Edited November 5, 2021 by Sneezyone

[ktgrok]

2 hours ago, Carol in Cal. said:

PS. IME what people are talking about when they talk about banning CRT is avoiding teaching kids from an early age that they are bad because of the color of their skin.  As Condi Rice so aptly put it, ‘We have done that before and should not do it again.’  I agree with her about that.
 

I also believe that unflinching presentation of the facts around slavery, racism, redlining, etc. in teaching history is both appropriate and necessary.  There was a good list of such facts earlier in this thread, I think by Snz, and I agree that it should be taught just that way, as fact.  

Hence I imagine that this nuanced view will offend just about everyone.  But whatever, it’s the truth as I see it.

The problem is that a lot of people think teaching about say, systemic racism issues in the justice system, or how generational wealth has been affected by racist policies, or anything that teaches that race impacts privilege is the same as saying white kids are bad/evil/guilty. 

So if a teacher teaches how administration of the GI bill and VA loans etc has impacted the races differently, which has impacted current wealth disparities, some will say oh, that's teaching facts. And others will say it is teaching kids that they are bad because of the color of their skin. Heck, some feel teaching ANYTHING bad that ANY white person ever did is teaching kids that being white is bad. 

[Idalou]

Not worth it, sorry

Edited November 5, 2021 by Idalou

[Sneezyone]

14 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

The problem is that a lot of people think teaching about say, systemic racism issues in the justice system, or how generational wealth has been affected by racist policies, or anything that teaches that race impacts privilege is the same as saying white kids are bad/evil/guilty. 

So if a teacher teaches how administration of the GI bill and VA loans etc has impacted the races differently, which has impacted current wealth disparities, some will say oh, that's teaching facts. And others will say it is teaching kids that they are bad because of the color of their skin. Heck, some feel teaching ANYTHING bad that ANY white person ever did is teaching kids that being white is bad. 

Can you imagine, for a moment, teaching AP Government and POLITICS without being able to discuss the hot button issues of the day? Texas even banned legislative activism (of any kind, on any issue) from receiving course credit as part of its anti CRT push. Can anyone make that make sense?

Edited November 5, 2021 by Sneezyone

[Sneezyone]

57 minutes ago, Fritz said:

You fire the teacher! That does not require $500,000 spent on equity training.

That’s it? Fire teachers? Sacking the ‘working family’ teacher is your solution to students re-enacting a slave auction on tik tok too?

[Sneezyone]

15 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

Ha!

 

 

She’s not lying. I can see my oldest’s eye roll from across town. James Carville is older than my Dad. In political years, as I said, crypt-keeper.

Edited November 5, 2021 by Sneezyone

[Faith-manor]

1 hour ago, Sneezyone said:

We don’t have enough teachers now! Our schools, in this wealthy area, are having to go to half days once a week. We don’t have enough staff because of COVID but even before that there was a shortage. No one wants to put up with the PARENTS. Heck, I don’t even want to put up with the parents and I am one. We cannot afford to sacrifice people who can be educated, who can learn new skills. It certainly doesn’t address the fact that these lessons are often collaboratively developed and shared. It doesn’t address the fact that teachers are graduating from university schools of education unaware that these assignments are problematic. It also does absolutely nothing to cultivate a school culture that makes sure students know how to treat one another with respect. If I got anything from the Southlake podcast it was a widespread and pervasive culture of disrespect for the other.

Amen!

[Sneezyone]

8 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

And as for Mounk...

 

 

I confess, I never heard of this person until this thread. I don’t do Twitter or Snapchat and find, in true Gen X fashion, its influence chasers gross. I question some of these Twitterverse peoples’ connections to the party base too. In all of the hot takes about the results, the voices that get amplified the least are those with the closest relationships to the core of the party…regular, consistent voters. None of these folks know that demo as it is today. It’s *my* demo and age bracket (Black, Hispanic and Asian women 30-45). The avg. household income in my zip code is $125k/year and we roughly split 52/48 in the last election with a lot of people unmotivated to vote. That’s not a repudiation.
 

[Idalou]

8 hours ago, Sneezyone said:

He’s been retired for 20 years and only gets trotted out at election time. Practically the crypt-keeper. He was the genius behind triangulation, pacifying white voters on identity issues with mandatory minimum/disparate drug sentencing laws for minorities and simultaneously serving up balanced budgets. Very popular, that combo, so popular that people largely ignored the personal peccadillos. That used to work in Arkansas and West Virginia. But people like former Governor Beebe and Current  Governor Hutchinson are a dying/dead breed. They won by CATERING TO OR AT LEAST ACCOMMODATING racism. I don’t think that’s a sustainable strategy going forward. It demotivates voters on the opposite side and creates a swell of anger that will eventually be the permanent governing majority in the US.

He also once said " drag a $100 bill through a trailer park and no telling what you'll find" in response to a lady making accusations against Bill Clinton. He's a corporatist, plain and simple, using the word 'woke' to put down young people. He wields it in the same way others do CRT. He was a hack, along with his wife, decades ago. That was their claim to fame. Oh look! He's a liberal married to a conservative! Get them in front of a camera...

I feel the same loathing toward Chris Christie, whenever ABC hauls him out and posits him as being an intelligent, thought provoking Republican who cares.

Edited November 5, 2021 by Idalou

[Sneezyone]

7 minutes ago, Idalou said:

He also once said " drag a $100 bill through a trailer park and no telling what you'll find" in response to a lady making accusations against Bill Clinton. He's a corporatist, plain and simple, using the word 'woke' to put down young people. He wields it in the same way others do CRT. He was a hack, along with his wife, decades ago. That was their claim to fame. Oh look! He's a liberal married to a conservative! Get them in front of a camera...

I feel the same loathing toward Chris Christie, whenever ABC hauls him out and posits him as being an intelligent, thought provoking Republican who cares.

So gross. I am similarly jaded. My time working in politics makes me trust nothing other than my own nose to the ground. The mic-seeking, stupid grifters are everywhere.

Edited November 5, 2021 by Sneezyone

[Melissa Louise]

3 hours ago, Dmmetler said:

In one of the local suburbs here, just over the state line, there is a call to remove books that are sending "bad messages to kids" from the PUBLIC library. Here's the example that was given on FB this morning-https://smile.amazon.com/Transgender-Children-Youth-Cultivating-Transition-ebook/dp/B01LQXHS18/ref=sr_1_2?crid=25B8KMDAG1PZD&keywords=transgender+children+and+youth+nealy&qid=1636131566&sprefix=transgender+children+and+youth%2Caps%2C137&sr=8-2

 

It's a parenting book for parents who have a child who is struggling with gender identity. 

Well, that's a both sides issue. This book shouldn't be banned/removed, but the same people wanting this book available were very keen to have Abigail Shier's book ( also for parents of girls experiencing sudden onset dysphoria) banned/removed/prosecuted as a hate crime. 

Both sides are currently playing this game. 

 

 

[Sneezyone]

8 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

Well, that's a both sides issue. This book shouldn't be banned/removed, but the same people wanting this book available were very keen to have Abigail Shier's book ( also for parents of girls experiencing sudden onset dysphoria) banned/removed/prosecuted as a hate crime. 

Both sides are currently playing this game. 

 

 

Do you have a link? In the US anyway, I cannot find evidence that book/music banning is a both sides thing.

Edited November 5, 2021 by Sneezyone

[Melissa Louise]

7 hours ago, hshibley said:

 

I live in a swing county in one of the few swing states in the nation. I volunteer with the DNC. The amount of money, volunteers from all over the country, and politician visits (and this applies to both sides) to my area is obscene considering the small number of Americans who live here. My parents live in a nonswing state have never seen a presidential candidate campaign in person in their entire lives. They live in a much more populated area but the reality is that their vote doesn’t matter. 
 

We don’t live in a democracy and never have. 
 

Also James Carville is part of the problem and why we are where we are. 
 

So if appealing to the voters, say, in the mildest of ways suggested by Mounk, is part of the problem, I'm curious to know what your solution is?

I'm sympathetic to the failures of democracy. I think, for example, democracy will not find itself equal to climate change. 

But what else is there? 

If the 'what else' is working towards reform of voting systems, I can only see all the handwringing about ww killing a nation as a massive distraction from that goal. 

[Sneezyone]

9 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

So if appealing to the voters, say, in the mildest of ways suggested by Mounk, is part of the problem, I'm curious to know what your solution is?

I'm sympathetic to the failures of democracy. I think, for example, democracy will not find itself equal to climate change. 

But what else is there? 

If the 'what else' is working towards reform of voting systems, I can only see all the handwringing about ww killing a nation as a massive distraction from that goal. 

I put my own solution on the politics board. Suffice it to say that it involves delivering on the promises made to base voters in a timely way. There is no need for anti-racist voters to appeal to voters disinclined to that stance when the base is big enough to overcome it…when they vote.

Edited November 5, 2021 by Sneezyone

[Carol in Cal.]

3 hours ago, ktgrok said:

The problem is that a lot of people think teaching about say, systemic racism issues in the justice system, or how generational wealth has been affected by racist policies, or anything that teaches that race impacts privilege is the same as saying white kids are bad/evil/guilty. 

So if a teacher teaches how administration of the GI bill and VA loans etc has impacted the races differently, which has impacted current wealth disparities, some will say oh, that's teaching facts. And others will say it is teaching kids that they are bad because of the color of their skin. Heck, some feel teaching ANYTHING bad that ANY white person ever did is teaching kids that being white is bad. 

I agree that that is part of the problem, but another part is teachers that go cra cra overboard with clever privilege exercises they read about online without thinking through what that will do to their students NOW in the moment.  And that part should be acknowledged as well.

 

[Sneezyone]

1 minute ago, Carol in Cal. said:

I agree that that is part of the problem, but another part is teachers that go cra cra overboard with clever privilege exercises they read about online without thinking through what that will do to their students NOW in the moment.  And that part should be acknowledged as well.

 

I agree with you. I just don’t think either problem is going away without the training and/or effort Fritz is decrying. 

[Sneezyone]

3 hours ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

I think it's pretty obvious there is some grifting and clout chasing here. 

Some of these so-called "experts" are just looking for work. One of the toxic parts of the American political system is the campaign industry. 

And it can be profitable to be "anti-woke." 

How much? Times walkout Bari Weiss breaks the rules, makes a mint

People like to be told that their bigotry is "common sense." 

But James Carville???? No one takes him seriously. 

 

I finally read the article. Didn’t have time before b/c kids and newly-announced half-day Fridays take up time. Funny how she fits the demo that demands LOOK AT ME! NOTICE ME! I’M KIND OF A BIG DEAL!  And has no kids in schools or otherwise. I can’t imagine why that didn’t go over well in NYC. She reminds me of my sister pre-kid. They know all and nothing at the same time.

Edited November 6, 2021 by Sneezyone

[Fritz]

22 hours ago, Sneezyone said:

That’s it? Fire teachers? Sacking the ‘working family’ teacher is your solution to students re-enacting a slave auction on tik tok too?

Yes, fire the teachers that were presenting these role playing lessons. If their upbringing, common sense and decency, and their years in the education department didn't tell them that this was completely inappropriate they need to find another career. Everyone is hiring now. I hear Taco Bell and KFC are offering sign on bonuses. These might be a better fit for these teachers. Amazon is is offering tuition reimbursement so they can be retrained for something more suitable.

There are ways to avoid these kinds of issues without spending $$$ on special training. Oversight by the principals in these schools, teacher groups that share ideas and discuss possible activities for class, or how about a policy of just sticking to the facts with no added hairbrained activities. I would like to believe if these crazy, insensitive ideas had been discussed in a teacher discussion group, with the principal, curriculum advisor, or other oversight committee, someone within the group would have put a stop to this before it was ever implemented. The factual discussion of slavery etc.. should be sobering enough that there is no need for added let's pretend BS added.

As for the snap chat thing. I am going to have to plead old person here. I don't really know what snap chat is. Being that the school did take disciplinary action against the kids so I assume this took place druing school hours? If that's the case what were these little creeps doing with their phones out during class? When I was in school the teacher would have confiscated the phone (if they had existed in the Stone Age) and it would not be returned until the end of class or a parent came to get it. I guess those days are gone. I am not sure how these cyber bullying issues can be dealt with. I do think all of the social media platforms need regulation to help with these issues. Perhaps schools need/have their own policies on social media and cyber bullying. Again, I'm out of the loop on most social media. 

In each of these cases the school guidance counselors should have been brought in to work with individual students involved as well as speaking to the class as a whole about the incidents and the inappropriateness of the activities. If the teachers were allowed to keep their jobs, a personal apology to each student hurt by these activities, as well as an apology to the entire class is in order.

I agree with you on the widespead incivility and disrespect. Unfortunately it's not just with the youth. Whatever happened to the Golden Rule? When I was in elementary school I remember us discussing America as the melting pot with discussions of our different ethnicities and cultural differences and their influences on the current culture. We were taught to celebrate our commonalities rather than focus on our differences. It was not perfect by any stretch but there was no "cultural appropriation" accusations that I hear are a thing now.

OT but in another recent thread about saying the Pledge of Allegiance I was reminded that this was a daily thing when I was in elementary school. I think that was another thing that reminded us that we were all in this together. We were one America. We were not perfect but we were working it out together. Sadly, I think we have lost that.

I would add with the snapchat behavior and general incivility/rudeness, clearly parenting is lacking here. I am not sure what can be done about this failure. 

Edited November 6, 2021 by Fritz

[KSera]

1 hour ago, Fritz said:

There are ways to avoid these kinds of issues without spending $$$ on special training. Oversight by the principals in these schools, teacher groups that share ideas and discuss possible activities for class

Why doesn’t this go both ways as far as the teachers who have poorly executed what is being referred to as “CRT” in this thread by having students rank their privilege or using whatever that “whiteness is of the devil” book is? Why do those individual cases of bad decision making call for wide sweeping new laws and bans, but teachers holding slave auctions and being generally racially insensitive should be dealt with as special cases and no widespread policies should be changed as a result?

[Melissa Louise]

1 hour ago, KSera said:

Why doesn’t this go both ways as far as the teachers who have poorly executed what is being referred to as “CRT” in this thread by having students rank their privilege or using whatever that “whiteness is of the devil” book is? Why do those individual cases of bad decision making call for wide sweeping new laws and bans, but teachers holding slave auctions and being generally racially insensitive should be dealt with as special cases and no widespread policies should be changed as a result?

It can go both ways. 

Don't teach badly + don't run slave auctions are not mutually exclusive. 

 

 

 

[KSera]

16 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

It can go both ways. 

Don't teach badly + don't run slave auctions are not mutually exclusive. 

 

 

 

Absolutely.  I’m speaking to the fact that the same people who think bad CRT-inspired teaching calls for sweeping legislative bans think that teaching that is grossly insensitive to racial minorities should not be addressed with any systemic solutions but should just be treated as bad apples. The fact is that it’s not going both ways right now. The “solutions” only address one side of the issues, and largely at the expense of actually going further in the direction of being insensitive and/or ignoring the needs of racial minorities.

[Melissa Louise]

3 minutes ago, KSera said:

Absolutely.  I’m speaking to the fact that the same people who think bad CRT-inspired teaching calls for sweeping legislative bans think that teaching that is grossly insensitive to racial minorities should not be addressed with any systemic solutions but should just be treated as bad apples. The fact is that it’s not going both ways right now. The “solutions” only address one side of the issues, and largely at the expense of actually going further in the direction of being insensitive and/or ignoring the needs of racial minorities.

My solution would involve radical reformation of the school system. Never going to happen, though I hear on teacher grapevines that systems are collapsing in multiple places globally.

I honestly dony know why it's so hard to disown the crap practices and resources, while still maintaining the need for honest history.

History taught well is properly radicalizing in the best sense - it doesn't need hundreds of thousands spent on DiAngelo style staff trainings either. 

[Fritz]

3 hours ago, KSera said:

Why doesn’t this go both ways as far as the teachers who have poorly executed what is being referred to as “CRT” in this thread by having students rank their privilege or using whatever that “whiteness is of the devil” book is? Why do those individual cases of bad decision making call for wide sweeping new laws and bans, but teachers holding slave auctions and being generally racially insensitive should be dealt with as special cases and no widespread policies should be changed as a result?

Because as we saw in the previous thread the pervasiveness of whiteness is the devil, rank your privilege, who's oppressed etc.. We did not see one single example of this CRT (that is a complicated theory only taught in law schools and isn't being taught in public schools) being done well. Not one!

I would be willing to bet that in each of these cases the teacher's were trying to implement the CRT training they have been given. That would be the only reason I can see for not firing them on the spot. These teacher's probably went to university to study History Ed. They need to stick to teaching historical fact. As I said before, factually teaching about slavery and many other issues in history is sobering enough without the need for any activities to try to further enhance the facts. What activity are we going to implement to more solidify Slavery, Jim Crow, the Trail of Tears, or the Holocaust than the facts being honestly presented? 

As we saw before in the first CRT thread teachers are being told to implement the CRT training they have been given into every subject as they see fit. I don't think we can expect teacher's that have been trained in their subjects of expertise to throw a little social justice exercise in here and there. Most schools do not have the majority of their students on grade level in the core subjects. This is especially true for children of color. I think all children are going to be better prepared for the future when schools focus on getting them on grade level in all subjects. They will not be well served by taking away AG programs because not enough children of color quailify or skewing the scores required for admittance based on race.

Again, I think firing is in order, but trying to address SO's concern that the schools can't afford to fire any teachers due to lack of numbers already.

Edited November 6, 2021 by Fritz

[Fritz]

On 11/4/2021 at 9:47 PM, Melissa Louise said:

If you don't want to do democracy, then feel free to make the case for progressive authoritarianism or whatever the heck you have in mind to replace it. 

But if you don't play the 'get the swing vote' game, don't be surprised when the swing vote' doesn't go your way. 

 

It was actually played in the 2020 election when someone pretended to be a moderate. The backlash against that has just begun I suspect.

[KSera]

14 minutes ago, Fritz said:

Because as we saw in the previous thread the pervasiveness of whiteness is the devil, rank your privilege, who's oppressed etc..

I didn’t see any indication this is more pervasive than the problem in the other direction (and I think it could be well argued that the opposite problem is more common). In that thread, I saw the same examples being given over and over again, but certainly nothing that suggests there is a widespread problem of teachers teaching “whiteness is the devil”.

 

16 minutes ago, Fritz said:

They need to stick to teaching historical fact.

But the bans being enacted to address this are in fact removing the teaching of a lot of historical facts. If you’re not for that, that would suggest you don’t actually support these current so called “anti-CRT” bans after all. 

[Fritz]

13 minutes ago, KSera said:

I didn’t see any indication this is more pervasive than the problem in the other direction (and I think it could be well argued that the opposite problem is more common). In that thread, I saw the same examples being given over and over again, but certainly nothing that suggests there is a widespread problem of teachers teaching “whiteness is the devil”.

 

But the bans being enacted to address this are in fact removing the teaching of a lot of historical facts. If you’re not for that, that would suggest you don’t actually support these current so called “anti-CRT” bans after all. 

Are you saying you believe the slavery auctions out number all of these other examples of antiwhiteness?? If you mean all the examples such as punctuality is an example of whiteness etc... Maybe so.  I don't think anyone is opposed to teaching historical facts not some teacher's personal ax to grind (in either direction) or the latest trend in education meant to make one group feel some kind of way (in either direction).

I was in elementary school during the years of busing. Often whenever a black child would raise their hand to be called on to answer the teacher's question there would be a chorus of some of the other black kids to say that that kid was "trying to be white". As the white kid who was trying to be invisible so as to not be called on I was always perplexed by this. One fellow, Craig, in the 6th grade really took it on the chin from this chorus, but to his credit he persisted. I don't think I ever gave it any thought at the time, but in looking back I wonder why the teacher didn't say anything in Craig's defense. The teacher was a black man and a good teacher. Perhaps he did say something to Craig privately. Too bad he didn't call the others out though. 

Edited November 6, 2021 by Fritz

[KSera]

9 minutes ago, Fritz said:

I don't think anyone is opposed to teaching historical facts

I mean, they want Ruby Bridges’ biography removed from the classroom. How is that not opposing the teaching of facts?

[Melissa Louise]

3 minutes ago, Fritz said:

Are you saying you believe the slavery auctions out number all of these other examples of antiwhiteness?? If you mean all the examples such as punctuality is an example of whiteness etc... Maybe so.  I don't think anyone is opposed to teaching historical facts not some teacher's personal ax to grind (in either direction) or the latest trend in education meant to make one group feel some kind of way (in either direction).

I think it's less CRT and more that the diversity education currently in education is just the most b/s, grifter version of critical pedagogy in existence. And that's coming from someone who is currently in grad school enthusing over post-Friere transhumanism.

I think that there's a problem with the education of ( and sometimes the intelligence or maturity of) teachers. They are running with things they don't understand at more than a superficial level, aren't reflecting on, and don't know how to critique. 

And it's coming straight from corporate trainings that schools are wasting budgets on. So who can blame them? 

 

 

[Melissa Louise]

2 minutes ago, KSera said:

I mean, they want Ruby Bridges’ biography removed from the classroom. How is that not opposing the teaching of facts?

Progressives don't have a leg to stand on re book banning. Both sides of politics need to stop it with the books. 

Ruby Bridges bio is fine. It's plain stupid to try and ban it. 

[Fritz]

7 minutes ago, KSera said:

I mean, they want Ruby Bridges’ biography removed from the classroom. How is that not opposing the teaching of facts?

I don't know who those folks are. I'm totally fine with Ruby and her book.

[Fritz]

8 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

 

And it's coming straight from corporate trainings that schools are wasting budgets on. So who can blame them? 

 

 

This is spot on. The money could be much better spent on academics. The children would all be better served. 

[SanDiegoMom]

On 11/5/2021 at 1:30 PM, Sneezyone said:

Do you have a link? In the US anyway, I cannot find evidence that book/music banning is a both sides thing.

Not the US, but I only spent 10 seconds to search and will come back to look for stuff in the US:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/pride-breaks-with-halifax-libraries-after-controversial-book-kept-on-shelves-1.6045823

 

[Melissa Louise]

Shrier/Target.

[Sneezyone]

2 hours ago, SanDiegoMom said:

Not the US, but I only spent 10 seconds to search and will come back to look for stuff in the US:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/pride-breaks-with-halifax-libraries-after-controversial-book-kept-on-shelves-1.6045823

 

And that is why I said…US. That’s where I live. That’s where these laws are being passed. That's where decades of bad teaching/lessons in history are known to me. That’s also the epicenter of anti-CRT activism. Other countries, particularly western ones, are already much further to the left than we have ever been. Progressives in the US are conservatives pretty much everywhere else. And, no, PRIVATE/CORPORATE activism by citizens is NOT the same in impact or scope as statewide gag rules on public K-12 and higher ed institutions.

Edited November 7, 2021 by Sneezyone

[Sneezyone]

The standards, pay and respect for teachers in the US are extremely low. There’s a shortage of them. Our district only pays $13/hr for a substitute. Five Guys (a burger joint) is hiring at $14/hr minimum and my DD is cashiering at a national grocery chain for $12/hr. That’s freaking insane. We have no national standards or expectations for achievement or competence among teachers and you suppose there won’t be a need for ongoing education? Good luck with that.  This isn’t utopia. The US is not and will never be bathing in the enchanted waters that make hearts sing. Pragmatism means working with the systems/workers you have, not the ones in your wildest dreams. In real time, kids’ educations are being circumscribed by legislative stupidity. What are the proponents of these bans doing to thwart that, and if nothing, why? These legislators are acting on your behalf, not mine. Have you disabused them of these notions? Point your keystrokes in a more productive direction and advocate repeal.

Edited November 7, 2021 by Sneezyone

[Fritz]

On 11/5/2021 at 3:23 PM, Sneezyone said:

She’s not lying. I can see my oldest’s eye roll from across town. James Carville is older than my Dad. In political years, as I said, crypt-keeper.

Carville and McAuliffe were both a part of the Clinton machine. One is now deemed old and out of touch because he called out the left on their wokism. And the other just lost an election for saying outloud what he and the progressives think about parent's involvement in their children's education.

[Fritz]

21 hours ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

We're hearing "both sides" again. One "side" is advocating to remove books from school libraries and school curriculum. The other "side" has advocated to encourage sellers to not sell particular books. 

These are not the same things. 

This kind of "both side-ism" is about looking for an excuse to ignore these ridiculous laws. "Too bad about about teachers in Texas schools who are afraid to discuss slavery or the Holocaust...those liberals shouldn't have encouraged Amazon to not sell that book about transgenderism" 

 

So what you are saying is one group wants particular books removed from school libraries but you are free to purchase these same books for yourself. The other group does not want anyone to be able to purchase the books period, correct?

[Sneezyone]

25 minutes ago, Fritz said:

Carville and McAuliffe were both a part of the Clinton machine. One is now deemed old and out of touch because he called out the left on their wokism. And the other just lost an election for saying outloud what he and the progressives think about parent's involvement in their children's education.

Terri McCauliffe a) never retired and b) is 13 years younger. Even so, his age showed and he was a spectacularly uninteresting candidate. If he actually represented his party, it would have shown up to support him. It didn’t. If I didn’t know any better, I’d think you slept through the 80s/90s entirely. There were congressional hearings about banning Rap and Rock music.

Are you going to attempt to address ANY of the issues I raised WRT legislation, pay, or teacher education?

Edited November 7, 2021 by Sneezyone

[Melissa Louise]

25 minutes ago, Fritz said:

So what you are saying is one group wants particular books removed from school libraries but you are free to purchase these same books for yourself. The other group does not want anyone to be able to purchase the books period, correct?

And both are wrong. 

Nobody should be using political energy to ban books/lobby corporations to restrict sale of books. 

As much as I hate the freaking deal with devil book, I'd not spend a moment of time seeking to ban it/restrict sales of it. 

I think it's pernicious, I'd want my child's kindergarten teacher to justify its use, but having been part of the left for decades, and not newly discovering these issues with all the zeal of a convert, I happen to remember that we don't do banning of books. That was the province of the religious right. 

The hypocrisy now is unreal. Left hand cries foul at banning, right hand busy justifying why some books are hate crimes.  

None of these people will call out the growing authoritarianism in progressive spaces, not one. 

 

[Idalou]

2 hours ago, Fritz said:

Carville and McAuliffe were both a part of the Clinton machine. One is now deemed old and out of touch because he called out the left on their wokism. And the other just lost an election for saying outloud what he and the progressives think about parent's involvement in their children's education.

 What is your definition of woke? It's not a word people really use anymore unless as an accusation. But I think you use it often.

[Idalou]

I also have noticed the past couple of days, every dingleberry with an R after their name has made  a statement about woke, with cute add ons like wokism and wokers. Apparently they all got the same instruction page for November! 

Edited November 8, 2021 by Idalou

[Melissa Louise]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/nov/07/virginia-new-jersey-white-working-class-critical-race-theory-democrats-republicans

 

[bookbard]

I am very late to the party here and not qualified to comment on much of it. I do have children in public schools though and I'm not liking how climate change is being presented to them. I am generally lefter than the Greens party, btw. But the kids are getting 'climate depression' from constantly doing comprehension exercises on things like the great pacific rubbish dump and animals going extinct. I've said this before, but I feel like the responsibility for all this stuff is being pushed onto little kids who can doing nothing about it, while the people actually clearing bush and dumping rubbish get off scot free. 

I feel like this is the same about race. I am glad that they're teaching a lot of the stuff about Indigenous culture. It's great. But constant talks about racism at my daughter's school are back-firing, like they're getting told off all the time for something they never did. There was a fantastic talk on TV about this, where they interviewed a guy from the US who is an expert in CRT, and he was saying - CRT is about institutions. And the more you take it to the individual, the less you're holding the institutions accountable. 

There are good ways to do these things but it's a tick the box exercise too many times in schools. 

[Fritz]

1 hour ago, Idalou said:

 What is your definition of woke? It's not a word people really use anymore unless as an accusation. But I think you use it often.

Actually, I rarely use the term. I was using Carville's own terminology.

[kokotg]

4 hours ago, Fritz said:

Carville and McAuliffe were both a part of the Clinton machine. One is now deemed old and out of touch because he called out the left on their wokism. 

If you think Democrats universally loved Carville/Clintonism in general until a couple of weeks ago then I'm not really sure where you've been for the past 25 years or so. I mean, I've watched The War Room half a dozen times; I'm fascinated by all of it, but criticism of Clinton's brand of moderation/triangulation/all of that is hardly something that first showed up in the wake of George Floyd. 

[Idalou]

11 hours ago, Fritz said:

Actually, I rarely use the term. I was using Carville's own terminology.

 But you didn't answer the question. What is your definition of the term that is being used by a multitude of people in a certain party? And you proved part of one of my points, no one but out of the loop has beens use that term, unless as an accusation. Thank you.

I have noticed you did similar earlier. You accused people of victim blaming the student who was raped in a restrom, yet had no proof when someone called you out on it. Make a wild and dire accusation, then ignore.  

Edited November 8, 2021 by Idalou
Getting threads mixed up

[ktgrok]

20 hours ago, Fritz said:

So what you are saying is one group wants particular books removed from school libraries but you are free to purchase these same books for yourself. The other group does not want anyone to be able to purchase the books period, correct?

Censorship by the government, or a government entity (like public schools) is VERY different than consumers calling for a corporation/retail outlet to change what they sell. 

16 hours ago, bookbard said:

 

I feel like this is the same about race. I am glad that they're teaching a lot of the stuff about Indigenous culture. It's great. But constant talks about racism at my daughter's school are back-firing, like they're getting told off all the time for something they never did. There was a fantastic talk on TV about this, where they interviewed a guy from the US who is an expert in CRT, and he was saying - CRT is about institutions. And the more you take it to the individual, the less you're holding the institutions accountable. 

There are good ways to do these things but it's a tick the box exercise too many times in schools. 

Could you clarify the first bolded part? Because you are right, CRT IS about institutions, and the teaching should be about how institutions are biased, etc. If that is done, than I don't see how that equates to individual kids being told off.