"Woke" culture

[Liz CA]

To the OP: I agree with much of what you wrote - maybe we are close in age. What is particularly troubling is the concept "if someone does not agree with me I feel endangered." 

I have long mourned the fact that good debating skills have vanished and this has brought it home again. There is hope though. They are young and as you said, we "mellow with age."

[sassenach]

7 hours ago, Corraleno said:

For comparison, there was a recent thread in which someone posted something like "meh, there's no point in worrying about covid"

You guys ran a beloved poster off over that and I’m still salty about it. That wasn’t her meaning but you took it the worst way possible. THAT is the problem. Assume the worst and take great offense. I’m so over it. 

[SKL]

I wish I had time to read this whole thread, and I realize it's evolved a lot since the OP.

Regarding young adults being so "woke" that they.just.can't ....

I find it useful to find a way to agree with them, kinda like this:

"I am sure you are right.  I have many more years of lived experience, but that doesn't mean I'm right.  When you [insert relevant experience], I am sure you will handle it better than me, and you can tell me all about it."

Edited November 7, 2020 by SKL

[Danae]

4 hours ago, sassenach said:

You guys ran a beloved poster off over that and I’m still salty about it. That wasn’t her meaning but you took it the worst way possible. THAT is the problem. Assume the worst and take great offense. I’m so over it. 

Do you see any irony in this framing at all?

[Lovely Bookishness]

2 hours ago, Danae said:

Do you see any irony in this framing at all?

When it's happening again in this very thread? Not ironic at all, because that's not what she's doing. Meanings get twisted to their worst all the time here. OP started talking about issues she had with her daughters when they were home, and it's become essentially a diatribe contributed to by many about how awfully OP handled her girls. It could very well be equally true that her daughters are behaving in exactly the ways she, their mother, is saying that they are. She knows them, we don't. She saw then through traumatizing times, we didn't. Why are we jumping on her and saying, whoa, lady, maybe you need to do all the things differently, instead of giving her the benefit of the doubt that maybe she actually knows what she's talking about in regard to her girls?

She hasn't come back to her own thread. And I don't blame her. Maybe our time would be better spent actually attempting to understand another's POV, rather than solely trying to make other people understand ours. It's like the difference between listening and simply waiting for your turn to talk. I don't see much listening happening.

[Twolittleboys]

On 11/6/2020 at 2:45 AM, TravelingChris said:

No.  Because both my oldest and youngest are convinced that climate change is super important.  But the 31yo isn't lecturing us or getting very mad that I use a straw, etc.  All the kids know we support various conservation measures, National and State Parks, recycle, etc.  But dd3 who is 23 seems to get offended if we don't believe as she does.

All 3 of our kids have at least one issue if not more that we agree on.  We don't say that because they believe differently they can't be around us.  And also dh and I don't agree in everything either.  When dd3 feels better, she actually isn't so extremely sensitive.  But she is more sensitive than her older sister and her sister us more sensitive than her brother.  

And as some others have said,  maturity helps make kids be more tolerant- at least we have had that experience.

Have you considered that it may mostly be frustration? I am far from perfect when it comes to conservation/sustainable living but would have a hard time with someone I cared about not believing that "climate change is super important". Because it is. It's just a fact. I can understand not acting on it - obviously that's not great but there are lots of things we know we should do and don't. But someone just not believing facts (or believing things that are clearly untrue) would deeply frustrate me.

[Sneezyone]

1 hour ago, Lovely Bookishness said:

When it's happening again in this very thread? Not ironic at all, because that's not what she's doing. Meanings get twisted to their worst all the time here. OP started talking about issues she had with her daughters when they were home, and it's become essentially a diatribe contributed to by many about how awfully OP handled her girls. It could very well be equally true that her daughters are behaving in exactly the ways she, their mother, is saying that they are. She knows them, we don't. She saw then through traumatizing times, we didn't. Why are we jumping on her and saying, whoa, lady, maybe you need to do all the things differently, instead of giving her the benefit of the doubt that maybe she actually knows what she's talking about in regard to her girls?

She hasn't come back to her own thread. And I don't blame her. Maybe our time would be better spent actually attempting to understand another's POV, rather than solely trying to make other people understand ours. It's like the difference between listening and simply waiting for your turn to talk. I don't see much listening happening.

Honestly, her update wasn’t anything that would indicate the daughter was overreacting. AT ALL. The man cornered the daughter in an empty hallway and has said many misogynistic things, an indication that he does not value/respect women, think highly of them, or that he would/will stop his behavior voluntarily. I, too, would have felt very vulnerable under those circumstances, especially with a financially and/or emotionally abusive parent history.
 

As gently as I could, I suggested that the daughter *on that subject alone* may not have been the one in the wrong, not technically WRT the law and not ethically. I hope that the OP hasn’t returned b/c on *that aspect alone* more thought is due. I also shared that my own child has expressed a certain entitlement that I neither condone nor tolerate. The two issues don’t fall into the same bucket for me. General cluelessness and sensitivity can be funny and somewhat expected for relatively sheltered and privileged kids. Dismissiveness WRT inarguably unsafe workplace conduct isn’t the same thing.

Edited November 7, 2020 by Sneezyone

[Not_a_Number]

8 hours ago, sassenach said:

You guys ran a beloved poster off over that and I’m still salty about it. That wasn’t her meaning but you took it the worst way possible. THAT is the problem. Assume the worst and take great offense. I’m so over it. 

And perhaps if she comes back (and I'd love to have her back; I like having a variety of perspectives), she could simply not yell at people when they disagree with her. I'm pretty sure it would buy a lot of goodwill. 

[Sneezyone]

Just now, Not_a_Number said:

And perhaps if she comes back (and I'd love to have her back; I like having a variety of perspectives), she could simply not yell at people when they disagree with her. I'm pretty sure it would buy a lot of goodwill. 

The glossing over a long history of questionable lashing out is very convenient.

[Not_a_Number]

1 hour ago, Lovely Bookishness said:

When it's happening again in this very thread? Not ironic at all, because that's not what she's doing. Meanings get twisted to their worst all the time here. OP started talking about issues she had with her daughters when they were home, and it's become essentially a diatribe contributed to by many about how awfully OP handled her girls.

Oh, come on. Threads turn contentious on here ALL THE TIME. I've had people say I'm a child abuser within the last few weeks. Has anyone run me off? No, worse luck for some of you 😉 . 

Edited November 7, 2020 by Not_a_Number

[Scarlett]

1 hour ago, Lovely Bookishness said:

When it's happening again in this very thread? Not ironic at all, because that's not what she's doing. Meanings get twisted to their worst all the time here. OP started talking about issues she had with her daughters when they were home, and it's become essentially a diatribe contributed to by many about how awfully OP handled her girls. It could very well be equally true that her daughters are behaving in exactly the ways she, their mother, is saying that they are. She knows them, we don't. She saw then through traumatizing times, we didn't. Why are we jumping on her and saying, whoa, lady, maybe you need to do all the things differently, instead of giving her the benefit of the doubt that maybe she actually knows what she's talking about in regard to her girls?

She hasn't come back to her own thread. And I don't blame her. Maybe our time would be better spent actually attempting to understand another's POV, rather than solely trying to make other people understand ours. It's like the difference between listening and simply waiting for your turn to talk. I don't see much listening happening.

Yes, it does happen all of the time here.  I didnt read the entire thread and I picked up on down the rabbit trail and commented on how I was affected by various things over the years.  
As for the OP, I agree we need to prop her up when she is describing a long running problem she is having with her kids.  I can’t count the number of times I have posted a problem I have and been completely attacked here and accused of all sorts of things I never did or felt.  I hang around  because there is a lot of good insight here and good advise but sometimes the bad is hard to handle.  

[Sneezyone]

3 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Oh, come on. Threads turn contentious on here ALL THE TIME. I've had people say I'm a child abuser within the last few weeks. Has anyone run me off? No, worse luck for some of you 😉 . 

I assume people come and go based on whether a forum/community/group continues to meet a need/serve a useful purpose in their lives. If it no longer does that for someone, as the referenced poster said LONG before the final kerfluffle, they will leave. It happens. 🤷🏽‍♀️ I still miss Stella and we had several kerfluffles. Her ‘class analysis’ and OCONUS lens was/is anathema to me but I still respected her opinions. She never, to my knowledge, said ‘screw you’ and flounced off.

[Pen]

 

6 hours ago, SKL said:

I find it useful to find a way to agree with them, kinda like this:

"I am sure you are right.  I have many more years of lived experience, but that doesn't mean I'm right.  When you [insert relative experience], I am sure you will handle it better than me, and you can tell me all about it."

 

Interesting.

What type response does that tend to get?

 

[Sneezyone]

5 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Yes, it does happen all of the time here.  I didnt read the entire thread and I picked up on down the rabbit trail and commented on how I was affected by various things over the years.  
As for the OP, I agree we need to prop her up when she is describing a long running problem she is having with her kids.  I can’t count the number of times I have posted a problem I have and been completely attacked here and accused of all sorts of things I never did or felt.  I hang around  because there is a lot of good insight here and good advise but sometimes the bad is hard to handle.  

There needs to be some self-reflection too tho. You can agree that over sensitivity is a challenge for many young people, as I do, and also think the example provided wasn’t an indication of that. I think that’s where things went astray.

Edited November 7, 2020 by Sneezyone

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, Scarlett said:

As for the OP, I agree we need to prop her up when she is describing a long running problem she is having with her kids.  I can’t count the number of times I have posted a problem I have and been completely attacked here and accused of all sorts of things I never did or felt.  I hang around  because there is a lot of good insight here and good advise but sometimes the bad is hard to handle.  

Being less snarky... yes, I've had this happen as well, quite a few times. As usual, people tend to project when others talk about their kids. It's hard not to do that. 

I think part of the pushback here is that a lot of us find it easy to imagine ourselves in the OP's daughter's shoes. If my mom reacted the way the OP did, I would probably not want to talk to her about sexual harassment issues again. If she reacted that way to "I don't feel safe here," I would certainly not use that phrase again, but I would also feel like someone had shut down my attempt to say that I wasn't comfortable. And I wouldn't appreciate my words being dismissed with "this is all woke culture." 

This isn't to say that I don't empathize with the OP, either -- I've definitely had conversations with very zealous progressives who wouldn't let me get in a word edgewise. And it's very frustrating and often hypocritical. But I also think that it's valuable for people to provide perspectives that might match that of the daughter... sometimes, not seeing the other person's perspective is part of what leads to the conflict in the first place. 

[Pen]

9 hours ago, Corraleno said:

I don't think the OP's daughter is DACA, I was just giving examples of issues that might seem minor or inconsequential to one person, but which might make another person feel totally betrayed to know that a loved one voted for a candidate whose policies would make them less safe in the world.

 

10 hours ago, Corraleno said:

 Or a DACA child might be upset about a parent voting for a candidate that wants them deported.

By bringing in “issues” beyond what you think actually relevant to OP situation, it seems like you have directly turned this into politics.  

 

I don’t understand how board rules apply to moderators versus others. 

 

May I reply?

 

 

10 hours ago, Corraleno said:

Sometimes what seems like an abstract or even unimportant policy position to one person feels like a literal threat to the safety of someone else. And I can totally understand why a child would be quite distraught at the idea of a parent supporting a candidate that they felt would literally make them less safe in the world.

 

Holding place for possible reply

 

 

 

 

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[Lovely Bookishness]

33 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Honestly, her update wasn’t anything that would indicate the daughter was overreacting. AT ALL. The man cornered the daughter in an empty hallway and has said many misogynistic things, an indication that he does not value/respect women, think highly of them, or that he would/will stop his behavior voluntarily. I, too, would have felt very vulnerable under those circumstances, especially with a financially and/or emotionally abusive parent history.
 

As gently as I could, I suggested that the daughter *on that subject alone* may not have been the one in the wrong, not technically WRT the law and not ethically. I hope that the OP hasn’t returned b/c on *that aspect alone* more thought is due. I also shared that my own child has expressed a certain entitlement that I neither condone nor tolerate. The two issues don’t fall into the same bucket for me. General cluelessness and sensitivity can be funny and somewhat expected for relatively sheltered and privileged kids. Dismissiveness WRT inarguably unsafe workplace conduct isn’t the same thing.

I think a gentle challenge of ideas is healthy, and in the case of the harrassed daughter, probably even helpful. I still err on the side of trusting Mom to know her kids and whether her daughter's response was in character with her previously or not, but whatever. Other people have decidedly different experiences, and why are we here if not to share those for the benefit of others? No, what floors me is how many have decided that *based on their own experience*, OP is not only wrong/misguided/downright horrible, but anyone who might possibly agree that OP has a reason to roll her eyes or wonder at her kids' responses is likewise damaging to society in general. I'm exaggerating, but not by much.

As an example, even you were jumped on by sharing your example. Worst intent was assumed and someone was legitimately upset that you might be so mean to your kid. Why weren't you given the benefit of the doubt that you knew your kid and were reacting appropriately? I find it disturbing that we're so ready to not only cast stones, bit bludgeon each other with them.

For the record, I have no issue with how you've expressed your opinions here. You were quite gentle about it.

28 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Oh, come on. Threads turn contentious on here ALL THE TIME. I've had people say I'm a child abuser within the last few weeks. Has anyone run me off? No, worse luck for some of you 😉 . 

Yes, they do. Should that be an accepted part of board culture? Why do we have to be okay with that, either? Challenging another's opinion in free and open exchange with respect on both sides is NOT the same as assuming the worst possible intent and subsequently twisting the OP's words to fit the new, outraged narrative. 

13 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

If she reacted that way to "I don't feel safe here," I would certainly not use that phrase again, but I would also feel like someone had shut down my attempt to say that I wasn't comfortable. And I wouldn't appreciate my words being dismissed with "this is all woke culture."  

But that's not what happened in the OP, which she explained more than once. Her daughter came up with "I don't feel safe" in response to her refusal to agree to vote the way the daughter wanted her to, or abstain from voting. That's ridiculous. At what point do we acknowledge that even young people can be emotionally manipulative, as much as we love them and value their feelings? OP is allowed her own feelings and opinions, too.

[Sneezyone]

12 minutes ago, Lovely Bookishness said:

I think a gentle challenge of ideas is healthy, and in the case of the harrassed daughter, probably even helpful. I still err on the side of trusting Mom to know her kids and whether her daughter's response was in character with her previously or not, but whatever. Other people have decidedly different experiences, and why are we here if not to share those for the benefit of others? No, what floors me is how many have decided that *based on their own experience*, OP is not only wrong/misguided/downright horrible, but anyone who might possibly agree that OP has a reason to roll her eyes or wonder at her kids' responses is likewise damaging to society in general. I'm exaggerating, but not by much.

As an example, even you were jumped on by sharing your example. Worst intent was assumed and someone was legitimately upset that you might be so mean to your kid. Why weren't you given the benefit of the doubt that you knew your kid and were reacting appropriately? I find it disturbing that we're so ready to not only cast stones, bit bludgeon each other with them.

For the record, I have no issue with how you've expressed your opinions here. You were quite gentle about it.

Yes, they do. Should that be an accepted part of board culture? Why do we have to be okay with that, either? Challenging another's opinion in free and open exchange with respect on both sides is NOT the same as assuming the worst possible intent and subsequently twisting the OP's words to fit the new, outraged narrative. 

But that's not what happened in the OP, which she explained more than once. Her daughter came up with "I don't feel safe" in response to her refusal to agree to vote the way the daughter wanted her to, or abstain from voting. That's ridiculous. At what point do we acknowledge that even young people can be emotionally manipulative, as much as we love them and value their feelings? OP is allowed her own feelings and opinions, too.

This is in part because there are MANY older women, and particularly those in paternalistic communities, who believe it’s not OK or is weak to feel violated and affected by these scenarios. Social conditioning in years past told women like my mom that this is normal and something to get over, not something to challenge let alone grieve. It is appropriate, I think, to challenge those ideas.

In the military, there’s a ton of discussion about to whom abuses should be reported...to people who have power over your evaluations/career (read senior commanders in your chain of command) or to outside people (civilians) due to ‘safety’ concerns. Those are real issues. Is retaliation less a risk if you complain to your boss or your mom? Depends on the culture.

Edited November 7, 2020 by Sneezyone

[Sneezyone]

7 minutes ago, Happymomof1 said:

And this thread is just an example of how I have very, very little hope for change in the culture of our society. We cannot even stay civil on here and agree on what is hurtful and what is not, too sensitive, not sensitive enough, jumping to conclusions, etc.

This discussion has been eminently civil. Disagreement is not incivility.

[Not_a_Number]

14 minutes ago, Lovely Bookishness said:

But that's not what happened in the OP, which she explained more than once. Her daughter came up with "I don't feel safe" in response to her refusal to agree to vote the way the daughter wanted her to, or abstain from voting. That's ridiculous. At what point do we acknowledge that even young people can be emotionally manipulative, as much as we love them and value their feelings? OP is allowed her own feelings and opinions, too.

I have no idea what exactly happened in that conversation, but I know that if I said something like that, there's no way I'd want someone to say "You don't feel safe? Then LEAVE!" In fact, my mom has done that kind of guilt trip more than once, although not over that wording. "You have an issue with my parenting? Get out!" For the record, I've solved this problem by basically not talking to my mom. (Although she has many other, worse parenting issues.) 

I can absolutely believe that this reaction felt intolerant. In my opinion, getting down to the bottom of what exactly the daughter wants from this conversation and why it's important to her would at least make her feel heard. I understand that politics can be fraught and emotional and that young adults can absolutely be without shades of gray, but I also think treating kids like they've been programmed by "woke culture" is no better than being dismissive of your parents' perspective with an "OK Boomer."  

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, Happymomof1 said:

I feel like a few posters have been attacked. Plus, like I said, we cannot even agree with what is civil. You will never get the culture to agree. We are just doomed.

If I've attacked anyone, please let me know. I am utterly uninterested in piling on people or in being mean. I'm only interested in civil debate. 

[Sneezyone]

3 minutes ago, Happymomof1 said:

I feel like a few posters have been attacked. Plus, like I said, we cannot even agree with what is civil. You will never get the culture to agree. We are just doomed.

I feel like this is an indication of the sensitivity that exists ON BOTH SIDES. I don’t think anyone was attacked. I think uncomfortable/challenging questions were raised about who gets to decide when something is problematic. There will necessarily be different perspectives on where that line is. Pushing past the initial/reflexive instinct to retrench and give up is how things improve.

Edited November 7, 2020 by Sneezyone

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, Sneezyone said:

I feel like this is an indication of the sensitivity that exists ON BOTH SIDES. I don’t think anyone was attacked. I think uncomfortable/challenging questions were raised about who gets to decide when something is problematic. There will necessarily be different perspectives on where that line is. Pushing past the initial/reflexive instinct to retrench and give up is how things improve.

I'd guess that this is a usual reaction to posting for support and instead getting criticism. It makes people feel sensitive and unhappy, and I get it. Sometimes, you just want to vent. 

Perhaps this should have been a JAWM thread to indicate that 🙂 . 

[Sneezyone]

1 minute ago, Happymomof1 said:

Maybe, but my background if you disagree with me, I hear my father's condescending, sarcastic voice..."You idiot...if you really thought through this..." He could make me feel an inch tall. He had a genius IQ, perfect scores on the SAT, etc. Plus my parents fought viciously and it was personal attacks. So if you disagree with me, you are saying I am a bad person.  I try really, really, really, really hard to pray, think and not make any mistakes and do the right thing. I don't want to be bad.  I don't want to be wrong, which is what you are telling me I am.

Also, a discussion at my house growing up could go from happy to ugly in a heartbeat. Even now, my kids tease me, if a discussion/argument gets going I can effortlessly steer the conversation to safer waters. I do not want the Incredible Hulk to come out. ( Not that it has in any conversation in my husband and I's house except for me.  I can count on one hand, but if I get really upset...  Hubby doesn't put up with that. Not acceptable. As it shouldn' t he. Hence, most happened when he wasn't home.

I know that is my problem, but I'm betting the many, many,many people equate disagreement with a personal attack.

Yeah, I don’t think that’s a healthy dynamic. My parents fought like that too. It’s taken a lot of work not to let that color my view of disagreement. FWIW, I don’t think you’re bad. I just don’t think what your witnessing here is anything like your childhood experience.

[Danae]

The OP did not start a thread asking for support or help regarding an incident with her daughter. From the title and the opening post this is a thread about a social phenomenon affecting “this generation” in which she used her daughters as an example in her argument. It is fair in such a case to question whether the examples, as presented, are an example of the phenomenon described and whether they support the argument. (Argument being used here as “support for a thesis,” not “fight.”)

 

 

[Danae]

31 minutes ago, Happymomof1 said:

So if you disagree with me, you are saying I am a bad person.  I try really, really, really, really hard to pray, think and not make any mistakes and do the right thing. I don't want to be bad.  I don't want to be wrong, which is what you are telling me I am.

Happymom, this stuck out for me in your post. Maybe you already know and the language here is a holdover or only a description from your childhood, but just in case — it’s okay to make a mistake. It doesn’t make you a bad person.
 

Right and wrong can mean correct and incorrect or it can mean moral and immoral. Those aren’t the same thing.  It sounds like your dad’s behavior conflated the two meanings for you and that was wrong in both meanings of the word.

Edited November 7, 2020 by Danae

[SanDiegoMom]

23 minutes ago, Happymomof1 said:

Maybe, but my background if you disagree with me, I hear my father's condescending, sarcastic voice..."You idiot...if you really thought through this..." He could make me feel an inch tall. He had a genius IQ, perfect scores on the SAT, etc. Plus my parents fought viciously and it was personal attacks. So if you disagree with me, you are saying I am a bad person.  I try really, really, really, really hard to pray, think and not make any mistakes and do the right thing. I don't want to be bad.  I don't want to be wrong, which is what you are telling me I am.

Also, a discussion at my house growing up could go from happy to ugly in a heartbeat. Even now, my kids tease me, if a discussion/argument gets going I can effortlessly steer the conversation to safer waters. I do not want the Incredible Hulk to come out. ( Not that it has in any conversation in my husband and I's house except for me.  I can count on one hand, but if I get really upset...  Hubby doesn't put up with that. Not acceptable. As it shouldn' t he. Hence, most happened when he wasn't home.

I know that is my problem, but I'm betting the many, many,many people equate disagreement with a personal attack.

I grew up in a household where all arguments were won by my mom no matter what, and they were always personal.  I spent years trying to overcome the emotional burden of having every argument be a decision of whether I am a good person or bad person based on winning or losing.  YEARS.  It takes a confidence in yourself to be able to be wrong about something-- knowing that you are a good person still and can make mistakes and change your mind.  If someone doesn't have that, then yes, arguments feel like personal attacks.  

It is not a healthy tactic to avoid all debates.  Instead learning HOW to handle differences of opinion in a healthy manner for those of us who have struggled would be a great form of coaching/therapy.  

An example recently with my two younger kids, who probably could be called snowflakes at this point in their development:  We were having a fast paced discussion with my older daughter, who has adhd and can get very fast in her responses and talks over people. They both got really upset and almost walked off because they said they were being interrupted constantly and their feelings were hurt.  And cast up against us how we always told them never to interrupt adults when they were kids and why are we allowed to?  I could have gotten upset as they were not expressing themselves well and they were heated, but I took a breath and started by asking them to elaborate more on how they felt, offered contrasting opinions on how situations can be nuanced, how interruptions themselves are different based on the situation, etc.  We ended the conversation with them feeling like their feelings were respected, they were treated like adults, and they did in fact change their mind to what we thought.  It was much more effective than just saying they were being too sensitive.

Approaching from a place of curiosity rather than judgment and respecting the other person's autonomy is what I have learned to do.

 

[Sneezyone]

6 minutes ago, Happymomof1 said:

But I doubt that is what she wanted. If I were the OP, I would feel attacked and feel like I was a horrible person. And I have a feeling that is what MOST people in society would feel.  Instead of validating her feelings.  Instead of gently drawing her out. Instead of asking gentle questions, everyone just ran in with a well here is my sexual abuse experience and aren't you a bad mom for not recognizing it.  Honestly, I would shut down and wouldn't hear a word you said.

It may not have been what she wanted but that’s not what she said. I don’t think it’s fair to project your feelings of abusive and traumatic experiences/disagreement onto all of society or even most of society. What you’re describing is that any disagreement, no matter how polite, (if it comes from too many voices) is somehow abusive or an attack. That’s not a fair assessment of this or any other disagreement. I have a highly sensitive child. Anything above a whisper, any stern talk (without a raised voice even), is yelling. I sympathize with those feelings but would be doing this child a disservice to suggest that view reflects objective reality.

Edited November 7, 2020 by Sneezyone

[Not_a_Number]

5 minutes ago, Happymomof1 said:

But I doubt that is what she wanted. If I were the OP, I would feel attacked and feel like I was a horrible person. And I have a feeling that is what MOST people in society would feel.  Instead of validating her feelings.  Instead of gently drawing her out. Instead of asking gentle questions, everyone just ran in with a well here is my sexual abuse experience and aren't you a bad mom for not recognizing it.  Honestly, I would shut down and wouldn't hear a word you said.

The problem is that the post was indicting a whole segment of the population. 

[Sneezyone]

3 minutes ago, Happymomof1 said:

Ah...and who is to say her daughters are not the same way??? So does OP have to walk on eggshells around them?????  See, not an easy answer but you guys jumped all over OP. What if her daughters are like me or your sensitive child?

Her daughters may be, but the scenario offered did not support that conclusion. Folks can only go by what the OP said about the interaction that lead to her daughter feeling ‘unsafe’. As I said upthread, I certainly see signs of increased sensitivity among *some* young people but the scenario described wasn’t a good example of that.

Edited November 7, 2020 by Sneezyone

[Not_a_Number]

7 minutes ago, Happymomof1 said:

Ah...and who is to say her daughters are not the same way??? So does OP have to walk on eggshells around them?????  See, not an easy answer but you guys jumped all over OP. What if her daughters are like me or your sensitive child?

I don’t think you’re engaging with what I’m saying...

[Sdel]

Maybe I'm missing the mark, but did any of y'all castigating Home'scool for her insensitivity and reaction to "I don't feel safe" stop and think that she's been through a pretty messy divorce process recently?  Neither daughter is speaking to their dad and I seem to recall he was the emotionally manipulative sort.  It is very possible that Home'scool was just as triggered by the nature of the conversation (as portrayed by her as a demand from her daughter to vote a certain way and followed up by emotional blackmail) as her daughter was with the "touching" incident.

 

[Sneezyone]

11 minutes ago, Sdel said:

Maybe I'm missing the mark, but did any of y'all castigating Home'scool for her insensitivity and reaction to "I don't feel safe" stop and think that she's been through a pretty messy divorce process recently?  Neither daughter is speaking to their dad and I seem to recall he was the emotionally manipulative sort.  It is very possible that Home'scool was just as triggered by the nature of the conversation (as portrayed by her as a demand from her daughter to vote a certain way and followed up by emotional blackmail) as her daughter was with the "touching" incident.

 

That may well be true. They may both be traumatized and carrying scars. All the more reason NOT to minimize what was said and try to continue the dialogue, especially WRT the workplace assault (which wasn’t just touching, it included accosting her, alone). Saying some version of, if you don’t feel safe (presumably discussing the matter at home), get out! isn’t helpful to the relationship. It’s one of those, do you want to be right or do you want to be happy things, IMO. I, personally, don’t think the daughter was wrong on that one and I’m sure we can all see parallels between the reported behavior of high profile individuals and what OP described.

Edited November 7, 2020 by Sneezyone

[Not_a_Number]

10 minutes ago, Sdel said:

Maybe I'm missing the mark, but did any of y'all castigating Home'scool for her insensitivity and reaction to "I don't feel safe" stop and think that she's been through a pretty messy divorce process recently?  Neither daughter is speaking to their dad and I seem to recall he was the emotionally manipulative sort.  It is very possible that Home'scool was just as triggered by the nature of the conversation (as portrayed by her as a demand from her daughter to vote a certain way and followed up by emotional blackmail) as her daughter was with the "touching" incident.

For the record, I'm not castigating anyone. I'm just explaining how it would make ME feel to have those conversations. But I already said a few times that I can imagine that this was an unpleasant conversation for both the participants. 

And I didn't know those details, so I didn't consider them, no. Thanks for letting me know. 

[Lovely Bookishness]

Or maybe the kid really was using "I don't feel safe" as an emotional manipulation and the correct response *for that situation* was "If that's true, then there's the door." There are things that do benefit from having the bluff called or the nonsense pointed out. I know there were instances in my youth where I was modeling manipulative behavior that I grew up with and I really benefitted from someone letting me know I was doing so, or just refusing to be cowed by my crap. It made me grow up and get over myself.

[Sneezyone]

5 minutes ago, Lovely Bookishness said:

Or maybe the kid really was using "I don't feel safe" as an emotional manipulation and the correct response *for that situation* was "If that's true, then there's the door." There are things that do benefit from having the bluff called or the nonsense pointed out. I know there were instances in my youth where I was modeling manipulative behavior that I grew up with and I really benefitted from someone letting me know I was doing so, or just refusing to be cowed by my crap. It made me grow up and get over myself.

If that’s the case, then the answer is, let’s make sure we get you the therapy  appt. you asked for b/c I can see you’re struggling with some things and I’m not sure I can help. I’ve had a parent use the ‘there’s the door’ language before after a nasty divorce. I took up that challenge and never returned. My sister, likewise, flew three thousand miles to deliver her child and recover at my home vs. being with that parent. Actions have consequences. Our relationships are strained. Do you want to be right/righteous or happy?

Edited November 7, 2020 by Sneezyone

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, Lovely Bookishness said:

Or maybe the kid really was using "I don't feel safe" as an emotional manipulation and the correct response *for that situation* was "If that's true, then there's the door." There are things that do benefit from having the bluff called or the nonsense pointed out. I know there were instances in my youth where I was modeling manipulative behavior that I grew up with and I really benefitted from someone letting me know I was doing so, or just refusing to be cowed by my crap. It made me grow up and get over myself.

Maybe. I would find that an unhelpful and disorienting response if I said that, though. If you think it's emotional manipulation, you should "call the bluff" by ASKING the kid what they meant. Why don't they feel safe? What did I do to make you feel unsafe? And if you get bluster and nonsense as response, then maybe it's manipulation. Whereas if you get vulnerability and hurt feelings, it's something else. 

As I said in another thread (which got me castigated, by the way), I am not actually a very KIND person -- I'm a FAIR person. As a result, I don't put up with people's crap and I don't let them lie to me or manipulate me, at least as much as I can manage. That doesn't mean that it's right for me to dismiss their perspectives without hearing more about them. 

[Sdel]

9 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

That may well be true. They may both be traumatized and carrying scars. All the more reason NOT to minimize what was said and try to continue the dialogue, especially WRT the workplace assault (which wasn’t just touching, it included accosting her, alone). Saying some version of, if you don’t feel safe (presumably discussing the matter at home), get out! isn’t helpful to the relationship. It’s one of those, do you want to be right or do you want to be happy things, IMO. I, personally, don’t think the daughter was wrong on that one and I’m sure we can all see parallels between the reported behavior of high profile individuals and what OP described.

But that is just the thing.....I don't know what was going on or if Home'scool would even recognize it anywhere except subconsciously....but she may have felt just as "unsafe" and reactionary in that moment if her daughter was in any way paralleling (even if she wasn't aware of it) her fathers manner of communication with her mom.  

I think you are completely missing the forest for the trees.  You want to give the daughter a pass for her hurtful comments because of her trauma but you won't give any grace to Home'scool for hers and her trauma.

 

 

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Sdel said:

But that is just the thing.....I don't know what was going on or if Home'scool would even recognize it anywhere except subconsciously....but she may have felt just as "unsafe" and reactionary in that moment if her daughter was in any way paralleling (even if she wasn't aware of it) her fathers manner of communication with her mom.  

I think you are completely missing the forest for the trees.  You want to give the daughter a pass for her hurtful comments because of her trauma but you won't give any grace to Home'scool for hers and her trauma.

Well, no one on here can talk to the daughter. Home'scool can't control what her daughter does, only how she responds to it. It's entirely possible I'd want to give the daughter a talking-to if she came on here, lol. 

[Sdel]

20 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

If that’s the case, then the answer is, let’s make sure we get you the therapy  appt. you asked for b/c I can see you’re struggling with some things and I’m not sure I can help. I’ve had a parent use the ‘there’s the door’ language before. I took up that challenge and never returned. My sister, likewise, flew three thousand miles to deliver her child she recover at my home vs. being with that parent. Actions have consequences. Our relationships are strained. Do you want to be right/righteous or happy?

Again, your armchair quarterbacking and projecting from a place outside the situation and assuming Home'scool was even acting rationally at the moment the comment was made.  

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, Sdel said:

Again, your armchair quarterbacking and projecting from a place outside the situation and assuming Home'scool was even acting rationally at the moment the comment was made.  

But it's not that moment anymore. You can heal that relationship NOW. And having other people's perspectives may help with that, if you're receptive to them. 

[Sneezyone]

15 minutes ago, Sdel said:

But that is just the thing.....I don't know what was going on or if Home'scool would even recognize it anywhere except subconsciously....but she may have felt just as "unsafe" and reactionary in that moment if her daughter was in any way paralleling (even if she wasn't aware of it) her fathers manner of communication with her mom.  

I think you are completely missing the forest for the trees.  You want to give the daughter a pass for her hurtful comments because of her trauma but you won't give any grace to Home'scool for hers and her trauma.

 

 

What I actually said was that your characterization of the daughter may well be correct but it didn’t change my perspective on how to respond. D’you suppose it wasn’t hurtful for the only remaining responsible parent to tell you to leave? In this instance both parties may well benefit from therapy but that’s a big leap you made. The OP suggested only that her daughter was struggling and needed it and I agreed with her.

Edited November 7, 2020 by Sneezyone

[Sneezyone]

6 minutes ago, Sdel said:

Again, your armchair quarterbacking and projecting from a place outside the situation and assuming Home'scool was even acting rationally at the moment the comment was made.  

Wow, really? I am not projecting. I specifically said, in as gentle a way as I could muster, that I saw both sides and explained how, from my experience, ultimatums can backfire on parents. If the OP wanted to elaborate, she would. I’m fairly certain she can speak for herself. There’s no point/value in arguing your extended hypotheticals. We only know what she said.

Edited November 7, 2020 by Sneezyone

[SKL]

5 hours ago, Pen said:

 

 

Interesting.

What type response does that tend to get?

 

Believe it or not, a more respectful response than most approaches.

[SKL]

I do think it can be stated non-emotionally and truly that "I don't feel safe here" is NOT a reasonable response to someone voting differently in a legal, democratic, national election.

It reminds me of the short-lived safety pin trend that existed about 4 years ago.  What would those same people say if the opposite voters started wearing safety pins now?

Now, if my kid or other close young relative came to me with "I don't feel safe here for that reason," I would probably attempt a calm and rational discussion ... the first time it happened.  But if a young person feels that emotional about the topic, I'm guessing rational would not be heard well.  I think the best approach might be to table it and discuss something more fun, like how cute puppies are.

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, SKL said:

I do think it can be stated non-emotionally and truly that "I don't feel safe here" is NOT a reasonable response to someone voting differently in a legal, democratic, national election.

I would guess you can imagine a situation where an opposite vote felt sufficiently repellent to you that it really would make you feel unsafe. Say, that candidate promised to close all the churches (pretend this is legal here) and make religion illegal. You'd probably have some feelings about that. 

[Sneezyone]

4 minutes ago, SKL said:

I do think it can be stated non-emotionally and truly that "I don't feel safe here" is NOT a reasonable response to someone voting differently in a legal, democratic, national election.

It reminds me of the short-lived safety pin trend that existed about 4 years ago.  What would those same people say if the opposite voters started wearing safety pins now?

Now, if my kid or other close young relative came to me with "I don't feel safe here for that reason," I would probably attempt a calm and rational discussion ... the first time it happened.  But if a young person feels that emotional about the topic, I'm guessing rational would not be heard well.  I think the best approach might be to table it and discuss something more fun, like how cute puppies are.

I think a more accurate view of it is "I don't feel safe with you if you choose as a leader/authority figure someone that reminds me of the man who just assaulted me." That's the disconnect here. It wasn't merely about a political choice. It was about whether the parent would choose the perpetrator over the child. That may or may not seem rational to some but I can TOTALLY see that perspective. Kids want their parents to protect them above all. In this family, I think that desire could be even stronger.

Edited November 7, 2020 by Sneezyone

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Sneezyone said:

I think a more accurate view of it is "I don't feel safe with you if you choose as a leader/authority figure the same kind of person (or someone who reminds me of the man) who just assaulted me." That's the disconnect here. It wasn't merely about a political choice. It was about whether the parent would choose the perpetrator over the child. That may or may not seem rational to some but I can TOTALLY see that perspective. Kids want their parents to protect them above all. In this family, I think that desire could be even stronger.

Oh, interesting. Was that the context? I think I missed that. 

[SKL]

Just now, Not_a_Number said:

I would guess you can imagine a situation where an opposite vote felt sufficiently repellent to you that it really would make you feel unsafe. Say, that candidate promised to close all the churches (pretend this is legal here) and make religion illegal. You'd probably have some feelings about that. 

I have feelings about things like proposed shutdowns and energy policies that could again make us dependent on regimes that have bad civil rights abuse records.  But those don't make me feel "unsafe" in the home of friend or relative, regardless of how said loved one voted.  I might feel disappointed, annoyed, frustrated.  But "unsafe here" is frankly nonsense and was almost certainly inspired by outside forces vs. an actual feeling of immediate fear.

[Sneezyone]

1 minute ago, Not_a_Number said:

Oh, interesting. Was that the context? I think I missed that. 

The whole discussion, as I understand it, was that the child was feeling vulnerable after being accosted at work and was experiencing other kinds of upset/distress. The child was trying to get the OP to vote a certain way. In the context of that discussion, she said she didn't feel safe and OP said, well if you feel that way...there's the door.