Should I stay or should I go? (Church: CC)

[bolt.]

I've attended the same small conservative-but-flexible church congregation since I became a Christian as a teen. I went to an associated Bible College, and then later began teaching at that same college. I'm now in my 40's.'

The cons:

My church has begun to seem too conservative. On many issues everyone says, "We're all allowed to come to our own opinions here." -- which is lovely -- but I've become quite progressive, and I talk less and less about my actual opinions. I don't think the church itself is going to make progress anymore. I used to think that, but it's been over 20 years and it's still an 'old boys club' in leadership with a lovely warm diplomacy to keep that from ruffling any feathers. I can talk *at* the elders if I want to, and they smile, and tell me how smart I am, but nothing changes. All of the direction comes from the elders, and there is a total lack of female influence apart from elders' wives. (Which is bad for me -- I feel undervalued -- and for my girls, as an example that they ought not to aspire to leadership. I do believe in women's leadership in churches.)

Our most recent pastor is a novice: very good hearted, actually a friend of mine from before he became our pastor, but barely qualified. His preaching leaves me bored with platitudes, questioning his diligence-in-study, and much more interested in my own thoughts as I write notes and read the verses in context during the sermon. I've tried to encourage him towards better preparation (buying him reference books, etc) but he just doesn't have the time for it (he's part time, has a job and a family) nor the prior education that would make such study easier (I have a Masters, he has a Bachelors). It's not really something to criticize, but, it does leave me pretty disappointed.

Overall they can be anti-intellectual, anti-woman, and generally stuck in the past about any issue of current importance. Rethinking things is not usually a welcome perspective. They are also not fulfilling any role as a church other than gathering together for worship. Neither community service, nor social justice, nor any kind of 'mission' has happened except on a tremendously rare and superficial level for 20 years. (And, no, I don't know how to take a lead or fix that myself.)

The pros:

I literally know each and every person who attends regularly. Lots of people look to me, know me, and appreciate me. I fit in there (and I'm not someone who fits in everywhere). I enjoy spending time there. I come early and stay late chatting with my friends and aquaintences.

My kids like it -- they have some friends there, and the adults are all warm and kind.

My mom-in-law attends with us (she began there because we were there). She's at a vulnerable time of life because her husband has an incurable condition and is currently in long term care. Eventually this will end in tears. The church has been very good to her, and will continue to be good to her. She needs them right now, but she also needs us. If we go, it will be very hard on her not to have us at church with her any more -- especially if she senses there is animosity.

It's associated with my employment. Because I work at an associated Bible College, it might be odd if I leave the denomination. Not that there would be a genuine problem, just a sense of it being strange to continue to work within a denomination while choosing to stop worshiping within it, right? (The College is much more progressive than the congregation I attend.)

Considerations so far:

I was planning on not even thinking of transferring churches until after my dad-in-law passes, and there has been a decent interval for my mom-in-law's stability. (My husband doesn't attend church because he has chronic migraines and is usually incapacitated for part or all of virtually every Sunday. He makes it about twice a year, and he won't mind if the rest of the family switches.) But the pandemic has me surfing other online offerings, and I have found a very appealing potential church that I imagine I would like to transfer to.

I don't want to hurt people, so if I transfer, I need to do a really good job of not creating trouble. (Brainstorming on that topic welcome too.)

Thanks friends! I appreciate any observations or advice you have. What would you do if this were you?

Edited July 8, 2020 by bolt.

[maize]

It sounds like the community and social support are meaningful to your family. 

Not to downplay your reasons for wanting to look elsewhere, but you may end up giving up more than you get.

Based on your description that is my best evaluation.

[Tree Frog]

How old are your kids? If they're teens, I would consider their input very strongly. If they're happy there and don't want to change, I would likely stay, especially given MIL's  support/needs within the church. My experience has been that if the teens aren't connected in the church/youth group, they are more likely to leave the church when they head to college. 

[Terabith]

I think it makes sense to stay through your father in law's passing/ MIL's grief process.  But, I felt such a huge relief when I switched churches.  I felt like I didn't have to keep pretending and could finally relax.  I saw switch churches; give your kids options to stay or leave depending on their ages.

[PrincessMommy]

I changed churches when my oldest was 12.  So much flying through my head...I'm sorry if this comes out random...

  It was a hard transition.  The church we moved to was similar to the one you describe.  I knew almost everyone since I had been a teen (it was a church plant from my family's church).  It was too small to really do much outreach, but we tried to help those in our church who were struggling.   It was also too small to be a great place for my kids. IT was great for little kids, but not upper elemen.-high school.  We were concerned and this was a big motivation for changing churches at that time.

We also knew it was stagnant and not going to grow. Most of my friends had begun either switching churches or moving out of state.  So I was already losing my friendship base.  However, moving to another church did not provide friends.  It was a hard time.  The new church was bigger so they could offer more outreach, but it made it less intimate.  My kids were fairly happy as there were more programs for them but having a large church was hard for me.  

Then my theology began to change and we moved to another church which was small.  That was hard on the kids.  My oldest/middle kids WERE the youth group 😞   And it was hard for me to make friends.  I was always on the outside.  It was a church with strong denominational ties... so lots of people knew extended family out in the midwest.  We were the outsiders.  

Finally landed at our parish and I was able to find my people.  It is diverse politically and socio/economically.  Also, about 1/2 the people there are not cradle Orthodox, so they're used to welcoming people who didn't go to the same parish as Aunt Shirley up in Pittsburgh.  Etc. etc.   Because it's a largish parish we have more opportunities for outreach.  

I think what I am trying to say is that it may not be an easy straight line from one church to another.  It is such a hard, hard decision.  I know your kids are important and nurturing their faith is important... but you are important too.  It is such a delicate balance and I don't know if there is an easy answer.

[Pen]

Does it have to be a complete decision one way or the other?

Could you stay with current while increasingly exploring the new one? 

 

[ktgrok]

1. Do you feel this church is a doorway through which you come to know God, or do you feel it is increasingly a barrier between you and your knowing God? Is your relationship with God helped by this church, or do you have a relationship despite this church, or is your relationship deteriorating because of this church? 

2. Does it have to be all or nothing? Can you attend one church say, once or twice a month, and your old one the other times? Or go to a different time of service, an evening service or something? 

3. Can you hold off and think and pray on it more since they are all online anyway?

But in the end, if the church is hurting your spiritual growth, leave. If it is helping it, stay. If it is neither...keep exploring. 

[Katy]

In your situation I would plan on staying at least a year after FIL passed.

I also think there's a point in every Christian's life where they aren't going to learn much more at church.  Maybe in some small subtle ways the lesson will reinforce something you already know, but from an intellectual perspective...  a sermon isn't a theology study.  You'll probably never find that kind of theology in a small conservative protestant denomination.  And in those WITH rich theology you still don't find it in a regular sunday service.  If I'm wrong and someone thinks you can find it, please enlighten me because I'd like it too.

I think the best you can do is offer service yourself.  Or maybe invite some of the other moms you know over for a women's bible study, children welcome, and start by leading it yourself.

And while I wouldn't discount the power of praying for all of these people, IME when I pray for people like those in your church's leadership, they may change a little, but mostly I'm the one who changes.  I discover all of the ways that I'm falling short of who I should be.

In the mean time...  Have you considered going back to school for a doctorate, maybe in a more liberal denomination?

[J-rap]

3 hours ago, bolt. said:

I've attended the same small conservative-but-flexible church congregation since I became a Christian as a teen. I went to an associated Bible College, and then later began teaching at that same college. I'm now in my 40's.'

The cons:

My church has begun to seem too conservative. On many issues everyone says, "We're all allowed to come to our own opinions here." -- which is lovely -- but I've become quite progressive, and I talk less and less about my actual opinions. I don't think the church itself is going to make progress anymore. I used to think that, but it's been over 20 years and it's still an 'old boys club' in leadership with a lovely warm diplomacy to keep that from ruffling any feathers. I can talk *at* the elders if I want to, and they smile, and tell me how smart I am, but nothing changes. All of the direction comes from the elders, and there is a total lack of female influence apart from elders' wives. (Which is bad for me -- I feel undervalued -- and for my girls, as an example that they ought not to aspire to leadership. I do believe in women's leadership in churches.)

Our most recent pastor is a novice: very good hearted, actually a friend of mine from before he became our pastor, but barely qualified. His preaching leaves me bored with platitudes, questioning his diligence-in-study, and much more interested in my own thoughts as I write notes and read the verses in context during the sermon. I've tried to encourage him towards better preparation (buying him reference books, etc) but he just doesn't have the time for it (he's part time, has a job and a family) nor the prior education that would make such study easier (I have a Masters, he has a Bachelors). It's not really something to criticize, but, it does leave me pretty disappointed.

Overall they can be anti-intellectual, anti-woman, and generally stuck in the past about any issue of current importance. Rethinking things is not usually a welcome perspective. They are also not fulfilling any role as a church other than gathering together for worship. Neither community service, nor social justice, nor any kind of 'mission' has happened except on a tremendously rare and superficial level for 20 years. (And, no, I don't know how to take a lead or fix that myself.)

The pros:

I literally know each and every person who attends regularly. Lots of people look to me, know me, and appreciate me. I fit in there (and I'm not someone who fits in everywhere). I enjoy spending time there. I come early and stay late chatting with my friends and aquaintences.

My kids like it -- they have some friends there, and the adults are all warm and kind.

My mom-in-law attends with us (she began there because we were there). She's at a vulnerable time of life because her husband has an incurable condition and is currently in long term care. Eventually this will end in tears. The church has been very good to her, and will continue to be good to her. She needs them right now, but she also needs us. If we go, it will be very hard on her not to have us at church with her any more -- especially if she senses there is animosity.

It's associated with my employment. Because I work at an associated Bible College, it might be odd if I leave the denomination. Not that there would be a genuine problem, just a sense of it being strange to continue to work within a denomination while choosing to stop worshiping within it, right? (The College is much more progressive than the congregation I attend.)

Considerations so far:

I was planning on not even thinking of transferring churches until after my dad-in-law passes, and there has been a decent interval for my mom-in-law's stability. (My husband doesn't attend church because he has chronic migraines and is usually incapacitated for part or all of virtually every Sunday. He makes it about twice a year, and he won't mind if the rest of the family switches.) But the pandemic has me surfing other online offerings, and I have found a very appealing potential church that I imagine I would like to transfer to.

I don't want to hurt people, so if I transfer, I need to do a really good job of not creating trouble. (Brainstorming on that topic welcome too.)

Thanks friends! I appreciate any observations or advice you have. What would you do if this were you?

I can't answer you about proper timing of everything and how not to hurt people, but I can share with you my own experience because it was very, very similar to what you describe. 

Our church was very sweet, warm, small, our kids were comfortable... but...  it was everything else you describe too.  I was getting antsy, and my faith felt disconnected from my life in many ways.  That is, what the church was and taught felt cognitively separate from a lot of things I instinctively believed, and I didn't feel challenged at all.

We slowly started pulling away... very gradually.  We had kind of an excuse because my dh had serious health issues and it wasn't easy to always be physically at church.  Eventually, we moved from that town and found a church whose main pastor/theologian I had actually discovered through books several years earlier.  Wow.  I wish I had been able to attend this church YEARS ago.  It has changed my faith and changed my life.  For the first time, my church is actually in synch with my deep-down beliefs and it continues to challenge and stretch me all the time ~  I'm absolutely thrilled to be part of it.  it's a feeling I have never fully had before with my church.  It's life-changing.

And if you're a family that thinks hard about this stuff and questions things and wonders about Biblical interpretations, then you can be sure your children will be like that and moreso as they get older.  They're probably going to evolve beyond your church, and not have the patience and reasons that you've had to stay with it.  One of the things I'm most grateful about with our new church is that even our kids (all young adults now) who are now questioning absolutely everything and might have walked away from the church altogether are sticking it out because our new church makes sense to them and helps them make sense of the world today.  It makes me wish we had found this church earlier in their lives, but later is better than never, and it's all part of the evolution of faith I guess, as we get older and experience new things.

 

 

[Katy]

DH said the only thing that's really important is the kids...  how old are they and are these the values you want to shape them?  Because it will sink in even if you theologically disagree.

[Shoeless]

4 hours ago, Pen said:

Does it have to be a complete decision one way or the other?

Could you stay with current while increasingly exploring the new one? 

 

This is what I was going to suggest. Could you begin participating/investigating another church before fully leaving your current church? 

For a lot of reasons that are not pertinent to this thread, my father attended 2 different churches for a few years. He eventually settled into one church. 

[Ausmumof3]

I would start visiting some weeks but still keep connection while you figure it out.  This stuff is never easy.

[73349]

For me, the question came down to this: What is church for?

I changed denominations.

Now is a great time to get a feel for your other local options by watching services online even as you still attend your current church. Even if you want to wait to make a move, you can be informed, and it may make it easier to be at peace with waiting.

[HS Mom in NC]

I don't think people should attend a church they're not doctrinally in agreement with on big issues. Nothing would stop you from maintaining relationships with church friends, it would just require you to make intentional effort to spend time with them instead of being in default mode where they come with the territory. And you can still maintain as much contact as you choose with your family. Finding a new church, especially a new denomination, is a very intensive effort in my experience, so I wouldn't stay at one and dabble in others.  I'd just focus on looking for a new one.

[bolt.]

22 hours ago, maize said:

It sounds like the community and social support are meaningful to your family. 

Not to downplay your reasons for wanting to look elsewhere, but you may end up giving up more than you get.

Based on your description that is my best evaluation.

That's a good observation, and I appreciate your instincts here.

22 hours ago, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

Would they allow for you to start a community service group you could lead? Maybe that could help you feel like it was more than a meeting group and give you some time to see if things change. I know you said you don't know how to take a lead, but it could be as simple as finding out if your church could be involved with Meals on Wheels, or a food pantry or something that doesn't require a huge part of volunteerism on everyone's part. I can give the example of MoW around here- it's one week every five or six, unless one of the other churches has a volunteer shortage for some reason. It rotates through the churches and we use teams of two, for the five weeks days. It's not glamorous, but maybe you could find something like that- small steps, to tide you over. 

I would be hesitant to rock the boat with so much going on. I agree completely with Maize. If anything, perhaps you coudl join a Bible study group at one of the churches you are considering, but keep your weekly attendance at your current location. Nothing here is meeting in person right now, so for us it's all online. On a positive that makes it very easy to try different places with minimal commitment, and honestly, effort. Not sure if everything is running 100% where you are. 

I think I agree with you. I do have the sense that it is kind of a situation that I could 'get more out of' if I were to 'put more into' and it would certainly be "allowed" -- but with my current challenges and mental health resources, I really can't take on more responsibility. And I have tried things like that before and they always sputter out eventually. Very discouraging.

Nothing is meeting in person here either, so it's not a decision I need to rush into. It's the exposure to other (more positive) online choices that has drawn my attention to how mixed my feelings really are about staying at my current church. A lot of it is about not rocking the boat, about my MIL and about just-plain avoiding conflict, but I'm not happy about that being a primary motive for choosing a church -- ya know?

21 hours ago, wilrunner said:

How old are your kids? If they're teens, I would consider their input very strongly. If they're happy there and don't want to change, I would likely stay, especially given MIL's  support/needs within the church. My experience has been that if the teens aren't connected in the church/youth group, they are more likely to leave the church when they head to college. 

My kids are teens, and they are happy -- in spite of lack of programming and some amount of old-fashioned theology -- they like it. They are known and loved. (They go to a consolidated youth group that is run by another church but includes most of our teens.) I think they are interested in going somewhere that better matches our family's progressive views, but letting go would be hard.

21 hours ago, Terabith said:

I think it makes sense to stay through your father in law's passing/ MIL's grief process.  But, I felt such a huge relief when I switched churches.  I felt like I didn't have to keep pretending and could finally relax.  I saw switch churches; give your kids options to stay or leave depending on their ages.

Yes, I can see that now. It is the primary real-life factor. Good advice

Edited July 9, 2020 by bolt.

[ktgrok]

Hmm...could you share some of the online sermons/services you've seen that you enjoyed with your MIL? Maybe just a "hey, I know we are all feeling so stressed, and I saw this and it really helped give me some peace" or whatever. If you do that a few times, you never know, she may start wanting to try that other place as well. 

[bolt.]

20 hours ago, PrincessMommy said:

I changed churches when my oldest was 12.  So much flying through my head...I'm sorry if this comes out random...

  It was a hard transition.  The church we moved to was similar to the one you describe.  I knew almost everyone since I had been a teen (it was a church plant from my family's church).  It was too small to really do much outreach, but we tried to help those in our church who were struggling.   It was also too small to be a great place for my kids. IT was great for little kids, but not upper elemen.-high school.  We were concerned and this was a big motivation for changing churches at that time.

We also knew it was stagnant and not going to grow. Most of my friends had begun either switching churches or moving out of state.  So I was already losing my friendship base.  However, moving to another church did not provide friends.  It was a hard time.  The new church was bigger so they could offer more outreach, but it made it less intimate.  My kids were fairly happy as there were more programs for them but having a large church was hard for me.  

Then my theology began to change and we moved to another church which was small.  That was hard on the kids.  My oldest/middle kids WERE the youth group 😞   And it was hard for me to make friends.  I was always on the outside.  It was a church with strong denominational ties... so lots of people knew extended family out in the midwest.  We were the outsiders.  

Finally landed at our parish and I was able to find my people.  It is diverse politically and socio/economically.  Also, about 1/2 the people there are not cradle Orthodox, so they're used to welcoming people who didn't go to the same parish as Aunt Shirley up in Pittsburgh.  Etc. etc.   Because it's a largish parish we have more opportunities for outreach.  

I think what I am trying to say is that it may not be an easy straight line from one church to another.  It is such a hard, hard decision.  I know your kids are important and nurturing their faith is important... but you are important too.  It is such a delicate balance and I don't know if there is an easy answer.

Thank you for your story. It's good for me to hear that 'the grass is always greener' is often true with new churches. I needed to hear that this isn't one decision with an instant happy ending. It's a robust process that will be a challenge no matter what. I appreciate you giving me that perspective.

20 hours ago, Pen said:

Does it have to be a complete decision one way or the other?

Could you stay with current while increasingly exploring the new one? 

 

I could try, but I don't know what that would look like after things begin to take up in-person activities again. I could try to double-church for a while.

18 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

1. Do you feel this church is a doorway through which you come to know God, or do you feel it is increasingly a barrier between you and your knowing God? Is your relationship with God helped by this church, or do you have a relationship despite this church, or is your relationship deteriorating because of this church? 

2. Does it have to be all or nothing? Can you attend one church say, once or twice a month, and your old one the other times? Or go to a different time of service, an evening service or something? 

3. Can you hold off and think and pray on it more since they are all online anyway?

But in the end, if the church is hurting your spiritual growth, leave. If it is helping it, stay. If it is neither...keep exploring. 

I've had recent mental health struggles which have brought my faith to a comfortable "I'm glad it's there" level, but it's nothing like a rich full spiritual life where one could detect degrees of 'knowing God' more or less based on churching. I can definitely take my time, but I'm not praying a lot these days. As I get better (I have a therapist) I hope to return to more normal things like prayer. Spiritual hanging-on is an accomplishment here... spiritual growth doesn't seem like a realistic metric between the two. (Not that those aren't good questions, just that my personal factors make them difficult to answer.)

18 hours ago, Katy said:

In your situation I would plan on staying at least a year after FIL passed.

I also think there's a point in every Christian's life where they aren't going to learn much more at church.  Maybe in some small subtle ways the lesson will reinforce something you already know, but from an intellectual perspective...  a sermon isn't a theology study.  You'll probably never find that kind of theology in a small conservative protestant denomination.  And in those WITH rich theology you still don't find it in a regular sunday service.  If I'm wrong and someone thinks you can find it, please enlighten me because I'd like it too.

I think the best you can do is offer service yourself.  Or maybe invite some of the other moms you know over for a women's bible study, children welcome, and start by leading it yourself.

And while I wouldn't discount the power of praying for all of these people, IME when I pray for people like those in your church's leadership, they may change a little, but mostly I'm the one who changes.  I discover all of the ways that I'm falling short of who I should be.

In the mean time...  Have you considered going back to school for a doctorate, maybe in a more liberal denomination?

A year after FIL is kind of my baseline plan. It seems like the most compassionate thing to do, but it also feels like a sacrifice. If I'm going to stay for *years* I need to check *in* instead of letting myself speculate and live with one foot out the door. I guess that means lowering my expectations and letting people be themselves, and respecting what they are offering in real time, from God, for all of me (not just my brain).

The suggestion of a Doctorate is flattering, and interesting, but not a good fit in my life for at least 6 to 10 years. My life needs balance and self-compassion. I don't want to take on a project that wouldn't be sustainable.

[bolt.]

 

18 hours ago, J-rap said:

I can't answer you about proper timing of everything and how not to hurt people, but I can share with you my own experience because it was very, very similar to what you describe. 

Our church was very sweet, warm, small, our kids were comfortable... but...  it was everything else you describe too.  I was getting antsy, and my faith felt disconnected from my life in many ways.  That is, what the church was and taught felt cognitively separate from a lot of things I instinctively believed, and I didn't feel challenged at all.

We slowly started pulling away... very gradually.  We had kind of an excuse because my dh had serious health issues and it wasn't easy to always be physically at church.  Eventually, we moved from that town and found a church whose main pastor/theologian I had actually discovered through books several years earlier.  Wow.  I wish I had been able to attend this church YEARS ago.  It has changed my faith and changed my life.  For the first time, my church is actually in synch with my deep-down beliefs and it continues to challenge and stretch me all the time ~  I'm absolutely thrilled to be part of it.  it's a feeling I have never fully had before with my church.  It's life-changing.

And if you're a family that thinks hard about this stuff and questions things and wonders about Biblical interpretations, then you can be sure your children will be like that and moreso as they get older.  They're probably going to evolve beyond your church, and not have the patience and reasons that you've had to stay with it.  One of the things I'm most grateful about with our new church is that even our kids (all young adults now) who are now questioning absolutely everything and might have walked away from the church altogether are sticking it out because our new church makes sense to them and helps them make sense of the world today.  It makes me wish we had found this church earlier in their lives, but later is better than never, and it's all part of the evolution of faith I guess, as we get older and experience new things.

Thank you for your story. It helps me feel like this is not quite such an unusual problem: to be in a warm and sweet church that you just can't exactly feel proud to be a part of, where you have to warch your words lest your opinions end up hurting people, and where you aren't fully valued. It's hard.

18 hours ago, Katy said:

DH said the only thing that's really important is the kids...  how old are they and are these the values you want to shape them?  Because it will sink in even if you theologically disagree.

12 and 15 -- and no, I don't want them shaped by all of these values. To value worship, to love Jesus, to enjoy the Bible, to care about one another in a faith community: yes. To consider women's leadership to be more dangerous than helpful above certain 'levels'? To find the faith of other believers questionable because of their views on homosexuality or gender? To turn a blind eye to systemic racism, and subtly joke about 'political correctness', and ignore local poverty while promoting white-saviour foreign missions, and to have one's voting habits assumed without question... ick.

But, if it's any 'comfort' they are both more likely to leave organized religion behind before they caught themselves being shaped by those values. They aren't just my theology: they are the ethos of our family. They know that I consider those things 'old fashioned' and 'things Christians can disagree about'.

15 hours ago, MissLemon said:

This is what I was going to suggest. Could you begin participating/investigating another church before fully leaving your current church? 

For a lot of reasons that are not pertinent to this thread, my father attended 2 different churches for a few years. He eventually settled into one church. 

Yeah, it looks like that. Would a new church really want a non-sunday non-member just to start coming (after covid 19) to a midweek offering? Do you think so?

13 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

I would start visiting some weeks but still keep connection while you figure it out.  This stuff is never easy.

Maybe. That's a good thought.

[bolt.]

6 hours ago, whitehawk said:

For me, the question came down to this: What is church for?

I changed denominations.

Now is a great time to get a feel for your other local options by watching services online even as you still attend your current church. Even if you want to wait to make a move, you can be informed, and it may make it easier to be at peace with waiting.

That's a really good question. I'm going to be waiting anyways, so I have lots of time to ponder!

5 hours ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

I don't think people should attend a church they're not doctrinally in agreement with on big issues. Nothing would stop you from maintaining relationships with church friends, it would just require you to make intentional effort to spend time with them instead of being in default mode where they come with the territory. And you can still maintain as much contact as you choose with your family. Finding a new church, especially a new denomination, is a very intensive effort in my experience, so I wouldn't stay at one and dabble in others.  I'd just focus on looking for a new one.

I think it depends what one means by "doctrine" and what we think of as "big issues" -- we're all good on "God, Jesus, and the Bible" -type stuff. I mentioned some of the issues-of-differentiation above, where I am more progressive than the norm in my current church, but the official position of the church on all of those things is, "In matters of opinion, we have liberty." So all of my opinions are technically 'allowed' and welcome... but they wouldn't be terribly welcome if I wanted to have lengthy open conversations where I was clear about where I stand. They would raise eyebrows to be sure, and possibly end in some 'the elders would like to speak with you about something' meetings. Which I could handle, but I would certainly feel defensive about it.

[Pen]

 

Quote

Yeah, it looks like that. Would a new church really want a non-sunday non-member just to start coming (after covid 19) to a midweek offering? Do you think so?

Maybe. That's a good thought.

I think many would be open to exploring while being at old church to support family.

maybe some family would explore with you

Edited July 9, 2020 by Pen

[ktgrok]

47 minutes ago, bolt. said:

 

I've had recent mental health struggles which have brought my faith to a comfortable "I'm glad it's there" level, but it's nothing like a rich full spiritual life where one could detect degrees of 'knowing God' more or less based on churching. I can definitely take my time, but I'm not praying a lot these days. As I get better (I have a therapist) I hope to return to more normal things like prayer. Spiritual hanging-on is an accomplishment here... spiritual growth doesn't seem like a realistic metric between the two. (Not that those aren't good questions, just that my personal factors make them difficult to answer.)

 

Ok, then given that, I think the question becomes is this church helping you in your mental health journey, hindering you, or neither? 

Also, who has the biggest need right now, from the church? Is it you, or your MIL, and is there any way to meet both needs? (I do realize that if you had those answers you probably wouldn't be posting, lol..but maybe rephrasing the questions will help?)

For myself, I have at times sacrificed what I needed spiritually for what I thought would benefit others in my family. It ended up being that I realized it was most important to me, so I was sacrificing something important to me, for a benefit to them that they really didn't care all that much about. I'd gain more by switching than they lost. 

 

[Pen]

Also, can you discuss this with all or some of  the potentially affected family members ?

ot could be everyone’s feeling like they are doing it to support others, even going to support you and not because it is a personal top choice

[bolt.]

33 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

Ok, then given that, I think the question becomes is this church helping you in your mental health journey, hindering you, or neither? 

Also, who has the biggest need right now, from the church? Is it you, or your MIL, and is there any way to meet both needs? (I do realize that if you had those answers you probably wouldn't be posting, lol..but maybe rephrasing the questions will help?)

For myself, I have at times sacrificed what I needed spiritually for what I thought would benefit others in my family. It ended up being that I realized it was most important to me, so I was sacrificing something important to me, for a benefit to them that they really didn't care all that much about. I'd gain more by switching than they lost. 

 

I would say, probably, that my current church is neither helping nor hurting either my mental health or my faith.

My MIL's need is very large right now. Her husband's sudden decline, his behaviour changes, setting him up in long term care, and the fact that this is an end-of-life disease has her really leaning into her faith and her faith community. She regularly (before covid 19) got weepy and grateful about the thoughtful, kind, genuine support she receives from the church during the difficult time. They have a very strong role in her ability to cope with the devastation of my FIL's illness. It will be even more important when he passes. It's irreplacable for her.

My faith is important to me, and yes, things are pretty dry for me, and I could use some kind of spiritual building up (I don't even know what that would look like) but mental health struggles are a dime-a-dozen (as you find out once you start revealing yours) and I can make do. I'm not having my world turned upside down like she is.

20 minutes ago, Pen said:

Also, can you discuss this with all or some of  the potentially affected family members ?

ot could be everyone’s feeling like they are doing it to support others, even going to support you and not because it is a personal top choice

No, my MIL is super fragile. Even suggesting that I'm not 100% behind her idealized view of this church would destabilize her and impact our relationship. She wouldn't here nuance. She'd hear, "Bolt doesn't like church anymore." -- and she'd want to know exactly why, then she'd argue the other side, then I'd have to either agree with her or share my own reasoning, then she'd feel beat up and made-to-feel-stupid about her faith. It would be a disaster. Super. Fragile.

If I change, it would have to be, "I'm feeling excited about what's happening at xyz other church, and I think God wants me there. They need me more, etc." -- no hint of criticism or differences right now for her sake.

I don't think that she thinks she is staying for us. She raves about how wonderful everyone is to her.

Edited July 9, 2020 by bolt.

[Pen]

Just now, bolt. said:

I would say, probably, that my current church is neither helping nor hurting either my mental health or my faith.

My MIL's need is very large right now. Her husband's sudden decline, his behaviour changes, setting him up in long term care, and the fact that this is an end-of-life disease has her really leaning into her faith and her faith community. She regularly (before covid 19) got weepy and grateful about the thoughtful, kind, genuine support she receives from the church during the difficult time. They have a very strong role in her ability to cope with the devastation of my FIL's illness. It will be even more important when he passes. It's irreplacable for her.

My faith is important to me, and yes, things are pretty dry for me, and I could use some kind of spiritual building up (I don't even know what that would look like) but mental health struggles are a dime-a-dozen (as you find out once you start revealing yours) and I can make do. I'm not having my world turned upside down.

No, my MIL is super fragile. Even suggesting that I'm not 100% behind her idealized view of this church would destabilize her and impact our relationship. She wouldn't here nuance. She'd hear, "Bolt doesn't like church anymore." -- and she'd want to know exactly why, then she'd argue the other side, then I'd have to either agree with her or share my own reasoning, then she'd feel beat up and made-to-feel-stupid about her faith. It would be a disaster. Super. Fragile.

 

If that’s true, I’d stay with current church at least for regular worship during this super fragile period. 

Check out the other church yourself and if there is real excitement for you go with what you put below: 

 

Just now, bolt. said:

If I change, it would have to be, "I'm feeling excited about what's happening at xyz other church, and I think God wants me there. They need me more, etc." -- no hint of criticism or differences right now for her sake.

I don't think that she thinks she is staying for us. She raves about how wonderful everyone is to her.

At least Indirectly

that’s probably important to your own well being too.

[ktgrok]

Ok, so I'd stick with MIL unless she's the type not to care if you go with her or not. But I'd try to go to something, anything, at the other one, about twice a month, and just say you came across the program/sermons/something online during the pandemic, and they really just met a need in you where you are right now, so you want to do that in addition to normal church stuff. 

Later, at some point, it may then feel natural to start goign there more, as you make friends, etc and it won't look like rejection so much to MIL, more just a natural process. OR, you may decide you don't like it there as much after all. 

 

Edited July 9, 2020 by Ktgrok

[Shoeless]

2 hours ago, bolt. said:

Yeah, it looks like that. Would a new church really want a non-sunday non-member just to start coming (after covid 19) to a midweek offering? Do you think so?

 

I think you could reach out to a potential new church, and see if they are amenable to you coming right now and what kind of services they are offering.  You could find out what they are doing regarding social distancing and masks. 

[almondbutterandjelly]

We switched churches in January, after belonging to our former church for 16 years.  I believe God is behind these kinds of promptings.  I think it is important to explore.  Sometimes God leads you right back to your original church, and sometimes God leads you somewhere else.  It's your journey.  How long you can postpone it for others is up to you, but I don't think the urge to explore other churches will go away until you do so.  

We are very happy with our new church and truly feel like it is where God wants us to be.  Best wishes whatever you decide.

[katilac]

If Covid were not in play, I'd probably just suggest adding another church service for yourself if feasible. But I say that coming from a Catholic background in a Catholic area; within a very short drive , I would have at least two time choices on Saturday evenings, and at least six on Sundays throughout the day. Even daily mass would have two time choices. A lot of the other denominations or non-denominational churches around here are all at 10 am on Sunday, I think because a lot of them are longer than the typical Catholic hour and may also have other activities afterward. 

Because Covid is in play, I'd probably be reluctant to add more indoor time with a new group. But you could still be checking out websites, streaming services, and youtube videos.