Advice for 8th grade

[EKT]

Hi all! (I just posted this in Julie Bogart's Homeschool Alliance forums, but I figured I'd post here, too. Would love to get a range of perspectives.) 

Like most everyone, I'm wrapping up this homeschool year and am in the midst of planning for next year. We've been homeschooling from the very beginning, so I typically love the planning stage! But now that my oldest is about to enter 8th grade, I'm feeling a bit thrown. I have a clear picture of what we will do for several subjects, but I'm getting stuck on things like science. Part of me feels like 8th grade is the last year we are truly "free" as homeschoolers. (While my husband and I are open to many paths for our children after high school, our default assumption is that we are preparing our girls--currently ages 10 and 13--for a college education.) So, I know that once my oldest hits 9th grade in another year, a huge portion of our homeschool academics will be shaped/bound by college prep requirements (that is, doing x years of specific sciences, x years of foreign language, etc.). So part of me just wants to enjoy this last year and do more free-flowing interest-led work while we still can. That is, things that can "count" as science for legal purposes, but that aren't super school-y, if that makes sense. (For instance, off the top of my head, I'm fantasizing about something like a year-long nature study with lots of art involved, or something similarly "feel-good.") But the other part of me suspects that in order to properly prepare my daughter for high-school level science, I should do the "smart" thing and do a typical, formal science curriculum with lab sheets and such (like Elemental Science, which I do like) for her upcoming 8th grade year. (We've definitely done some of this type of formal science thus far--my girls are familiar, for example, with the very basics of the scientific method. But I've not yet felt obligated to complete an entire science curriculum cover-to-cover. It's more something we've dabbled in up to now. We've mostly used living books and outside classes and co-op experiences, etc. to cover science thus far.) 

In a nutshell, I'm torn. I want my daughter to be well-prepared for high-school level work. I don't want to fail her. But I also know that this is the last of her early years before homeschooling gets Capital-S Serious, so I'm inclined to indulge in that freedom while we still have it. (Of course I still intend to be creative with our high school homeschooling! But...I think we can all agree high school is a different animal.) 

I guess I would love to hear advice from those of you who have been here before. If you have/had kids in high school, and you can look back on middle school, how do you feel about your choices? Do you wish you had been more rigorous in middle school? Do you wish you had enjoyed your freedom more and done more delight-directed work? Other things I haven't considered?

Thank you in advance for sharing your wisdom! 

[Miss Tick]

We outsourced Biology 1 for 8th grade. The previous few years had been more flexible, but I knew I wouldn't be successful pulling together science and Rah-Rahing everyone along the path along with the other classes I was leading and keeping things moving for my youngest dd. It was really successful and they liked the class enough to request Bio 2 this past year.

That said, if you are up for science, year-long nature study with art sounds very cool!, I think you are right that this is a great time to do that. High school science will start from scratch and not assume previous topic coverage so you don't need to be doing prerequisites. Just keep math moving along and keep her interested in learning and not negative about science. So, if you are all onboard I say go for it!

[Lori D.]

3 hours ago, EKT said:

... Part of me feels like 8th grade is the last year we are truly "free" as homeschoolers... I'm fantasizing about something like a year-long nature study with lots of art involved... But the other part of me suspects that in order to properly prepare my daughter for high-school level science, I should do the "smart" thing and do a typical, formal science curriculum with lab sheets and such (like Elemental Science, which I do like) for her upcoming 8th grade year...

...I'm torn. I want my daughter to be well-prepared for high-school level work. I don't want to fail her. But I also know that this is the last of her early years before homeschooling gets Capital-S Serious...

Go for it! Do the Science topics and projects and materials that interest you and your student! 😄 

Also, your science doesn't have to be "all or nothing". You can include just a few lab reports next year as transition/practice. Or, consider getting involved with your local or regional Science Fair and let some of your Science be a longer-term project with data collection and analysis and write-up. By doing it with your local or regional Science Fair group, you'll get plenty of support for how to do the formal side of the Science as prep for high school Science -- and because you're doing it with a group, it can be a lot of fun! 😄 

And just to reassure you, Science can be very flexible in high school -- most colleges accept any Science credit, and only a very few colleges require Biology and/or Chemistry to have been done in high school in order to meet their admission requirements. So you still will have a lot of freedom for choice of Science subjects, as well as the WAY in which you accomplish your Science credits in high school. For example, someone on these boards encouraged a student's interest by putting together a credit in Ornithology (study of birds) through an online course, various books/resources, and volunteer work the student did weekly at the local zoo (or maybe bird sanctuary?).

What is your rising 8th grader interested in Science-wise? Going with what she's interested in naturally helps a student "go deep", which is some of the best prep there is for high school or college studies.

 

3 hours ago, EKT said:

... I guess I would love to hear advice from those of you who have been here before. If you have/had kids in high school, and you can look back on middle school, how do you feel about your choices? ...

We made our own Science up through 8th grade (living books, documentaries/science shows, hands-on activities, close observation of nature, etc.). No regrets. Very enjoyable. And no difficulties with high school Science as a result.

In 7th/8th grades we did a few TOPS units and I had DSs writing out answers to the task cards, which was a gentle transition into writing labs in high school. Side note: in high school, while we enjoyed doing a lot of hands-on activities and labs in high school, we didn't write up all of them as formal lab reports -- just enough each year to understand how to do them and practice that "skill". That seemed to be plenty, as DSs were not asked for a portfolio of work when applying to community college or university, and both did fine with their CC and university science classes and the lab write-ups required for those courses.
 

BEST of luck as you and your student plan for 8th grade Science! Warmest regards, Lori D.

Edited June 13, 2020 by Lori D.

[8filltheheart]

Most of my kids have continued to study science as pure free-flowing exploration of science topics in 8th grade (physics geek ds requested physics in 8th grade and took it for high school credit.)  NONE of my kids has taken a "prepartory" science course in order to take high school science.  High school science starts at the beginning.  Labs are not mythical things that can't be easily learned during a high school science course, etc.  (My rising college freshman never took a single "textbook/standard" high school course prior to 9th grade.  She will be majoring in atmospheric sciences in the fall.  Her very 1st exposure to chemistry was Connie's honors class and she did great. )  Lots of science-oriented kids in our home and very little traditional science before high school (and even some during high school). 

Enjoy 8th grade!!

[PeterPan]

Well first, I reject your whole "high school as S-Super Serious" construct. 

19 hours ago, EKT said:

Do you wish you had enjoyed your freedom more and done more delight-directed work?

Why do you think that STOPS just because you start high school??

It's really not a good transition to try to change completely who you are and how you roll simply because you advance another year or start keeping a transcript. (Some people accrue credits/units in 8th btw). 

Instead, what would help you is to see where you want to be in 9th and WORK BACKWARDS. There is no time more important to do this than now. 

-ability to work independently from a checklist

-ability to meet a delayed deadline

-ability to read a source and discuss it or make a written response to it, even briefly

-ability to type

and so on. 

Whatever you end up doing in 9th (for science, for anything) is going to require some essential skills like this and your choices now can be joyful and be weaving these in.

I would also ask whether you're kind of sentimental or looking at the 10 yo in your methodology instead of your 13 yo, kwim? I don't know your kids, but I'm just saying the mom thing to think about. "Nature walks" are probably a bit below what a 13 yo wants to do. They probably have SOME drive to debate, challenge, queery, respond, be independent, create, SOMETHING. I'm a very sentimental person and I like to hold onto what has worked instead of embracing where the dc is developmentally. I would look for what CHALLENGE the dc needs, where they could experience GROWTH. I don't think it matters so much what material you cover, but it does matter whether they're growing in skills.

There is exceptional value in being able to read materials and take notes or outline. There's exceptional value in boosted reading comprehension, and reading comprehension is 80% prior knowledge. So the *reason* these middle school years for science are filled with "general science" type overview courses is because they're trying to build skills and prior knowledge for reading comprehension. I think it could be a radical jolt if you attempt to go into a 9th grade science text and haven't made some effort to work on those skills. But if you're like oh we're hitting those with xyz, AWESOME, kwim? I'm just saying that's what I'd be looking for. Looking backward from your likely 9th grade choices can tell you that.

The other thing to consider is that those skills can be gotten in ways other than an Apologia General Science text or whatever. They don't preclude your nature walks. It's just saying ok I want to target these skills and I'll weave them in with these resources. I used a lot of the Best of ... writing anthology series. There are videos that are good for this. We used some BJU textbooks and made serious effort at working on reading comprehension, the ability to sit down with a text and outline it and extract and really pay attention and synthesize and ask questions. Pays off RICHLY btw. Those things resulted in my dd having exceptional ACT scores, especially in anything that was straight reading, haha. But did we lose our joy? Nope. Our high school science (and history and literature) was SO delight driven and off the wall it wasn't funny. I took a biology textbook and used the chapter topics to connect to other reading that would engage her better. You can be as out there as you want to be. She got credits for comics studies, history of costuming, all sorts of things. But I pinned it down with really basic skills like the ones I listed about (working from a checklist, meeting delayed deadlines, responding to sources with critical thought, etc.).

So I would suggest thinking about what you want this to look like for 9th and working backwards. Make sure you're stretching her and not getting in a rut. She's going to start to pull away from her younger sibling and you want to see that start to happen.

[2_girls_mommy]

12 hours ago, Plum said:

Well I’m planning a Natural Hazards course based around a college textbook I found which uses some of the actual requirements from the college course. It’s an entry level geology course. I’m including FEMA  emergency planning along with some of their free courses, CPR training, bleed control, and first aid certification. So not your average 9th grade science course.

Some other options I’ve come up with since I have one squeamish and one that wants to be a nurse is field studies for him rather than labs. Tracking data and statistics over time while mastering excel is another option. 
 

If you Google “fields of biology” or any other generic science, you’ll find some really interesting topics that the kids might want to deep dive in and enjoy their science year. It can still be categorized as biology. They can learn the basics along the way. I mean, if colleges can get hi of remedial courses and place kids straight into entry courses with the expectation they will learn along the way,  why can’t you expect to be able to do that as well? KWIM? 

Yes, yes, yes! My DD did a biology year this year. She did use a course that had videos and readings assigned, but we did our own labs and fieldwork on things that followed our other interests and studies ( some year long gitl scout badges, co-op's year long focus and activities, etc., Things that also went with our history.) Lots of art and notebooking included in her research and daily work. We did her labwork and fieldwork and research on topics we chose to go deep on.

I just graduated my odd. She did do textbooky courses and typical labwork in co-op classes because our co-op had it available, and it was a good match for her. 

But I preferred science a different way, and she participated in almost double science because she did what we did at home too- read alouds, fieldwork, nature study, girl scout badge work and clubs, doing projects on topics of interest over a year that were sometimes science topics. With my current DD we've decided to do science at home so that we can do it our way completely. And she'll meet all requirements for her graduation. (We only have one required science year for her left, actually.) 

ETA- and I meant to say that this kid never did a "general science" year before high school. Lots of fun co-op activities. Her classes in co-op were around a theme but were much more hands on, not graded textbook work. I much preferred them to the Apologia style classes that my first did in middle school. We could choose our own work and books for home. 

 

Edited June 14, 2020 by 2_girls_mommy

[....]

9 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Well first, I reject your whole "high school as S-Super Serious" construct. 

Why do you think that STOPS just because you start high school??

It's really not a good transition to try to change completely who you are and how you roll simply because you advance another year or start keeping a transcript. (Some people accrue credits/units in 8th btw). 

 

I can't tell you how much I agree with this.  My oldest is in college and my second oldest is finished in December.  OP, I went from relaxed, interest-based homeschooling and jumping all over the place, learning and teaching everything the kids thought looked interesting to...ugh - high school is "serious" mentality.  I started counting hours, assigning books and schoolwork based on how it would look on their transcripts and college applications.  Trying to do things the "right" way.  I RUINED our homeschool.  Seriously.  Don't do it!  lol. I regret dd18's first year of high school.  I wish I could rewind and do over again.  

[8filltheheart]

10 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Well first, I reject your whole "high school as S-Super Serious" construct. 

 

32 minutes ago, Evanthe said:

 

I can't tell you how much I agree with this.  My oldest is in college and my second oldest is finished in December.  OP, I went from relaxed, interest-based homeschooling and jumping all over the place, learning and teaching everything the kids thought looked interesting to...ugh - high school is "serious" mentality.  I started counting hours, assigning books and schoolwork based on how it would look on their transcripts and college applications.  Trying to do things the "right" way.  I RUINED our homeschool.  Seriously.  Don't do it!  lol. I regret dd18's first year of high school.  I wish I could rewind and do over again.  

I'm going to sorta disagree with you both.  High school is serious in that it is a studen'ts way of preparing themselves for the futures they want for themselves.  Serious and drugdery don't go hand in hand.  Being serious about education also doesn't mean focusing on college applications in 9th grade.  But, if a student wants to pursue ________, there are definitely wrong ways to go about high school.   I have witnessed plenty of poor decisions that have left homeschooled high school students unprepared to cope with the course rigor for the majors they have wanted to pursue. Frustrated and disillusioned, they have changed majors or, unfortunately, even dropped out.  Their struggles to master coursework do go directly back to inadequate high school preparation. 

That said, there are plenty of ways to achieve a strong academic prepartion without losing sight of our homeschooling objectives and not turning into school at home.  I also think students change significantly yr by yr during high school.  My 9th graders are nothing like their 11th/12th grade selves.  A lot of maturing takes place during high school.  WHat my kids are doing in 9th grade does not resemble their final yrs of high school.  You can still focus on moving skills forward one yr at a time without succumbing to the incorrect assumption that all things must be mastered now.

[....]

12 hours ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

 

I'm going to sorta disagree with you both.  High school is serious in that it is a studen'ts way of preparing themselves for the futures they want for themselves.  Serious and drugdery don't go hand in hand.  Being serious about education also doesn't mean focusing on college applications in 9th grade.  But, if a student wants to pursue ________, there are definitely wrong ways to go about high school.   I have witnessed plenty of poor decisions that have left homeschooled high school students unprepared to cope with the course rigor for the majors they have wanted to pursue. Frustrated and disillusioned, they have changed majors or, unfortunately, even dropped out.  Their struggles to master coursework do go directly back to inadequate high school preparation. 

That said, there are plenty of ways to achieve a strong academic prepartion without losing sight of our homeschooling objectives and not turning into school at home.  I also think students change significantly yr by yr during high school.  My 9th graders are nothing like their 11th/12th grade selves.  A lot of maturing takes place during high school.  WHat my kids are doing in 9th grade does not resemble their final yrs of high school.  You can still focus on moving skills forward one yr at a time without succumbing to the incorrect assumption that all things must be mastered now.

 

So, what I didn't realize (several years ago) was that with the relaxed way we homeschooled (before I lost my mind), my kids were getting a really good education.  I let self-doubt take over and that led to things like curriculum hopping (because X curriculum isn't good enough) and driving through curriculum when I knew we were burned out and needed a break.  It also led to me choosing curriculum that didn't match my kid, because it was considered rigorous.  Ugh.  I'm ashamed of myself!  lol.  And I know other parents have gotten into that mindset, too, because I have talked to them.

That's what I'm talking about....not neglecting their education in high school.  Ha!  I don't think I would physically be capable of that.  We school year-round and my eye twitches at the thought of taking a week off.

It's easy for our family to go off the deep end with rigor, because we are all really driven.  DD18's first semester of college and she's already on the Dean's List.  She has a 4.0.  DS17 is a varsity starter on a competitive high school football team and was just nominated for some state award that comes with a scholarship attached to it.  My middle girls spend 15-20 hours a week doing ballet and they're in a small dance company.  This all sounds really wonderful when I type it out, but my point is that I have a tendency to push my kids WAAAAY too hard and my kids spend big chunks of their day in a pressure cooker (of our own creation).  To the point where I regret it now that my kids are older.  And that definitely filtered into our homeschooling.

I failed to teach my kids to chillax.  What's going to happen when dd18 gets a B in a college class?  I'll tell you what, the apocalypse!  lol.  

But, yes, I don't advocate educational neglect or giving the kids a cr@ppy education, because parents let "life get in the way".  I have sorta gone back to my relaxed homeschooling ways.  I don't choose courses based on how it will look on their transcript.  I don't choose curriculum based on how rigorous other people say it is.  I let the kids tell me what they want to study and which curriculum they prefer, etc.  If we need to take a week off, it's ok (in fact, we're taking this week off - yay!!).  I don't assign busy work or extra junk like that.  If we don't finish everything one week, it's ok.  I definitely don't count high school hours (I just kinda "eye" it when we're done).        

   

[....]

12 minutes ago, square_25 said:

This is where context is really important, lol. My kids are much younger, but I think my mindset is similar to yours -- we're very driven over here, and we push our kids pretty hard (while also taking their interests very seriously.) And I'm absolutely failing to teach my kids to chillax, lol, and it's a good reminder that I should probably devote some energy to that ;-). 

On the other hand, I absolutely know people in real life who need reminders that kids are going to need something other than arithmetic in certain college majors :-/. 

Sooo... depending on where someone is coming from, your advice might be more helpful, or 8's advice ;-). Both are good ways to look at the same problem from different angles! 

 

Oh, absolutely!  And, of course 8 can disagree with me.  No!  You may not disagree with me!  😆  lol. (I'm becoming loony from being cooped up in the house too much)

I posted this before, but I've really only met two families (in 12 years) who were actually neglecting their kids' education.  One family ended up just putting the kids back in school, which worked out fine.  I mean, the kids turned out fine.  The oldest starts college in August.  The other family surprised me and suddenly got their butts in gear and the lady really started working with her kids and they actually seem fine, too.  (I assumed they would eventually put their kids in school, too, but they didn't.)  

If I could give any advice for middle school parents getting ready for high school, it would be to concentrate on and make sure writing skills are solid and you're at least finished with pre-algebra, if not Algebra 1.  That's basically it.    

[8filltheheart]

1 hour ago, Evanthe said:

 

Oh, absolutely!  And, of course 8 can disagree with me.  No!  You may not disagree with me!  😆  lol. (I'm becoming loony from being cooped up in the house too much)

I posted this before, but I've really only met two families (in 12 years) who were actually neglecting their kids' education.  One family ended up just putting the kids back in school, which worked out fine.  I mean, the kids turned out fine.  The oldest starts college in August.  The other family surprised me and suddenly got their butts in gear and the lady really started working with her kids and they actually seem fine, too.  (I assumed they would eventually put their kids in school, too, but they didn't.)  

If I could give any advice for middle school parents getting ready for high school, it would be to concentrate on and make sure writing skills are solid and you're at least finished with pre-algebra, if not Algebra 1.  That's basically it.    

To be clear, I'm not thinking in terms of educational neglect.  These kids were definitely receiving educations that their parents thought were appropriate.  The issue has been a disconnect between what they were doing and what was required for their major.  It has been more of a lack of knowing how to shift gears to high school level content and equally appropriate output.   These kids entered college planning on engineering majors and could not handle the work load.  Science and math were killers for them.

[PeterPan]

2 hours ago, square_25 said:

From my perspective as a math person, I see a lot of people who don't do a great job with their kids' math education.

One day I'm talking with my dental hygienist and she's like oh yeah my dd HATES math and doesn't want to do it anymore. I'm like WHAT HAPPENED??? She's like oh, she was doing BC Calc in 10th and now she never wants to do math again.

So yeah, I decided I couldn't do worse than that. 

There is such a range of how things are going to turn out and what is ok. What I don't like to see is the ANXIETY that kicks up artificially when people approach high school and gets them lured into doing crazy things they know, in their saner moments, don't fit their kids. The ps has a wide range of what it offers for math. Kids can DE here starting in 7th and have a jolly BS in math by the end of high school if they want. For real. And some kids are going to do algebra 1 over two years and consumer math and call it quits. 

It's the homeschooling community that has made math this litmus test for excellent homeschooling and "doing a good job" and the other mess we're insecure about rather than MY KID IS A DECENT HUMAN BEING. As your kids get older, these things like *can hold a job* and *has emotional regulation* and * works well with others* and so on become more important than math scores. 

I've gone through passionate stages about a lot of issues over the years. It's all good, do it, sure. Every time I think I've found the issue I'm going to put time in on, another one pops up, lol.

[8filltheheart]

2 hours ago, PeterPan said:

 

It's the homeschooling community that has made math this litmus test for excellent homeschooling and "doing a good job" and the other mess we're insecure about rather than MY KID IS A DECENT HUMAN BEING. As your kids get older, these things like *can hold a job* and *has emotional regulation* and * works well with others* and so on become more important than math scores. 

 

I really don't agree with this paragraph.   I think most people do focus on wanting their children to be decent human beings and keep that in perspective.   Nor do I think that math is some sort of litmus test amg the vast majority of homeschoolers (I think the majority of homeschoolers use TT, Khan, or Power Homeschool).  

But, yes, I do believe that children are not well-served if they are not being provided the education they are capable of achieving to accomplish the goals they have set for themselves **and** they think that they are.  While some kids might be able to go from TT to engineering (strong math students that are capable of making connecting leaps), plenty can't. Conceptual science  with little to no math to engineering science can be done if the student has solid math skills, but again it is only doable with strong students.  Students who could have made it through engineering if they hadn't sunk their first semester due to math and science and give up........those are the students I am talking about.  And, yes, I know too many.  These are parents who are dismissive that a difference exists between different math and science programs.  To them math is math and science is science and the kids are left to themselves with self-teaching/self-grading programs.   (One of these was a family member.  She was adament that math is math and all are equal and watching GC lectures was enough for science.  Computer programming as a major came to an abrupt halt freshman yr of college.) 

And, to those kids.........their math abilities did matter bc they can't/couldn't pursue the career they wanted to.   (And many of these kids are bright kids.  They were just under-educated.)

Holding a job/emotional regulation/works well with others.....to me those things fall under the role of good parenting.  Being a good teacher/good guidance counselor are different roles, but they are equally important if you as a parent assume those roles for your children.

Edited June 15, 2020 by 8FillTheHeart

[kristin0713]

I will just tell you what we did in case this is helpful.  My DD just finished up her 8th grade year and I am very happy with it, no regrets.  

Math -- Finished Pre-Algebra with Christian Light (this was pre-A spread out over 7th-8th grade) -- she will do Algebra 1 with CLE next year

Langauge Arts -- Lantern English courses.  So, so happy with these.  She took Essay Basics, Intro to Poetry, Intro to Creative Writing, and Literature: Fiction.  She is well prepared to grow her essay skills and learn the various forms next year, and write basic academic essays across subject areas.  

History -- From Adam to Us (Notgrass).  This was fine.  It was kind of boring, but gave her a great overview of world history.  She's going to do the Guest Hollow Geography and Cultures class next year for 9th grade.

Science -- We did not aim for rigor here, but interest.  She wanted to do marine biology and zoology so I actually used the Apologia Swimming Creatures and Land Animals texts and beefed them up with extra work and research for 8th grade.  Next year she will do Biology through Experience Biology.  

If I could do all of her middle school over, the only thing I would change is switching her to CLE math way earlier (she started that in 7th grade) and maybe working on essay writing earlier in middle school.  But it really doesn't matter now because she is very well prepared for 9th grade.  I'm glad I gave her a more interest-led science year instead of making her do bio in 8th grade.  

[8filltheheart]

11 minutes ago, Plum said:

Do you know any students that have failed but not gone into engineering? What is the failure rate of all engineering students? What are students chances of succeeding in an engineering program when coming from an average high school?

While it’s easy to point to inadequate preparation on the part of the homeschooler, I have to wonder if there is an inherent problem with the programs themselves if one semester can derail them. 

I also have to worry about students that have no clue what they want to do. How do you adequately prepare them? Assume the most difficult program to hedge your bets? I don’t like that idea. I try to meet my kids where they are while keeping an eye on where they are headed. It’s a constant goal post check. 

These are families and young adults that I am close to, not 2nd hand stories.  For example, one group my older kids were (still are to this day) close friends with constantly told my kids and me that I didn't know what high school expectations were.  They only did school 4 days a week for a few hrs/day and every single Friday they got together to hang out and socialize.  (It caused a lot of friction in my relationship with my oldest b/c I made him do school and held to pretty standard expectations.......my oldest 3 had the slackest high school educations of my all my kids) During my oldest's freshman yr, he actually called me on the phone to thank me for preparing him for college.  He was rooming with best friend from that group who for yrs had wanted to be a mechanical engineer.  That group pretty much cured me of having education conversations with friends.  (The other group is family......equally sad stories.  2 of those girls are active in the responsible homeschooling group and their mom didn't completely neglect their educations......she just didn't put any effort into understanding educational quality and solid expectations.  Her approach completely reminds me of the FB quick fix, fast answer/little effort done, but great!! education conversations.)

FWIW, I absolutely do not believe that the most difficult program out there is the right answer.  I think being involved is the right answer.   All of the scenarios I am familiar with the kids were basically handed stuff to go an do and the parents were thrilled with how independent their kids were and how "advanced" their kids were.   (I cannot tell you how often I was mocked for sitting with my kids and teaching them bc that was holding them back!)

 

[Lecka]

My relative with an inadequate "homeschool" education (I put it in quotes because very, very little was done, and they pulled him from school when he was failing and they didn't want to bother with making sure he got caught up, because they thought the school was just mean/stupid).  

Anyway -- he has just dropped out of community college.  He has the GI Bill so it is paid for.  He has been working as a day laborer and then just got a job at Home Depot.

He is going to go back and do EMT certification, which I think is going to be really good for him.

Yes, it has mattered, he hasn't been able to overcome it, and for entry-level type classes.  

However -- as people have said before, and I think this is true -- he wasn't doing well in public school, and he was not likely to do any better in public school than he did at home, because of a lack of parental support.  

And as people have said before as well, there was some mental illness level of dysfunction.  

My husband and I talked about taking him back when we were in our early 20s, but there was just no way we could do it at the time, we were too young and not stable ourselves.  It's too bad, though.  

[Lecka]

My husband was bounced in and out of various non-accredited Christian "schools," for about 3 years of middle school and high school, but he had been in public school before that, and he graduated from an accredited Christian school.

And it's not even that I think it matters that it is accredited..... he went to one Christian school where they went to a ranch and he did chores for school.  He went to another where they had Fridays off and then on Saturdays worked in the church's bus ministry (where to be fair, my husband learned a lot of leadership skills and did have some positive mentorship in his life), but the rest of the time they really just did not do much as far as school.

He was very behind when he went to the accredited Christian school in his Junior year, and it effected his self-esteem.

And my little BIL had a much more disrupted education than my husband.

Sorry -- there are people doing bad jobs, and it does effect their children as adults.  

Edit:  But ime, I don't think it's something where higher regulation or something would make a difference, because I don't think it is primarily a homeschool issue when parents are not totally stable.  

Edit:  I can't remember how many schools my husband attended, but he had multiple mid-year moves and multiple schools that he attended for a few months before moving again.  They did it while he was in public school and then they did it between the Christian schools, I believe he went to 3 Christian schools in 5 years between 8th grade and when he graduated.  

Edited June 16, 2020 by Lecka

[Susan in TX]

I have graduated seven homeschoolers so far and the one thing I wish I had done was worry less. They all transitioned just fine from our relaxed homeschooling to public high school. One of them just graduated from The University of Dallas with a degree in Biology without having done any formal science before high school.

Susan in TX

[Arcadia]

On 6/13/2020 at 12:33 PM, EKT said:

 

I guess I would love to hear advice from those of you who have been here before. If you have/had kids in high school, and you can look back on middle school, how do you feel about your choices? Do you wish you had been more rigorous in middle school? Do you wish you had enjoyed your freedom more and done more delight-directed work? Other things I haven't considered?

I wish I have splurge more on foreign languages classes and tutoring for German (we could afford but my husband didn’t want to spend). Another area I would have splurge on is debate summer camp. I would also have paid for a writing tutor just to improve their essay writing.
 

My kids are subject accelerated so they did AP science exams in 8th. To them physics and chemistry labs are delight work (biology on the other hand feels like nightmare to them but they did some middle school biology). DS15’s delight directed work would be cooking and baking 🙂

I wish I have pushed recreational sports more because it helps balance the academics part of high school. DS14 has “slowed down” in work speed during shelter in place, since he is being a hermit at home. Thankfully recreational tennis is starting back up for him.

I am planning my teens 2020/21 academic year with COVID in mind. So whatever work has to be suitable for shelter in place.  
 

As for high school, DS15 (going to be 11th grade) has Bs and a C. His GPA is affected but it would work itself out. We couldn’t decide on foreign language in 9th grade so he is doing two years of dual enrollment foreign language to “make up” the foreign language requirement. 
 

My teens have different high school 4 year plans because they are different people. 
 

Have fun with planning 8th grade or just unschool. We had a very relaxing 8th grade, my teens did whatever they like at their own pace for all subjects except for sciences (which they enjoy). Maybe we were too relaxed but since DS15’s 9th grade year was on autopilot due to my rather intensive medical treatments, it was a good thing he had a relaxed 8th grade to take lots of interest led classes and also mess up my kitchen. 
 

Before the shelter in place order, we did whatever outdoor activities my teens wanted to do e.g. wildlife photography, road trips. I am glad we did and we didn’t “procrastinate” on these spontaneous activities. 

[Lecka]

So this is just another comment about a disconnect....... my husband had a conversation with his mother in which she said she thought they were well-prepared in math and she had taken Algebra and knew about decimal numbers, and said she knew about tenths and stuff.

Well, one, she thought that was Algebra.

That is 5th grade math in Common Core, and I am currently doing Saxon 5/4 and working on tenths/hundredths/thousandths.  My daughter is doing 6/5 and going through ten-thousandths.

But there is a big disconnect when I think learning decimal numbers is both not Algebra, but also 4th-5th grade level math (depending on what is being learned), and my MIL who thinks that is a great math education and all anyone needs. 
 

This is a really maddening subject for me to say the least.

To say testing into Pre-Calculus puts people behind in various majors, doesn’t even get into people who have not been taught middle school level math.  It is just not a good situation.  And then I agree — it’s not really what colleges are meant to do.  
 

The thing about my MIL is that on one hand, she doesn’t know what she doesn’t know.  On the other hand, though, she doesn’t want to know, and she does not want to listen to other people.
 

I am also fairly resentful towards people who say “oh their kids are fine.”  Well — that doesn’t make it okay that they are not pursuing what they really want to pursue, due to an inadequate education, just because they are not — what — homeless drug addicts?  That doesn’t make everything okay.  
 

It is such a dirty secret to have, to be someone who is a smart person and wanted to do x, y, z and then couldn’t pass classes at community college.  
 

And I do think most people do make the best of it, and still find a way in life, but I don’t think that makes it okay.  

[....]

17 minutes ago, Lecka said:

This is a really maddening subject for me to say the least.

 

What you keep describing is actual educational neglect.  That's what was mentioned upthread.  I've met probably hundreds of homeschoolers and like I was saying, I've only met two families who weren't working with their kids.  Honestly, I've only met one family who didn't use a math curriculum to teach math (and like I posted, that lady eventually went nuts, bought curriculum, put her kids in outside classes at an enrichment center and the kids are fine).  Those things you mentioned in your post would've been covered in a math curriculum.  I'm sure there are homeschoolers like your MIL out there (not doubting you), but most of the homeschoolers I've met swing in the other direction - pushing their kids way too hard, forking out thousands putting their kids in every class/camp/activity available.  Paying thousands for umbrella school programs, which are completely unnecessary in Texas.    

[Lecka]

Okay, so, what about the need to work?  Where do these hours a day come from?

Two, it’s not so easy to self-educate, when there is no one to ask a question to, and may not be someone to offer encouragement.

Three, major self-esteem issues.  This mature attitude of “it sucks but just spend a couple of years working through it” is true but — the self-esteem issues are so great it’s hard to spend so much time being behind and get over a sense of not being able to do well things that are meant for someone much younger, even if that is natural in learning.  It’s very easy for me to say “it’s normal to find this hard” but a proud adult can fine it hard to dwell in struggling with middle school work so long.  And it can look really overwhelming, too.  
 

Four, probably underdeveloped skills in asking for help without feeling stupid, and overdeveloped skills in hiding not knowing how to do something.

Every person I have met homeschooling has been doing a great job.  Every single one.  
 

The family members (there is a second with a high school dropout from online high school) are not people who ever did anything socially with homeschooling, that I know of, or talked about it with people.  

[Lecka]

Separately, completing Algebra II is a huge step up from shaky arithmetic.  
 

And bored/smart is not the same as “am I stupid?” 
 

I totally agree a lot of people “could” do it.  They could, they are capable!  But barriers are very real and truly difficult to overcome.  And some are logistical, some are self-esteem or “knowing to go to math lab” and “not feeling humiliated to be asking for help in a remedial class” and “knowing they aren’t performing at a high level in a remedial class.”

I assume my little BIL would be ashamed for his fiancé to know he was struggling in community college, and that this was a contributing factor.  She is a college graduate and I doubt she is really aware, of some things, because he isn’t going to bring up things that show him in a poor light.  
 

My husband can be very ashamed also, it is not very easy on him.  He definitely wasn’t getting any messages that he was a g/t kid who just wasn’t applying himself.  He just got messages he was behind and felt stupid.  He had no sense, as a younger person, that he wasn’t stupid, but instead, had missed years of content.  He knew he had missed content, but didn’t think of things that way.  
 

People also get scared of certain classes that they think will be too hard.  
 

Or, drop a class because of logistical reasons, and then feel like — they can’t commit again because they can’t control the logistical issues and might have to drop a class again.  This can get to be where — probably they could take a class again, but they are afraid of having to drop.

I also know someone who had taken several classes and then had a debacle where his books ended up being so expensive and he couldn’t really pay for them, and then he didn’t take any more classes.  
 

Now it’s easy to say — that’s a stupid reason to quit taking classes.  But it caused him a lot of problems and it really soured him on it, because he felt like he could get into the same situation again.  And that’s on top of things being probably more difficult for him anyways for various reasons.  

[Lecka]

But I think the biggest thing is — a sense that — “this is hard for me, but I’m a smart person.”

It’s easy to see people just go — “it’s not for me, I’m not someone that is going to have this work out for me.”  
 

And I think there is a shame from feeling like they will always be behind, too, and have to explain why they are behind.  Which — if someone doesn’t feel ashamed, it’s no big deal.  If someone does feel ashamed, it’s a very big deal.

And people want to feel like they are good at what they are doing, which can be hard when there are so many messages of — “here you are in a remedial class,” or “you have a lot of ground to cover.”

And especially “you should already know this, everyone else learned this a long time ago.”

 

[8filltheheart]

1 hour ago, Plum said:

If you were provided inadequate education, are there not steps you can take to fix it yourself? 

Libraries have free GED and adult classes. There’s workbooks. There’s    free placement exam practice sites.  There’s a lot of ways to catch yourself up. I agree it sucks and it’s unfair. Its also not the end of the world. 

If a kid hasn’t done much school-wise and  one day out of the blue decides they want to be a doctor or an engineer, they can’t possibly expect to be able to go straight down the usual college path with no preparation on their part. Perhaps it’s the expectation that they can go directly into a difficult program without proper prep that derails some of these students. If they change their expectations and are realistic about their capabilities, then they might not feel so derailed that they can never recover.   

Maybe I don’t understand. Maybe I don’t know what I don’t know. I can tell you my experience and why I believe what I do. 

Dh taught himself calculus as he was taking the class in college. He had only ever taken algebra 2 in high school which was years before. He would get to class early and work through the book ahead of class. When he couldn’t figure it out, he’d go to the math lab.  He was one of those bored GATE kids that nearly didn’t graduate high school. Yet when he decided to go to college, he went full press and figured it out. 

My grandmother was the most intelligent person I’ve ever known and she never went to college. Her father told her she couldn’t go because she was legally blind. She read every book from Carl Sagan to Julia Child with the biggest magnifying glass you’ve ever seen. She became a painter, a sculptor and a poet. Everyone loved coming to her house to have long deep conversations.  She was never able to drive herself so she made sure her homes were always within walking distance of a library. 

When someone is determined to learn and is capable of doing so, they will find a way. ❤️

I don't want to completely derail the OP's question which was about 8th grade. B/c for 8th grade, other than math/writing I don't think the what's are as important as the actual doing. 

But, college today is not the same conversation as college yrs ago (not even the same conversation as 10 yrs ago.)  When you have a student who believes they are receiving a solid college prep education enter into college and realize that they are woefully underprepared, you are talking about either paying 10s of thousands of $$s to stay in school and take remedial courses and extending college by 1 to 2 yrs (a very expensive proposition) or dropping out and trying to self-educate or perhaps attend a CC to remediate. (while still adding yrs to college graduation date)  Those are both very hard-to-face realities when you entered college at 18 full of hopes and plans, and ego-crushing when you watch your peers succeed while you fail.

And, no, the fact that the same can happen to kids in public schools doesn't negate the outcome anywhere.  It is inexcusable from any source that is claiming to provide students a solid college prepatory education.   And, for people who have never parented adult children, the long-term impact on familial relationships can be detrimental.  😞  If your adult children perceive you as responsible for their outcome bc you didn't put in the effort in understanding the role you assume and providing them the time/attention/education they deserved........  

 

[Lecka]

My husband always puts it off on me to help the kids with math, too.  Always.

If you look on this board — it is okay for women to say they can’t do math past x level and their husband will do it then.

But how many women come and say “well I can’t do it and neither can my husband.”  I assume that when people come and need something self-teaching and don’t have a way of finding a tutor.

WELL — it’s very possible the husband is ashamed he can’t help himself, and doesn’t want the kids out needing help he should be able to provide. 
 

My husband can be really touchy about things like this, it would probably surprise people a lot, how touchy he can be.  

[8filltheheart]

2 minutes ago, Lecka said:

My husband always puts it off on me to help the kids with math, too.  Always.

If you look on this board — it is okay for women to say they can’t do math past x level and their husband will do it then.

But how many women come and say “well I can’t do it and neither can my husband.”  I assume that when people come and need something self-teaching and don’t have a way of finding a tutor.

WELL — it’s very possible the husband is ashamed he can’t help himself, and doesn’t want the kids out needing help he should be able to provide. 
 

My husband can be really touchy about things like this, it would probably surprise people a lot, how touchy he can be.  

Well, to be honest, my dh is an engineer, but he hasn't done a lot of the math my kids are doing in decades.  It is easier for me (and I am not very strong in math at the upper levels) to figure out how to help them than for them to ask him (bc he is so far removed from the math they are doing that he wouldn't have a clue the base they are working from.)  

[Lecka]

Well, it is not that for my husband.  But I can see that!  
 

My husband says I am a good teacher, too.  
 

It is too bad, as far as family relationships, that we do feel a lack of respect for my ILs.

And, my ILs I think felt justified with my husband and SIL — “things worked out for you guys.”  I don’t think they feel like that with little BIL.  

They definitely didn’t think he would drop out of community college.  He has gone from aiming at a job with a high salary, to probably getting a job with a much lower salary.  He has a fiancé who also expected him to be pursuing a job with a high salary.

I DO think things are going to work out for them, but there is no way not to find it to be a disappointment.

 

[8filltheheart]

4 minutes ago, Plum said:

1) Dh worked full-time during the day with as a life coach for a group of severely developmentally disabled adults and then he went to school full time at night. He made it work. Are there no examples of people working during the day and going to school at night?

2) I go straight to YouTube when I don't know how to do something. Khan Academy has a place for questions. No one has to know what age you are on KA. All libraries have free computers and wifi reaching the parking lot. 

 3) I agree self-esteem is an issue. My grandmother never felt smart enough despite overcompensating. 

I know I'm coming off stubborn and probably naive, perhaps it's my stoic nature, but I really do believe that it's time to suck it up when things get hard. These are all my personal experiences within my own family. Dh had no family to support him. His mom died when he was 18 and his father left when he was 3. He had me for support and that was it. I was also busy with my own work and school. Even though we lived together, we barely saw each other for a couple of years. We both made it work. 

Not covering middle school math when someone is capable of much more is a tragedy. Educational neglect whether through homeschooling or through social promotion is a problem I cannot fix.

What I must think I can fix, because I seem to always end up in this conversation, is giving people permission to not force their kids to do things they are not ready for simply because it's what outside forces are saying is required. I read posts that make it sound like you are a failure if you don't plan to get your kids to calculus and I want to push back. There's plenty of majors that don't require calculus. If I know what they are going to major in, if we have created a plan together, then we are both accountable for that decision. It's not just me up in my tower telling my kids what they will and will not learn. There's a lot of collaborative research and thought going into this.

I'm being told it's practically impossible to recover from an adequate but "behind" education. No, it's difficult especially when ego is involved, but it's not practically impossible. Not even complete educational neglect is impossible to overcome. People have done it and therefore it is not impossible. 

To me, the problem in 8's post was really both the parent and the student weren't being realistic in their expectations and planning. These students must have been educated well enough to be accepted into a college engineering program. It reminds me of parents in public schools with severe grade inflation. They believe their kids are geniuses because they are getting straight As in a competitive college prep school while the reality is no one fails and everything can be retaken to boost their grade. How involved were they in their kids high school? To be surprised means they did not know or did not want to see. 

How do you homeschool and not be aware of what your kid is capable of? What their strengths and weaknesses are? How do you then approve to pay for college with the expectation that everything will be just fine? 

I had to sit with my oldest for the first two weeks of 9th grade online school to make sure he had a system to track meetings and when a paper was due. I knew he needed support in time management until he got the hang of it. By senior year, I didn't have to do much of anything. I helped him plan his schedule, but that was about it.

Being solely academic is not the reason I homeschool and I believe that is the fundamental difference I'm seeing here. My end goal is not solely college. College is a possibility, but not the only possibility. I know it's hard for some to see other paths, but they are there. 

I'm not sure how familiar you are with the cost of college, but it is next to impossible for 18 yr olds to pay their own way through college without familial support.  The maximum loan a freshman can take is $5500.  I just googled UNR's estimated cost for attendance when living at home with parents and it is $19,000. https://www.unr.edu/financial-aid/costs/undergraduate   Working during the day and taking classes at night means that the desired classes have to be offered at night.  (A lot of classes are only offered at 1 or 2 times and sometimes they are only offered in very strict course sequences so fall only/spring only.  Get off track and you have to wait a yr for the course to be offered again.)  These are pretty significant hurdles. Insurmountable? No.  But, not easily dismissible, either. 

In terms of the rest of the bolded, I haven't seen any of those pts being made????  I haven't seen anyone state that all students need to take calculus or that students should be pushed beyond their level of ability or that all students need to be college bound.   I don't believe any of those to be true statements.  

[PeterPan]

27 minutes ago, Plum said:

I'm being told it's practically impossible to recover from an adequate but "behind" education.

Not only that, but adult learners in college programs typically have *forgotten* much of what they knew before. When I was in high school I was fielding pre-algebra and algebra 1 questions from my aunt who was going back to college to get a degree in accounting and change her place in life. She eventually got it!! She would have been late 30s, early 40s at the time of those questions and I think it was a fair number of years later before she completed the degree, as she was taking classes part time while working her way through. There are definitely services and supports, options to get people where they're trying to go if they have the ability and the motivation. 

[Lecka]

I really don’t disagree with other points.

It is more that I am close to people who have had real barriers and that is where I have more experience.

I am very frustrated about my little BIL right now. And — of course he is an adult.  Of course he could just put his life on hold for years instead of looking for another path that can allow him to further his life right now.  Of course he doesn’t want it badly enough to make the trade-offs and go through the difficulty.

That doesn’t take away from the choices my ILs made, though.  And that doesn’t make the barriers not exist, just because there are ways to overcome them.  
 

I think too, they always had an attitude that they were doing something better than the stupid old public school.  In their case — well, they didn’t do better.  And then it is something for an adult to realize — all those years of being told they are better off than if they had gone to public school, it was just a pipe dream the parents had, they would have been much better off to just go to public school.

I realize this is not the situation for everyone!  Really I realize this!

But this is the situation that I am close to on a personal level, and it is pretty galling.  
 

It makes so many things be part of a shaky framework that turned out not to be what was promised.  It makes so many things be questioned.  

[Lecka]

This is wrt 8’s situation.

I feel like — I have some idea what it would be like to grow up hearing about how 8 doesn’t know what she is doing.

 

Then you grow up and realize — 8 knew what she was doing.  Your own parents didn’t know what they were doing.  
 

It is not very nice!

It calls more into question than just educational decisions.

It is all kinds of things that were part of being raised in a certain way, and things that were taught or modeled.  
 

I think there is a high level of disillusionment. 

And a side comment, I don’t think teens can always know they are behind.  Maybe they don’t have a way to compare themselves to others.  Maybe they are in an environment where the level is low, too low really, and they just don’t know it.  Of course they “should” know but it can be asking a lot to seek that information out when they are being told other things at home.  Or if it just doesn’t come up, because they think they are doing everything the way they should.  

[8filltheheart]

14 minutes ago, Plum said:

Or I could use the state's millennium scholarship and get a significant discount on tuition for either the universities, state college or community colleges. I'd say it would be easier here to get an evening into night job and go to school during the day. There's also dual enrollment here. Many students enroll at the U and the CC for classes they couldn't get or to save money. But that's not the point. 

My point is that we don't have to do things on a specific timetable. I'd love to change the system that says freshman year must begin the year after high school or you lose out on scholarships. Scholarships are only for those that know exactly what they want to do at age 17. Or that you miss a beat in a program and your entire college path can get derailed. Might as well quit now. No pressure kids. Or that remedial classes don't count. Sorry ESL. Unfortunately, we have to live within the system we are given. But we don't necessarily have to follow their rules. It might take a few years longer, but wouldn't your kids enjoy college a lot more without the pressure of ensuring they enroll in the right classes every semester or be faced with impending doom? Wouldn't they enjoy their college experience if they could dabble in some classes outside of their major without worrying about GPA, destroying their timetable or additional tuition? Everyone is so uptight about college because they've created this culture that says everyone must conform to their provided plans. 

As homeschoolers that create our own courses, I would want that self-directed creative outside the box thinking to continue on through college. So much of that gets lost along the way. 

To the bolded, I'm glad to hear that. I may be a tad defensive on this in case you didn't notice. ☺️

And now, I really must get to work. I need to think about this for awhile. 

We define significant differently.  I looked up the millenium scholarship: 

Quote

 

Full-time enrollment in a minimum of 12 credits of coursework is required. Remedial coursework may be included in the 12 credit requirement. However, the scholarship cannot pay the fees for remedial coursework.

The amount will vary based on enrollment from a minimum of $960 per semester for 12 credits up to $1,200 for enrollment in credits or more.

 

DE seems counter to the entire conversation.  DE would imply that students are taking courses geared toward appropriate college prep.  Taking courses at CC is another path and then transferring, but transfer students have other hurdles (way outside the scope of what this poor thread has degenerated into.........not sure why.  If people think all options are equally good for any and every student and parents don't have a responsibility to act as an appropriate guidance counselor and teacher if they take on the role of homeschooling, spending time typing any response is 100% wasted.)

[Arcadia]

15 minutes ago, square_25 said:

. And even if they could have taught themselves that (or found someone to teach them), and if they could have gotten over their fear of math, it would have taken them years to catch up, because that's how our brains are -- they don't catch on to concepts instantly, they need practice. 

... That's all I could do, because going back to what they were weak on would have required going back 5+ years. 

I tutored a 12th grade girl (public school) at a as good as free rate and got her from failing the equivalent of AP calculus AB to passing with a C on the Cambridge exam. It took many longer than 3hr tutoring sessions, I was leaving her home at 11pm sometimes to take a cab back to university dorm. It was a slog and much easier when being a full time student with food and shelter provided. 

8 minutes ago, Lecka said:

And a side comment, I don’t think teens can always know they are behind.  Maybe they don’t have a way to compare themselves to others. .  

My teens keep thinking they are behind because their social circle has plenty of public and private school “overachievers”.

My MIL is still very envious of the education my paternal and maternal aunts received. My MIL didn’t get to finish elementary school (1st to 6th grade), it wasn’t compulsory during her time. My aunts that are older than her were allowed to go to school until end of middle school (10th grade) and they decided they didn’t want to go to high school or community college. 
 

As for the OP, even public high school students can customize their four year plan somewhat. They don’t get identical four year plans, there is flexibility there. The larger the high school the more choices of subjects I guess. I have always lived in densely populated areas by choice.  Continue concentrating/emphasizing on the 3Rs and work ethic for 8th grade and enjoy the year. 

[EKS]

18 hours ago, Plum said:

Do you know any students that have failed but not gone into engineering? What is the failure rate of all engineering students? What are students chances of succeeding in an engineering program when coming from an average high school?

While it’s easy to point to inadequate preparation on the part of the homeschooler, I have to wonder if there is an inherent problem with the programs themselves if one semester can derail them. 

I've seen somewhere (multiple somewheres, actually) that it is extremely common to start college as an engineering major and then switch to something less intense.  ETA: Here is an article that talks about this.

I don't think it's a problem with the programs.  It think it's just really, really hard and not everyone is cut out for it.  It takes a particular constellation of skills, personality traits, and interests to be successful in engineering majors in college.  

Edited June 16, 2020 by EKS

[EKS]

2 minutes ago, square_25 said:

But it’s a whole lot easier without having to play catch up. 

Yes, I agree.  But my point was that dropping out of engineering programs is a problem across the board, not just with homeschoolers.  The article I linked talks about the preparedness issue as well as the other things that come into play for college success in engineering.

[daijobu]

1 hour ago, square_25 said:

 

Again, DH and I have taught at a variety of prestigious schools. The vast majority of the kids we taught weren't homeschooled, so I can't speak to that -- I can only speak to how low levels of preparation wind up looking in the classroom. What being unprepared looks like is not being able to do fraction calculations, or even if you're able to shakily do them with numbers, having no idea where any of the expressions come from and being absolutely unable to do them with algebraic expressions. What being unprepared looks like is not really understanding what a variable means or how you could reason with a variable. What being unprepared looks like is never having understood what a function is, or not knowing the relationship between a function and its graph. 

 

 

Are you talking about college or private high schools?  (Did you find this at Stanford?)  

[daijobu]

Here's an article that's relevant to this conversation:  https://www.stanforddaily.com/2019/02/21/students-educators-discuss-challenges-in-transitioning-to-stanford-from-under-resourced-schools/

It's about Stanford undergraduates who were admitted from what they now call "under-resourced schools" who arrive unprepared for the academics and can't continue in their intended fields.  When I was in college, this sort of thing was swept under the rug.  Students would breezily say they arrived intending to be premed or study engineering, but fell in love with some other humanities field instead.  

Now students are angry.  Though weirdly, they direct their anger at Stanford, rather than at their high schools that provided poor preparation:

 

Despite this support, some students said they also felt unprepared for the rigor of Stanford classes, compared to students who had experience in college-level subjects during high school. Students specifically criticized courses such as the introductory chemistry series.

 

“It just seemed like everyone else around me but me had some kind of rigorous curriculum that helped them, that gave them an advantage when taking the class,” Adebagbo said.

To these students, the professors also appeared to be gearing their classes more toward students who did have some background in the subject.

“I felt like my professors automatically assumed that their students had a sufficient background to at least understand the concepts that they were presenting in the class,” Cusic said.

[daijobu]

Another relevant quote:

Adebagbo grew up in Boston, and went to a school where only 26 students were part of her graduating class. She does not put her high school at fault for her difficult transition at Stanford.

“There’s only so much you can expect from a fairly new school,” she said. “So I think a lot of my anger [is] toward Stanford — you knew who I was when you accepted me. You knew the kind of high school I went to. You knew the environment I was coming from.”

 

I think students harbor affection for their alma maters, and it's difficult to direct criticism where it deserves to be placed.  

Edited June 16, 2020 by daijobu

[daijobu]

2 minutes ago, square_25 said:

 

ETA: I’ll probably delete this later.

 

Yeah, IMO gold medal winner means you are clearly qualified.  And that is interesting info about the other 2 students who failed out.  What was their level of preparation?  

[Arcadia]

14 minutes ago, daijobu said:

Another relevant quote:

Adebagbo grew up in Boston, and went to a school where only 26 students were part of her graduating class. She does not put her high school at fault for her difficult transition at Stanford.

“There’s only so much you can expect from a fairly new school,” she said. “So I think a lot of my anger [is] toward Stanford — you knew who I was when you accepted me. You knew the kind of high school I went to. You knew the environment I was coming from.”

 

I think students harbor affection for their alma maters, and it's difficult to direct criticism where it deserves to be placed.  

I think Adebagbo is justified in her anger with Stanford (or any other extremely selective colleges). Her high school did the best they could. Stanford accepted her knowing that. 

10 minutes ago, square_25 said:

To be fair, if Stanford is going to admit students with weaker backgrounds, it ought to give them the tools to succeed. It’s not enough to just let them in.

Agreed.

[daijobu]

4 minutes ago, square_25 said:

 

Both the other girls also struggled to pass the first year qualifying exams — you take first year courses, then you have a hard and creative test at the end. If you fail at the end of the year, you can retake them at the end of the summer, and if you fail then, you won’t get your doctorate (although you may get a Masters.) So there were definitely issues not only related to creativity but also related to level of preparation.

 

 

Do you think the math faculty was under pressure to admit more women to the PhD program?  How can we do better?  (I also have a neighbor whose daughter was just admitted to the UC Berkeley math PhD program from Wellesley undergrad.)  

[Arcadia]

27 minutes ago, daijobu said:

 

Do you think the math faculty was under pressure to admit more women to the PhD program?  How can we do better?  (I also have a neighbor whose daughter was just admitted to the UC Berkeley math PhD program from Wellesley undergrad.)  

 

23 minutes ago, square_25 said:

Yes, absolutely, there's a ton of pressure. And there still is -- I'm no longer in academia, but DH is, and I can vouch for this one. It's a hard problem. 

Work/jobs too. I am happy my girlfriend landed a job at one of the FAANG but there was pressure to hire more females with social media harping on gender ratios.

My alma mater admitted strictly by Cambridge exam scores. However if there was a toss up between a male and female with the same composite scores for the last vacancy to engineering school, the female would get the last slot. Chemical engineering has more females than males. Electrical engineering has about even. Civil engineering was about 25% females. Mechanical engineering had the least females.

[daijobu]

16 minutes ago, square_25 said:

In terms of doing better... in what sense? Is the question how society can do better, or how Stanford can do better?

 

Mostly Stanford, but I'm open to any solutions to any problems discussed here.  

[Arcadia]

24 minutes ago, square_25 said:

Well, the first day of class, the instructor assumed all the kids had seen matrices and matrix multiplication. So she was incredibly lost and quickly dropped the class. And this was the intro class... there was nothing lower to take. 

Now, that seems ridiculous to me. I've taught linear algebra lots of times, and I would never assume that level of a starting student. It's simply not fair in a first class. And it sounds like linear algebra isn't the only place this kind of thing happens... 

Matrixes is in algebra 2 so not surprised since linear algebra is usually taken after calculus BC or Calc 2.

Holt algebra 2 https://www.humbleisd.net/cms/lib2/TX01001414/Centricity/ModuleInstance/18684/Ch_4-2_reteach.pdf

Khan

https://www.khanacademy.org/math/algebra-home/alg-matrices

 

[Lecka]

As far as the Stanford student — I think it is a bait and switch.  You are told Stanford is the best choice for you.  But, it wasn’t.  You would have been better off somewhere else where there could be more support for a less-prepared student.

Stanford knew that.  
 

They just don’t care or just want to look good.  Or they think they are doing something good, that has an unintended effect.

So — as far as blaming the high school, I think it sounds like she thinks she could have been much worse off in high school than she was.  But she also could have been better off in college.  And to be better off in high school would have meant changing 1,000 things.  To be better off in college would have just meant going to a different college, which was a real option available that she could have chosen if she had known.  
 

Edit:  she also had many choices available for college.  She probably did not have very many good choices before, for reasons that are a lot more complicated than just “blaming the high school.”  I am sure she would have gone to a better high school if it had been possible!  But it was possible for her to go to a better-for college!!!!!

Edited June 16, 2020 by Lecka

[Arcadia]

27 minutes ago, square_25 said:

Well, it still seems like a silly way to start. There's really NO reason to not start with vectors and work up to matrices in the usual way. Even if kids have seen it, they have probably forgotten it, since it's not an integral part of the curriculum. 

I've taught linear algebra in a few places, and I've never seen it start like that. Neither has DH. We were both pretty sorry for my sister. 

For my DS15’s dual enrollment math class at a community college, he has readings to do before class, even for the first lesson in a math course. There were times when he was reading the syllabus and textbook an hour before the first lesson but that’s on him, not the lecturer who has put up the materials several days before. 

[Lecka]

Well, you know, someone has to get shunted into the humanities at a school like Stanford, where a lot of people want to go there for computer science.  

That is too cynical!

But it is okay with them to “be” Stanford and bring in underprepared students and go “it’s too bad” when they can’t, I don’t know, teach themselves from Khan Academy or something.  
 

It’s true it’s not Stanford’s fault they are underprepared or that they don’t offer suitable classes.

And it’s nice to want to give people a chance.

But it’s not exactly a “real” chance if they are not set up for success.  

I think it is probably very well-meaning that it happens, and appropriate for students to share that there are unintended consequences.  

[Miss Tick]

Also let's not forget that particularly public universities are under (justified) financial pressure from the state to admit a diverse population and get them graduated in 4 years. Shifting students into lower level math classes will mess with the graduation time in addition to likely costing the students additional money since math classes may be prerequisites for other classes. Additionally, the need for a lower level class is not apparent until the student struggled with a standard class.

I think high schools are the problem in cases like this.

[daijobu]

1 hour ago, Lecka said:

As far as the Stanford student — I think it is a bait and switch.  You are told Stanford is the best choice for you.  But, it wasn’t.  You would have been better off somewhere else where there could be more support for a less-prepared student.

Stanford knew that.  
 

They just don’t care or just want to look good.  Or they think they are doing something good, that has an unintended effect.

So — as far as blaming the high school, I think it sounds like she thinks she could have been much worse off in high school than she was.  But she also could have been better off in college.  And to be better off in high school would have meant changing 1,000 things.  To be better off in college would have just meant going to a different college, which was a real option available that she could have chosen if she had known.  
 

Edit:  she also had many choices available for college.  She probably did not have very many good choices before, for reasons that are a lot more complicated than just “blaming the high school.”  I am sure she would have gone to a better high school if it had been possible!  But it was possible for her to go to a better-for college!!!!!

 

Thank you, @Lecka and @Arcadia for setting me straight on this point.  I completely failed to see this point of view when I read the article.