Some things to consider when discussing the death of a black man or COVID

[Ottakee]

This was taken from a Pastor in Cadillac, MI with permission.

 

Murder. Riots. Racism.  💔
#GeorgeFloyd

What can I do? What can I say? 

I copied these thoughts from a fellow pastor and his wife - I think they are helpful. 

1) Be slow to speak and quick to listen.

2) The cry of injustice is to be taken seriously, even if you might not initially believe or understand that person's reality.

3) You will want to hear a simple narrative that explains everything. The true story is always more complex. So are the solutions.

4) Everyone is predisposed to react to news events one way or another. Hold your initial judgments loosely and be willing to be corrected.

5) Never assume you know what it's like living in someone else's shoes just because you watch the news or read a few articles. You will never truly know what it's like while watching from afar.

6) The media tends to show you the most dramatic images and videos. They are real, but they do not represent the entire situation.

7) The loudest and most polarizing voices will get all the attention in the coming days. Never forget that there are countless perspectives in between the two extremes. Be intentionally curious and have ears to hear the quieter and more nuanced voices.

😎 Some voices will make you feel like you must choose between two sides. They will tell you that you must back your chosen side to no end, and that self-critique of your chosen side is a sign of disloyalty. They will also tell you that you must demonize the other side and that there's nothing they can or will ever do that is right. If you follow these voices, you will be led down a path of fear and hate that you may never return from.

9) You don't need to voice an opinion, and there are many other ways to care and respond to tragedy than a post on social media.

10) If and when you voice an opinion, consider how to speak in such a way that respectfully interacts with those who might disagree with you. Ask not, "How can I put down my opponent?" but rather, "How can I understand and converse with people who think differently than me in a winsome way?" If you're just preaching to people who agree with you, you've accomplished nothing of value and have only driven the wedge deeper between you and the other side.

[Pen]

May I send a copy to someone I know irl ?

 

[Ottakee]

Just now, Pen said:

May I send a copy to someone I know irl ?

 

Yes, just give attribute to a pastor in Cadillac, MI 

[Anne]

17 minutes ago, StellaM said:

Lost me at winsome. 

That is a peculiar adjective to apply to women's speech, imo.

I must say that I entirely disagree with that assessment - anyone, of any gender, can make an argument winsomely or — the reverse.  I believe each of us should strive to make our arguments winsomely.

Anne

[Ausmumof3]

1 hour ago, StellaM said:

Lost me at winsome. 

That is a peculiar adjective to apply to women's speech, imo.

Yeah I wondered about that choice of words but I assume it’s maybe something that has a different meaning to me here.

[Ausmumof3]

1 hour ago, Anne said:

I must say that I entirely disagree with that assessment - anyone, of any gender, can make an argument winsomely or — the reverse.  I believe each of us should strive to make our arguments winsomely.

Anne

To me it has a connotation of kind of appealing innocence or even bordering on flirtatious if you know what I mean.  Definitely a connotation of using cuteness or whatever to get your point across rather than logic.  I didn’t want to bother with it because the rest of the advice was good but seeing it’s been said I just want to say it was the one discordant note here.  I’m going to assume it’s a location based difference.

Edited May 31, 2020 by Ausmumof3

[Ausmumof3]

Merriam Webster:

“generally pleasing and engaging often because of a childlike charm and innocence”

see to me this is a no.  We can talk like adults and use adult logic we don’t need to use charm.

[Pen]

ADJECTIVE

charming; winning; engaging

 

Collins English Dictionary. Copyright © HarperCollins Publishers

 

I don’t so much like the “charming” part, but I have also seen “gracious” as a synonym, and “engaging” is good. 

[Pen]

47 minutes ago, StellaM said:

I think expecting graciousness is all well and good when you are well out of a situation, and discussing from afar, but to me, clarity and coherence win out any day over how graceful a person appears.

Clarity and coherence aren't demands that exclude the justifiably angry from the discourse.

I am more likely to listen to arguments that make sense, however loudly they are delivered, than the most charming argument, if riddled with holes.

I think point 6 is worth making, though, most definitely. 

 

 

 

I guess I don’t really care if winsome is a great word.  It probably is not. 

If justifiably angry means what is happening: riots, destruction, setting fires, in a situation that was already edgy, I don’t agree with you. 

 

Destruction on top of destruction. It does not solve anything. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

Jesus was not winsome. He was compassionate, direct, indirect (through the use of parables), as the situation dictated. 
 

The Bible tells us to tell the truth in love but doesn’t tell us to sugarcoat it.   When dealing with subject matter that is difficult, I don’t think that we can charm someone to our point of view. We can try to explain things clearly without hyperbole and without twisting the facts. But we can’t control how someone is going to react to the truth. 

[Ausmumof3]

2 hours ago, Pen said:

 

I guess I don’t really care if winsome is a great word.  It probably is not. 

If justifiably angry means what is happening: riots, destruction, setting fires, in a situation that was already edgy, I don’t agree with you. 

 

Destruction on top of destruction. It does not solve anything. 

Anger doesn’t have to result in that though.  Anger is not the problem it’s what we do with it.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, StellaM said:

That's a leap.

The topic is discussion, not riots.

White people shouldn't be gatekeeping the tone of black people's discussion...be winsome, not angry!

Just as men shouldn't gatekeep the tone of women's discussion.

I guess as white people we can gatekeep tone for each other, but I personally I think arguments should stand or fall on their own merits. While some tones are easier and more comfortable to hear than others, a truth doesn't rise or fall on tone.

Plenty of sweet lies told in this world.

I didn’t interpret the above as “white people gatekeeping the tone of black people’s discussion”. I didn’t have a notion that the writer was black or white.

It reminded me of Ben Franklin’s advice on diplomacy. 

[egao_gakari]

I have frequently heard pastors, in particular, use the word "winsomely" incorrectly. They seem to think it means "winningly," as in "in a manner likely to win people over; non-threateningly; with good will toward the listener." We are on a nerdful forum right now, and are accustomed to people using words in the right way all the time. I've found that many if not most people in the "outside world" (including my DH) get truly frustrated by my confusion when they use a word incorrectly. I'm honestly confused and thrown by the misused word, but they see it as intentionally missing the overall point.

I've had this done to me as well. In the Catholic world, "people of goodwill" is a frequently used phrase that describes non-Christians who try to act in accordance with their consciences. At one point, I shared on social media what I thought would be a completely innocuous post. It included a sentence like, "Christians, Jews, Muslims, and all people of goodwill can work together on this issue." Lo and behold, I was attacked by an atheist facebook friend who was offended that "only religious people are identified as having goodwill." Obviously in the context, "all people of goodwill" was being used as a catchall for anybody who didn't fit into the Christian/Jewish/Muslim categories, and I'd say that includes atheists, but this person misunderstood and frankly wasn't interested in having his misunderstanding corrected. What could have been a fruitful discussion devolved into arguing about whether this certain phrase was appropriately used.

[Ausmumof3]

4 minutes ago, egao_gakari said:

I have frequently heard pastors, in particular, use the word "winsomely" incorrectly. They seem to think it means "winningly," as in "in a manner likely to win people over; non-threateningly; with good will toward the listener." We are on a nerdful forum right now, and are accustomed to people using words in the right way all the time. I've found that many if not most people in the "outside world" (including my DH) get truly frustrated by my confusion when they use a word incorrectly. I'm honestly confused and thrown by the misused word, but they see it as intentionally missing the overall point.

I've had this done to me as well. In the Catholic world, "people of goodwill" is a frequently used phrase that describes non-Christians who try to act in accordance with their consciences. At one point, I shared on social media what I thought would be a completely innocuous post. It included a sentence like, "Christians, Jews, Muslims, and all people of goodwill can work together on this issue." Lo and behold, I was attacked by an atheist facebook friend who was offended that "only religious people are identified as having goodwill." Obviously in the context, "all people of goodwill" was being used as a catchall for anybody who didn't fit into the Christian/Jewish/Muslim categories, and I'd say that includes atheists, but this person misunderstood and frankly wasn't interested in having his misunderstanding corrected. What could have been a fruitful discussion devolved into arguing about whether this certain phrase was appropriately used.

This makes sense then.  I’ve never heard it misused in that way here.

[egao_gakari]

2 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

This makes sense then.  I’ve never heard it misused in that way here.

Every time I hear it, I internally wince and go, "That's not what that word means," under my breath, and DH steps lightly on my foot to remind me we're in public 😂

[maize]

24 minutes ago, egao_gakari said:

I have frequently heard pastors, in particular, use the word "winsomely" incorrectly. They seem to think it means "winningly," as in "in a manner likely to win people over; non-threateningly; with good will toward the listener." We are on a nerdful forum right now, and are accustomed to people using words in the right way all the time. I've found that many if not most people in the "outside world" (including my DH) get truly frustrated by my confusion when they use a word incorrectly. I'm honestly confused and thrown by the misused word, but they see it as intentionally missing the overall point.

I've had this done to me as well. In the Catholic world, "people of goodwill" is a frequently used phrase that describes non-Christians who try to act in accordance with their consciences. At one point, I shared on social media what I thought would be a completely innocuous post. It included a sentence like, "Christians, Jews, Muslims, and all people of goodwill can work together on this issue." Lo and behold, I was attacked by an atheist facebook friend who was offended that "only religious people are identified as having goodwill." Obviously in the context, "all people of goodwill" was being used as a catchall for anybody who didn't fit into the Christian/Jewish/Muslim categories, and I'd say that includes atheists, but this person misunderstood and frankly wasn't interested in having his misunderstanding corrected. What could have been a fruitful discussion devolved into arguing about whether this certain phrase was appropriately used.

From a linguistic point of view, if a word gets used with a particular meaning frequently that becomes a correct--meaning mutually understood within the context it is being used in--usage of the word. Word usages are not set in stone as "correct" and "incorrect", they carry whatever meaning a group of people attribute to them.

[egao_gakari]

Just now, maize said:

From a linguistic point of view, if a word gets used with a particular meaning frequently that becomes a correct--meaning mutually understood within the context it is being used in--usage of the word. Word usages are not set in stone as "correct" and "incorrect", they carry whatever meaning a group of people attribute to them.

That's very true from a linguistic point of view. But it certainly leads to conflict and confusion when two groups that use the same word differently come into contact. Particularly in conflict-prone situations where people are more likely to attribute misuses to malice on the other side rather than ignorance on their own side.

[Pen]

2 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Anger doesn’t have to result in that though.  Anger is not the problem it’s what we do with it.

 

I know. 

 

I also know what tends to happen when angry crowds get together.  

And that it doesn’t take a lot for some fomenting actions and comments to lead to destruction. And to whip anger into violence. 

 

I have lived through a number of nearby riots and have a lot of PTSD from a bad one in my childhood. 

 

 

I am quite a few miles outside the nearest cities that had burning and looting and we nonetheless had smoke and yellow sky here.

More demonstrations are expected today.

 I am not in a good mood. 

 

 

 

 

[Ausmumof3]

13 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

I know. 

 

I also know what tends to happen when angry crowds get together.  

And that it doesn’t take a lot for some fomenting actions and comments to lead to destruction. And to whip anger into violence. 

 

I have lived through a number of nearby riots and have a lot of PTSD from a bad one in my childhood. 

 

 

I am quite a few miles outside the nearest cities that had burning and looting and we nonetheless had smoke and yellow sky here.

More demonstrations are expected today.

 I am not in a good mood. 

 

 

 

 

Yes it looks scary.  Stay safe!

[Pen]

From peaceful vigil to riots and arson in a couple of hours:

https://www.kgw.com/article/news/local/portland-oregon-george-floyd-riot-videos-timeline/283-e20b378c-fddc-41b3-a7f0-036d240f902b

 

 

[Pen]

The words being used locally for a Black Lives Protest scheduled today

Organizers said the protest is meant to "express outrage” it says in a news outlet. 

 

This is already becoming more inflammatory from:

 

”

...

Bring signs, megaphones, speakers, music, instruments, bring friends, 
bring your kids. If you have songs or poetry bring it, art(performing 
art), shirts, hats, bring it.

Most of all bring yourself and I 
mean your whole self. Take a moment before you arrive to really think 
about what this is for and what your motives are for this protest. This 
is for the African American men and women murdered by the police in this
country. Let that be with you our whole journey ...

”

The original request for people sounds relatively peaceful—though it does not anywhere actually call for peacefulness.  But now it has gone to “outrage”...  and will no doubt be joined by many people who just like expressing outrage or who have various agendas.

It is hard to imagine riot police are not also gearing up. 

 

I will be delighted beyond words if they manage to keep it peaceful and if they manage to keep 6 feet separated and masks on. 

 

[TCB]

8 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

To me it has a connotation of kind of appealing innocence or even bordering on flirtatious if you know what I mean.  Definitely a connotation of using cuteness or whatever to get your point across rather than logic.  I didn’t want to bother with it because the rest of the advice was good but seeing it’s been said I just want to say it was the one discordant note here.  I’m going to assume it’s a location based difference.

It is used by some here in Christian circles and I think it has a different meaning to them, I don’t think it is meant in a negative way. I’m not used to it either. Cultural differences.

[Sneezyone]

45 minutes ago, Pen said:

The words being used locally for a Black Lives Protest scheduled today

Organizers said the protest is meant to "express outrage” it says in a news outlet. 

 

This is already becoming more inflammatory from:

 

”

...

Bring signs, megaphones, speakers, music, instruments, bring friends, 
bring your kids. If you have songs or poetry bring it, art(performing 
art), shirts, hats, bring it.

Most of all bring yourself and I 
mean your whole self. Take a moment before you arrive to really think 
about what this is for and what your motives are for this protest. This 
is for the African American men and women murdered by the police in this
country. Let that be with you our whole journey ...

”

The original request for people sounds relatively peaceful—though it does not anywhere actually call for peacefulness.  But now it has gone to “outrage”...  and will no doubt be joined by many people who just like expressing outrage or who have various agendas.

It is hard to imagine riot police are not also gearing up. 

 

I will be delighted beyond words if they manage to keep it peaceful and if they manage to keep 6 feet separated and masks on. 

 

If you’re not outraged, you’re part of the problem. One can be outraged and express that without violence, sure. Substitute righteous indignation if it makes you feel better. Still, the sentiment remains the same. I’ve been saying this on this very forum for the last several years. THERE IS NO RIGHT WAY TO PROTEST MALTREATMENT OF OR AFFIRM THE EQUALITY OF BLACK AND BROWN PEOPLE. Unless or until someone can identify a ‘right way’, I have zero fucks to give WRT property damage seeded/incited by white anarchists and supremacists.

Edited May 31, 2020 by Sneezyone

[Pen]

6 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

If you’re not outraged, you’re part of the problem.

I am the parent of a brown skinned young man.

 I have plenty of concerns from police brutality, from general “less than” treatment and from riots.

Think how you like.

Please Don’t tell me how I should think.

That is obnoxious and self righteous sounding in my opinion. 

6 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

One can be outraged and express that without violence, sure. Substitute righteous indignation if it makes you feel better. Still, the sentiment remains the same. I’ve been saying this on this very forum for the last several years. THERE IS NO RIGHT WAY TO PROTEST MALTREATMENT OF OR AFFIRM THE EQUALITY OF BLACK AND BROWN PEOPLE.

 

There are most certainly wrong ways.  

 

6 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Unless or until someone can identify a ‘right way’, I have zero fucks to give WRT property damage seeded/incited by white anarchists and supremacists.

 

People were also injured and possibly some killed.  

 

Far more more will be injured indirectly. 

 

Many more People (people of all skin colors) can’t get food and medicine than were already having troubles last week. Even more will lose their jobs.

 

Anarchists, white supremacists, skinheads and others taking control and turning things violent is a major problem.  It is part of what I am deeply worried about with regard to a large protest expected to start up in a few hours. 

 

 

 

[Sneezyone]

10 minutes ago, Pen said:

I am the parent of a brown skinned young man.

 I have plenty of concerns from police brutality, from general “less than” treatment and from riots.

Think how you like.

Please Don’t tell me how I should think.

That is obnoxious and self righteous sounding in my opinion. 

 

There are most certainly wrong ways.  

 

 

People were also injured and possibly some killed.  

 

Far more more will be injured indirectly. 

 

Many more People (people of all skin colors) can’t get food and medicine than were already having troubles last week. Even more will lose their jobs.

 

Anarchists, white supremacists, skinheads and others taking control and turning things violent is a major problem.  It is part of what I am deeply worried about with regard to a large protest expected to start up in a few hours. 

 

 

 

1) I didn’t tell you how to think. I told you how *I* think. I am not only the parent of this child. I was this child. I am this adult. This is my entire family.

2) Silent kneeling engendered the same levels of outrage. A fist raised on the podium engendered the same level of outrage. I notice you have no solutions on offer. Thanks for nothing?

3) People have been killed, are being killed, EVERY DAY as a result of excessive force and disproportionate policing. But sure, let’s focus on the last four days b/c that is what’s most important.

Edited May 31, 2020 by Sneezyone

[Ausmumof3]

10 minutes ago, Pen said:

I am the parent of a brown skinned young man.

 I have plenty of concerns from police brutality, from general “less than” treatment and from riots.

Think how you like.

Please Don’t tell me how I should think.

That is obnoxious and self righteous sounding in my opinion. 

 

There are most certainly wrong ways.  

 

 

People were also injured and possibly some killed.  

 

Far more more will be injured indirectly. 

 

Many more People (people of all skin colors) can’t get food and medicine than were already having troubles last week. Even more will lose their jobs.

 

Anarchists, white supremacists, skinheads and others taking control and turning things violent is a major problem.  It is part of what I am deeply worried about with regard to a large protest expected to start up in a few hours. 

 

 

 

Do you have a curfew there?  Maybe that will help a bit?

[Pen]

24 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Do you have a curfew there?  Maybe that will help a bit?

 

In  my state in Portland and parts of Eugene there are some night curfews.   (As state of emergency or equivalent declarations due to riots. ) 

Curfews in many places that have them seem to be being disregarded.

 

We are lucky to have had some rain, but in some places without rain, fires due to the arsons  were going out of control . Even with rain they were a problem in our cities in the PNW ...  Summer wildfires (like Australia brushfires) season starts around now.  In Calif the rioting more easily burned buildings and some are still going today: 

 

 

 

Edited May 31, 2020 by Pen

[Sneezyone]

Oregon is known for this stuff, just like Seattle. 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.insider.com/boss-conspired-police-employee-michael-fesser-arrested-complained-racial-discrimination-2020-2%3famp
 

https://www.oregonlive.com/portland/2018/10/anarchists_expletives_911_port.html

https://theintercept.com/2019/08/16/portland-far-right-rally/?comments=1

The ethnic composition of the population of Oregon is composed of 3.15M White Alone residents (75.1%), 556k Hispanic or Latino residents (13.3%), 188k Asian Alone residents (4.5%), 155k Two or More Races residents (3.69%), 77.9k Black or African American Alone residents (1.86%), 41.1k American Indian & AlaskaNative...

 

[Pen]

1 hour ago, Sneezyone said:

1) I didn’t tell you how to think. I told you how *I* think.

You used the word “you.”

 

Quote

I am not only the parent of this child. I was this child. I am this adult. This is my entire family.

2) Silent kneeling engendered the same levels of outrage. A fist raised on the podium engendered the same level of outrage. I notice you have no solutions on offer. Thanks for nothing?

 

I would like to see a whole different level of training for society and particularly for police. 

 

 

Quote

3) People have been killed, are being killed, EVERY DAY as a result of excessive force and disproportionate policing.

 

That is basically true. 

 

Quote

But sure, let’s focus on the last four days b/c that is what’s most important.

 

Whenever IME there has been rioting, from Watts Riots on, getting the riots stopped ends up taking precedence over the real underlying problems.   And it does not lead to better lives IME.  

 

 

Edited May 31, 2020 by Pen

[Sneezyone]

33 minutes ago, Pen said:

You used the word “you.”

 

 

I would like to see a whole different level of training for society and particularly for police. 

 

 

 

That is true. 

 

 

Whenever IME there has been rioting, from Watts Riots on, getting the riots stopped ends up taking precedence over the real underlying problems.   And it does not lead to better lives IME.  

 

 

It was an *If*, *then* statement. If it didn’t apply to you, no need to address it. A hit dog will holler. As to number 4...NOTHING has led to changes so complaining about what does happen is just as stupid and pointless as complaining about what does happen.

Edited May 31, 2020 by Sneezyone

[Pen]

4 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Oregon is known for this stuff, just like Seattle. 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.insider.com/boss-conspired-police-employee-michael-fesser-arrested-complained-racial-discrimination-2020-2%3famp
 

https://www.oregonlive.com/portland/2018/10/anarchists_expletives_911_port.html

https://theintercept.com/2019/08/16/portland-far-right-rally/?comments=1

The ethnic composition of the population of Oregon is composed of 3.15M White Alone residents (75.1%), 556k Hispanic or Latino residents (13.3%), 188k Asian Alone residents (4.5%), 155k Two or More Races residents (3.69%), 77.9k Black or African American Alone residents (1.86%), 41.1k American Indian & AlaskaNative...

 

 

Oregon is very white. It is a very strange feeling after living places like Brazil and NYC.

 

There are nearly 60K American Indians in the Portland metro area alone, so I know your source’s figures are off, but the general “white” nature of the state is generally correct. 

 

[Pen]

4 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

It was an *If*, *then* statement. If it didn’t apply to you, no need to address it. A hot dog will holler. As to number 4...NOTHING has led to changes so complaining about what does happen is just as stupid and pointless as complaining about what does happen.

 

I have seen lots of changes in my lifetime. 

 

 

[Sneezyone]

22 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

I have seen lots of changes in my lifetime. 

 

 

It’s not enough. It wasn’t enough then and it isn’t now.

[Sneezyone]

26 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

Oregon is very white. It is a very strange feeling after living places like Brazil and NYC.

 

There are nearly 60K American Indians in the Portland metro area alone, so I know your source’s figures are off, but the general “white” nature of the state is generally correct. 

 

The source figures are not wrong. If anything, they’re more generous because they came after the last census. Portland is not Oregon. https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/OR/BZA010217

Edited May 31, 2020 by Sneezyone

[Pen]

 

 

 

https://daily.jstor.org/did-the-1965-watts-riots-change-anything/

 

...  quotes:

 

...

In some ways our current conversation about these issues began more than 50 years ago, on August 11, 1965, when a confrontation between a black driver and white police officers in the Watts neighborhood of Los Angeles exploded into urban unrest. Six days later, 34 people were dead and property damage totaled $40 million. As David O. Sears and T.M. Tomlinson wrote in a 1968 paper, a media narrative quickly developed: Watts rioters represented a tiny fraction of the neighborhood, reviled by the majority of law-abiding citizens. The riots were a meaningless outburst of destruction that left most locals worried about the neighborhood’s future.

But when researchers went out and actually talked with people in the neighborhood, they found a very different story. Looking at interviews with 586 black adults who lived within the curfew zone that marked the area of the riots, Sears and Tomlinson found that 22 percent said they’d been at least somewhat involved in the unrest. Fifty-six percent said the unrest had a purpose or goal, and 58 percent expected it to have favorable effects.  ...

 

...

, only 46 percent of the local residents identified the event as a riot at all, while 38 percent said it was a revolt, revolution, or insurrection.

...

51 percent of the black sample said whites were more sympathetic to “Negro problems” after the riots. But there they were apparently mistaken. Only a third of the white group said that whites had become any more sympathetic, and 71 percent said the riots had increased the “gap between the races.”

 

 

[Sneezyone]

22 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

 

 

https://daily.jstor.org/did-the-1965-watts-riots-change-anything/

 

...  quotes:

 

...

In some ways our current conversation about these issues began more than 50 years ago, on August 11, 1965, when a confrontation between a black driver and white police officers in the Watts neighborhood of Los Angeles exploded into urban unrest. Six days later, 34 people were dead and property damage totaled $40 million. As David O. Sears and T.M. Tomlinson wrote in a 1968 paper, a media narrative quickly developed: Watts rioters represented a tiny fraction of the neighborhood, reviled by the majority of law-abiding citizens. The riots were a meaningless outburst of destruction that left most locals worried about the neighborhood’s future.

But when researchers went out and actually talked with people in the neighborhood, they found a very different story. Looking at interviews with 586 black adults who lived within the curfew zone that marked the area of the riots, Sears and Tomlinson found that 22 percent said they’d been at least somewhat involved in the unrest. Fifty-six percent said the unrest had a purpose or goal, and 58 percent expected it to have favorable effects.  ...

 

...

, only 46 percent of the local residents identified the event as a riot at all, while 38 percent said it was a revolt, revolution, or insurrection.

...

51 percent of the black sample said whites were more sympathetic to “Negro problems” after the riots. But there they were apparently mistaken. Only a third of the white group said that whites had become any more sympathetic, and 71 percent said the riots had increased the “gap between the races.”

 

 

What is your point? That white people don’t like when black and brown people complain? What’s newsworthy about that. White people would rather focus on property destruction in an uprising than on fixing the systemic, daily violence perpetrated on minority groups. They would rather rage about a kneeling athlete than vote to protect all lives. They would rather bitch about whose to blame in the moment than how to solve the problems for the long haul. That they have no, freaking clue what their people really think about their blindness and these problems? What is new about this? Even as more people ‘see’ the injustices, nothing has changed about how we address the problems. That’s too hard. So yeah, let’s focus on ‘stuff’ and ‘things’.  Jesus wept.

Edited May 31, 2020 by Sneezyone

[Pen]

25 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

The source figures are not wrong. If anything, they’re more generous because they came after the last census. Portland is not Oregon. https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/OR/BZA010217

 

I know Ptlnd is not Oregon. 😊

 

The number of American Indians in Portland came up recently in regard to Covid19.

 

In Oregon, American Indians have ~ (approx sign) double the death rate from CV19 as in the state as a whole.

There was a question of how much of that was due to about half the American Indian population of the state being located in the Portland metro area which itself is a major CV19 hotspot for the state. And how much was for other reasons.

 

So for figures from a very short time ago there were more than 3 times (and possibly ~ 4 times) the number of American Indians in the state as the source figures gave in your quote.   And more American Indians just in the Ptlnd area alone than your source indicates. It is possible that that was wrong.   If so, the death rate from CV19 amongst American Indians in Oregon is far worse than currently reported. 😟

 

 

 

[Pen]

5 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

What is your point? That white people don’t like when black and brown people complain? What’s newsworthy about that. White people would rather focus on property destruction in an uprising than on fixing the systemic, daily violence perpetrated on minority groups. They would rather rage about a kneeling athlete than vote to protect all lives. They would rather bitch about whose to blame in the moment than how to solve the problems for the long haul. That they have no, freaking clue what their people really think about their blindness and these problems? What is new about this? Even as more people ‘see’ the injustices, nothing has changed about how we address the problems. That’s too hard. So yeah, let’s focus on ‘stuff’ and ‘things’.  Jesus wept.

 

Afaik:

That the riots did not save lives.

They did not stop police brutality.

 

Because if they had worked ... we would not be having this conversation. 

 

 

 

 

[Sneezyone]

8 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

Afaik:

That the riots did not save lives.

They did not stop police brutality.

 

Because if they had worked ... we would not be having this conversation. 

 

 

 

 

NOTHING has worked. What are your solutions? Because the only thing I keep hearing is NOT THAT WAY! And that is a big part of the problem. To be honest, if I were white in America I’d probably be grateful that anyone who’s ever had marginal success channeling this righteous anger in a single direction has been killed. Because the demographic trends nationally are no longer on your side. And if the same kind of demagogue that now leads an ascendant, de facto, white people’s party ever emerged to unite other groups and enact similar state-tolerated (if not sanctioned) systems of abuse, you would lose your ever-loving minds.

Edited May 31, 2020 by Sneezyone

[AmandaVT]

1 hour ago, Pen said:

 

I would like to see a whole different level of training for society and particularly for police. 

 

 

Camden, NJ seems to be doing a good job in re-training police. They have spent time training their force on deescalation techniques and during the protests yesterday, the police chief joined in and marched with the protesters. 

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2019/08/21/police-must-first-do-no-harm-how-one-nations-roughest-cities-is-reshaping-force-tactics/

 

https://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/2020/05/31/members-of-camden-county-police-department-march-alongside-residents-to-honor-george-floyd/

[Pen]

15 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

NOTHING has worked. What are your solutions? Because the only thing I keep hearing is NOT THAT WAY! And that is a big part of the problem.

 

Things along these lines: 

https://www.policechiefmagazine.org/education-offers-best-solution-for-police-misconduct/

 

And maybe:

https://www.joincampaignzero.org/solutions

 

And a type of direct training of police themselves that decreases tendency to react with violence.   Can not find link right now.

Ah, the type of things @AmandaVTAmanda just posted!

 

 

And maybe even:

https://www.dana.org/article/a-medical-solution-to-reducing-police-brutality/

 

Edited May 31, 2020 by Pen

[Sneezyone]

Training is great. I’d also like to see wearing a badge as an aggravating factor in criminal statutes. More training, higher expectations, no excuses.

[Sneezyone]

41 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

So what will work?  If we listen to you and hear you out, one person to another, as I’m sure almost every woman on this board (including me) is willing to do, what’s the next step?  My party is not racist or de facto white, I don’t change how I interact with friends and teachers and employees based on their race or sex. I’m for strong criminal penalties where a law has been broken, school choice so that kids aren’t segregated by resources or zip code, etc.

We end up in this weird situation where if we ask how to help we are told it’s forcing emotional labor on our black and brown friends, but if we don’t ask we are told we are being complicit and silent, and if we ally it’s inauthentic or never enough.

Whats the right answer here? Unbiased, politically blind, religiously indifferent - just straight up with zero boundaries or PC tell me what the right thing each of us on this board can do ti show our love and solidarity for our neighbors and you.  I’m dead serious, we ARE listening and trying to respond in a genuine, caring way. Help a person out who seems to be missing something in how to love in a way you’d feel and show the change one person to another is capable of to prove it.

We can’t change the whole system, but each of us can control our own little corner of the world.  And I know I speak for dozens of us that we would be willing to try.

 

I appreciate your question. WRT emotional labor...FOR ME, that's about asking me to explain why anger is present not how to solve problems. The work of understanding the problem is on all of us to read about and learn for ourselves, not to request 30 second soundbites from people because we don't want to do homework. That's *my* distinction. Once everyone has something close to the same facts then, I think, it's possible to have have constructive discussions about how to fix things. We will, of course, disagree on the de facto white party thing tho. ;)

The 'right' thing for people to do will look different for everyone and I can only speak about my own feelings about it.

1) Begin close to home. I've said this before but the simplest and closest to home thing people can do is to start talking with their kids from the time they're little (just as non-white people do) about racism and inequality--not in an effort to instill guilt but as a way to create some awareness of our collective obligation to see it, confront it, and address it. Colorblindness is a lie people tell themselves to justify the blindness part. People are unlikely to want to fix problems that they cannot see. I cannot stand to hear white women tell me that their children are too young/pure/precious to confront these issues. And mine aren't? No, my kids are too precious NOT to confront these issues proactively. It's not a one time thing either, it's a long-term and lifelong discussion.

2)  Medium term - Stop getting distracted by squirrels. By that I mean, the periodic outbursts that occur in response to systemic problems are not *THE* problem. The lack of real work being done to address the underlying problems is the issue. It's everything... how freeways were/are used to split thriving black/brown communities, how redlining denied our parents and grandparents the ability to build wealth through homeownership (and the impact that continues to have on black wealth), how environmental issues/pollution make us more vulnerable to things like COVID, how the criminalization of black life in the years after reconstruction led to mass incarceration (which is NOT mass criminality), etc. The problems are multifaceted. What models exist to right environmental wrongs, encourage community building, and depopulate our prisons. I don't know but that's where *I* think the focus should be.

3) Long-term - Damnit, put your freaking votes where your mouth is. Steve King keeps getting elected in Iowa b/c people vote for him. His wholly out of bounds rhetoric (he's not alone) has been an acceptable thing for far too many white people. You can be conservative and Christian all day long without supporting and tolerating rhetoric and behavior designed to marginalize non-white people. You can have market-based solutions that do not disenfranchise black and brown people. You can encourage ALL CITIZENS to participate in the governance of this nation and not hoard the right to do so for those who most closely match your own situation. These haven't been lines white women, as a group, have been willing to tow. I don't think they're big asks. And WRT to LEO violence, training is great but it's not enough. There have been multiple rounds of 'sensitivity' training and recommendations that discuss this going back over 60 years. Expecting people to voluntarily relinquish their power is a fool's errand IMO. There ALSO need to be some sticks. If you're going to give people the power to take life and the authority to act on behalf of the state then they ALSO need an additional measure of accountability. I think we have to work on how we select, train, retain, promote, AND dismiss officers as well as how they are prosecuted.

This is JMO, obv.

 

Edited May 31, 2020 by Sneezyone

[Pen]

 

24 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

I don't think they're big asks. And WRT to LEO violence, training is great but it's not enough. There have been multiple rounds of 'sensitivity' training and

 

I thought your post was good. I am not disagreeing with it. I want to add something on the training issue.

 

 I don’t think “sensitivity “ training is the type of training needed.  

I think what is needed is Behavior and action practice.  Similar to training that allows a plane pilot to cope with the unexpected, or an undersea diver, or a surgeon, so that there are not common overreactions to situations.  

I also think some changes in how common things are done should be implemented.

For example, in vehicle stops, reaching into glove compartment for id seems to be a frequent problem.  Why as a society commonly keep ID in a place that could conceivably also have a gun.  That whole area of trouble could probably be changed fairly quickly by having some other common system.

 

[Pen]

What do you think of Mobile Justice Apps?

 

[HeartString]

42 minutes ago, Danae said:

ecause cars don’t come equipped with a handy slot too small to hold a gun in which to store your registration and proof of insurance

We could all start using the sun visor.  Or just an envelope on the dash.  

[Sneezyone]

Where you store your drivers license is a symptom fix. Addressing why LEOs are reflexively more aggressive toward and afraid of non-white people isn’t solved that way.

[Ausmumof3]

2 hours ago, Danae said:

Because cars don’t come equipped with a handy slot too small to hold a gun in which to store your registration and proof of insurance?

My forester actually has a pocket kind of thing on the fold down sun shields.  Maybe that needs to be more common.

[Pen]

I have been waiting for a report on today’s nearest protest from a friend who went.  I am trying to decide if no news is good news or bad news. 

 

[Sneezyone]

2 hours ago, StellaM said:

 

HE HE HE! I do have a way of not being winsome. I do try from time to time, as in, I consciously exert more effort, but I don't always feel up to it and this is one of those times. My DH (who NEVER likes to discuss politics with me b/c he's always thinking only about the next day) came home  today and expressed frustration at what he's seeing on his FB feed from colleagues who want to hold up the 'non-violent' protests of the civil rights movement (and MLK) as examples. I think it was Terebith in the other thread who said exactly what he did..."How was it non-violent when people were being beaten about the head, bitten by dogs, blasted off their feet by firehoses, and killed? I'm tired of it." Bless his heart, it's always hard to be a black military officer. It's especially hard right now.

Edited June 1, 2020 by Sneezyone