Yeast question for bakers

[Innisfree]

While I have some active dry yeast on hand, I'd like to conserve it. My sourdough starter has made me start thinking about stories I grew up hearing about jars of liquid yeast kept in a springhouse. The family breadmaking style was definitely not sourdough; so, can a sourdough type starter be used for breads that are not sour? How would one do that?

I'm thinking of good, basic yeast bread or rolls, or Sally Lunn, or something like that. Commercial yeast is a fairly modern invention. These breads are not modern inventions. How can I do this? Is it as simple as having a strong starter and some judicious use of sugar, or what?

Edited April 6, 2020 by Innisfree
Spelling

[Miss Tick]

Great question, I've been wondering the same thing.

Here's a nice rabbit hole to fall down. There are a couple of ideas I may try next week, since my yeast sure is getting low as my baking increases.

[Innisfree]

2 minutes ago, SusanC said:

Great question, I've been wondering the same thing.

Here's a nice rabbit hole to fall down. There are a couple of ideas I may try next week, since my yeast sure is getting low as my baking increases.

Thanks, I'll check that out!

I was just coming back to link instructions for salt-rising bread, which seems to be one approach to making bread without commercial yeast. I'm going to have to try this.

https://www.kingarthurflour.com/recipes/classic-american-salt-rising-bread-recipe

[8filltheheart]

Not what you asked, but I was able to order 1 lb bags of yeast from Bread Beckers last week. I ha e been ordering from them since the 90s. They had gluten, too, but no lecithin.

[Innisfree]

@SusanC's link is great, if anyone else is interested, and provides more avenues for exploration.

[madteaparty]

I’ve been told to use sourdough to make baguettes and those are not at all sour. Haven’t tried full “sourdough” bread without chemical yeast, though. 

 

[Sherry in OH]

I made this soda bread yesterday.  It was quick and easy.  

[fairfarmhand]

Often the yeasts that you capture in your kitchen for sour dough are basically the offspring of the yeast that you used for bread baking from store bought yeasts. If I remember what I’ve read correctly.

[Innisfree]

Quote

The micro-flora consists of a symbiotic set of indigenous acid tolerant yeasts and Lactobacillus bacteria, the dominant species, usually L. sanfranciscensis is hetero-fermentative and produces lactic and acetic acid.

Warm temperatures above 25°C promote the ideal balance of acids; 4 parts lactic to 1 part acetic ideal for sweet leavened pastries. At cool room temperatures a balance of 3:1 (lactic:acetic) is ideal for bread.

This link is primarily focused on Italian types of sourdough bread, but goes into how to influence which types of yeast predominate, yielding a more or less acidic dough.

https://staffoflife.wordpress.com/natural-yeast-lievito-naturale/

(Don't know why I can't seem to add the quote box where I tried to put it, after the link, but anyway...)

Edited April 6, 2020 by Innisfree

[8filltheheart]

11 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

Never made bread before, so I've been taking baby steps in making bread. Had all ingredients except yeast. Apparently it is TP of baking world in my case as I had no luck finding it even on amazon and no clue where to look. So I made Irish soda bread. I've heard of it, never realized the soda in it is baking soda. 😊

I posted earlier in this thread that Bread Beckers still has yeast.  A 1 lb bag (which will last about forever in the freezer) is about $5 plus shipping.

[8filltheheart]

8 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

Thank you so much and for introducing me to such a wonderful site. I have fallen down a lovely rabbit role. 

I love Bread Beckers.  I ordered a DLX mixer and a Whisper Mill from them back in the 90s (both still working today.  I don't know what I'll do if either one konks out on me now!!)  They are the ones that got me started baking bread.  As we have moved around the country, if I have had the ability to join one of their co-op deliveries, I have.  Their grains are the best I have ever ordered.  Love their stuff. We moved this summer and I haven't joined a co-op here yet, so I can't order grain bc it is way to expensive to ship in bulk.  But yeast and gluten, yes.

[KungFuPanda]

If your family was keeping their own yeast and feeding it regularly, it was a wild, local yeast.  The taste varies by location and some "sourdough" starters don't taste as sour as others.  Also, a starter that is kept active, well-fed, and used often will taste less sour than one that is neglected and used infrequently.  To further complicate matters, a wetter starter will taste more sour.  I intentionally keep mind about the consistency of pancake batter because I'm trying to make my Maryland starter taste more like the San Francisco one.  

Odds are your family starter WAS a sourdough starter that just didn't taste sour to you.

[Pawz4me]

40 minutes ago, KungFuPanda said:

 

Odds are your family starter WAS a sourdough starter that just didn't taste sour to you.

I'm no expert, but that was my thought, too.

[Innisfree]

56 minutes ago, KungFuPanda said:

If your family was keeping their own yeast and feeding it regularly, it was a wild, local yeast.  The taste varies by location and some "sourdough" starters don't taste as sour as others.  Also, a starter that is kept active, well-fed, and used often will taste less sour than one that is neglected and used infrequently.  To further complicate matters, a wetter starter will taste more sour.  I intentionally keep mind about the consistency of pancake batter because I'm trying to make my Maryland starter taste more like the San Francisco one. 

58 minutes ago, KungFuPanda said:

Odds are your family starter WAS a sourdough starter that just didn't taste sour to you.

 

I'm sure you're right about the wild, local yeast, and about it being essentially a sourdough, too, in that sense. Sourness is the goal in some bread, though, and it wasn't in this.

Unfortunately I never saw or tasted it, I just heard stories from many decades earlier: I think maybe they were still doing this in the 1920s or early 1930s when my mother spent time there, but it's possible she was just passing on stories she had heard, rather than things she had seen.

Their location was pretty close to where I am now, though: within about 50 miles. I'm sure there are a zillion other influences, which might have altered the prevalent wild yeasts. You're right about baking frequently. They were feeding a lot of people, and baking daily, I suspect. So that would alter the starter.

I did manage to find some old recipes for yeast today, with widely varying ingredients: everything from potatoes to raisins and honey to hops (and that was being used for bread, not beer). I assume different ingredients might be preferred by different yeast strains, shifting the flavor balance  a bit...? One of the sources I linked above also mentioned temperature having an influence on the lactic vs. acetic acid balance. 

Basically there's a lot I don't know about all this, but I'm curious. I started a culture of potatoes and a bit of sugar, following one recipe, but the instructions are decidedly scant, so it's going to take some experimentation. Something to keep me busy at home this spring...

[Terabith]

1 hour ago, KungFuPanda said:

If your family was keeping their own yeast and feeding it regularly, it was a wild, local yeast.  The taste varies by location and some "sourdough" starters don't taste as sour as others.  Also, a starter that is kept active, well-fed, and used often will taste less sour than one that is neglected and used infrequently.  To further complicate matters, a wetter starter will taste more sour.  I intentionally keep mind about the consistency of pancake batter because I'm trying to make my Maryland starter taste more like the San Francisco one.  

Odds are your family starter WAS a sourdough starter that just didn't taste sour to you.

Oh my gosh.  I hadn't even thought about trying to keep yeast happy, active, and well fed!  This is very stressful!  I'm already worried about happy mint plants.  

[Spy Car]

Background (skipable)

OK. I'm on this path right now myself.

I wanted to be able to maintain a strict lockdown for as long as it takes, and I knew one precondition to insuring compliance would be assuming a supply of fresh bread.

I bought 50 sack of hard red wheat at the feed store (cheap!) and a really nice grain mill.

But I only had a three pack of commercial dry yeast (plus one dry sourdough starter shipped with the mill.

I may never need any of the yeast packs beyond the one I've used (and kept alive).

Method.

Proof the yeast. When the yeast is active, feed the colony with 50/50 flour/water mix. Continue to feed with 50/50 mix twice daily. Keep the yeast happy and well fed. From my understanding all yeast cultures take on wild local yeast and pick up yeast from fresh ground-wheat where it exists naturally. You can keep this going indefinitely if you are good about feeding it. 

You will also have a lot of starter if you are not cranking out loaves.

I've been turning my "discards" (perish the thought) which is what some call excess starter makes excellent crackers.

If you don't need a super-active colony (plus want a back up) put some starter in a jar and refrigerate. Then feedings slow way down with semi-dormancy.

I'm come to think of my colony as a life force that I am nurturing.

Bill

 

 

If you 

[Innisfree]

So Bill, are you after a sour-tasting loaf? 

Have you been baking frequently enough to find out if you can produce bread that is *not* sour? I don't think I have enough people eating enough bread to let my sourdough starter not taste sour.

A little sourdough bread is great, but what I want to figure out is how to make bread which is not sour, without using commercial yeast. I know I *can* get commercial yeast; it's really more just a matter of satisfying my own curiosity. And, traditional bread in this region isn't sour.

As KungFuPanda said above, it may just be about using the starter frequently enough. Or......???

Editing to add that I enjoyed your thread on breadmaking. You got me to start investigating mills.

Edited April 7, 2020 by Innisfree

[Innisfree]

6 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

This is a tumblr thread for everyone 😉

I grabbed some raisins and got one going today, even though I have yeast.  I haven’t done a sourdough starter in several years.

https://somanyofthekids.tumblr.com/post/613970018590392320

That's a great thread!

I thought about using raisins, but the recipe I found said they had to be unsulphered. Have you found that to make a difference?

[KungFuPanda]

Your starter doesn’t care how many loaves you produce from it. If you keep it active and fed frequently to the point where it raises your bread quickly, it’s going to produce a less sour (more like a normal) loaf. If you’re like me and have a starter that lives in the fridge and is severely neglected, you’ll produce a slower rising, more sour bread. I LIKE the depth of flavor AND I’m lazy, so I make an intentionally sour loaf. If I want regular bread I use yeast. I buy yeast at Costco and keep it in the freezer. It tends to last about a year. However, if my goal with the starter was to not buy yeast, I’d give it more care.  
 

My starter has been going for about 15 years so it’s comfortable with serious neglect. I regularly go 2-3 weeks without feeding it. I did recently learn a new trick for testing your starter’s readiness to bake. Drop a spoonful in warm water. If it floats, it’s ready. If it sinks you need to feed it more. This is much easier than keeping track of how quickly it doubles, but we’ve established that I’m lazy and neglectful. 😬

[Spy Car]

29 minutes ago, Innisfree said:

So Bill, are you after a sour-tasting loaf? 

Have you been baking frequently enough to find out if you can produce bread that is *not* sour? I don't think I have enough people eating enough bread to let my sourdough starter not taste sour.

A little sourdough bread is great, but what I want to figure out is how to make bread which is not sour, without using commercial yeast. I know I *can* get commercial yeast; it's really more just a matter of satisfying my own curiosity. And, traditional bread in this region isn't sour.

As KungFuPanda said above, it may just be about using the starter frequently enough. Or......???

Editing to add that I enjoyed your thread on breadmaking. You got me to start investigating mills.

What I'm after, first and foremost, is to keep the yeast colony alive.

I'm in a mindset where I will be high-appreciate of what ever flavor profile develops. I like big flavor. I'm making mostly whole wheat items, so a big flavored culture is a plus. I can say the culture that's been going for a few weeks here smells and tastes wonderful. Keeps getting more complex. Very happy with the taste.

If you want an electric mill, the Mockmill 100 is the way to go (unless you can pick up something used for a song). These things are fantastic. They grind as well (if not better) than the lust-worthy wood KoMo mills (also developed by Wolfgang Mock), but are a fraction of the cost. It is easy to use, quiet (pleasant) sound in operation, mills very fine flour (and coarse and everything in between.)

Last night I really felt like serving polenta. But I had no polenta. But a have a 25 lb bag of cornmeal (cheap!). And at first I thought, "Oh well, I don't have polenta, but I can make a corn meal mush that would still be good." A second later it hit me, go mill the corn mill a little finer (to polenta consistency). Got it perfect. The family raved about the stove top polenta. Had left overs. Made baked polenta with tomato sauce mozzarella and fresh herbs tonight. So good. And instead of buying expensive polenta (which I can't get easily, in any case) I made it with 50 cents a lb corn meal. 

For a manual, the Wonder Mill Jr looks like the sweet model to me. But hand grinding wheat is a workout even with a good mill.

Bill

 

 

[8filltheheart]

4 hours ago, Spy Car said:

What I'm after, first and foremost, is to keep the yeast colony alive.

I'm in a mindset where I will be high-appreciate of what ever flavor profile develops. I like big flavor. I'm making mostly whole wheat items, so a big flavored culture is a plus. I can say the culture that's been going for a few weeks here smells and tastes wonderful. Keeps getting more complex. Very happy with the taste.

If you want an electric mill, the Mockmill 100 is the way to go (unless you can pick up something used for a song). These things are fantastic. They grind as well (if not better) than the lust-worthy wood KoMo mills (also developed by Wolfgang Mock), but are a fraction of the cost. It is easy to use, quiet (pleasant) sound in operation, mills very fine flour (and coarse and everything in between.)

Last night I really felt like serving polenta. But I had no polenta. But a have a 25 lb bag of cornmeal (cheap!). And at first I thought, "Oh well, I don't have polenta, but I can make a corn meal mush that would still be good." A second later it hit me, go mill the corn mill a little finer (to polenta consistency). Got it perfect. The family raved about the stove top polenta. Had left overs. Made baked polenta with tomato sauce mozzarella and fresh herbs tonight. So good. And instead of buying expensive polenta (which I can't get easily, in any case) I made it with 50 cents a lb corn meal. 

For a manual, the Wonder Mill Jr looks like the sweet model to me. But hand grinding wheat is a workout even with a good mill.

Bill

 

 

I really love my Whisper Mill (now called Wonder Mill). It still works the same way it did when I bought it over 20 yrs ago. That said, I would never re-mill something in it to make it finer. I would be afraid it would damage the machine. You cant open it to clean it out like the stone grinders.

But, by far, the best investment I ever made for baking bread is my DLX (now known as  the Ankarsrum Original Kitchen Machine ) I wouldn't attempt all the bread baking I do without it. It is absolutely the best machine out there. Worth every single penny.  Still works like a champion all these yrs later. It can handle 15 cups of whole wheat floor with no problem. Love it! 

https://www.breadbeckers.com/store/pc/Ankarsrum-Original-Kitchen-Machine-AKM-6230-Mixer-w-FREE-Shipping-p3639.htm

Edited April 7, 2020 by 8FillTheHeart

[KungFuPanda]

4 hours ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

I really love my Whisper Mill (now called Wonder Mill). It still works the same way it did when I bought it over 20 yrs ago. That said, I would never re-mill something in it to make it finer. I would be afraid it would damage the machine. You cant open it to clean it out like the stone grinders.

But, by far, the best investment I ever made for baking bread is my DLX (now known as  the Ankarsrum Original Kitchen Machine ) I wouldn't attempt all the bread baking I do without it. It is absolutely the best machine out there. Worth every single penny.  Still works like a champion all these yrs later. It can handle 15 cups of whole wheat floor with no problem. Love it! 

https://www.breadbeckers.com/store/pc/Ankarsrum-Original-Kitchen-Machine-AKM-6230-Mixer-w-FREE-Shipping-p3639.htm

Wow.  That’s a powerful machine! I love that it exists, but it would be overkill for my small family. I’ve never used 15 lbs of whole wheat for a single recipe in my whole life. I got into bread making because my people don’t reliably finish a loaf, but they have expensive bread tastes. I figured I could stop paying $4-$5 for bread they don’t finish and make smaller loaves at home for cheap. 
 

ETA: I thought this was a mixer and was wondering WHO was making bread using 15 cups of flour at a time. Ignore me. 
 

I make most of our bread. (I do it all on quarantine.) I just have a Kitchenaid Artisan. It’s met my needs for over a decade and probably paid for itself in less than two years.  If it dies I might get a more powerful motor, but I really like the size and the flip head because It lives on the counter. My kids are grown now, so 1-2 loaves a week meet our needs. 
 

If someone is new to bread baking they’d probably be happier starting with no-knead recipes. They’re so easy and satisfying and with no experience or equipment you can make some delicious “artisan” style loaves. King Arther has a no-knead sourdough I’ve been playing with lately. 

Edited April 7, 2020 by KungFuPanda

[8filltheheart]

49 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

I watched a whole bunch of videos on bread baking thanks to you yesterday from the breadbeckers site. I think this machine was used in the baking101 video. If I am right in identifying it can handle 8lbs at one go which is a lot to me. I would love to get this machine, but not in the budget yet.

 I have a stone grinder to make batter using soaked grains for a form of pancake and dumplings called dosa and idli I carried all the way in checked luggage.  It has also lasted for over 16 years through several moves. It's a workhorse. 

Yeah.  It is expensive.  I wouldn't buy it now unless I was very financially stable with the uncertainty of the economy.  

3 minutes ago, KungFuPanda said:

Wow.  That’s a powerful machine! I love that it exists, but it would be overkill for my small family. I’ve never used 15 lbs of whole wheat for a single recipe in my whole life. I got into bread making because my people don’t reliably finish a loaf, but they have expensive bread tastes. I figured I could stop paying $4-$5 for bread they don’t finish and make smaller loaves at home for cheap. 
 

I make most of our bread. (I do it all on quarantine.) I just have a Kitchenaid Artisan. It’s met my needs for over a decade and probably paid for itself in less than two years.  If it dies I might get a more powerful motor, but I really like the size and the flip head because It lives on the counter. My kids are grown now, so 1-2 loaves a week meet our needs. 
 

If someone is new to bread baking they’d probably be happier starting with no-knead recipes. They’re so easy and satisfying and with no experience or equipment you can make some delicious “artisan” style loaves. King Arther has a no-knead sourdough I’ve been playing with lately. 

15 cups is what I posted, not 15 lbs!  That would be a crazy amt of flour.   I bought mine when my oldest kids were still little.  I used to back 6-8 loaves at a time and follow that immediately by making 48 tortillas.  It was a busy baking day!   I started baking my own bread b/c I believe that milling wheat and baking my own bread is a healthier option than processed store bread.  I have gotten way lazier over the years, though, and had gotten to the point where I only made bread about once a month.  Now, however, I am back to making 4 loaves of bread every 2-3 days to feed the 6 us.

[KungFuPanda]

3 minutes ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

Yeah.  It is expensive.  I wouldn't buy it now unless I was very financially stable with the uncertainty of the economy.  

15 cups is what I posted, not 15 lbs!  That would be a crazy amt of flour.   I bought mine when my oldest kids were still little.  I used to back 6-8 loaves at a time and follow that immediately by making 48 tortillas.  It was a busy baking day!   I started baking my own bread b/c I believe that milling wheat and baking my own bread is a healthier option than processed store bread.  I have gotten way lazier over the years, though, and had gotten to the point where I only made bread about once a month.  Now, however, I am back to making 4 loaves of bread every 2-3 days to feed the 6 us.

I meant 15 cups. I’m just really scattered today. That is an IMPRESSIVE volume of baking. We might go through 4-6 loaves in a month! This week I did a 2lb loaf and a batch of pita and that was more than enough for the three of us. 
 

My sister has a large family and makes bread like you do. Her mixer is huge. They think mine is “cute” because it’s so small. 🤣

[KungFuPanda]

3 hours ago, Arctic Mama said:

Bread updates 🙂

Home starter has been fed three times and is bubbling away. I scooped out a cup for use and refed the starter, moving it to a larger jar since it was spilling out the top of the other one after an hour of sitting on a warm countertop 🙂

 

Tossed in a couple scoops of flour, Two heavy pinches of salt, a glut of olive oil, and water until the texture was right.  This should end up being about a pound and a half loaf, and both are happily rising on the counter above the dishwasher again.  
 

Starter will go in the fridge in a bit and bread should be baked by this afternoon. Note this was done with some raisins, water, flour, and a little time.  Oh, and half a teaspoon of yeast this morning to jumpstart.  But I need no additional yeast for plenty of loaves now, since I have a culture going.

Even if the stores are empty of most ingredients you can still makes bread easily, it doesn’t require an ongoing yeast supply or even a recipe, if you get the basics. Bonus, you’ll feel super clever with yourself over this 😙

Booyah!  I also have some starter on the counter.  I was inspired by a thread here.  I'll probably make some bread tomorrow.  

[madteaparty]

3 hours ago, Arctic Mama said:

Bread updates 🙂

Home starter has been fed three times and is bubbling away. I scooped out a cup for use and refed the starter, moving it to a larger jar since it was spilling out the top of the other one after an hour of sitting on a warm countertop 🙂

 

Tossed in a couple scoops of flour, Two heavy pinches of salt, a glut of olive oil, and water until the texture was right.  This should end up being about a pound and a half loaf, and both are happily rising on the counter above the dishwasher again.  
 

Starter will go in the fridge in a bit and bread should be baked by this afternoon. Note this was done with some raisins, water, flour, and a little time.  Oh, and half a teaspoon of yeast this morning to jumpstart.  But I need no additional yeast for plenty of loaves now, since I have a culture going.

Even if the stores are empty of most ingredients you can still makes bread easily, it doesn’t require an ongoing yeast supply or even a recipe, if you get the basics. Bonus, you’ll feel super clever with yourself over this 😙

Can you post a photo of your loaf when baked? I ask bc my loaf with started and a tiny bit of chemical yeast did not rise quite as much as my full packet of yeast loaves... thanks for the updates, next time I go to store I’m going to try this raisin thing 😉

[8filltheheart]

18 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

@madteaparty here is where we are at after about two hours of the second rise, going into the oven in a minute.

 

Looks perfect!  

[madteaparty]

That’s a beauty!

[Spy Car]

Here's my latest loaf, just from the oven.

Got distracted from baking by planting a good sized garden of greens and building some raised beds to plant out next. Working very hard. Tired.

The dough for this loaf got shunted off to the fridge for a few days. I think it picked up more sourness that way than other loafs. Hard to tell from the photos but this is a pretty big loaf.

Bill

 

[Zoo Keeper]

And for those of us still playing around with starter, I found this page over at the King Arthur website: Sourdough Discard Recipes. 

I really hate throwing away the excess, right now especially.

[Spy Car]

1 hour ago, Arctic Mama said:

Looks awesome!  Is it a rye or a spelt? Something else?

Mine? 100% (or close to it, as there has been some white flour in my starter) whole wheat flour that I've ground from a 50 sack of hard red wheat (obtained from a feed store just before total lockdown) using my new Mockmill 100.

Bill

 

[Spy Car]

1 minute ago, Zoo Keeper said:

And for those of us still playing around with starter, I found this page over at the King Arthur website: Sourdough Discard Recipes. 

I really hate throwing away the excess, right now especially.

I have been making outstanding crackers with my "discards."

Just thinning the starter into batter  and baking in a well oiled tray at 400.

Bill