Do you take B vitamin supplements?

[Garga]

I was thinking of getting some B vitamin supplements for my ds17.  He hates fruits and veggies and hasn’t eaten them pretty much ever, so he can’t get vitamins that way.  He has some anxiety issues and I was reading that B vitamins might be good for him.  You can get 8 B vitamins in a single pill as a complex and that sounded great.

But I’m looking on the sides of the bottles on Amazon, and some of the B vitamins are literally over 8000% of the daily value.  And others are over 4000% percent.  

And then I read a few negative comments on one bottle and it said there is cyanide in the pills?  And comments on another bottle talked about a synthetic something-or-other in the vitamin that stays in your liver and causes trouble later?

Remember back when all you did was take your Flintstone vitamin and life made sense?  😄  Yeah, those days are long gone and I don’t know how to figure out what to do next. 

Has anyone already researched all this and knows why these supplements would be multiple thousands higher than the daily value?  (Maybe I don’t know what daily value means?). Does anyone know of a reputable brand?  Is the cyanide thing something to worry about, or is it actually a normal thing?  

I don’t really know where to start to figure these things out. And no, he hasn’t had blood tests for his B levels. I just heard about B vitamins for anxiety, and so I looked at the bottles on Amazon as a starting point and immediately was confused.  

 

Edited December 28, 2019 by Garga

[Calm37]

I don't know why so high, but I have seen that too. I use the Sundown or Sundance B-Complex 100%. I have used this product for many years. My local grocery sells it, but I see it is on Amazon, too.

[gardenmom5]

b-vitamins are water soluble.  your body will get rid of what you don't use.  USRDA's are a joke.

molecular form matters. (brand matters.)  any vitamin that doesn't' tell you the molecular form it contains - should immediately be dismissed from your list of possibilities.  further research will show they contain cheap forms that are not readily  bioavailable  - and therefore require extremely high amounts just to "possibly" receive enough to actually be useful.  (assuming you don't have a MTHF mutation, which affects about 50% of the population. - this can lead to methylation issues that are a whole 'nother ball of wax.)  

I take Emerald Laboratories B-Healthy.  (bioavailable molecular forms)  I had been taking a double dose of a mid-level drug store brand for a number of years previously (which was more useful for me than other's I tried, and definitely better than nothing.)  within days of switching . . . It was like something flipped ON a light switch.  I won't go back.

 

eta: anyone with a MTHF mutation should NOT take folic acid!  it's 100% artificial, and must be converted to be absorbed.  those with the mutation - can't convert it.

 

Good Brands I trust: (there are others)

Thorne (#1 - pricey)

NOW

Swansen's

Jarrow

Emerald Labs

Pure Encapsulations

Integrative Theraputics

Edited December 28, 2019 by gardenmom5

[Carol in Cal.]

The theory is that they are water soluble so they don't build up in your body, and also they are depleted particularly fast by stress, so you may need more than 'normal' if you are stressed.

In fact, there is one (niacin?) that causes irrevocable nerve damage if taken in high doses over a period of time.  And the MTFR thing makes me leery of them as supplements as does the question of whether the pills actually contain what they say they do, particularly if the source material is from China.  I'm not sure what the solution is.

[gardenmom5]

just to add - you want the most bioavailable since you are getting more for what you're paying for, as opposed to cheaper and less bioavailable forms.  those your body is converting them, and has more waste to excrete (creating more work for your liver.) and less useful vitamin.

[gardenmom5]

1 minute ago, Carol in Cal. said:

The theory is that they are water soluble so they don't build up in your body, and also they are depleted particularly fast by stress, so you may need more than 'normal' if you are stressed.

In fact, there is one (niacin?) that causes irrevocable nerve damage if taken in high doses over a period of time.  And the MTFR thing makes me leery of them as supplements as does the question of whether the pills actually contain what they say they do, particularly if the source material is from China.  I'm not sure what the solution is.

there are multiple forms of mthf on the market - some your body can use, some are a waste of money.

[Garga]

13 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

b-vitamins are water soluble.  your body will get rid of what you don't use.  USRDA's are a joke.

molecular form matters. (brand matters.)  any vitamin that doesn't' tell you the molecular form it contains - should immediately be dismissed from your list of possibilities.  further research will show they contain cheap forms that are not readily  bioavailable  - and therefore require extremely high amounts just to "possibly" receive enough to actually be useful.  (assuming you don't have a MTHF mutation, which affects about 50% of the population. - this can lead to methylation issues that are a whole 'nother ball of wax.)  

I take Emerald Laboratories B-Healthy.  (bioavailable molecular forms)  I had been taking a double dose of a mid-level drug store brand for a number of years previously (which was more useful for me than other's I tried, and definitely better than nothing.)  within days of switching . . . It was like something flipped ON a light switch.  I won't go back.

 

eta: anyone with a MTHF mutation should NOT take folic acid!  it's 100% artificial, and must be converted to be absorbed.  those with the mutation - can't convert it.

 

Good Brands I trust: (there are others)

Thorne (#1 - pricey)

NOW

Swansen's

Jarrow

Emerald Labs

Pure Encapsulations

Integrative Theraputics

How does one know if one has the MTHF mutation?

[gardenmom5]

21 minutes ago, Garga said:

How does one know if one has the MTHF mutation?

MTHF - is methytetrahydrofolate-reductase.  if affects how your body can use folate.

you have to DNA test for it.  It comes in multiple forms.  right now, they only test 677 and 1298.  those are specific spots on a specific gene.  

it can be homozygous (2 mutated), heterozygous (1 mutated, 1 normal), compound hetero (1 mutated of each, 1 normal of each), or compound homozygous (1 mutated of one - 1 normal, and 2 mutated of the other)

it leads to methylation issues, and if you have the mutation and start to supplement (the ONLY OTC sup I like is Thorne. I've taken the Rx Deplin. I'll take thorne thank you very much. I can tell the difference. on deplin - I felt myself going backwards.)  - I also have another defect that affects how I can use b12, so I sup with 5mg of sublingual methylcobalimum (most bioavailable, after shots.)

IF you supplement - (this is VERY important!!!) - start low dose, and *slowly* raise to your optimum dosage.  I had a dr who didn't know what she was doing, and put me on 15mg right off the bat.  I knew better, I have no excuse.  then she wanted me to quit cold turkey.  I lowered it as fast as I could, and was on 2mg for several years before I started to increase my dose again. that's all I could tolerate as my system was clearing the methylation issues.

I can see many of the disorders tied to 1298 in three generations of my mother's family.  I'm terrified of TIAs.  that's linked (vascular) to 1298, and my mother and grandmother (as well as several of  her sisters) -  had TIA linked dementia.  that's just one thing linked to 1298 I see in multiple -generations.

Edited December 28, 2019 by gardenmom5
clairfication

[Pen]

Yes.

I usually use either Emerald (already linked above) or Country Life.  Both have their B12 as methylcobalamin (not cyanocobalamin).  I think both are reputable, and I feel like they help.  I get a lot of increased symptoms if my Bvitamins are low. 

————-

Calcium and magnesium and zinc / copper balance also worth looking at

———

You can read up on under and over methylators 

the book by William Walsh I posted some time back about nutrients and mental functions may be helpful 

methylation may be an epigenetic change that can be caused by stress

[Pen]

Daily value is generally enough for most people not to have extreme illness — like Beri-beri for extreme B1 deficiency etc     It’s probably well below optimum for many people.  

[gardenmom5]

38 minutes ago, Pen said:

Daily value is generally enough for most people not to have extreme illness — like Beri-beri for extreme B1 deficiency etc     It’s probably well below optimum for many people.  

Yeah.  They were set decades ago.

Eg.  Vitamin d.  It was set when they thought it was all about bones and teeth - which is a d3 level of 7.

.  Now, it's been reclassified as a hormone, and a LOW blood level recommendation is 30.   Many are now recommending a basement  de level of 50 - the rda of 400ius hasn't changed. 

[Liz CA]

3 hours ago, Garga said:

How does one know if one has the MTHF mutation?

 

a blood test will tell you. 

I take Phosphorylated Vitamin B by Metabolic Maintenance.

[MercyA]

Yes, I take them, and I can tell when I don't. I don't feel as well mentally and I get little cracks at the corners of my mouth. I take them in a combination B / iron supplement (Floravital), but for my daughter I purchased Thorne Stress B-Complex. I've found Thorne to be an excellent brand.

[Garga]

@gardenmom5  (or anyone else who might know) So...my dh was also thinking of taking B vitamins for other reasons (I think they help with tinnitus) and now after reading the above we’re all totally spooked.  This is super complicated and I’m barely understanding some of the terminology you’re using. 

Is there a person we can talk to about this?  Is this something nutritionists know?  I have a feeling our regular general med practitioner will not be well-versed in any of this.  Is there any kind of medical person who has dedicated their career to knowing this information and passing it on?  What kind of person would that be?  

Edited December 29, 2019 by Garga

[BlsdMama]

23 hours ago, Garga said:

I was thinking of getting some B vitamin supplements for my ds17.  He hates fruits and veggies and hasn’t eaten them pretty much ever, so he can’t get vitamins that way.  He has some anxiety issues and I was reading that B vitamins might be good for him.  You can get 8 B vitamins in a single pill as a complex and that sounded great.

But I’m looking on the sides of the bottles on Amazon, and some of the B vitamins are literally over 8000% of the daily value.  And others are over 4000% percent.  

And then I read a few negative comments on one bottle and it said there is cyanide in the pills?  And comments on another bottle talked about a synthetic something-or-other in the vitamin that stays in your liver and causes trouble later?

Remember back when all you did was take your Flintstone vitamin and life made sense?  😄  Yeah, those days are long gone and I don’t know how to figure out what to do next. 

Has anyone already researched all this and knows why these supplements would be multiple thousands higher than the daily value?  (Maybe I don’t know what daily value means?). Does anyone know of a reputable brand?  Is the cyanide thing something to worry about, or is it actually a normal thing?  

I don’t really know where to start to figure these things out. And no, he hasn’t had blood tests for his B levels. I just heard about B vitamins for anxiety, and so I looked at the bottles on Amazon as a starting point and immediately was confused.  

 

I think I'd hit this two directions - both supplemental and beginning to introduce new ways to eat foods.  Supplementation is always going to be inferior to the real thing.  Your gut microbiome needs the minerals, the fiber, and all the things we don't know yet that exist in greens.  They're finding more and more that our gut drastically affects our health and that vitamins aren't all they're cracked up to be.  That said, it's a challenge for me to influence even a very health conscious and nutrient aware 18yo - so there's there. (Roll eyes.)

B12 is something you really aren't going to OD on.  They're seeing benefit to massive (MASSIVE) doses of injected methylcobalamin (the best kind of B12) in ALS trials in Japan with no real side effects.  

Biotin is another - it's considered B7.

I'd supplement both of those along with magnesium and glutathione and probably beef organs. 

Truthfully, supplementation is necessary in an imperfect world and I would NOT have agreed with that statement even two years ago, insisting that a health conscious person could sufficiently eat, but I'm wary of that belief in real life application.  Multi-vitamins are generally not ideal because some nutrients block others from absorption.  Targeted supplementation and conscious diet are the solutions and you're right, it's complicated!  Amazon is getting more and more people/companies who are ripping people off and dangerously so.  The best bet is a direct purchase from a conscientious company.

[gardenmom5]

2 hours ago, Garga said:

@gardenmom5  (or anyone else who might know) So...my dh was also thinking of taking B vitamins for other reasons (I think they help with tinnitus) and now after reading the above we’re all totally spooked.  This is super complicated and I’m barely understanding some of the terminology you’re using. 

Is there a person we can talk to about this?  Is this something nutritionists know?  I have a feeling our regular general med practitioner will not be well-versed in any of this.  Is there any kind of medical person who has dedicated their career to knowing this information and passing it on?  What kind of person would that be?  

a naturopath.  a dietician who attended a college where naturopaths are taught.  (my niece-in-law is doing this now. at least some of her kids are compound heterozygous). (

it's not that complicated.  start with a good b-sup.  some good ones have been suggested.  stress uses b-vitamins, so if you've been under stress, your body needs more than average.

you only need extra mthf if you have the mutation.  even then, with a diet rich in vegetables, and low in processed food - people can do fine without it.  (mthf reduces the ability to absorb folate - specifically.  extra folate won't hurt you, your body will get rid of it.) for those with the mutation - folic acid can block absorption of real folate, and varying amounts are converted to folate.

[gardenmom5]

57 minutes ago, BlsdMama said:

I think I'd hit this two directions - both supplemental and beginning to introduce new ways to eat foods.  Supplementation is always going to be inferior to the real thing.  Your gut microbiome needs the minerals, the fiber, and all the things we don't know yet that exist in greens.  They're finding more and more that our gut drastically affects our health and that vitamins aren't all they're cracked up to be.  That said, it's a challenge for me to influence even a very health conscious and nutrient aware 18yo - so there's there. (Roll eyes.)

B12 is something you really aren't going to OD on.  They're seeing benefit to massive (MASSIVE) doses of injected methylcobalamin (the best kind of B12) in ALS trials in Japan with no real side effects.  

Biotin is another - it's considered B7.

I'd supplement both of those along with magnesium and glutathione and probably beef organs. 

Truthfully, supplementation is necessary in an imperfect world and I would NOT have agreed with that statement even two years ago, insisting that a health conscious person could sufficiently eat, but I'm wary of that belief in real life application.  Multi-vitamins are generally not ideal because some nutrients block others from absorption.  Targeted supplementation and conscious diet are the solutions and you're right, it's complicated!  Amazon is getting more and more people/companies who are ripping people off and dangerously so.  The best bet is a direct purchase from a conscientious company.

b12 has also shown benefit for kids on the spectrum.  the needles are very very small, and these are subcutaneous injections - into fat, not a muscle.

eta: - I'll agree with you there are a lot of low quality vitamins on the market.  that's why molecular forms matter, and their sources.

Edited December 29, 2019 by gardenmom5

[Pen]

1 hour ago, BlsdMama said:

I think I'd hit this two directions - both supplemental and beginning to introduce new ways to eat foods.  Supplementation is always going to be inferior to the real thing.  Your gut microbiome needs the minerals, the fiber, and all the things we don't know yet that exist in greens.  They're finding more and more that our gut drastically affects our health and that vitamins aren't all they're cracked up to be.  That said, it's a challenge for me to influence even a very health conscious and nutrient aware 18yo - so there's there. (Roll eyes.)

B12 is something you really aren't going to OD on.  They're seeing benefit to massive (MASSIVE) doses of injected methylcobalamin (the best kind of B12) in ALS trials in Japan with no real side effects.  

Biotin is another - it's considered B7.

I'd supplement both of those along with magnesium and glutathione and probably beef organs. 

Truthfully, supplementation is necessary in an imperfect world and I would NOT have agreed with that statement even two years ago, insisting that a health conscious person could sufficiently eat, but I'm wary of that belief in real life application.  Multi-vitamins are generally not ideal because some nutrients block others from absorption.  Targeted supplementation and conscious diet are the solutions and you're right, it's complicated!  Amazon is getting more and more people/companies who are ripping people off and dangerously so.  The best bet is a direct purchase from a conscientious company.

 

Yes 

 

for OP,

Japan has done a lot with B12 for a lot of conditions

Inositol (aka B9 maybe ?) has lots of studies showing benefits for anxiety — doses need to be high like a tablespoon or more (working up gradually to that much) but it tastes good (sweet) and can be bought by the pound.

I agree with BlsdMama about Glutathione, however, supplementing N acetyl Cysteine in studies shows better effects on raising glutathione than direct attempts to raise glutathione.  NAC has a lot of studies showin g anxiety reduction 

 

possibly feeling a bit bit better would then lead to more tolerance for eating better

[Murphy101]

I have done weekly or biweekly  b12 and bcomplex injections for over a year. No regrets.

[BlsdMama]

Wondering aloud if Leap2BFit would be a good supplement in this scenario.... Hm...

It tastes dreadful - like Tang.  But... (shrug)

[Pen]

On 12/28/2019 at 11:53 AM, Garga said:

I was thinking of getting some B vitamin supplements for my ds17.  He hates fruits and veggies and hasn’t eaten them pretty much ever, so he can’t get vitamins that way.  He has some anxiety issues and I was reading that B vitamins might be good for him.  You can get 8 B vitamins in a single pill as a complex and that sounded great.

But I’m looking on the sides of the bottles on Amazon, and some of the B vitamins are literally over 8000% of the daily value.  And others are over 4000% percent.  

And then I read a few negative comments on one bottle and it said there is cyanide in the pills?  And comments on another bottle talked about a synthetic something-or-other in the vitamin that stays in your liver and causes trouble later?

Remember back when all you did was take your Flintstone vitamin and life made sense?  😄  Yeah, those days are long gone and I don’t know how to figure out what to do next. 

Has anyone already researched all this and knows why these supplements would be multiple thousands higher than the daily value?  (Maybe I don’t know what daily value means?). Does anyone know of a reputable brand?  Is the cyanide thing something to worry about, or is it actually a normal thing?  

 

Someone brought this thread back to my attention with a like on one of my posts.

Did you get this worked out?

I take B vitamins where the B12 is methylcobalamin (not cyanocobalamin, not sure if cyanide is actually a problem, there are a lot of things made up of elements toxic alone but okay in a combined molecule, such as table salt.) Afaik the methyl form is better. 

In re Carol’s post below, the potentially dangerous B is Afaik B6 (not niacin which is quite safe and has been used at high doses for depression) .

 I have a preference for BHealthy from Emerald because the B6 is in the form P5P which I tolerate.  And also most of the B3 is as Niacinimide which doesn’t give me flushing. 

 

On 12/28/2019 at 11:53 AM, Garga said:

I don’t really know where to start to figure these things out. And no, he hasn’t had blood tests for his B levels. I just heard about B vitamins for anxiety, and so I looked at the bottles on Amazon as a starting point and immediately was confused.  

 

 

On 12/28/2019 at 3:16 PM, Carol in Cal. said:

The theory is that they are water soluble so they don't build up in your body, and also they are depleted particularly fast by stress, so you may need more than 'normal' if you are stressed.

In fact, there is one (niacin?) that causes irrevocable nerve damage if taken in high doses over a period of time.  And the MTFR thing makes me leery of them as supplements as does the question of whether the pills actually contain what they say they do, particularly if the source material is from China.  I'm not sure what the solution is.

 

[Garga]

2 hours ago, Pen said:

 

Did you get this worked out?

Not yet! I put it on my calendar to “figure out B vitamins” back when I started the thread.  And then I got worried that I’d do it wrong and figured I’d need to put in a good many hours of research and every week, I move the “figure out B vitamins” entry to the next week to worry about “later.”  

What I’ll probably do, either today or next Sunday, is re-read this thread and look at the recommendations given and then just take the plunge without the hours of research and buy something and see what happens.  

 

[itsheresomewhere]

I also use B-healthy.  It has made a huge difference in how I feel.  DD also takes it and we have seen how much it has helped with her.

[kbutton]

On 12/28/2019 at 6:50 PM, Pen said:

methylation may be an epigenetic change that can be caused by stress

That's an interesting tidbit of information! 

I am taking a Thorne B Complex. It's methylated. My understanding is that methylated B's don't hurt anyone; unmethylated B's are bad if you have the MTHFR problem. So, just get methylated and don't sweat it.

I seem to need B vitamins for metabolizing hormones properly (perimenopause is a pain), but I seem to be super sensitive. When I take B vitamins much at all, I don't sleep well. 

My nurse practitioner is switching me to a Thorne multi that has B vitamins in it in smaller dosage and suggesting I take one per day when the dose is two per day.

I am overly sensitive to lots and lots of things, while other things I can't seem to absorb well at all, like potassium and magnesium. I have to take a potassium supplement to feel okay. I can eat potassium-rich foods all day and not feel it, but taking a supplement with the same amount works like a charm.

We're all individuals. 

[Pen]

53 minutes ago, myblessings4 said:

Can anyone comment on how this compares to B-Healthy ingredients (not mg)?  It is from Klaire Labs, which we do have access to, and is their lowest dosing b complex.  Also, if any of you have any info on whether Klaire compares in general, with regards to honesty, ingredients, etc. 

 

The biggest thing jumping out at me is B6 as Pyridoxine versus B6 as p5p - that would be a problem for me, but may be fine for you.  

Emerald has no para...   PABA (last on list)    There are mixed opinions about it

[Pen]

1 hour ago, myblessings4 said:

How much inositol?  DD takes it, but we haven't gone beyond 500mg.  

 

Like OKBud, I take it as a powder and by the spoonful, not just 500mg

[Pen]

On 12/28/2019 at 3:22 PM, Garga said:

How does one know if one has the MTHF mutation?

 

2 hours ago, Garga said:

Not yet! I put it on my calendar to “figure out B vitamins” back when I started the thread.  And then I got worried that I’d do it wrong and figured I’d need to put in a good many hours of research and every week, I move the “figure out B vitamins” entry to the next week to worry about “later.”  

 

 

43 minutes ago, kbutton said:

That's an interesting tidbit of information! 

I am taking a Thorne B Complex. It's methylated. My understanding is that methylated B's don't hurt anyone; unmethylated B's are bad if you have the MTHFR problem. So, just get methylated and don't sweat it.

 

I agree with kbutton 

you can do that afaik by getting Emerald B-Healthy 

if in future yo decide to run dna and decide you’d be fine with other forms then you can do that

[Pen]

1 minute ago, myblessings4 said:

Thanks.  Why would that be a problem?

 

For me I don’t convert pyridoxine to P5P — a personal metabolic issue which you likely would not have 

I don’t personally avoid PABA in small amounts.  My other favorite B complex has 50 mg PABA. 

[Garga]

20 minutes ago, myblessings4 said:

I'm sorry, Garga!  I think we got sidetracked!  I've been trying to decide what to do with DD's b vitamins and then some of the other ones she takes we're mentioned.

I don’t mind!

[gardenmom5]

On 2/23/2020 at 12:27 PM, myblessings4 said:

Thanks.  Why would that be a problem?

your body still has to convert it to  a useable form.

It's one of my litmus tests - P5P, or move on.

I'm homozygous mthf, I also have to avoid anything with folic acid.  (those with an mthf mutation - can't use it, AND it will block the body from absorbing real folate.)

folic acid is 100% synthetic.