Third kid sleep issues, TIA

[lauraw4321]

I've forgotten how to check / revise my signature, but my third daughter is approaching age 6. She started off as a crib sleeper, but when she transitioned out of the crib and into her own bed, she ended up coming to bed with us nearly every night. At the time I was too exhausted to fight it. Soon she needed us to lie down with her in her bed to fall asleep, and would come into our bed when she woke up in the night.

I didn't allow this with my other two. One was just obedient and stayed in bed. The second came into our room a few times, and we put a small mattress on the floor for her. She did that for awhile and then grew out of it. But I screwed up with this one and let it go far too long.

We decided that we were done with this craziness beginning in March. She is absolutely horrible to sleep with - kicking, squirming, twisting, etc. We talked up the "bedtime" fairy who brings you treats if you stay in bed. We re-arranged her room (she was scared to be by the window). She shares with her 9 year old sister. We got them a nightlight / white noise machine. I downloaded guided meditation sleep podcasts. We have a routine we do every night.

Yet, here we are, 7 months later, and things aren't much better at all. She still starts screaming and running out of the room 85% of the time when we say goodnight. She wants someone to lie down with her. We have refused this, but often end up sitting beside her bed until she falls asleep. When she wakes up in the night, she either comes to get one of her parents, or crawls into bed with her 9 year old sister, which makes her sister cry.

When a kid is screaming about being "scared" with real, primal-looking fear, there is no way to "CIO." She just gets up. I can't hold her down. I tried the technique of just not engaging and putting her back in bed, but she did not ever stop (and it went on for 4 hours and kept the whole house up).

I finally called the pediatrician, and they were supposed to send me lists of therapists, but they haven't. I know I created this problem. But we are all exhausted, and there has to be some solution. 

She indicated that she might be open to the mattress on the floor thing (which would be fine), but we live in a different house now, and I'm not sure there's room or a safe way to do it (I worry about my DH stepping on her in the night). Any advice or BDTD is greatly appreciated. 

[alisoncooks]

When oldest was 3, we decided to try and break the "coming into mommy's bed in the middle of the night" issue. I don't remember the name of the book we followed, but it included the "no engaging" aspect. But there was starting out sitting by the bed, then after time sitting across the room, then by door, then outside open door, then outside door with it closed. It did take months...but it worked. 

[lauraw4321]

Thanks - there are already some great ideas here!

For the first falling asleep, I don't usually engage with her, but I will do the suggestion of leaving if she "isn't trying to fall asleep." 

I am doing the gradual exposure thing. For example,  if she asks for water, she has to stay in her bed while I go get it. She's becoming more able to do that. Same for if I have to step out to talk to her sister or some other activity. 

For the coming into the room, I like the idea of a blanket on the ground. I usually wake up when DH wakes up, so if he's up and she's there, I'm pretty certain I'll be awake enough to say "Don't step on E!" I may discuss that option with her.

I don't know what to do about the *fear* aspect. The weird thing is that my 11 year old is also having trouble sleeping and also says it's because she's scared. But she also refuses to have DD6 sleep with her because she's so rough to sleep with.

[alisoncooks]

8 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

"Super Nanny" used to do this all the time.  Very gradual exposures to kid in the room by themselves.  It always worked great with a kid who was not sharing a room.  I am not sure how it would work with a kid who shares a room with a 3.5yr older sibling.

 

But in general, yeah, graduated exposures like that help lots of people with lots of things that freak them out and give them anxiety.

Ah, maybe it was Super Nanny! I do remember watching that a few times when the girls were little...

[Pronghorn]

You can give her some formal settle-down time. Basically, you put her in bed and tell her you will be back in one minute and that she needs to work on settling down. Time yourself while she screams. Once you come back, sit with her until she is asleep. Once she can handle one minute without panic, up it to two, then later to three. I think I gradually increased it to twenty minutes and then stopped. If she could not fall asleep in twenty minutes, she could still count on my help. This worked for our child, who truly had a deep fear of sleep. I think in her case it took six months to get up to twenty minutes of settling down time.

[Tanaqui]

You did not create this problem. This is not your fault. Your third kid has a bedtime issue that the other two don't have, and you've done your best.

[Farrar]

She's a little on the young end, but education about how sleep works is a big part of sleep therapy for kids. It was the aspect that helped my non-sleeper the most. He needed to understand that it's normal to cycle and wake up in the night and then go back to sleep, for example.

I second Tanaqui that you are not at fault. Some kids just have trouble sleeping. Some kids have anxiety. You're not the cause. The best thing you can do for the anxiety part is make her feel secure. That's going to mean a very slow exposure, I think. You'll have to keep at it.

[Terabith]

Honestly....I have a kid who did not sleep by herself until close to 11.  Maybe 10?  I don't remember.  Even at 14 she wants someone to lay down with her at night about 50% of the time.  But at six?  I truly don't think there was anything in the world that have kept her in her own bed by herself.  She was genuinely terrified.  She had her own bed in our room, but she was in our bed a LOT of the time.  She is on the spectrum and has a severe anxiety disorder, but even medicated, she was afraid of the dark.  She's old enough now that she can verbalize what her brain does at night.  It's pretty terrifying.  Her room now has a mattress on the floor (nothing can get under it) and strategically placed monster traps that will make lots of noise and wake her up if they disturb it.  What you're describing sounds like genuine anxiety, not something you created.  And, I really don't think, something you can discipline out of her.  You could make her stay in her own bed, sure.  But if she's as afraid as you describe, I don't think you could make her SLEEP there.  ETA:  This child was close to ten before she would voluntarily spend time in a room alone, even during the daytime, let alone at night.

I'm on team "mattress on the floor of your room."  And team "educate about how everyone needs sleep."  But....I don't think this is something that you can (or should) try to discipline.  Anxiety is awful.  

Edited October 30, 2019 by Terabith

[Ottakee]

Not sure if it would help but my high anxiety kids liked a string of Christmas lights up around the room.

I also did the gradual sit, leave the room a moment and come back, leave for a minute, then a few more....or I have sat outside a bedroom with the door open and read my book.  

[ktgrok]

3 hours ago, alisoncooks said:

When oldest was 3, we decided to try and break the "coming into mommy's bed in the middle of the night" issue. I don't remember the name of the book we followed, but it included the "no engaging" aspect. But there was starting out sitting by the bed, then after time sitting across the room, then by door, then outside open door, then outside door with it closed. It did take months...but it worked. 

Yup. We did this as well. i started out sitting on the bed, but not touching the child. Then sitting next to the bed. Then sitting near the doorway. Then sitting in the doorway. Then getting up to get a drink and coming back, etc etc. 

45 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

You did not create this problem. This is not your fault. Your third kid has a bedtime issue that the other two don't have, and you've done your best.

Truth. 

Also, can she explain what is scaring her? 

Would a mattress on the floor next to her sister's bed work? So she's right next to sister's bed, but not IN her sister's bed?

Would she sleep on a couch in the living room? 

I do sympathize. My just turned 7 yr old has anxiety around sleep and sometimes ends up sleeping on a couch, or if he has a nightmare he will sleep on the couch and I'll sleep on a mattress next to it, or vice versa. It's close enough to reach down and touch me if he needs to, but not touching, so I don't get kicked all night. 

[catz]

I agree that this this sounds like legitimate anxiety.  So I do think following up with a professional is a great idea.  

One of my kids leans a bit anxious.  One thing I did allow for my kids starting about age 5 is at bed time they could be awake with soft light on if they were laying in bed reading or writing/coloring.  That rarely lasted more than 30 minutes until they'd fall asleep.  We did a routine.  They each had a waterbottle they could have next to their bed that would have ice in them all night.  We did a nightly routine together to get ready.  We did have to sit with DD until she was about 4, but we gradually got away from that by allowing her books.  Both my kids had a little lamp we'd allow to be on all night too so if they woke up it would not be pitch black.  We also let them have an iPod (back in the day) with soft music playing.

ETA - our bedroom is right next to my daughter's.  So I'd often go in my room after she was in bed and read, fold laundry, watch a movie, etc.  So she could hear me shuffling around and moving.  And if I heard her get out of bed, I'd call out to her.  

Edited October 30, 2019 by FuzzyCatz

[Joker]

I was a kid who was truly terrified at night. My parents weren't the type to allow me to sleep on their floor and I have awful memories of those years. 

I knew I would never force my dc to sleep on their own because of it. I had one who slept on our floor off and on until about 13 and the other who rarely did it and stopped for good around 8 years old. We never did a mattress but there were always pillows and blankets if they wanted.

Neither of them have night time or being alone fears anymore. 

You didn't cause this. Some kids just struggle with these types of fears longer. Also, my parents never (unless we were super sick) allowed us to sleep in their room so I know it wasn't something they caused early on and tried to fix. I was the only one of my siblings with the problem.

Edited October 30, 2019 by Joker

[Terabith]

33 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

Yikes, bad habits.  Sorry they’re coming back to bite you.

My only recommendation is to take your phone in there and sit in her room for awhile until she falls asleep, then gradually do it less and less time.  Maybe even set a timer on your phone and kiss her goodnight when it is done.  But no nonsense weaning time I’d say, and if she runs into your room screaming you walk her back to hers and pat her gently, leaving again when she is calm. Rinse and repeat.  It won’t keep up with the same intensity forever but it may be a rough few weeks.

I had a kid stay awake and screaming for 48 hours once.  There was no way to wean her gently and slowly.  I don’t think that’s typical, but I think it’s more common than people realize, because parents don’t usually talk about it.  

[ktgrok]

Looking at this from a non emotional POV, I'd say there are two potential issues. Is she afraid to sleep alone, or is she afraid to sleep in her room? As in, is she fine to sleep alone but in a different room - say fall asleep on your bed, even if you are in the living room? Or is she okay sleeping in her room, your room, wherever but only if you are with her? Or both?

If both, I'd work on those separately. So either working on her sleeping alone but in a different room, or with you in the room in her room. If it is two fears then trying to attack both at once will be too hard for her. One at a time. 

[Terabith]

2 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

So did you just let her scream?  I’m not comfortable with that without me checking in frequently. Especially a neurotypical six year old, a firm but steady and slow approach is usually pretty successful and less difficult on both mom and kiddo if it is at all possible.

Well, I wasn’t trying to let her scream.  She was about four years old.  We kept walking her back to her bed and telling her she had to stay in her bed.  We were following the advice of experts.  That was really dumb.  My instincts were saying she wasn’t ready to sleep alone and was genuinely terrified. The expert said it was manipulation.  We were constantly checking, patting, reassuring.  But she didn’t sleep for almost three days, until we put her in our bed with me laying down next to her, holding her.  I don’t think it’s typical.  But anxiety is awful and can be extreme.  

[wendyroo]

What time does she go to sleep and what does her bedtime routine look like?

Two of my kiddos (both with ASD) have major anxiety and sleep issues.  For them, a very consistent bedtime routine is crucial.  Their bodies and minds need a lot of cuing as to what is coming up and what is expected of them.

Also, for them, a too late bedtime is disastrous.  If they are even a little overtired at bedtime then they will have a lot of trouble falling asleep and they will wake up many times over the night and struggle to fall back to sleep.

Wendy

[lauraw4321]

A little update. We did our routine (pjs, brush teeth, potty, lay down for 17 minutes of reading, lights out, Turn in meditation app, I sit beside her bed). So she resisted as usual, but went to sleep. This starts at 8:00 and was done around 8:30. She was asleep by 8:50. 

She woke up around 3 and screamed until around 4. My husband agreed to sleep in her sister’s bed, which is right beside her, but that was not close enough because she wanted his body in her bed (thus the screaming). Her sister moved to her other sister’s bed, but she screamed loud enough to keep the whole house up. I offered for her to sleep on the floor in our room, but she only wanted someone in the bed. All I can do is hope eventually the practice of falling asleep without someone in her bed will allow her to go back to sleep at night. 😓 

[Mbelle]

I haven't read all the replies, but my 3rd child was my very best sleeper....until he wasn't! 

He was close to 5 when this happened.  He refused to actually get in bed even though I always lay down with him till he went to sleep.  I actually called the pediatrician, and she said a sleep regression which I found a bit far fetched for a 5 year old, but maybe she was right when I look back on it.

I was desperate and did a google search.   Get Out of Bed passes are what worked for us,  These were 3 index cards which he could use to get out of bed and that was it. They suggested one time only, but I'm a sucker so I gave 3 passes.  He took to it immediatly and would get in bed and then he loved being able to get out a few times.  It sounds totally silly, but it was like magic.   

Sometimes he will come and get in our bed in the middle of the night for one to two nights, but then a couple of months go by before it happens again, if I'm not too tired I take him back.  He's 7 now.

[ktgrok]

36 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

Oh man that sounds like a rough night.

So, talk to me about the screaming.  Was it just like straight screaming, shrill, out of control, etc?  If so.....are you sure she was actually awake and not still asleep?  And if she WAS awake, but still in full on freaked out, have you looked up night terrors?  If that's what is going on, your best approach might actually be to completely wake her up and pull her fully out of all the bed rooms, and work to make her calm first.  Maybe make her go potty, sit with you or your DH on the couch in a darkened living room, or maybe even a brightly lit room, read a story or watch a quiet tv show (something like Fantasia or something)  Maybe do a glass of water, or a cup of milk/chocolate milk/hot chocolate. 

 

 

 

Yeah, I was wondering about night terrors or at least nightmares as well. Night terrors and "confusional arousals" which is the less severe form, the kid seems awake, can interact with you sort of, but isn't quite making sense. They look a bit possessed, honestly. 

[Terabith]

4 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

Yeah, I was wondering about night terrors or at least nightmares as well. Night terrors and "confusional arousals" which is the less severe form, the kid seems awake, can interact with you sort of, but isn't quite making sense. They look a bit possessed, honestly. 

Yup.  My same kid who didn't sleep and was terrified to be alone also had a stretch of night terrors.  Those were terrifying for us.  The first time they happened, I honestly thought she was having a seizure.  She acted so WRONG that we almost took her to the ER.  Nope.  Night terrors.  

[lauraw4321]

I’m pretty sure this isn’t night terrors. It goes like this: 

I’m scared!

I’m sorry. I’m right here beside you. 

No, I need you to lay down with me. 

No, I can lay in this bed, but you need to sleep in your own bed. 

But I’m scared!

Could we take some deep breaths?

No!  I’m too scared!

I know you are scared. I’m right here to keep you safe.

But I need you with me!

And so on.  We are calm and quiet and she alternates between a raised voice and outright screaming.  She was so exhausted last night once we finally got her to lie down, she was asleep in about 2 minutes. 

 

[ktgrok]

10 hours ago, Terabith said:

Yup.  My same kid who didn't sleep and was terrified to be alone also had a stretch of night terrors.  Those were terrifying for us.  The first time they happened, I honestly thought she was having a seizure.  She acted so WRONG that we almost took her to the ER.  Nope.  Night terrors.  

Yes! The altered consciousness thing does look a bit like a seizure! Mine has the confusional arousal, not night terrors, so no screaming, but it is FREAKY. Thankfully, I know that my side of the family all sleep walk, sleep talk, etc so knew what it was. But a few times - I won't lie, I made the sign of the cross over her, lol. She just would not wake up, but was not settling down, and it had been going on for 10 minutes and I was freaking out! 

We finally figured out that often getting her to drink cold water would wake her up, and she mostly outgrew it, but a week ago I caught her sleep walking out the front door!!! 

[ktgrok]

Ok, with that explanation I have more advice. Please be aware, the disclaimer is my advice comes from my knowledge of animal behavior, veterinary behavior lectures/books/conferences....so take that as you will, but learning theory is learning theory, lol. 

So, you need to desensitize, but what you are actually doing is the opposite. You seem to be trying "flooding" which CAN work...but if you give in it actually makes it worse and reinforces the fear pathways in the brain. What i mean is, if you expose someone to something they are afraid of and don't let up until they are no longer afraid that will  work - that's flooding. BUT - most of the time that is impractical for a number of reasons and instead they get exposed, get scared, and now have reinforced in their brain that the thing is in fact scary. 

Example of flooding: Person is afraid of spiders. Person is put in a tank of spiders until they stop screaming and no longer are afraid. 

Misuse of flooding: Person is afraid of spiders. Person is put in a tank of spiders. Person freaks out, and finally you pull them out of the tank. They are now MORE afraid of spiders than when they went in. They are in fact, sensitized to spiders. 

Desensitization: You stay UNDER threshold. So spider is actually a cuddly soft stuffed animal spider, and person gets to pet it and laugh at it. Then after a few days of carrying around stuffed spider you show them a plastic spider ring, and they are a bit uncomfortable but NOT scared and touch it, and eventually wear it. Then you get a realistic fake spider and show them that, and they get used to it, etc etc building up gradually. Key is they stay UNDER threshold - they never get scared. By doing that you retrain those brain pathways to not link fear with the spider. 

Counterconditioning : you pair the feared object with something good. This would be your attempt at the bedtime fairy who brings things. This can work, but must be paired usually with desensitization, otherwise can cause sensitization as they try to overcome the fear due to wanting the treat but fail, making them feel worse. 

So...all that said, I'd back WAY up. At what point is she comfortable? You laying beside her? Start over. Do that for one week. No drama, no bribery, no attempting to get her to sleep on her own. You get into a nice routine and then lay with her until she sleeps. This lets her stop associating her bed with fear/drama/etc. 

Then once she sleeps nicely with no fuss every night with you beside her, THEN you start just sitting in the bed, with say your hand on her leg or arm. She may be a bit less comfortable, but hopefully has learned to associate bedtime with peace at this part and can handle it. Only when she seems relaxed doing that would you move to not touching her, etc. 

All this assumes ACTUAL fear. And if she has nightmares, she may seriously have fear about going to sleep. It can be awful. 

This path WILL take a long time, months maybe, although often once you get past the first two steps or so it goes very fast. But better than years of this continuing, right?

[hippiemamato3]

On 10/29/2019 at 11:21 PM, Arctic Mama said:

Yikes, bad habits.  Sorry they’re coming back to bite you.

My only recommendation is to take your phone in there and sit in her room for awhile until she falls asleep, then gradually do it less and less time.  Maybe even set a timer on your phone and kiss her goodnight when it is done.  But no nonsense weaning time I’d say, and if she runs into your room screaming you walk her back to hers and pat her gently, leaving again when she is calm. Rinse and repeat.  It won’t keep up with the same intensity forever but it may be a rough few weeks.

It's not a bad habit to gently and lovingly give your child what they need at bedtime by staying with them. Anxiety isn't about bad habits, and it doesn't help to try to place blame on the OP. My DD10 has issues with being in her room alone at night, too, and we are currently seeking counseling for it. It's not your child's fault, and it's not your fault - every kid has different needs. Meeting those needs is what makes a good parent. 

[hippiemamato3]

1 minute ago, Arctic Mama said:

What I meant was reinforcing a ‘solution’ over time with sleep that wasn’t something the parent wanted to follow through on long term. ‘Begin as you mean to go on’ is important, whatever method you settle on.  Changing something that you unintentionally or reluctantly began is a lot harder than figuring out the general limits of what you and your family are comfortable with and working backwards from there.

Meh not really. You learn as you go along. Finding out a child has anxiety changes the way you have to parent and how you will handle things. It has nothing to do with settling on something and sticking with it. If it's not working, you change it. 

[cabercro]

My daughter is much younger (almost 2), so no true BTDT advice, but we did just go through the Supernanny-style fade out to get her to fall asleep alone instead of being held.

I know it may not help since yours is much older, but what helped my kid the most was having a monitor with a talk feature and showing her ahead of time how it worked. (Putting her in her crib and letting her see herself on the screen, letting her talk on it and hear how it sounded in her room, walking around the house with it while she sat in her crib and letting her see that she could "talk" to me and I could hear her and talk back from outside her room). I think it helps her feel less "alone", even though we're not in the room with her. The few times she's woken up upset, we've been able to reassure her through the monitor without going back in. 

Again, that may feel way too babyish for your child, but just in case it helps!

[Tanaqui]

1 hour ago, Arctic Mama said:

What I meant was reinforcing a ‘solution’ over time with sleep that wasn’t something the parent wanted to follow through on long term. ‘Begin as you mean to go on’ is important, whatever method you settle on.  Changing something that you unintentionally or reluctantly began is a lot harder than figuring out the general limits of what you and your family are comfortable with and working backwards from there.

 

Honestly, given what the OP describes, I just don't think that starting off with something less gentle would've worked. This is not the OP's fault. Kindness and compassion towards your child is not a 'bad habit' - and this child sounds like she is REALLY scared. If anything, starting off with "no nonsense weaning time" might have made it even worse.

This sounds like an unusual situation, which means that the usual techniques are just not gonna do the trick.

Edited October 31, 2019 by Tanaqui

[katilac]

3 hours ago, cabercro said:

Again, that may feel way too babyish for your child, but just in case it helps!

I would try this. Overcome the babyish factor by using a webcam instead of a baby monitor. We use them for our pets, they aren't terribly expensive. We can see them, hear them, and talk to them. You might also consider an old phone for a limited amount of time (then transition to only webcam), better picture and easier to have a conversation. Would it be a win if she could Facetime for comfort while staying in bed? That also opens the possibility of having webcams in other parts of the house that she can view. If she can talk to a parent for comfort when the fear first begins, maybe look at other parts of the house and see that nothing weird is going on, maybe? 

OP, how do you feel about pets? And pets in the bed? Cuddling a living, breathing, non-human could be part of a long-solution. I'd personally be willing to throw a couple of kittens at this problem, but we like animals in the house. 

Is there another room they could try sleeping in? As a kid, I would wake up and go sleep on the sofa all. the. time. I shared a room and a bed, but, if I got scared, that change of scenery helped even though I was then alone. If there's a spare room or office or anything, I might try leaving some blankets/pillows in there. Choice can be very empowering. And, if it seems to make a big difference, there may be something about the current room that is oddly scary in a way they can't articulate.  Would it be possible to paint and somewhat rearrange the room? Burn some sage to get rid of the bad mojo, lol? Make a deal out of planning and working on it, like when you have kids cook so they're open to new food? Make a deal about how lovely and safe the room will be? As she was scared to sleep by the window, I'd probably buy some cheap alarms for it. 

Might they like one of those tents that go on the bed? An enclosed space can seem safer. Maybe buy a special new plush to cuddle, supply them with those soft glow lamps that run on batteries?

For the bed tents, they have the typical kid kind but also much nicer ones that are popular in dorm rooms: https://smile.amazon.com/Alvantor-Sleeping-Portable-Curtains-Breathable/dp/B07GGSRJQV/ref=sr_1_2?keywords=bed+tent&qid=1572560339&sr=8-2

Edited October 31, 2019 by katilac

[lauraw4321]

Thanks again for more responses. She can go to our guest bed if she wanted, but won’t unless someone goes with her. 

At the suggestion of her pediatrician, I’m going to reach out to her school counselor for help. 

I got her to fall asleep without me laying down beside her, but I was so tired at 2 when she came in, I just let her stay. It’s going to be a long time before we fully figure this one out, I think.