We got our results and diagnosis - would love curriculum recs

[PeterPan]

Yes, whatever was WORKING continue doing.

By calculating, you mean fact speed? Yeah, it's a pit. I'm doing Tang Math right now with ds. I'm not saying it's better or worse or effective for computation, but at least it's kind of fun and makes them think. So we do the Tang Math pages just as kind of a warm-up in addition to the word problem workbook and the conceptual instruction. 

This is also an age where you can (shhh) keep a calculator around. If her working memory drops and her processing speed bogs down, then sometimes using a calculator is a better way to get to the other side. Just depends on what the point is of what you're doing.

[Runningmom80]

Yes, fact speed. I haven't heard of Tang, I will look into it! 

 

She really liked Singapore so I hesitate to switch her. It sounds like I can keep going for now and at least now I know what to look for if she runs into trouble. 

 

[PeterPan]

I think we finally need to have perfection. If we could just get beyond this imperfection, with imperfect evals and imperfect curriculum and an imperfect DSM, we could finally all be perfect, right? 

Well you got evals, you got data. It will take some space for you to get your confidence on and go ok, I know my kid, people are wrong about some things, this is what I'm deciding to do. I think it doesn't HURT to do an OT eval and see what the OT thinks. I think there's the question of how typing will go with that low VMI. I think there are questions like retained reflexes and narrative language. 

At least this chick didn't tell you you're utterly incompetent and incapable of intervening. I actually paid MONEY to be told that, if you can imagine. If you wonder why I think a particular psych has ears and a tail, well there you go. That took a while to recover from. Can't remember if I used chocolate or Olive Garden or what, lol. Mainly the ladies on the board here had to slap me up a bit and say be strong, he doesn't know you, he's speaking to the general and doesn't know your specifics. 

People can be wrong. These people see parts. Just the fact that they blow you off or don't refer off is evidence of that. And there's sort of this inflation, like oh I have this degree, I ran these tests. Well the people doing the intervention pick up a lot of subtleties. It's ok to try something and be wrong or be like ok, got that info, thanks, not going to do that therapy. 

Hopefully a little emotional distance will help smooth this out for you. It's ok to say the numbers were exactly what they were. She doesn't have to fit in a box. It's ok to do the intervention you think ought to happen. Excellent interventions are fine for anyone. It's not like you're pouring draino down her. 

[PeterPan]

2 minutes ago, Runningmom80 said:

Yes, fact speed. I haven't heard of Tang, I will look into it! 

What was her processing speed?

Yeah, if she liked SM, I'd stick with it till it stops working. 

[Runningmom80]

3 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

I think we finally need to have perfection. If we could just get beyond this imperfection, with imperfect evals and imperfect curriculum and an imperfect DSM, we could finally all be perfect, right? 

Well you got evals, you got data. It will take some space for you to get your confidence on and go ok, I know my kid, people are wrong about some things, this is what I'm deciding to do. I think it doesn't HURT to do an OT eval and see what the OT thinks. I think there's the question of how typing will go with that low VMI. I think there are questions like retained reflexes and narrative language. 

At least this chick didn't tell you you're utterly incompetent and incapable of intervening. I actually paid MONEY to be told that, if you can imagine. If you wonder why I think a particular psych has ears and a tail, well there you go. That took a while to recover from. Can't remember if I used chocolate or Olive Garden or what, lol. Mainly the ladies on the board here had to slap me up a bit and say be strong, he doesn't know you, he's speaking to the general and doesn't know your specifics. 

People can be wrong. These people see parts. Just the fact that they blow you off or don't refer off is evidence of that. And there's sort of this inflation, like oh I have this degree, I ran these tests. Well the people doing the intervention pick up a lot of subtleties. It's ok to try something and be wrong or be like ok, got that info, thanks, not going to do that therapy. 

Hopefully a little emotional distance will help smooth this out for you. It's ok to say the numbers were exactly what they were. She doesn't have to fit in a box. It's ok to do the intervention you think ought to happen. Excellent interventions are fine for anyone. It's not like you're pouring draino down her. 

 

Yes, this is all true. Thank you. 

[Runningmom80]

7 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

What was her processing speed?

Yeah, if she liked SM, I'd stick with it till it stops working. 

 

It was her lowest, 103/ 58th percentile. I didn't even catch that.

And her WM was 122 / 93rd percentile. That seems weird to me. (I thought processing drags working memory and vice versa) She's very interesting! 

WMI - digit span 13 Picture span 15

PSI - coding 10 symbol search 11

Edited April 18, 2019 by Runningmom80

[Lecka]

Well it is a lot of new information.

I think you can use what you were using that was working.  And then just see!  There are a lot of ways to try to adapt output, that can go with a lot of things.  

It can be anything from doing some things on a white board and you writing some/all steps.  Or using different paper with more lines.  Or bigger font.  Or adding in extra practice for computation while continuing on with your previous program.

If you read about dyslexia some kids also have weaknesses with computation but strengths with conceptual math, so if that might be the case, you can keep going with what is going well and then add in review or extra practice with some things that are “supposed to be” done with. 

A lot of “supposed to be” things may not be the way they are expected, but adapting is good and being flexible is good.  

Just for example long division was a nightmare here, and then — aren’t decimals supposed to be harder?  No, decimals were much easier, it was a relief.  There can be things like that where people try moving on with some review, instead of staying on one thing forever and ever.  But then you can see if it is possible to keep going with review, or if it really is something where you need to do things to mastery before moving on.

I think here — it can look like moving on in some things, and in other things, it being better not to move on even if it is supposed to be good enough to move on, just from knowing more practice than usual is going to be needed.  

But definitely don’t hold kids back over computation, if you can keep going and still spend time on computation.  

[PeterPan]

1 minute ago, Runningmom80 said:

 

It was her lowest, 103/ 58th percentile. I didn't even catch that.

And THAT is probably your most important number out of all this. That processing speed is going to affect EVERYTHING for the rest of her life. You can change decoding, but processing speed is harder. We've seen some bumps with metronome work, and there's the idea that meds for the ADHD bumps them. Did the psych do ANYTHING besides WISC??? Was he asleep?? Not even an ADHD screener? ADHD is comorbid so often, that's just irresponsible not to run it. Whatever.

And yes processing speed is a relative disability, unlike SLDs anymore. So if her IQ is in the gifted range and her processing speed is that low, it's a relative disability.

Ok, now about your ps. There are some ps that are using excellent materials for intervention right now. A district near us has an OG-certified tutor who is brilliant and does amazing intervention. I would not completely assume they'd screw it up. It's likely they would, but it would be interesting just to ASK what systems they use for reading intervention.

[PeterPan]

https://tangmath.com/products/subscription?variant=12405989376035  

I'm using Tangy Tuesday, pack 3, and dumping the Grid Lock page. You can see samples to see what you think. The guy tries and it's convenient. His directions are convoluted and I think his word problems suck. Or more politely, there are better resources. But the stuff we're using is fine, good, makes him think, and isn't too much.

[Runningmom80]

21 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

And THAT is probably your most important number out of all this. That processing speed is going to affect EVERYTHING for the rest of her life. You can change decoding, but processing speed is harder. We've seen some bumps with metronome work, and there's the idea that meds for the ADHD bumps them. Did the psych do ANYTHING besides WISC??? Was he asleep?? Not even an ADHD screener? ADHD is comorbid so often, that's just irresponsible not to run it. Whatever.

And yes processing speed is a relative disability, unlike SLDs anymore. So if her IQ is in the gifted range and her processing speed is that low, it's a relative disability.

Ok, now about your ps. There are some ps that are using excellent materials for intervention right now. A district near us has an OG-certified tutor who is brilliant and does amazing intervention. I would not completely assume they'd screw it up. It's likely they would, but it would be interesting just to ASK what systems they use for reading intervention.

 

Both of them said her attention was great. Is processing speed always a matter of attention? I don't notice her to have attention problems and neither does her teacher. (Not that that means it's not there.)

 

ETA: he only did the WISC

Edited April 18, 2019 by Runningmom80

[Lecka]

I am a fan of Reflex math.  It has a free trial.  If it goes too fast for her I would not do it.  I typed for my son part of time time he did it.  

Also — as something to consider, at a certain point you can move on to multiplication and division, and then go back to addition and subtraction later.  

My 8th grader was not really solid on it all until he was older, and we worked on it and took breaks and worked on to again (etc).  He also would forget some he had known.  

It’s okay.  

It is not worth holding back her overall math progress for sure!  It can just take longer for things that are “supposed to be” learned by some certain age.  

[PeterPan]

There's a small app Fast Facts Math that I used with ds. 

No, processing speed is just processing speed. So hers is low relative to IQ. It's not dreadfully low, but it's low. Just means she might need extra time as things get harder or there's more processing. As she tries to do the things she's capable of doing, she might need a little extra time. It's just something to watch. Might or might not need accommodations at some point.

[prairiewindmomma]

1 hour ago, Lecka said:

Typing is amazing here.

My 8th grader just went out with friends yesterday and his bike-riding was not as good as his friends, when I picked him up his friend commented to me that it took them much longer than it should have and that my son was swerving more than he should (they rode on a wide shoulder along a road).  

This is the first time in a while there has been something like this, but it used to be all the time.

I don’t know what a next step is for us, if this is a problem because I don’t know if he will get invited again for bike riding, or not a big deal if he does other things instead with the same kids.

Probably our next step is see what he wants to do (if he wants to try to practice more) and be glad it isn’t a huge obstacle in his life.   

Lecka--can I offer an encouraging story about bike riding?

My kid could not ride a bike at all at 11. At all. We had done OT to work on balance and core strength and the coordination just wasn't happening. At 12, he was invited to go mountain biking with a group of friends. He wanted to buy a bike. We bought him a bike. It was kind of a train wreck watching him learn to get on and off of the bike. He could kind of pedal, but couldn't pedal and steer at the same time. Three weeks later, he went mountain biking. We--among the parents---arranged for the dads to go too just in case this went badly for ds.  He was not the worst biker there.   (Like, seriously, that was the measure of success.)  A year later, at 13, he zips around everywhere on a bike. 

Don't be surprised if someday the cosmic stars align and he suddenly "gets" it.

Shoe tying *still* isn't happening here....but we win some and we lose some.

ETA: pedal not peddle---multitasking while ds is doing economics isn't going well. 🙂 

Edited April 18, 2019 by prairiewindmomma

[prairiewindmomma]

Processing speed is not a matter of attention here. It is slow, painfully slow. We took him to an attention specialist--no attention issues....things just don't fire rapidly.  Interestingly, if we put a 60bpm rhythm behind him or do some other rhythmic activity beforehand, we see a short, temporary bump in processing power.

[Lecka]

Thanks for the encouragement about bike riding 🙂

We have an awkward set-up right now, because we live on a highway and I drive him and his bike on post to ride with his friends there.  Usually they are just riding up and down the street where kids live, so this is the first time they have ridden very far.  

But I have known he still wasn’t very good.  

But next year we are going to move into a town where he can ride around the neighborhood.  

I can see this summer too, if he is interested in riding on some bike paths.  

He has had a big breakthrough with swimming last year too, he can swim a breast stroke now.  

 

[prairiewindmomma]

As far as spelling goes, we bought and sold all of the things with ds:

Sequential Spelling---pre-AAS, this was the go-to recommended program for dyslexics. Ds would memorize the spelling pattern family and reapply the pattern but nothing carried over to every day writing. What I learned from this program? Use a dry erase board and put the root base word in red. Using color and using dry erase made writing easier. When oral spelling wasn't going well and we had to go to written, we used this technique.

Spelling Workout--he liked having some activities (puzzles, games, interactive) but the writing became overkill. I scribed. He learned some greek root words. Mixed bag, but this didn't move at the speed he wanted/needed to move at. What I learned from the program? Mix it up and make spelling fun. Drill and kill kills, iykwim.

All About Spelling--the new super sparkly shiny OG program. Too many moving pieces. He hated the tiles because scanning for them was work. This didn't move as fast as his brain, and he just wanted to orally spell everything.

Spelling Power--we actually ended up going back to this, which was a total surprise. I got this in Ye Olden Days (2003) and it was a last minute day of desperation when I asked him if he wanted to try this since I already had it on the shelf. We did this from Level C (where he tested in) to Level K at which point I declared him literate and capable of spelling and free from spelling practice (end of 6th grade). I still see spelling errors in his written work, but no worse than the average adult. What worked? short defined work task, easily done all orally, can move at the speed we wanted, task cards brought games and ideas to the table...

 

[Runningmom80]

Thank you! This is all helpful advice. Funny about AAS, DD HATED the tiles and preferred to write! That makes sense about the scanning. 

[prairiewindmomma]

Math--if Singapore is working, stick with it.  We have some serious math issues here.  Of the programs, for a dysgraphic kid who may also have vision issues---look at CLE and MUS if you ever need to switch.  Work on making the basic math facts fluent if you can, but if you don't get much traction, hand a calculator over and move on. Ds still can't do long division or long multiplication and it's not the end of the world. I'm more worried about him getting up through Algebra 2 (which is needed for high school graduation). Looking at my older son's work (he's finishing up pre-calculus right now)---calculator work is fine; being able to keep track of multi-step processes and seeing what needs to happen next is more important.

[Runningmom80]

Does anyone have an opinion of RS math for a kid like this? She's very kinesthetic, gymnast and soccer player. she likes play doh and thinking putty and taking things apart/destroying them. I'm wondering if Multisensory would help.

[Lecka]

Honestly if SM is working, I would not change it.  

You may add to it and you could add in some things from RS without changing to it.  

You can bring in extras for sure, but if SM is working then it is working.  

Plus if she didn’t like the tiles for AAS then you don’t know that she would just take to it, I think.

I think you can try and see some things prior to switching, though, if you do want to switch.

But SM is a good math program also, you know?  

[Runningmom80]

Good points!

[Lecka]

I think maybe make a list of things going well in math and things that are issues in math.

For the things going well — maybe SM is working great for her.  

Then for the issues:  for some, no matter what curriculum you might be adapting or going through more than one thing over time.  

And for some, you might be adapting how you do some of the work.  Maybe you do more together, make more lines, do less, work on a white board, etc etc etc.  There are a lot of things like this you might do with any program.  

But changing a curriculum is a big step and will have a learning curve for you, and it is not necessary if what she has basically works for her.  

And then if you need to adapt in certain ways, that is going to be the case with any curriculum. 

You can also do things like add a short review or math facts practice.  You would not need to change curriculums to do that.  And — it may be needed. 

If you start to feel like SM is just not going that well, that is different.  

If it’s going well but it isn’t able to be an all-in-one for her, I think that by itself isn’t a reason to change.  

[Runningmom80]

Her and her twin REALLY love math games so I think I'll just have a stock pile of ideas and hope that helps with the facts. Her facts aren't horrible, just a weakness. 

[Lecka]

I think that sounds good.  

[prairiewindmomma]

3 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Ok, I'm taking a deep breath here, because you're enlightening me. You're saying even if I get the VMI scores up it will still be hard? FOO, FOO, FOO. Did I mention foo?

That has been our experience.  I think having good VMI carries over into other parts of life in a beneficial way. We've seen a decrease in head wounds and other injuries from not running into things (and learning to duck from moving things).  😂

Oh well, so we take a deep breath and move on. What's another bit of tech between friends. As you say, life goes on. So fine, we'll do what we can. And yes, ds is finally again choosing to write on his own. I force nothing, ask for nothing, because dragon/forced writing shut him down before. If HE picks up the paper and tries to write the T/F or circle or whatever, I'm like fine. HE sometimes chooses now to write small amounts of words to get his thoughts out. 

Yeah, this whole compliance thing has been interesting for me. Ds can be a very compliant kid. Like, he CAN write in perfectly fluent cursive. He chooses not to, though, when he writes for himself.  It bugs the heck out of me because he turns in totally illegible homework....but he can either write beautifully or he can do content. He can't do both. Because handwriting never became automatic for him, he'd rather focus on getting content out rather than having it be beautiful.  The amount of effort it takes for him to write neatly is crazy. They did timed tests--how quickly and accurately he could print, write in cursive, type or dictate---it TOTALLY makes sense for him to dictate everything, but he won't.  Also, what do you do with that? The teachers hand out worksheets but they don't make it really possible to dictate everything. It's not like we have a system where he can send audio files.  It's one of the things that drives me crazy about having him in school....

So I guess what we're doing with these 40 minute drives to OT is worth it. I so would like to stop, sigh. I get worn out on drives, really. Or I'm lazy. Or something. I have a very bad attitude sometimes.

The grind is real.  Like, NT families don't get how much time/effort/money it takes to have our kid perform so badly next to theirs. 🤣

Just to expand on that, I'm wondering if you mean what I'm calling narrative language. If he can't organize his thoughts and get them out somehow, then all the pencil skills don't matter. And that expressive language, narrative, expository, pulling all the syntax and meaning together, is the long battle. 

Yes, this, exactly.  My ds can very easily read college level material.  He speaks complex, fluent sentences.  He struggles, though, with higher level writing.  Getting him to write more than 2-3 sentences is challenging, and yet when you're working at higher level material, the answers often require more than that. We also see a huge drop in complexity of thought and vocabulary in his physical writing.  Tech can solve that issue---but we're struggling with the move from writing a few sentences to writing multi-paragraph pieces.  I look at the writing his age peers do and we're just not there. His science class is project based---doing really awesome stuff with developing experiments, writing grant applications, etc. and doing meaningful work but so much of his science is writing. We've hit that point in junior high where almost all school becomes math or writing based and it's a giant wall.

And you might be right that maybe I got caught up in some enthusiasm thinking we could fix the VMI and make that easier, and you're right that winning on LANGUAGE is where it's at, not the VMI. Sigh. 

So then in your hindsight, was there something that helped with the language side and the getting it out side? We're doing things. Sometimes I feel like I'm three chickens without heads, not just one. So many areas to address, how to prioritize, sigh.

I think Susan Wise Bauer is right that first, you fix the faulty thinking. All writing is the expression of thought. When you strip away all of the visual and all of the motor, you're left with thinking. How do you organize that thinking? It was actually your posts on mind-mapping that you did with your oldest that kind of gave me that aha moment several years ago.  We started with mind-mapping to build vocabulary and make connections and then we worked on outlining to build structure to writing.  He can do all of that with support....its getting him to be independent that has been a challenge.  His SPED teacher is using Spectrum Writing this year for his weekly individualized homework and it's been a good fit. The workbook also works on deeper comprehension and inferences and so we've been able to do a lot of different styles/purposes of writing to see where things are glitchy (and why).

Yup, that's what our OT has done for us, refining those goals. It's what an OT can do for op and why she wants that referral.

So then back my situation (because I'm a board hog), what would you say on that drive thing? You're saying you drove, did the OT, and it still wasn't worth it? Our OT is flexible. We drive but we do 1 hour blocks. In that she only hits that gross motor and stuff for handwriting. She hasn't been hitting interoception at all. I have this perpetual battle between the value of having other people help and the distraction of going to those places and not doing what *I* will do best. It has always been a hard thing for me to balance, wanting help but finding it more efficient to do things myself. Sometimes people are BETTER than what I could do or give us momentum.

So when would you stop? What would you see that would say ok, we're there, pull the plug?

I would stop:

1. Limited resources---if I needed to pull the money to hit a higher priority thing

2. Limited benefit---if I'm not seeing real, tangible, immediate benefit after 4 weeks, I'm gone.  There's too much demanding my dollars and time and mental energy.  

3. Too much conflict---If you are consistently going to war and making a demand to make therapy happen and it is burning bridges with your kid, pause and reassess. There have been times when I had to pull the mom card (brain radiation with my kid with cancer--it made us all miserable for that last two weeks) but there have been other times when I've said that no amount of benefit from the therapy is worth the damage it's doing to my relationship with my kid. 

My .02---lovingly and bluntly--For you, where there is 0-20% chance that your ds is going to work and live independently, and you're 100% sure he'll qualify for SSI-D, I don't know that handwriting would be a top priority.  I would focus on interoception because I think that's your best hope of improving behaviors.  I would be putting all of my time/money/effort into whatever I needed to address behaviors--and school would be the side benefit. Swim, go walking or biking, bounce balls back and forth--you can hit those gross motor things on your own with life....but where he isn't wanting to pick up a pencil to communicate too much--there's not much you can do until he wants to write and values that as a form of communication. 

 

Edited April 18, 2019 by prairiewindmomma

[prairiewindmomma]

I'm going to go read your narrative language thread, PP.  I haven't been on the boards much due to life.  I'll see if I have an additional thoughts once I catch up. I can do this in my half hour lunch break, right? 🤯

[FairProspects]

Yes to everything Mainer is saying. And most of Peter Pan's & Lecka's posts too (and that's just because I haven't read the entire thread - no time today).

The AAS undoubtedly influenced her scores. A remediated dyslexic just doesn't look classically dyslexic. My oldest, a remediated dyslexic, just told me recently that he probably wants to minor in Eastern European languages or linguistics. He has an A in his high school level foreign language course and he's contemplating adding a 3rd language next year. It just does NOT look classically dyslexic at this point, even though it takes him *hours* to do his work and he is SO slow at reading.

I think these non-traditional 2E dyslexics can really confuse people because ultimately they just look glitchy. He doesn't process quickly like he should, he forgets pieces of equations, has to do twice as much review on vocabulary or gender articles, etc. People, including psychs & SLPs, see the gaps, but it isn't always enough after remediation to get the IEP or a label. My school district would probably laugh in my face right now if I asked for an IEP. But, at the same time, this kid would not be successful without additional supports like extra time, fewer problems, and explicit executive functioning skills teaching. It's a weird gray area.

[PeterPan]

2 hours ago, prairiewindmomma said:

Processing speed is not a matter of attention here. It is slow, painfully slow. We took him to an attention specialist--no attention issues....things just don't fire rapidly.  Interestingly, if we put a 60bpm rhythm behind him or do some other rhythmic activity beforehand, we see a short, temporary bump in processing power.

Metronome work targets the EF portion of the brain. Very interesting.

1 hour ago, prairiewindmomma said:

Yeah, this whole compliance thing has been interesting for me. Ds can be a very compliant kid. Like, he CAN write in perfectly fluent cursive. He chooses not to, though, when he writes for himself.  It bugs the heck out of me because he turns in totally illegible homework....but he can either write beautifully or he can do content. He can't do both. Because handwriting never became automatic for him, he'd rather focus on getting content out rather than having it be beautiful.  The amount of effort it takes for him to write neatly is crazy. They did timed tests--how quickly and accurately he could print, write in cursive, type or dictate---it TOTALLY makes sense for him to dictate everything, but he won't.  Also, what do you do with that? The teachers hand out worksheets but they don't make it really possible to dictate everything. It's not like we have a system where he can send audio files.  It's one of the things that drives me crazy about having him in school....

So I guess what we're doing with these 40 minute drives to OT is worth it. I so would like to stop, sigh. I get worn out on drives, really. Or I'm lazy. Or something. I have a very bad attitude sometimes.

The grind is real.  Like, NT families don't get how much time/effort/money it takes to have our kid perform so badly next to theirs. 🤣

Love that about the effort just to look bad next to theirs, lol.

It sounds like getting the VMI up DID do something, but maybe it's not perfect whizbang. But it's not like getting up did nothing, because your ds is now much more functional than mine. So getting that VMI up for ds might have some benefit.

I talked it through with the behaviorist and we're going to drop some peripheral things like music therapy for the summer and whittle down to OT and me. That should leave me less scattered at least.

1 hour ago, prairiewindmomma said:

 His SPED teacher is using Spectrum Writing this year for his weekly individualized homework and it's been a good fit. The workbook also works on deeper comprehension and inferences and so we've been able to do a lot of different styles/purposes of writing to see where things are glitchy (and why).

Interesting, I'll have to look into Spectrum Writing. I think I may have looked at the younger grades. The only thing I'd have to add (since your ds is older than mine) is to look at something like Thememaker that is showing how to transition from narrative to expository writing. I find, and this is just me, that my ds needs a lot for things to click. So take the idea of a "problem" in the story. He literally could not have told you what the problem was! We spent tons of read alouds going what is the problem here and then what is the plan... 

So MW/SGM has a way to convert those narrative to expository skills and help them see the structures. I like the workbooks too, because they build things visually and gradually. I've got some I want to get to with ds this summer that have a unit (some kind of narrative) and then build to expository. I just need to get us a little more focused and not in the big city 3-4 days a week so we can get this stuff done. 

1 hour ago, prairiewindmomma said:

I would stop:

1. Limited resources---if I needed to pull the money to hit a higher priority thing

2. Limited benefit---if I'm not seeing real, tangible, immediate benefit after 4 weeks, I'm gone.  There's too much demanding my dollars and time and mental energy.  

3. Too much conflict---If you are consistently going to war and making a demand to make therapy happen and it is burning bridges with your kid, pause and reassess. There have been times when I had to pull the mom card (brain radiation with my kid with cancer--it made us all miserable for that last two weeks) but there have been other times when I've said that no amount of benefit from the therapy is worth the damage it's doing to my relationship with my kid. 

Ok, I really like this list! Right now doing OT is not draining resources (enough in the scholarship), and we are seeing benefit, and he goes in willingly. Actually that was one of the reasons I liked her, because she's Hanen trained and because it's giving him the chance to go in and do something, compliance, waiting, keeping calm after the appt, etc. But we've been doing appts 3 days a week this semester, which has left as dragged out a bit.

1 hour ago, prairiewindmomma said:

 I would focus on interoception because I think that's your best hope of improving behaviors.  I would be putting all of my time/money/effort into whatever I needed to address behaviors--and school would be the side benefit.

This is how it feels, yes. I just seldom hear someone saying it, lol. Our behaviorist is onboard with that, because she knows what happens if you don't. So we have like 1 hour of paperwork a day and everything else is life, self-regulation, read-alouds (focused on social, language, understanding the world, communicating, thinking, expressing opinions, etc.).

1 hour ago, prairiewindmomma said:

For you, where there is 0-20% chance that your ds is going to work and live independently, and you're 100% sure he'll qualify for SSI-D, I don't know that handwriting would be a top priority.

I don't know. Our SSI-D waiver eval is next week. I think he's right on the line, but I don't know. They just redid everything in our state so no one knows, lol. It used to be a 10 year wait and everyone got on the list and you found out when you got there whether you were eligible or not. I think he'll be able to work 20 hours a week, something part time. That's what I'm hoping. We don't anticipate him doing handwriting at all except tiny amounts and even that we'd do tech for. I don't think it will be legible if he's doing it to communicate. Like say he goes into appliance repair (my vote), I think he needs to do e-invoices, not write them out. But yeah, in the scheme of things it's not that important. 

Well interesting. The behaviorist is saying to trim down to one day a week and see if that makes us comfortable. I need to retain OT for a little while yet because I want it included in my IEP when we update next month.

[prairiewindmomma]

PP--I'm reading the narrative language thread and I'm making notes. I have some clarified goals for when we go to update the IEP for fall.  I really appreciate your posts because they get deep in the weeds and I can kind of muck around and see what's useful for our own situation. 

[PeterPan]

16 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

PP--I'm reading the narrative language thread and I'm making notes. I have some clarified goals for when we go to update the IEP for fall.  I really appreciate your posts because they get deep in the weeds and I can kind of muck around and see what's useful for our own situation. 

Ask away if you end up with questions. Really though, they're concepts and then you apply them to your situation. The MW/SGM stuff is particularly good at helping you roadmap and figure out where the breakdown is. I think you mentioned syntax, but I will say it's the never-ending problem seemingly here. As one SLP put it to me, syntax drives meaning. So when they're not thinking at that level, the syntax isn't there either. They go hand in hand. But fat chance having a ps SLP acknowledge and work on syntax. Maybe, and I do see the threads and the blog posts. But it's kind of superficial. Like they'll say oh hit relatives, 3+ clauses in a sentence, one other thing, and boom. I'm like no, might need to be more thorough. Whatever.

But if you have questions, yeah, fire 'em away. You can put them in that thread if you want. I haven't updated it in a while but it's still where I'll dump everything to keep the flow of thought.

[Runningmom80]

2 hours ago, FairProspects said:

Yes to everything Mainer is saying. And most of Peter Pan's & Lecka's posts too (and that's just because I haven't read the entire thread - no time today).

The AAS undoubtedly influenced her scores. A remediated dyslexic just doesn't look classically dyslexic. My oldest, a remediated dyslexic, just told me recently that he probably wants to minor in Eastern European languages or linguistics. He has an A in his high school level foreign language course and he's contemplating adding a 3rd language next year. It just does NOT look classically dyslexic at this point, even though it takes him *hours* to do his work and he is SO slow at reading.

I think these non-traditional 2E dyslexics can really confuse people because ultimately they just look glitchy. He doesn't process quickly like he should, he forgets pieces of equations, has to do twice as much review on vocabulary or gender articles, etc. People, including psychs & SLPs, see the gaps, but it isn't always enough after remediation to get the IEP or a label. My school district would probably laugh in my face right now if I asked for an IEP. But, at the same time, this kid would not be successful without additional supports like extra time, fewer problems, and explicit executive functioning skills teaching. It's a weird gray area.

 

Yes, I'm slowly accepting it's just a weird gray area. I think earlier I was feeling like maybe I'm a poser looking at dyslexia curricula and books when we don't have an official membership card to the club. I'm ok hanging out here as an honorary member. We do have the dysgraphia to attend to as well, I'm really not trying to downplay that part. I think I need to just think of it all in terms of actual skills she needs to work on and less of "this is this and that is that" because really it doesn't matter. 

Anyways, this leads me to another question, for dyslexics, am I understanding that remediation brings them closer to "average" and so they will test "less dyslexic" as they are remediated? Even though a dyslexic is technically dyslexic all their life? 

 

[Runningmom80]

2 hours ago, HeighHo said:

On curriculum for dysgraphia....I basically realized the OT here didn't have the expertise.....I can understand that since she had more severe needs than a gifted kid who couldn't get his words down thru the pencil fast enough and could of course type.  But,the school didn't give students chromebooks and there are times in life when writing is needed, such as the SAT, essays in English and SS class,  etc.  The district and individual teachers gave accomodations and weren't willing to put a lot of time in to remediate the actual writing.  Remediation turned out to be what they didn't do in the first place, teach penmanship.  Ha ha.  I kept my face pretty straight when the team leader got that out of the OT.    So, rather than pull kiddo out of class - it was 8th grade by then and he couldn't write fast enough to finish the state ELA exam in 7th -- I took the remediation material from the OT, looked at it and realize it was crummy as it wouldn't get a kid to fluency.  My kid knew how to form the letters, he was great at it...half an hour for a 5 sentence paragraph and it looked beautifully legible.  It also annoyed the heck out of him because it was D'Nealian print with so many unnecessary 'tails' and a slant that he couldn't make consistently without drawing it.  I knew from the sped teacher that they drop the tails and the slant, simplifying it for IEP students.  I realized ds was drawing rather than writing, and used Peterson Directed Handwriting to teach cursive-- the stroke practice moved him from art to writing.  Then we switched to Essential Learning Products Handwriting Skills Simplified, which had a simple font and spoke directly to him about legibility rather than asking for perfection.  I didn't supervise the ELP beyond insisting he do a page a day.  That learning transferred over to his manuscript eventually and he could write his notes for class albeit slowly since he was getting used to bifocals...let me just say that notetaking from a board is a waste of time, he was better off taking a photo.  If it was a quiz, he never had time to copy from the board and answer, so the teachers would hand his to him written on a piece of paper and let him stay after to finish, no official accomodation.   College was all powerpoint so he never had to copy notes after K12.

Spelling...nightmare due to vision and hearing and school district teaching randomly. Remediated with Megawords in Grade 6, just spelling portion of Book 1.  If I had a do-over, I'd just grab something that taught using patterns and rules.  Our trouble was hearing....many of the words he was not hearing correctly due to temporary hearing loss and that showed in the spelling. He had no idea which words took what phonics choice  when there was more than one possibility.  His learn to type program used patterns and that helped.  Spellcheck took care of a few words here and there.  Showing him how to study a word by visualizing and saying it forwards and backwards was also significant.  

 

Thank you! looking into these handwriting programs now!

[Storygirl]

3 hours ago, FairProspects said:

 

The AAS undoubtedly influenced her scores. A remediated dyslexic just doesn't look classically dyslexic.

BINGO!!!

When DD13 had her NP testing, the NP said her phonological disability could be considered severe. I don't remember her test scores, as this was almost four years ago; I would have to dig the document out.

She then had OG tutoring for a year during fourth grade. She then entered the dyslexia school in fifth grade, and she totally passed the CTOPP they gave her in the middle of that year and was not considered to need intensive OG remediation any more (the school continues to weave OG into all of their classes, but she didn't need the actual OG class any more).

Now, her spelling is still weak. If you read something she writes on a piece of paper, there are still a lot of misspellings. She still needs accommodations and uses tech for support. She has to stop and sound out unfamiliar words when she is reading. She is still dyslexic. But she can pass the CTOPP now, when she couldn't before.

DD13 has learned the phonological skills. She just is not always able to apply them all of the time when she is writing, and it takes extra work for her when she is reading. But she has the skills now, whereas before, she did not.

 

AAS did not work at all for DD13 when we tried it. You know how you practice those first letter-sound cards and then move on to the next ones? She could not get past the first vowel cards, where she had to be able to say all of the sounds the vowels make. Couldn't do it. We couldn't even move past the very beginning, no matter how hard we worked at it. We had to abandon ship and try something else. Which still didn't work, and nothing worked for her until she got her OG tutoring.

If AAS and whatever else you did actually worked for your daughter, however, then, yes, it's possible she is presenting as a remediated dyslexic (even with continued spelling issues).

Edited April 18, 2019 by Storygirl

[Storygirl]

2 hours ago, Runningmom80 said:

 

 

Anyways, this leads me to another question, for dyslexics, am I understanding that remediation brings them closer to "average" and so they will test "less dyslexic" as they are remediated? Even though a dyslexic is technically dyslexic all their life? 

 

These are my thoughts, based on DD13 and whatever I've read, but I am by no means an expert, and I certainly haven't read everything that's out there about dyslexia. So take it for what it is.

DD13's phonological disability has been remediated, so that she can pass the CTOPP.

BUT her brain is still her brain, and it is still dyslexic. She has finally been able to learn and store and remember the phonological rules that allow her to decode words when reading and encode them when spelling. Her reading and spelling scores have gone up, and she no longer gets reading and spelling goals in her IEP. So is she closer to average now, according to testing? YES

BUT her brain is still dyslexic, so even though she can remember and use the phonological rules when tested, she still does not always use them in practice:

*Her spelling is so, so much better; it no longer makes her communication illegible. She still misspells many individual words (she used to misspell every word), but the misspellings are more likely to be closer phonetically to the correct word, instead of extreme "creative spelling."

* She reads much better now, although she still has to slow down and sound out unfamiliar words.

* When she slows down and is careful, she does much better with spelling, and she reads more accurately. She CAN do this, and when she does, it makes her reading and writing more closely resemble that of her typical peers. This is what happens with testing -- she is doing her best and scores within the average range.

* In reality, in everyday work, she rushes and makes errors and doesn't catch them in reading and spelling, and her handwriting is sloppy, even though she has in the past been able to have beautiful penmanship (I could write a whole post about penmanship but won't interject it here). So her schoolwork still will not look like the average student's work.

Why is there the gap between what she CAN do and what she DOES do? Here is where my parental speculating comes in. I think that it takes such an effort for her to perform at her best, top level that she just can't sustain it constantly. She can show that she has those skills when testing, but she isn't going to use the amount of brainpower that it would take to do that all the time in her daily work. She has to use some of that brain power for the rest of her thinking and can't spend it all on doing perfect handwriting and spelling.

So what I think about remediation is that DD13 now has the phonological skills within her brain. But because she has a dyslexic brain, it takes much more work to USE those skills, to pull the information out of where it is stored in the brain. She has to THINK more to use those skills than the typical peer does. And it's more tiring.

 

Edited April 19, 2019 by Storygirl

[kbutton]

12 hours ago, Runningmom80 said:

Thank you. I think the mildness of it is what I’m struggling with. I wonder if it’s possible that it’s less mild than what the numbers pulled out. I always thought if 2e “canceling each other out” when it comes to academics. I don’t think I understood it can also happen in the actual testing.

Yes, it can! 

9 hours ago, PeterPan said:

So it's RIGHT to call her dyslexic because she's clearly presenting as having difficulties and likely has the genes. If it bugs you, run the testing on 23andme when it's on sale and compare her list to the SNPs in the studies. 

It's not right to say that kids don't get intervention at the proper tier just because they're gifted and can mask. My ds went through Barton so fast it was embarrassing!! But reality was HE NEEDED BARTON. Don't worry about the whole pecking order, why doesn't my kid look like so and so's kid. Just ask WHAT DOES MY KID NEED TO GET ON TRACK AND BEGIN TO THRIVE? That's it. It's only about what your kids need.

The other thing is that your AAS intervention assuredly bumped those scores. It's one of the things the psych is acknowledging in her diagnosis I think. It's not like you were doing the Fountas & Pinnell or Jan Richardson read the beginning and end and GUESS crap that is being taught in the ps. You actually taught her with materials that WOULD HAVE BEEN ENOUGH for some dyslexics. So her scores are slightly better, but the psych is like this is not passing the sniff test, it's dyslexia, call it dyslexia.

So don't hide in a corner or think you can't use the word. Call it what it is.

I agree with all of this, especially the intervention bumping the scores. And I think you mentioned Montessori? They do some phonics work, and they do a ton with sounds and mapping them to letters. I don't remember if they map them to phonograms. But they do a lot of multi-sensory teaching, explicit stuff, and letting kids spend the time they need and want to spend on it. 

8 hours ago, PeterPan said:

The CELF is fast food testing, so personally I don't take that as ANY indication of her expressive language, snort. You realize it's half multiple choice?? I kid you not. So yeah if you're happy with multiple choice expressive language, there you go, she passes. 

We don't do this with MDs. We acknowledge the breadth of the field.

The underlined...BWAHAHAHA!!! Um, sort of. Okay, moving on...

I love the CELF comment. So true! 

7 hours ago, PeterPan said:

I think the problem is not the box but not understanding what the box means. If you think dyslexia is ONLY DECODING, then it doesn't make sense. If you view it as a larger language disability, then it makes sense why all these interconnected issues are occurring. So it's more like expand your definition of dyslexia and it will make more sense. 

 

7 hours ago, Runningmom80 said:

She did explicitly say "You can think of her as gifted dyslexic, but it's not what the scores say."  Did I already say that a million times? I reminding myself. Honestly I don't care either way about the gifted aspect, but the dyslexia part does matter because I just want to make sure she gets what she needs. 

I have a question for you veterans, I naively thought that we would do this testing one time, she gets a diagnosis, and we go on our merry way. It sounds like, from some of your posts, that you test all of this stuff more than once? Is that the case?

My kids have each been tested three times, sigh. The good news is that, over time, the disability areas and the gifted areas have parted company, and it's so much more obvious what is going on. The whispers turned to full voices in the distance, which turned to actual conversations you could hear. 

My second kiddo has auditory processing issues, dyslexia, dysgraphia, and (apparently) dyscalculia. The only one that I really doubt is the dyscalculia, but it's based on his calculation abilities--math fact stuff. It is not automatic. I understand dyscalculia to be more of number sense problem. He didn't get the dyslexia diagnosis until last fall. He's 11. A friend IRL who has worked with him said, "It's about time!" 

Anyway, my son had signs of dyslexia, and now that I have seen some video footage (part of a proprietary video in an online conference--no links), I now know for sure (vs. all the second guessing I did) that he sounded like a dyslexic reader way back when, but everyone always had a worse scenario that made his reading seem better. We used a strong phonics program that I knew how to flex to bring out what he specifically needed. He used his own very strong metacognitive skills to compensate also. The child invented his own mental strategies to accommodate his own weaknesses. At the time, I kind of took that for maybe not quite being diagnosable vs. evidence that he was compensating. Highly.

7 hours ago, PeterPan said:

What matters is the intervention, and it's pretty clear from those scores (and what I assume you're seeing that drove you to evals) that your dd cannot perform at the level she needs to do to what she's trying to do. So REALITY has to trump your SLP's spelling tests and fluency tests, kwim? The psych was taking into consideration the larger situation, including probably the level of intervention you had already done.

I paid $$$ per level and did Barton with my ds, even though he blew through how many levels in a year, because I wanted to get that off the table as the issue. I don't see a reason NOT to do proper intervention. She'll probably progress nicely and then you'll see what's left. It's only good.

I agree. There are times when doing intervention might mean a kid isn't going to get an IEP by a hair's breadth. You have evidence of difficulties that the school could accommodate and address. They will or they won't give an IEP, but it won't be your psych report standing in the way. I feel vindicated to have a dyslexia diagnosis on paper, but my son does NOT qualify for his IEP on that basis. He qualifies for other quirky stuff, and if that changes, he will be left with a 504, and that will be appropriate by then because he can pull things off that will make him ineligible eventually.

7 hours ago, Runningmom80 said:

Yes, fact speed.

This is long. I will make a separate post with some ideas about that. Fact speed is not necessarily something you will get, lol! 

7 hours ago, Lecka said:

I think you can use what you were using that was working.  And then just see!  There are a lot of ways to try to adapt output, that can go with a lot of things.  

It can be anything from doing some things on a white board and you writing some/all steps.  Or using different paper with more lines.  Or bigger font.  Or adding in extra practice for computation while continuing on with your previous program.

If you read about dyslexia some kids also have weaknesses with computation but strengths with conceptual math, so if that might be the case, you can keep going with what is going well and then add in review or extra practice with some things that are “supposed to be” done with. 

A lot of “supposed to be” things may not be the way they are expected, but adapting is good and being flexible is good.  

Just for example long division was a nightmare here, and then — aren’t decimals supposed to be harder?  No, decimals were much easier, it was a relief.  There can be things like that where people try moving on with some review, instead of staying on one thing forever and ever.  But then you can see if it is possible to keep going with review, or if it really is something where you need to do things to mastery before moving on.

I think here — it can look like moving on in some things, and in other things, it being better not to move on even if it is supposed to be good enough to move on, just from knowing more practice than usual is going to be needed.  

But definitely don’t hold kids back over computation, if you can keep going and still spend time on computation.  

Yes. I don't know what version of Singapore you are doing, but we used US edition, and we often hit multiple math topics at a time if something bogged down. If we were bogged down in long division, we'd hit the geometry section for a while, etc. We had the same scenario with long division being awful, and then decimals being great, lol! 

6 hours ago, prairiewindmomma said:

Processing speed is not a matter of attention here. It is slow, painfully slow. We took him to an attention specialist--no attention issues....things just don't fire rapidly.  Interestingly, if we put a 60bpm rhythm behind him or do some other rhythmic activity beforehand, we see a short, temporary bump in processing power.

I really, really want my son to embrace this. People do stuff like this in real life, as adults, to cope. We had a buy paint most of the interior of our new house. He worked to fast music. He said if he doesn't, he's like wind-up clock that someone forgot to wind, and he will just get slower and slower as he paints. I think stuff like that is really practical.

3 hours ago, FairProspects said:

The AAS undoubtedly influenced her scores. A remediated dyslexic just doesn't look classically dyslexic. 

I think these non-traditional 2E dyslexics can really confuse people because ultimately they just look glitchy. He doesn't process quickly like he should, he forgets pieces of equations, has to do twice as much review on vocabulary or gender articles, etc. People, including psychs & SLPs, see the gaps, but it isn't always enough after remediation to get the IEP or a label. My school district would probably laugh in my face right now if I asked for an IEP. But, at the same time, this kid would not be successful without additional supports like extra time, fewer problems, and explicit executive functioning skills teaching. It's a weird gray area.

Adult dyslexics that I know are like this. Some do have reduced output that they have to work-around, or they ask people to edit their stuff for detailed things like spelling, or consistency with mechanics in writing or on their powerpoint presentations.

1 hour ago, Runningmom80 said:

I think earlier I was feeling like maybe I'm a poser looking at dyslexia curricula and books when we don't have an official membership card to the club. I'm ok hanging out here as an honorary member. 

Yay! That's important.

[Storygirl]

DD13's OG tutor is dyslexic. Her dyslexia is remediated enough that she has a degree in education and a master's degree as a reading specialist. She teaches other dyslexic children how to read. Her dyslexia is definitely remediated.

But she said her brain still gets very tired when reading, and she has accommodations for college that include audio versions of textbooks and human readers for tests. She told me she could get through a test without a human reader, but that doing the reading would use up the brain power that she needed for completing the answers, so she accepted and used the accommodation.

Remediated? Yes, I'm sure she could pass all of the dyslexia testing with flying colors. Still dyslexic? Absolutely yes.

[kbutton]

Math facts...

So, my non-dyslexic kiddo (ASD and ADHD) has issues with speed of calculation but not accuracy. He's a machine with accuracy. His speed has increased through use, not rote drilling or games or anything else. Just using his facts to do more interesting calculations. His number sense is uncanny, and drilling actually UNDERMINED it completely. He stopped using his number sense in order to try to get a good grade on timed tests (he started out in school, K-2). His number sense is actually what slowed the process down early on--he would basically make signposts with facts he remembered and work his way backward and forward from there. That's not efficient. So, he would remember that 8 + 8 = 16, but not remember 9 + 9. He would use the fact he remembered, combine it with knowing that 9 is one more than 8, and he'd build to the 18 as an answer. Drilling cut this totally short, encouraged guessing, and undercut the process his brain needed to retain facts.

My younger kiddo who is dyslexic did fine with facts at first. He wasn't fast, but he's not fast at anything, ever, except maybe witty comebacks (and then, only if he heard them because APD). He did a lot with cuisinaire rods, and those facts stuck pretty well, but put those facts into some kind of procedure, and forget it. He's really pretty bad with steps and sequences. Even if he knows his facts, he'll write things in the wrong place with carrying numbers or something like that. He'll write stuff in the wrong place for division. He knows the concepts cold, but he messes up processes all the time. This is across all of life, not just math. Routines, getting dressed--it permeates his whole universe.

What we're working on is using a calculator to speed things up. So, sometimes, he does the procedure, but he uses the calculator for each step. This makes it faster, and he writes things down wrong less often. It's sort of like how riding a bike is really hard if you are going super slow. At some point, you wobble all over. That's what it's like for him with procedures. 

When we don't care because we know he knows it, we just let him do the whole calculation in one swoop with the calculator. Done.

Using flexible cognitive strategies vs. math facts...

• If he can't use a calculator, he can make a quick reference. He can place the numbers 1-12 across his paper, and underneath those numbers, he can count by 7's or 9's or whatever is stopping him up. Then he can use those facts as a reference to finish his work. He knows enough of his facts to double-check his table (usually, lol!).
• Factoring--factoring tables that show all the factors of the number are handy for some kinds of work, especially simplifying fractions.
• Factoring--factoring things down to their primes is useful for all kinds of things; again, simplifying fractions comes to mind, but you can even do square roots this way. Singapore teaches this in Dimensions Math 7. When my older son showed his math tutor, she'd never seen it before.

Anyway, there is nothing wrong with games to improve fact recall, but if you don't get it, there are so many ways to use cognitive strategies, or strategies that rely on simple skills to be more flexible with calculation. 

[kbutton]

12 minutes ago, Storygirl said:

DD13's OG tutor is dyslexic. Her dyslexia is remediated enough that she has a degree in education and a master's degree as a reading specialist. She teaches other dyslexic children how to read. Her dyslexia is definitely remediated.

But she said her brain still gets very tired when reading, and she has accommodations for college that include audio versions of textbooks and human readers for tests. She told me she could get through a test without a human reader, but that doing the reading would use up the brain power that she needed for completing the answers, so she accepted and used the accommodation.

Remediated? Yes, I'm sure she could pass all of the dyslexia testing with flying colors. Still dyslexic? Absolutely yes.

One of my in-laws, who struggled with reading as a child (her father was a reading specialist who had many strategies to pull from, or it would've been worse) realized she was dyslexic when she was being trained as a special education teacher! 

[kbutton]

Oh, Math Mammoth is sold in topical units as well as grade level. They do have some cognitive strategies like the ones I've noted that they teach explicitly. I have the topical books for upper elementary, and if that idea appeals to you, I could probably help you identify some potential books to purchase individually. 

If you are using Singapore's Standards edition or Math in Focus, they might have that stuff too. I only know about what is in US Edition and the later Dimensions books.

[Runningmom80]

11 minutes ago, kbutton said:

Oh, Math Mammoth is sold in topical units as well as grade level. They do have some cognitive strategies like the ones I've noted that they teach explicitly. I have the topical books for upper elementary, and if that idea appeals to you, I could probably help you identify some potential books to purchase individually. 

If you are using Singapore's Standards edition or Math in Focus, they might have that stuff too. I only know about what is in US Edition and the later Dimensions books.

 

I use standards for SM and I have alllll the MM! I think I will probably be able to use what I have and add in what she needs. 

 

ETA: Thank you for the math fact advice! 

Edited April 19, 2019 by Runningmom80

[Storygirl]

11 minutes ago, kbutton said:

My second kiddo has auditory processing issues, dyslexia, dysgraphia, and (apparently) dyscalculia. The only one that I really doubt is the dyscalculia, but it's based on his calculation abilities--math fact stuff. It is not automatic. I understand dyscalculia to be more of number sense problem.

Under IDEA, the schools have two disability categories for math -- SLD mathmatics problem solving and SLD mathmatics calculation.

DS15 has SLD math problem solving (although I would have to look at his IEP to see if they call it that or just SLD math), and DD13 has SLD math calculation.

I think both are types of dyscalculia. But they have different root causes, so it seems like they shouldn't be called the same thing!

I definitely feel that here on the boards, when dyscalculia is discussed, it is more about the math sense type. Sometimes it is the "has dyslexia and also trouble with math facts" type, which really is SLD math calculation. I actually don't think that either of my kids' root issue is really "math sense." DD13 has the dyslexia related problems with math. And DS15 has....complexity 😏.

https://www.understood.org/en/learning-attention-issues/child-learning-disabilities/dyscalculia/understanding-dyscalculia

[Runningmom80]

35 minutes ago, kbutton said:

My second kiddo has auditory processing issues, dyslexia, dysgraphia, and (apparently) dyscalculia

 

Thank you for this entire post, Kbutton! This part though, I just came across APD and now I'm thinking DD needs an appointment with an audiologist. She has a problem hearing sounds sometimes. 

[PeterPan]

52 minutes ago, Runningmom80 said:

 

Thank you for this entire post, Kbutton! This part though, I just came across APD and now I'm thinking DD needs an appointment with an audiologist. She has a problem hearing sounds sometimes. 

I think a bunch of us are really pro audiology evals. When you're seeing phonological issues, not responding, anything involving hearing and audiology, it's so good to rule out that piece. Around here the university evals are actually free. They must have gotten a grant or something, mercy. Totally free for basic audiology, which means it an easy recommend. 

[Lecka]

I think keep in mind too, IEPs are frequently not permanent.  They are frequently something that kids exit at some point.

So it can be a moot point if you have done remediation so a child never qualifies for an IEP, or a child does qualify for an IEP and then is able to actually receive and benefit from qualify intervention and then also be remediated and exit an IEP.

And that doesn’t exactly mean everything is perfect, it just means — there is a level of remediation that has happened and now a diagnosis or IEP is not where the scores are.  But that could happen even if you had prior scores that were lower and had that data point.

I think I have data points like that for my older son because he did have a Dibels screening in K and I also have speech therapy info for him (and he had phonological processing issues in speech therapy).  

Anyway I think it may seem more official to me because of having those earlier data points.  But still he doesn’t have an IEP now and I don’t think he needs one either.  And in particular he doesn’t want one.

I think he is a good reader now and not slow.  Handwriting is an issue (made up for a lot by typing).  

I think school is more mentally taxing/draining for him than it is “supposed to be.”

I also do not see him going into anything language-rich.  At all.  Even though he is a good reader and reading a long series.  

He is going to be either a math and science kid, or a vo-tech kid, I don’t know which one at this point.  

But also — I do think having an IEP or not is just about a moment in time, if it is something where there can be remediation and improvement and progress and then the IEP isn’t needed anymore.  

And then the main thing is there is more to a dyslexia profile than just reading!  

[kbutton]

1 hour ago, Storygirl said:

Under IDEA, the schools have two disability categories for math -- SLD mathmatics problem solving and SLD mathmatics calculation.

DS15 has SLD math problem solving (although I would have to look at his IEP to see if they call it that or just SLD math), and DD13 has SLD math calculation.

I think both are types of dyscalculia. But they have different root causes, so it seems like they shouldn't be called the same thing!

I definitely feel that here on the boards, when dyscalculia is discussed, it is more about the math sense type. Sometimes it is the "has dyslexia and also trouble with math facts" type, which really is SLD math calculation. I actually don't think that either of my kids' root issue is really "math sense." DD13 has the dyslexia related problems with math. And DS15 has....complexity 😏.

https://www.understood.org/en/learning-attention-issues/child-learning-disabilities/dyscalculia/understanding-dyscalculia

Ooh, didn't know that! Awesome. Supports my generic, "We have more labels than a sticker factory" statement when trying to explain why xyz doesn't work in our homeschool, lol! The more labels, the merrier.

[kbutton]

1 hour ago, Runningmom80 said:

Thank you for this entire post, Kbutton! This part though, I just came across APD and now I'm thinking DD needs an appointment with an audiologist. She has a problem hearing sounds sometimes. 

For some people, auditory processing and dyslexia seems to be two sides of the same coin. I don't think that's always the case, but there can be a big overlap. 

[lewelma]

On 4/18/2019 at 4:01 AM, Runningmom80 said:

She is the type of kid who will read a 3 step word problem and tell us the correct answer but when we ask her to show her work, she rolls around on the floor like we asked her to write a PhD thesis. 

 

Hope it is ok that I quoted this tiny piece of the OP.  I have not read all the responses, but wanted to respond to this one in particular.  I am a math tutor, and my ds15 has dysgraphia; and writing out proper workings is a hill I am willing to die on.  It has been a long three year process to get to where we are now, which is about half of the progress we need by graduation. Slow and stead wins the race, and I put on my big-girl panties every day and get the job done.  I wrote this up back in October, and thought I couldn't probably say it as well again, so I've just copied it.  Hope that is OK.

An event 3 years ago really impacted how I perceive of showing your mathematical workings. My younger son was struggling to write, so we took him in to get tested for dysgraphia. They worked him through a battery of tests that took 2 days and about 5 hours. I was in the room because he wanted me to be. He was 11 at the time. For the math section, the final question was something like you have 5 oranges and 8 apples costing $20, and 8 bananas and 6 oranges cost $18, and 9 applies and 3 bananas cost $21. How much does each fruit cost? (this is not the question, just something like it). I got out a piece of paper and simply coded it as three equations and three unknowns, but then realized I was going to get fractional answers.  Yuck!  Well, my ds had not started algebra certainly had never done simultaneous equations, had never seen a problem remotely like this, plus he could not write. Although he was allowed to use paper, he did not touch it. It took him 15 minutes to get the answer. He did it in his head.  To say that the examiner and I were flabbergasted, would be to undersell our response.  Neither of us could figure out how he did it. It was an amazing display of both raw intelligence and memory. When we got home, I was really curious about how he did it.  So we talked. I pulled out a piece of paper so I could actually write down what he did since he could not write, and what he explained made no sense.  Clearly, he was using ratios in some way. But we had not yet covered ratios, so he had no words to describe his intuition.  His 15 minutes of insight could not be coded into standard mathematical language. At least not by me. I was at a loss.

Because my ds could not write, he did all of his math in his head, and had for years.  I often scribed for him, but it was more me showing him what to write down rather than just writing verbatim what he told me to write.  So that week during math, I tried to scribe for him by just writing exactly what he told me to write, and it became very clear that he had no idea. None.  He could get the answer because of his mathematical insight, but he could not code it.  Over the next year I came to understand that this was a piece of his dysgraphia.  He could not *code* his thinking into mathematical language of expressions and equations. He thinking was web-like and based on intuition, it was not linear or really logical, and certainly not structured in a standard way.  And I came to believe that this was going to be a bigger and bigger problem as he advanced in math.  Given his amazing mathematical intuition, it would be sad for him to be limited in math because he could not write it down. His mathematical insight needed a strong linear, logical foundation of writing to be put to great use in higher math.

This was the beginning of my journey to *teach* him *how* to show his work.  It was absolutely not about showing *his* work because *his* work was a jumble of insight that could not be written down.  It was about rewiring a piece of his brain so that he could take that jumble and code in into linear logical steps.  This took 3 years. But this process showed me that there is more than one reason why students don't show *their* work. My son had to be trained not just which steps to write, but how to *think* like a mathematician. Intuition is a wonderful ability to have, but it simply won't get you far in math without proper mathematical thinking.  And writing is thinking made clear.  If you cannot write it, you are not thinking it.

My point is, to ask a student to show *her* work, is the wrong approach in my opinion.  You need to train a student to write the workings in a certain way, and that certain way when repeated day after day, year after year, will train a student to see math differently.  It is no different than practicing scales in violin, over many years you train the ear to hear if notes are out of tune. Drill is what is required.  So for my son, he had to drill proper workings to be able to train his brain to think linearly and logically. To do it the other way -- show your jumbled workings so I can see what you are thinking -- is to miss half of what teaching kids math is all about.

Ruth in NZ

Edited April 19, 2019 by lewelma

[Runningmom80]

6 hours ago, lewelma said:

 

Hope it is ok that I quoted this tiny piece of the OP.  I have not read all the responses, but wanted to respond to this one in particular.  I am a math tutor, and my ds15 has dysgraphia; and writing out proper workings is a hill I am willing to die on.  It has been a long three year process to get to where we are now, which is about half of the progress we need by graduation. Slow and stead wins the race, and I put on my big-girl panties every day and get the job done.  I wrote this up back in October, and thought I couldn't probably say it as well again, so I've just copied it.  Hope that is OK.

An event 3 years ago really impacted how I perceive of showing your mathematical workings. My younger son was struggling to write, so we took him in to get tested for dysgraphia. They worked him through a battery of tests that took 2 days and about 5 hours. I was in the room because he wanted me to be. He was 11 at the time. For the math section, the final question was something like you have 5 oranges and 8 apples costing $20, and 8 bananas and 6 oranges cost $18, and 9 applies and 3 bananas cost $21. How much does each fruit cost? (this is not the question, just something like it). I got out a piece of paper and simply coded it as three equations and three unknowns, but then realized I was going to get fractional answers.  Yuck!  Well, my ds had not started algebra certainly had never done simultaneous equations, had never seen a problem remotely like this, plus he could not write. Although he was allowed to use paper, he did not touch it. It took him 15 minutes to get the answer. He did it in his head.  To say that the examiner and I were flabbergasted, would be to undersell our response.  Neither of us could figure out how he did it. It was an amazing display of both raw intelligence and memory. When we got home, I was really curious about how he did it.  So we talked. I pulled out a piece of paper so I could actually write down what he did since he could not write, and what he explained made no sense.  Clearly, he was using ratios in some way. But we had not yet covered ratios, so he had no words to describe his intuition.  His 15 minutes of insight could not be coded into standard mathematical language. At least not by me. I was at a loss.

Because my ds could not write, he did all of his math in his head, and had for years.  I often scribed for him, but it was more me showing him what to write down rather than just writing verbatim what he told me to write.  So that week during math, I tried to scribe for him by just writing exactly what he told me to write, and it became very clear that he had no idea. None.  He could get the answer because of his mathematical insight, but he could not code it.  Over the next year I came to understand that this was a piece of his dysgraphia.  He could not *code* his thinking into mathematical language of expressions and equations. He thinking was web-like and based on intuition, it was not linear or really logical, and certainly not structured in a standard way.  And I came to believe that this was going to be a bigger and bigger problem as he advanced in math.  Given his amazing mathematical intuition, it would be sad for him to be limited in math because he could not write it down. His mathematical insight needed a strong linear, logical foundation of writing to be put to great use in higher math.

This was the beginning of my journey to *teach* him *how* to show his work.  It was absolutely not about showing *his* work because *his* work was a jumble of insight that could not be written down.  It was about rewiring a piece of his brain so that he could take that jumble and code in into linear logical steps.  This took 3 years. But this process showed me that there is more than one reason why students don't show *their* work. My son had to be trained not just which steps to write, but how to *think* like a mathematician. Intuition is a wonderful ability to have, but it simply won't get you far in math without proper mathematical thinking.  And writing is thinking made clear.  If you cannot write it, you are not thinking it.

My point is, to ask a student to show *her* work, is the wrong approach in my opinion.  You need to train a student to write the workings in a certain way, and that certain way when repeated day after day, year after year, will train a student to see math differently.  It is no different than practicing scales in violin, over many years you train the ear to hear if notes are out of tune. Drill is what is required.  So for my son, he had to drill proper workings to be able to train his brain to think linearly and logically. To do it the other way -- show your jumbled workings so I can see what you are thinking -- is to miss half of what teaching kids math is all about.

Ruth in NZ

 

Thank you Lewelma! That all makes a lot of sense. My DD plays violin, I’m hoping she can stick with it as it gets more difficult. 🙂

[Kanin]

6 hours ago, lewelma said:

My point is, to ask a student to show *her* work, is the wrong approach in my opinion.  You need to train a student to write the workings in a certain way, and that certain way when repeated day after day, year after year, will train a student to see math differently.  It is no different than practicing scales in violin, over many years you train the ear to hear if notes are out of tune. Drill is what is required. 

I love the way you put this. It's not whatever work a person is thinking about, it's a logical set of steps to get the reader to understand how to solve the problem.

Love it! Going to tell my 5th grade math students about this on Monday 🙂

[PeterPan]

9 hours ago, kbutton said:

For some people, auditory processing and dyslexia seems to be two sides of the same coin. I don't think that's always the case, but there can be a big overlap. 

Or put another way, half the TAPS (a frequent SLP or psych test for auditory processing) is half phonological processing. In other words, we expect there to be an effect on language when the auditory processing part of the brain is affected.

For op, you'll figure this out, but the most efficient way to get your audiology testing is to find someone who will run the SCAN screening portion when you go in for your basic audiology exam. That way it's a two-fer and done. Takes a little more hunting, because you're finding the place you'd want for the full APD if you need it (which hopefully you won't!) and starting there. For us that was a university, because APD testing requires a specialized booth. So some hearing clinics will say they do testing but they can only screen because they don't have the full booth set-up.