We got our results and diagnosis - would love curriculum recs

[PeterPan]

8 hours ago, lewelma said:

Because my ds could not write, he did all of his math in his head, and had for years.  I often scribed for him, but it was more me showing him what to write down rather than just writing verbatim what he told me to write.  So that week during math, I tried to scribe for him by just writing exactly what he told me to write, and it became very clear that he had no idea. None.  He could get the answer because of his mathematical insight, but he could not code it.  Over the next year I came to understand that this was a piece of his dysgraphia.  He could not *code* his thinking into mathematical language of expressions and equations. He thinking was web-like and based on intuition, it was not linear or really logical, and certainly not structured in a standard way.

My ds is like this. He has spatial ways of seeing things and, as you put it, intuition, but he has that gap in translating from what he's thinking to equations. I had a thread on it recently where we were talking about ideas. For him I definitely think it's this language issue, that his brain isn't converting to math language to get it out that way and needs that assistance. So an appropriate support for him might be showing the types of equations and letting him choose one. Also his actual language (speech) drops when stressed, so getting any of that out can suddenly become very hard. Even the ability to point can drop, sigh. But yes, a very high level of support to get that translation happening into what it looks like in math.

For my dd, her language would also drop during math, but she didn't have that gap with translating what she saw into math equations. That part was there, and it's not for my ds. For her the breakdown was the EF, breaking it into steps. Geometric proofs really pushed that to the max. Written programs like MUS were good for her. She could get there, but her brain was not organized and efficient. It wanted to jump impulsively instead of slowing down. But if she actually worked on getting it out, all the pieces were there. With my ds, those mathematical pieces aren't even there. It's a total math translation gap from what he can see or intuit to what he can convert into the way other people would expect to see it. 

So for op, yeah it's fun. Go with your gut on what you think is happening. No matter what, you want to dig in there, so it's just a question of how far that support has to go. For my dd, language supports and me being her RAM were usually enough. She could get the steps into print, but to hold all those thoughts and show the steps and remember everything and process, with her low processing speed, was just a bear. So see what supports it takes to get there. We did a lot of math on the whiteboard, no regrets there. But that part I bolded is huge. I don't write it until the kid says it. *I* already know how to do the math. My ds is like just write it, you know what I'm thinking!! I'm like dude, *I* already know how to do this, I took plenty of math in college, I'm fine. The question is whether YOU can get the work out and show it. So I only write what he gets out, and the question is how much support it takes for the kid to get there. 

[PeterPan]

22 minutes ago, HeighHo said:

my dc's Grade 1 teacher does it is to ask the students to 'prove it'

Oh that's an interesting idea... It would be fun to see what happens in his brain if I asked it. It's sort of another thought process.

[PeterPan]

9 minutes ago, HeighHo said:

 

When you ask lit questions, do you ask for the clues that support the reasoning?

Absolutely. That's a big deal, that he be able to support his answer textually. The materials I'm using now are transitioning that from direct evidence to inferences and more complicated reasoning, putting things together, etc. But yes, definitely important. 

I think in reality for us (just us personally) we have so many things going on that not everything will get done. I have to prioritize. 

[Runningmom80]

Ok here's a thing, and at this point maybe I should start another thread...

 

I gave DD the placement test for AAR level 3. I'm just trying to get a baseline and I'm playing around with stuff I have.

She read the story pretty well, no decoding issues per se but she added and subtracted articles in a couple of places.

Where I saw red flags were the phonograms. Her vowels are a mess, and more interesting, when it was a 2 vowel phonogram, she was searching her brain for a word that used it and then would tell me the sound. So for "oi" she whispered "soil" and then said "oi!"  Is that typical or is that a phonological issue. 

 

ETA: She always had a hard time with the AAS vowel cards. Even today she could not remember the vowel long sounds. 

Edited April 19, 2019 by Runningmom80

[kbutton]

10 hours ago, lewelma said:

He could get the answer because of his mathematical insight, but he could not code it.  Over the next year I came to understand that this was a piece of his dysgraphia.  He could not *code* his thinking into mathematical language of expressions and equations. He thinking was web-like and based on intuition, it was not linear or really logical, and certainly not structured in a standard way.  And I came to believe that this was going to be a bigger and bigger problem as he advanced in math.  Given his amazing mathematical intuition, it would be sad for him to be limited in math because he could not write it down. His mathematical insight needed a strong linear, logical foundation of writing to be put to great use in higher math.

My older son with ASD is like this with his math, right down to the using ratios (or fractions or some other concept in a novel way). It's crazy. I am not sure it's handwriting-related for him though! We had the added problem that sometimes he seemed to be making a leap or not showing steps he should, but then the answer key would show a worked solution with similar steps (stuff that wouldn't have been allowed when I was in school!). It was hard for me to know when to force the issue and when to let him be. 

Thankfully, his tutor helps him with this. She loves that he thinks differently from her, but she helps him learn the standard way to do things. 

[PeterPan]

35 minutes ago, Runningmom80 said:

Ok here's a thing, and at this point maybe I should start another thread...

 

I gave DD the placement test for AAR level 3. I'm just trying to get a baseline and I'm playing around with stuff I have.

She read the story pretty well, no decoding issues per se but she added and subtracted articles in a couple of places.

Where I saw red flags were the phonograms. Her vowels are a mess, and more interesting, when it was a 2 vowel phonogram, she was searching her brain for a word that used it and then would tell me the sound. So for "oi" she whispered "soil" and then said "oi!"  Is that typical or is that a phonological issue. 

 

ETA: She always had a hard time with the AAS vowel cards. Even today she could not remember the vowel long sounds. 

I would do the Barton screening tool. Then Barton can send you placement tests. Sounds like she has some holes. You're trying to push forward on a poor foundation. She doesn't need higher levels but the holes filled in, i.e. Going back and doing what AAS didn't nail for her.

[Runningmom80]

1 minute ago, PeterPan said:

I would do the Barton screening tool. Then Barton can send you placement tests. Sounds like she has some holes. You're trying to push forward on a poor foundation. She doesn't need higher levels but the holes filled in, i.e. Going back and doing what AAS didn't nail for her.

 

I did the Barton screening. She missed 3 on test c, but I think it wasn’t more how S.B. was making the sounds. (I used the video)  When I asked her to repeat the sounds myself she got them. 

[PeterPan]

Just now, Runningmom80 said:

 

I did the Barton screening. She missed 3 on test c, but I think it wasn’t more how S.B. was making the sounds. (I used the video)  When I asked her to repeat the sounds myself she got them. 

I don't have it in front of me. Did she pass? 

[Runningmom80]

3 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

I don't have it in front of me. Did she pass? 

  2 wrong was passing 🤦‍♀️ETA: she didn’t miss any in the first two sections. 

Edited April 19, 2019 by Runningmom80

[PeterPan]

2 minutes ago, Runningmom80 said:

  2 wrong was passing 🤦‍♀️ETA: she didn’t miss any in the first two sections. 

Well since your complaint that she has trouble discriminating is what that section tests and she has had issues in multiple settings (enough that you were talking audiology evals) I would do what her recs say and get FIS or LIPS. There's no benefit to skipping this step and it may be the problem. I would also get audiology done pronto yes.

 

[PeterPan]

I think you're going to find backing up does more good than you expect. She needs a super strong foundation and that LIPS/FIS is a way to get it.

[Runningmom80]

13 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Well since your complaint that she has trouble discriminating is what that section tests and she has had issues in multiple settings (enough that you were talking audiology evals) I would do what her recs say and get FIS or LIPS. There's no benefit to skipping this step and it may be the problem. I would also get audiology done pronto yes.

 

 

Yes I will get one of those for sure. DH is looking up where to get the APD test done. Thank you for your help. The auditory stuff is feeling like a piece to the puzzle. 

[Storygirl]

When I ran the Barton screening with DD, she passed parts A and B but missed three on part C as well.

She had particular trouble with vowels, as well.

We were at a stage where we would not longer be homeschooling, so I didn't buy LiPS and don't have experience using it. We hired an OT tutor who was an intervention teacher at DD's school, and DD had one hour of tutoring after school twice a week.

With those two hours of tutoring per week, DD was able to break through and learn the vowels, when I had not been able to teach them for her over all of our years of homeschooling. So for me, OG is super powerful, and our tutor was a super star.

Barton is based on OG, and it's what I would have chosen if I had continued in homeschooling instead. If you need LiPs to break through that vowel barrier before Barton, I think that's a good path to try.

Or, can you find an OG tutor in your area? At two hours per week, it would be much more affordable than the dyslexia school. And I haven't priced Barton, but if your daughter and the tutor make good progress, perhaps it would be cheaper than Barton, as well.

Edited April 19, 2019 by Storygirl

[Runningmom80]

28 minutes ago, Storygirl said:

When I ran the Barton screening with DD, she passed parts A and B but missed three on part C as well.

She had particular trouble with vowels, as well.

We were at a stage where we would not longer be homeschooling, so I didn't buy LiPS and don't have experience using it. We hired an OT tutor who was an intervention teacher at DD's school, and DD had one hour of tutoring after school twice a week.

With those two hours of tutoring per week, DD was able to break through and learn the vowels, when I had not been able to teach them for her over all of our years of homeschooling. So for me, OG is super powerful, and our tutor was a super star.

Barton is based on OG, and it's what I would have chosen if I had continued in homeschooling instead. If you need LiPs to break through that vowel barrier before Barton, I think that's a good path to try.

Or, can you find an OG tutor in your area? At two hours per week, it would be much more affordable than the dyslexia school. And I haven't priced Barton, but if your daughter and the tutor make good progress, perhaps it would be cheaper than Barton, as well.

 

We do seem to have some, and the SLP specifically recommended DD do OG tutoring for the orthography she’s missing. Getting someone to call me back is another story.

 

In other news, The people at the hearing clinic were kind of annoyed I was referring my own daughter for auditory processing but they gave me an appointment anyways. 

[PeterPan]

Well a full APD eval can be $$$ and is usually done after a screener and basic audiology. But yeah, sometimes it's just an irritable person at the desk. Good for you for pushing through. So is that a screener or full eval or what?

Yes, agreeing with Story that a tutor (OG, Wilson, whatever) or an SLP who specializes in literacy could do what she needs too. It's not just spelling. She needs someone who will help her with the sound/speech connection, the phonological processing skills. She's having to jump through hoops instead of it being automatic. It's one reason we DON'T teach phonemic awareness with pictures and cue cards to kids with disabilities, because those cues/prompts rely on an implicit level of understanding rather than explicit, direct understanding of the sound/speech connection. Once she gets in with a tutor (or you get FIS or LIPS), she's going to get a multi-sensory approach to make those connections to where she goes from sound to written and written to sound. Multi-sensory is important there, and the tutor will now how and the materials will show you how. 

If you hire a tutor, that's awesome. It's a great way to make progress. If you decide to do it yourself, you'll have your learning curve but your great availability. LIPS is the most de-structured, a concept and tools, because it was developed by an SLP. I found it perfect for my ds with significant speech issues, because it gave me the tools I needed. I'm guessing FIS, which is open and go and written in the style of Barton, is an easier starting point for almost anyone. If you want your idiot-proof option (and I'm always about that), there you go. Like if you just have to choose randomly, that's what I would choose. I haven't seen it, but just saying for the average, random case should be fine. 

If you buy FIS/LIPS, you can integrate that methodology into Barton or go into Barton straight. I think a lot will come together for her very quickly at that point. SLPs who do literacy right now are doing a lot with SPELL-Links, which I keep mentioning. If you got her through FIS before summer, she could go into that summer online tutorial. It would address what seemed to be your most pressing concern, and it pulls together a lot of the new research on reading/dyslexia intervention. It's not OG, but it's sorta next generation OG. 

But I like the tutor option too, sure. All the paths will work. Just depends what you have time for and who will get it done. Done is all that matters.

[Runningmom80]

1 hour ago, PeterPan said:

Well a full APD eval can be $$$ and is usually done after a screener and basic audiology. But yeah, sometimes it's just an irritable person at the desk. Good for you for pushing through. So is that a screener or full eval or what?

Yes, agreeing with Story that a tutor (OG, Wilson, whatever) or an SLP who specializes in literacy could do what she needs too. It's not just spelling. She needs someone who will help her with the sound/speech connection, the phonological processing skills. She's having to jump through hoops instead of it being automatic. It's one reason we DON'T teach phonemic awareness with pictures and cue cards to kids with disabilities, because those cues/prompts rely on an implicit level of understanding rather than explicit, direct understanding of the sound/speech connection. Once she gets in with a tutor (or you get FIS or LIPS), she's going to get a multi-sensory approach to make those connections to where she goes from sound to written and written to sound. Multi-sensory is important there, and the tutor will now how and the materials will show you how. 

If you hire a tutor, that's awesome. It's a great way to make progress. If you decide to do it yourself, you'll have your learning curve but your great availability. LIPS is the most de-structured, a concept and tools, because it was developed by an SLP. I found it perfect for my ds with significant speech issues, because it gave me the tools I needed. I'm guessing FIS, which is open and go and written in the style of Barton, is an easier starting point for almost anyone. If you want your idiot-proof option (and I'm always about that), there you go. Like if you just have to choose randomly, that's what I would choose. I haven't seen it, but just saying for the average, random case should be fine. 

If you buy FIS/LIPS, you can integrate that methodology into Barton or go into Barton straight. I think a lot will come together for her very quickly at that point. SLPs who do literacy right now are doing a lot with SPELL-Links, which I keep mentioning. If you got her through FIS before summer, she could go into that summer online tutorial. It would address what seemed to be your most pressing concern, and it pulls together a lot of the new research on reading/dyslexia intervention. It's not OG, but it's sorta next generation OG. 

But I like the tutor option too, sure. All the paths will work. Just depends what you have time for and who will get it done. Done is all that matters.

 

OK, this is probably a dumb question, but I have no shame so here it goes...will the OG tutoring also help with the dysgraphia? The SLP seemed to think it was DD missing piece and it would, but from what I'm reading the OG stuff sounds like it's the dyslexia piece and I still need to figure out the dysgraphia. Her hand writing isn't horrible, it's the actual getting the words out. 

If someone already answered this, I am truly sorry. I'm going to re read this thread this afternoon and check my notes to make sure I got everything.

I also got a few books from the library too, one is Ungifted, I heard the author on the Tilt parenting podcast and was really interested in his story. I also got the Mislabeled Child but flipping through it, I don't know how helpful it will be. 

 

ETA: I'm looking at SPELL-links, it looks interesting!

Edited April 19, 2019 by Runningmom80

[PeterPan]

There is no dumb question.   Dysgraphia is the thing I understand least, and Story will have all the categories and subtypes and all that. The thing is, if she's having organization issues, thought through brain to pen issues, then improving the spelling doesn't solve that. So you can have dysgraphia even after the dyslexia is remediated, yes. When I go in tutoring practices, they're addressing writing as far as organization, sentence complexity, ability to TYPE, etc., yes, absolutely. They're not even sitting there splitting hairs like oh this kid needs it and that doesn't. Nope, at the practice we did an intake with, those kids were all getting the full gamut. That was a practice run by an SLP. Don't even get me started on the idea that some person is doing intervention on one aspect and isn't trained on the REST.

So if you're asking whether you need FULL intervention, not just decoding, the answer is yes. If someone is trained in OG but NOT in all the rest, then how are you making her function as a whole? It's a huge beef right now. So if you get an intervention specialist, somebody who has broader training, an SLP, whatever, then sure they're going to address ALL the issues. You want to see that EVERYTHING is being addressed, yes.

We talked OT and I go back to this. On the line, not on the line, that's OT. Now for my ds where the load maxing out shows up is just how it all falls apart. Like he's not going to have them all the correct case, with punctuation, everything together, because he's not going to be able to do everything at once. So one small bit in isolation, he's gonna nail it. But for functional writing, he can't do everything at once. And currently to write a sentence from his head directly through to handwriting, hang it up. I would not underestimate the value of OT here. At least get the eval. OT is typically FUN and it's not arduous. It should be covered by your insurance. Get that reflex integrated and the rest tested, get some OT. Prairie and I were discussing when to stop, but think about how functional her kid got. Way more functional than mine. There was more to be had and trying was worth something. So to stop when you've stopped making progress makes sense. To stop if it's cutting out something MORE important makes sense. But right now you don't have the eval and don't know what progress she could make.

The OG tutor will want her to be able to hand write if at all possible. So getting that OT eval would be SMART. If there's an OT issue making it harder, you want to know. It can be mental strain, like kbbutton said. It can also be core strength or something fixable. Her VMI was low and that means an OT referral is appropriate. But look for an OT who specializes in handwriting. Ours is a super gem, very naturalistic, gentle. She does more fun stuff to back door and give context to writing than anyone I've ever seen, lol. Art projects, STEM projects, scratch paper, you name it.

Yeah, books are funny. You're going to be post on them pretty soon.

Yes, SPELL-Links is cool, isn't it? I'm just giving alternatives, not saying a preference. All the paths would get you there. Her progress is going to be proportional to the frequency of the intervention and the intensity, but it doesn't really matter if it's Wilson, OG, SPELL-Links, with an SLP or tutor or you, whatever. The main thing is frequency and going at it.

[Storygirl]

This is anecdotal and based on my own kids only, so it may not apply to you.

DD13's dygraphia diagnosis was based on the fact that her spelling was so horrid that there wasn't a way for the psych to evaluate the content; it was illegible, due to spelling. But she didn't have the writing-is-so-laborous-it's-painful-to-get-thoughts-out kind. She was willing to write but would spell everything creatively.

She has had writing intervention at her school, because all of the instruction at her school is intervention based. They have taught a kind of note-taking that they call two-column notes. They have had the kids log their reading by writing at least three sentences (they started with one sentence and worked up to three) about their required reading for the day. They have had them read a history passage and then write down three sentences with facts that they learned. They have had them write an article for a newsletter, which was a few paragraphs long. I think one article DD did was about the new fish tank in the lobby, and another was about the school musical (she was in it).

Most of the writing is done at school, so I haven't seen the process, but they are actually teaching all of the skills and doing these things over longer periods of time than a public school would. They allow speech to text, so that they can dictate into their computers and then edit with spellcheck and Grammarly.

So there is OG instruction, and then there is the writing instruction. They weave OG into the writing instruction. For example, DD's goals would be to USE her phonics when she is writing, because she would tend to not care about the spelling, so the teachers would then work with her toward that goal.

During her tutoring, DD would have to write some things, but it was not like the above description of what she does at school for writing.

Now the affect of this is that DD's spelling and handwriting have both improved immensely. When her brain is not having to think so hard about encoding the sounds, she can use her brain power for the other aspects of writing instead, so the content and length of her writing have matured, as well.

So I would say that writing instruction has to be added. Barton, I think, has writing instruction within the program.

[Runningmom80]

Thank you. I just remembered one name the SLP gave me can help with the OG and the written expression. We will do OT eval too because it can't hurt, and my insurance covers it.

[Storygirl]

So DS15 does not have dyslexia, but he has dysgraphia. He has a hard time getting thoughts to paper.

As a side note, before I get into DS, both of my children were for a time drawing their letters instead of having automaticity.

When DD13 started learning to write in K and first grade, her letters were so perfect that she could have won a handwriting competition; it was impressive. But once she started to write sentence of her own instead of doing copywork, her handwriting deteriorated into a scrawl. She could draw the letters perfectly, but she could not get them out well when she was writing her thoughts.

DS15 always was sloppy with handwriting. I actually did not make that a battle with him, because we battled too much over other things anyway, so when he was young, he had to do his handwriting pages, but I did not oversee his work so tightly that he had to line up all of his letters exactly on the line and make them all the perfect shape, etc. like handwriting curricula want the kids to do. Making the letters so that someone could read them was good enough. And he learned to do that.

But then when he was in fifth grade (which I remember because it was the first year he went to school), he did a lot of weird things like making random jabbing marks all around his papers. And adding fancy curliques to his letters or adding big decorative dots to his letters. He is not an artistic person who was trying to make his letters look like caligraphy. He was just trying out drawing his letters in different ways, because drawing letters is what writing was like for him.

That was kind of phase that the school asked me about.

Then he got past that and his letters became more automatic so that he could write faster, and then he went into phase where he would write as super quickly as he could to get it over with, so that everything was very rushed and sloppy. He either couldn't or didn't want to slow down and do it better (hard to tell with him, much of the time).

During this period, he also made up a comic book character and would make lots of comic books by stapling blank pages and drawing on them. They were surprisingly good and charming. His character was named Pizza Pete, and he could actually tell a story. I showed some of these at his initial IEP meeting, and then I contrasted them with a paragraph that he was meant to write about George Washington. Three sentences, which were all very simplistic. And the first and last sentences were identical. It was such a sharp contrast compared to what he could do when writing creatively.

DS has fine motor difficulties, and he has trouble keeping his letters and numbers on the lines on the pages (he is much better at this now), but his main problem with dysgraphia is organizing his thoughts and then getting them onto the paper. So he can have a creative idea like Pizza Pete and get it onto the paper on his own. But when he is asked to assimilate information and write it down in a cohesive paragraph, things fall apart.

DS had a ton of help with his writing from the intervention teacher in sixth and seventh grade (same teacher who was DD13's OG tutor -- love her!!), and he learned to write a paragraph through direct instruction (lots of it) on how to do it, with everything broken into small steps and with the use of graphic organizers.

He still has more problems with things like short answers on tests, where he has to collect his thoughts and get them onto the paper. He doesn't get to think about it and revise, the way he can when he is writing a paragraph or essay for his English class. Targeting short answers was another specific skill that his previous intervention teacher worked on with him. One of the things she taught him is to always start by restating the question as the beginning of his first sentence. So if the question is, "Why does the moon change shape," his answer would start with, "The moon changes shape because..."

He also does much better at getting his words out when he types instead of using handwriting. Typing is a super accommodation for many dyslexics, and if your daughter can write better when typing, let her do that whenever possible.

These are scattered thoughts. I'm tired today, so they probably aren't as cohesive as I would like.

 

Edited April 19, 2019 by Storygirl

[Storygirl]

Accommodations DS15 has had from the school in his IEP include:

Graph paper for math problems

Paper with fewer problems on it and more white space to write in

A paper to do math problems on that has big squares, one square for each problem, because using the graph paper and getting each number into a tiny square was not happening.

Copies of notes from the board

Copies of study guides filled in, because for awhile he could not get the answers onto the correct lines when copying from the board (he can do this himself this year)

Extra time for writing assignments

Preferred seating in class

Fewer problems to do; once he shows he can do it, he doesn't have to keep doing math problems just to finish a page of problems.

Graphic organizers for writing

Assignments broken into chunks by the teacher

Opportunities to show that he knows the material without having to write it (ex: answer test questions orally. But he would hate this and has never done it).

Speech to text, so that he can dictate (I am not sure he uses this accommodation, but DD13 with dyslexia does)

I think there are more, but that gives you an idea. The OT put a lot of these into his IEP, even though he did not qualify for services with her.

Oh, he also likes a certain kind of pencil and a particular pencil grippy thing. He prefers mechanical pencils, but he just snaps the lead due to pressing hard, so I get the kind of barrel that takes a .7mm lead instead of a skinnier lead. I have sometimes been able to put .9mm lead into the .7mm pencil when I refill. He used to use a fatter mechanical pencil that used a 1.3mm lead, but he won't any more now that he is older.

[Runningmom80]

Thank you story, that is all very helpful!

[Runningmom80]

Heigh Ho, thank you! for that link, I'm going to check it out. 

 I'm SOOOO curious now about the auditory piece. DD and her twin had multiple ear infections from 6 months - 2 years. Both were speech delayed.  Her twin got tubes, ENT said DD didn't need tubes.  Pediatrician wasn't worried about speech but I knew these kids could speak if they had help. I called early intervention and they definitely flagged for speech delay. We did twice month speech therapy for 4 months and they were caught up. DS had 100% blockage in one ear and the other ear was pretty clogged too, which the ENT was convinced contributed to his speech delay. DD, I don't know what her deal was! I always said "she was just waiting for her brother," but now I'm wondering if something else is going on. It all seems to be connected now. 

I'm sorry for all the questions. It seems the more answers you all give me, the more questions I have.  🤣

 

Thank you for taking time out of your days to help me!

[Lecka]

http://www.readingrockets.org/shows/launching/brain

Here is a link about auditory processing and dyslexia.

My son had speech therapy for phonological processing, he had trouble telling apart several pairs of consonants that sound similar, and he also had trouble with hearing l and r blends.  He elided a lot of beginning sounds in words to w.  So we had the stuff similar to LIPS too, but through speech therapy.  He qualified for speech therapy anyway, so it’s not that he just went for this.  But they ended up working on it to help his articulation.  

Another book that has a decent amount of information is The Mislabeled Child also by the Eides.  The chapter about autism I find very dated, but the other chapters are good and it has a little about auditory processing too.  

My son has turned out not to seem to have “more to it” as far as auditory processing, I thought he might when he was younger.  

[kbutton]

4 hours ago, Runningmom80 said:

In other news, The people at the hearing clinic were kind of annoyed I was referring my own daughter for auditory processing but they gave me an appointment anyways. 

Snort. I would be surprised if they have an intuitive way for referrals to happen from other sources that is known to parents. 

Good for you to self-refer. I suspect you're going to find the testing informative!

[PeterPan]

How is her narrative language now? That vocabulary test was proxy and stuff gets missed. 

[Runningmom80]

To me her narrative language is great. I’m probably pretty biased though. I’m wondering if the SLP we used does narrative language testing but I’m almost afraid to know what she’ll charge me. 

 

I do think objectively, DD’s issues are “underground.” She presents as a bright, funny child. DH said something about Einstein being dyslexic and she said “He also never wore socks so what does that tell you?” 😂

[lewelma]

Both of my kids have struggled with spelling, but for somewhat different reasons.  My older boy had auditory processing problems which caused him to mispronounce most words because he could not actually process sound well enough to repeat it.  Unfortunately, he learned to read before we got his speech cleaned up with a speech therapist.  This meant that he actually mapped the wrong letters to the sounds.  So he might write 'dot' for cat, because he would be saying 'dot' and knew that the d sound was coded with a c from his reading. When I realized this, I was horrified. It wasn't that he couldn't spell, it was way worse than that.  He had mapped the wrong letters to the sounds. So I did the research, and chose SWR - Spelling to Write and Read. It is in the family of AAS but more of a linguistic approach perhaps.  He used it for 4 years, and I considered it nothing short of a miracle that this program could clean up the mess that was my ds's spelling. 

Younger Son.  

I did not know that younger ds had dysgraphia until about the age of 11. Before that I think I was just scaffolding so much that I simply couldn't see it. I finally had him tested at age 12. His dysgraphia falls into 5 categories:

1) Spelling: When ds was first learning to spell in primary school, I didn't realize he had dysgraphia. Because I had already used SWR with my older, I used it with my younger to made sure that his phonological skills were excellent, that he knew every single letter combination, that he knew every single rule for adding endings.  All of this was like the back of his hand. SWR is a powerful program.  But younger ds could still not spell.  What was lacking was automation. So after 3 years of SWR, we tried 7 other spelling programs!  Clearly, my head was end the sand, as I never even considered getting him tested. At the age of 12, he was still sounding every single word out. The problem was automation. I think 'cat' and write 'cat' without thinking, this was not true for him for any word except 'the.'  And while sounding out every single word, he would completely loose what he was trying to say in his writing.  He would also spell the same word three different ways in the same paragraph, all of which followed the rules he had learned so were valid combinations. And he still struggled with recognizing that words he was using in speech were a base word with an ending. So "hiding" was just one thing, not the word 'hide' with the ending 'ing' that he would know the rules for.  So if you asked him to add an ending to a word, he could, but if you spoke a word that already had an ending, he would not know how to spell it because he could not see that there was a base word inside it.

2) Punctuation: In addition, at the age of 12, he still had no sense of what a sentence was so was completely unable to add periods let alone commas.  We had done grammar with MCT and another program whose name I forget, but he still could not identify a subject or even a verb unless it was an exercise in a textbook.  And his language was so complex that it was not easy to show him in his own writing, but practicing punctuating simpler writing never translated into his own because his structure was way more advanced.  

3) Physical handwriting: Even today at age 15, he can write numbers, but cannot write words. Basically, his brain is not automating the creation of letters.  So an 'o' is an a-stop as he calls it.  A's are automated, so to make an 'o' he has to make an a, and then remember to stop the motion to make an 'o'. But interestingly, his brain is fine to make a zero, it is not an a-stop, even though it is the same exact shape. Most of his letters are a combination of 2 strokes that he must recall.  Once again, nothing is automated.  This means that to physically write a word, not only must he sound it out, he also must recall how to form each letter. Currently at the age of 15.5 he can write very legible handwriting at a top speed of 9 words per minute.

4) Organizing ideas: He has always had beautiful adult-level creative writing, but his report and argumentation writing was impossibly difficult for him.  We used IEW for a while, hoping that it would help him with the basics of structure, but he just couldn't implement any system. He couldn't seem to get his thoughts into a set structure. He couldn't remember that he needed an intro sentence and then supporting points and then a conclusion.  It wasn't that sentences were jumbled or unclear -- as I said, he has adult-level style with participle phrases, clauses, noun absolutes, advanced vocabulary etc.  And if he was on a 'roll', he could produce amazing non-fiction writing.  But if ever he was uncertain what to write, he had nothing to fall back on.  He could not get anything down.  The web of ideas could not be structured into linear form through intellectual effort or outlining.  Either he had intuition and flow, or he could write absolutely nothing.  There was nothing in the middle.

5) coding mental math into written form: explained in previous post.   

My solutions:

1) At the age of 11, we decided to do a big push with handwritten work for a full year.  The goal was to increase speed. I dictated to him sentences that he had written in previous work.  We set timers, we charted progress, we celebrated every small success.....  This was an absolute waste of time.  He never picked up speed, there was no way to rush him, his spelling did not improve, and all it did was create stress.  At the age of 12, we decided to abandon handwriting with the exception of math, and I only wished I had done it sooner. During that year, he had concurrently learned to touch type, but because he could not spell any of the words, he could not go faster than 10 words per minute.  People would tell me that spell check would be his friend, but he still had to get the general idea of spelling 'helicopter' for spell check to recognize it.  He still had to sound out every. single. word.  Words like cat, with, boy... let alone all the big words. He could type 30 words a minute if he was copying, but only 10 if he was having to spell the words.

2) At the age of 12, we abandoned all spelling programs (we had tried about 8 by that time) and switched to typing dictation.  I had considered Speech to Text at that point, but my ds and I decided together that we were not ready to go that way as a permanent solution.  The goal of typing dictation (as we called it) was to automate the basic words.  This dictation was not SWB's dictation where the kid is supposed to hold the sentence in her head; nor was is studied dictation like Spelling Wisdom (which we also tried). The goal of our dictation was automation of spelling.  We started to 'Cat in the Hat' because he still could not spell the top 100 words. I would dictate a phrase of like 3-5 words, (I kept to the language groupings to help him begin to hear them), and as he typed I would correct word for word.  During this time, I taught him 'think-to-spell' where you purposely mispronounce a word so that the spelling becomes regular (he knew all the rules); we created sounds for all schwas in words; I would help with spelling by simply breaking the words into syllables; I would remind him of basic ending rules, etc.  Not a lecture, just as we went with a few words as possible so I didn't break the flow.  We worked like this for 30 minutes per day 5 days a week, 45 weeks a year, for 3 years. He loved it.  Go figure. Basically, I came to believe that he just needed to put spelling in context of writing, and that he needed immediate feedback when the word was spelling wrong, and that he just needed to do this for many many sentences.  Over the years, we slowly moved up the book level to Frog and Toad, then older readers, then Narnia, then other fantasy novels he liked.  By the second year, I started punctuation study.  I would tell him after a clause "add a comma because its an introductory clause."  I would use official grammar words, and not make a lecture, just something quick. But over and over and over. What had been lacking in spelling was automation, and what had been lacking in punctuation was both real world application and drill drill drill. This process worked!  It worked beyond all my expectations.  And best of all, he loved it.  

During these years of typing dictation, we also trialed every possible combination to help him organize his ideas (#4 above).  We tried a dictaphone, mind-mapping, list making, speech-to-text. We tried me scribing; we tried me scribing only every other paragraph; we tried him verbally saying what he wanted to say 3 times before writing; we tried funny speed games "why is this item the 'best'"; we tried easy topics; we tried hard topics; we tried research;  we tried studying other writing;  we tried outlining other writing; we tried Ben Franklin's approach of rewrites. We we tried Every. Single. Thing. I could think of.  And I just felt like we got nowhere.  It was very discouraging for me, although I was very encouraging to him and he never knew that I thought we were spinning our wheels. We were making progress, but it was very very slow. 

3) At the age of 15, we quit the typing dictation because I felt that we had made very good progress. He was typing now at about 25 words a minute, he was spelling 80% of words correctly even in difficult books, and could mostly punctuate complex sentences. This was huge given where we started from!! And best of all, ds was feeling good about himself and the progress he had made.  Thus, we moved full focus into writing his own content. We started this new focus 6 months ago. Because he is interested in being a geographer and studying complex issues, he wants to be able to research and write up creative solutions to complex problems.  He has a goal, and this has been very motivating. We decided to go after deep complex topics with high interest and work with engaging questions which required research and processing and organizing.  This seems like a backwards approach, going for difficult writing projects when we had had little success with organizing ideas, but the high interest was the key to the motivation.  I figured we would get further with lots of scaffolding for hard projects, than focusing on independence for easy projects. I will admit, however, that I was nervous about taking this approach, because I knew it would be difficult to tell how much of the work was his work vs mine.

Now 6 months later, he has written 3 research papers: 1) The causes and consequences of the 2004 Tsunami in Ache Indonesia from a cultural and environmental point of view. 2) An analysis of why the population demographic transitions of Maori vs Europeans in NZ were so different over the past 180 years. 3) the cultural and environmental causes and consequences of the 55-year Wataki Dam Scheme in the South Island. It is hard for me to overstate the success we have had with these 3 projects.  Massive massive success.  It is as if the three years from 12-15 where we separated out all the skills and worked on them individually, have all come together in a cohesive whole. All those years of working on organizing his ideas that felt like a waste of time, were not.  It was seeping in, just not showing up because he could not yet write it all down.  I am still scaffolding, and I still have to sit next to him sometimes when he writes, and I have scribed for him a few paragraphs in these reports when he is just too tired but wants to keep the momentum up. However, the scaffolding required for the last paper has been way less than the first paper.  And with 2.5 years to go until graduation, I feel that we are finally on track.  I will still be remediating and accomodating, but now we are doing this *at level* rather than years behind. 

4) The future: we will continue with these large-scale, high-interest projects.  I will continue to be highly involved with the research, outlining, writing, and editing -- strongly scaffolding where needed, but slowly ever so slowly backing off and encouraging independence.  At this point, we are going to start 2 new ventures into the world of dysgraphia: 1) trying to write up chemistry and physics explanations which he will need to do for his national exams.  Scientific explanations are a different type of writing, with different language that he has to learn, but I think he is ready. 2) We are going to actually try to get him to physically write again.  He has been writing his math all this time, so his hand is reasonably strong.  We are going to start by drilling letters (we did this the other day with lots of giggles given he is 15), and we are going to see if he can write a sentence each day, and see where this leads us.  No pressure, but he wants to try.

Now, I know I have written a book here.  I have done it for two reasons.  1) once I got going I really wanted to document our path as I have never written it all out before. 2) I am hoping to give you a realistic vision of what remediating dysgraphia looks like over the long haul. There is no way around it, dysgraphia is a bitch and impacts all aspects of a child's education. Remediating it is long hard work for both teacher and student, but it can be done in a way that is positive and good for a child's self-esteem.  I have never regretted the time and effort I have put into this project.  And I had a friend just yesterday say to me that it is amazing that ds is so proud of himself, that he doesn't feel stupid, and that I never discuss him in a negative way.  DS does not mind me talking about his dysgraphia because he feels it is a part of who he is, and overcoming its is a testament to his hard persistent work over many many years. I also want you to know that you will likely make many wrong turns, and that you will be wandering in the dark, wondering if your approach is the most optimal.  This is just the nature of the beast. As I tried to show, there were things that I did that I shouldn't have done, and there were things that at the time seemed to make no difference, but then later were shown to be incredibly helpful. 

Good luck to you and your dd. Slow and steady wins the race. 

Ruth in NZ

[Runningmom80]

Ruth I can only hope I do for my daughter half the good you’ve done for your son.

Everyone in this thread is inspiring, your kids are all lucky to have you. 

Thank you thank you thank you.

[lewelma]

11 minutes ago, Runningmom80 said:

Ruth I can only hope I do for my daughter half the good you’ve done for your son.

Thanks for that.  Very few people in my life really understand how difficult this has been and how hard I have tried to do well by my son.

But luckily for your dd, you are starting 4 years earlier than I did. This could make a world of difference.  

[Lecka]

I saw a previous post about trouble remembering some phonograms.  When you see that, you can review.  You can look for words with that phonogram and highlight, or practice a word list, or something fun and multisensory, etc.  It is good to review.  It doesn’t hurt anything.  You might see things to review for a long-ish time.  

For the vowels being a mess, personally I am going to say that having a flash card and rattling off sounds is not a must, or — if it’s not happening, it can be better to look at other options than to continue drilling the flash card.  If it is not sticking she is probably not getting a lot out of it!  It is probably not helping her to learn in the way it is intended.  

There are other ways to practice.  It is okay not to worry about all the sounds starting out.  

Is she solid on short vowel sounds?  Can she tell apart short e and short i?  Can she do short vowels really well?  If she can — that’s great.  

But I think if the vowels are a mess, go all the way back to just short vowels and see how they are.  Try with identifying sounds.  Try with word ladders where you have a CVC word and change one letter.  Can she go easily back and forth between bad and bed and bid and bud.  Can you put in some made-up words on these, where you know they aren’t just known words. 

It would honestly not be surprising at all if you see she has problems with just short vowels.  

If she does, don’t even worry about all the sounds for the vowels.  

But the long vowel sounds I think usually are easier than the short vowel sounds, so they probably will be easier.  But there’s no reason to work on them (and maybe confuse the short vowel sounds) if she is confusing any short vowel sounds or just not solid, seeming to need time/effort or sometimes (but kind-of frequently) making mistakes.  

You can see on this and then there are a lot of ideas for short vowel sounds.  There is stuff with looking at your mouth in the mirror, etc.  And at a certain point this is where something like LIPS can come in.  It is good for telling apart those sounds.  

It is scary because it is supposed to be so easy and basic, for a 4-year-old to learn, etc, but this is just a “supposed to be” and this is something that can be really hard and then other things can be much easier (and easier than expected).  

 

[Lecka]

I am going to add too, you should probably check her phonograms with nonsense words too.  

But if she is solid on ALL the phonograms (through AAR 2), from flash cards, except oi and the vowels — then I do think that is good!

But check on the short vowels and see.  And review oi.  

But if you see that she has forgotten the flash cards and picks them up with review — and in the past she was solid — that is different than if she has never stayed really solid and often had mistakes and confusions.  

[Lecka]

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/57891644bebafbbe871a567f/t/57a4ed4a2994ca6cbb8a8a4e/1470426447707/ABCD_Assessment.pdf

This is just something where I know where this page is that includes nonsense words.  

There are nonsense words on pages 3 and 5.  You can see if there is a difference in how she knows the phonograms or in how she sounds out.  With nonsense words you can see if she may be memorizing words (instead of using the good strategies) or if she is using a lot of comprehension strategies to help her. 

It’s just an easy thing to check.

She might have already had nonsense words on her testing, too, some testing uses them.  

But if she has a much harder time, it can mean it would be good to go through more and use a program that includes a lot of nonsense words.  It is supposed to prevent kids from memorizing or using context, and not necessarily sounding out properly.  

In “real reading” there are other strategies that help that go along with sounding-out, but sounding-out needs to be good, for there not to be over-reliance on the other strategies.  Sounding out is supposed to be the foundation for everything else.  If it is weak — this is where compensating comes in.  Other strategies can be used to “compensate.”  

[Lecka]

I think a lot depends on what you see.  If her vowels are really a mess you can intervene more than if they are going to clear up (and stay cleared up lol) with a bit more practice.  

If they don’t you can intervene more intensively for sure.  

You could think about starting with AAR 2, it starts with mostly just short vowel sounds (I can’t remember when it starts long vowels).

I think if she is confused with the short vowel sounds (beyond her getting it with some review, being pretty solid, being able to do word chains), then it’s okay to work on that and see.  

I think it just depends.  

There is nothing wrong with going back a level or with looking at other programs, though.  

I think AAR 2 is a really fun level, too, the storybooks are very enjoyable to me.  You can see what you think, though. 

If you end thinking more “she has some vowel issues, we need to clear them up,” then I think do that, and it’s okay to go through AAR more slowly and start with level 2.  

Or anything!

But I think — it’s not something where people will say “go ahead, she will pick it up.”  It’s more of a “get it solid” situation.  Not to be too rigid but just — it’s okay not to go ahead to AAR 3 even though she is smart and a little older.  Being smart and having more maturity are positives, but not a reason to rush through things that are “supposed to be” easy but are not easy.  

[maikon]

22 hours ago, lewelma said:

Remediating it is long hard work for both teacher and student, but it can be done in a way that is positive and good for a child's self-esteem.  I have never regretted the time and effort I have put into this project.  And I had a friend just yesterday say to me that it is amazing that ds is so proud of himself, that he doesn't feel stupid, and that I never discuss him in a negative way.  DS does not mind me talking about his dysgraphia because he feels it is a part of who he is, and overcoming its is a testament to his hard persistent work over many many years. I also want you to know that you will likely make many wrong turns, and that you will be wandering in the dark, wondering if your approach is the most optimal.  This is just the nature of the beast.

@lewelma, you and your son have put in tremendous effort to achieve these targets in a positive way. Whenever I make any such effort to remediate my son's (9 year old) skills, I face huge protests from him. He would gladly work on it for the first few days or weeks. Gradually he throws tantrums and arguments. He finishes the task with a lot of complaints or bad behaviour that I eventually give up. As you mentioned, it is hard work for both teacher and student. Have you faced any such troubles with your DS while continuing with a task for over several years? How do you maintain your student's motivation and attention for such long periods of time. Most importantly, how do you not lose your patience and up your motivation levels? Can you please share some of your strategies?

[lewelma]

3 hours ago, maikon said:

@lewelma, you and your son have put in tremendous effort to achieve these targets in a positive way. Whenever I make any such effort to remediate my son's (9 year old) skills, I face huge protests from him. He would gladly work on it for the first few days or weeks. Gradually he throws tantrums and arguments. He finishes the task with a lot of complaints or bad behaviour that I eventually give up. As you mentioned, it is hard work for both teacher and student. Have you faced any such troubles with your DS while continuing with a task for over several years? How do you maintain your student's motivation and attention for such long periods of time. Most importantly, how do you not lose your patience and up your motivation levels? Can you please share some of your strategies?

 

Yes, I have definitely struggled with motivation and with being very discouraged, and yes, I so has my ds. But I think in the end we feel like we are in this together, and we remind each other that bad attitude is not ok. He reminds me as much as I remind him. 

The most important thing I think I did was to let his strengths run.  This approach convinced him that he had skills and talent. So all the stuff I talked about in my previous post was only a small part of his day.  We did high-end math orally; he read difficult science books every day; he learned to play the violin; I scribed for him his amazing stories; and his dad read and discussed complex books on numerous topics.  Most days he felt like a smart, accomplished kid who had the world in front of him.  

For the remediation part, I did everything I could to make him feel empowered. I found techniques to try, but I encouraged him to decide what was working and what was not. We focused on metacognition - how does he learn, how can he use his skills to shore up his weaknesses, how long should he work, when can he identify that he is becoming less effective, how can he use the Charlotte Mason habit of "The Way of the Will" - if you don't like a thought, then change it. He was empowered. Everyday. And on days that he could just not do something, we just didn't do it. But we always made a plan to do it later.  When he mentioned his older brother and wondered why he had things so good, we would discuss the idea that you cannot be some hybrid person - the best of you and the best of him.  You are either ALL your brother or you are yourself.  Do you really want all the negatives that your brother has in order to get the positives? The answer was always no. So we focused on him being him.  We celebrated what he offered the world that others can't.  He has so much charisma that I made sure that he was in lots of activities with lots of positive interactions every day, just check out my siggy.  And these activities were not in academics, so he was focusing on *life* not academics, focusing on what he was good at.  Basically, I've made sure that his life is 90% positive and uplifting, and 10% remediation and long, difficult, sometimes discouraging work.

I also followed his lead on what he needed, and in the end he needed *me*. For a long time, he could not do *anything* on his own. I think there just was a fear of failure, but also simply the inability to write. So for all remediation work, we did it together.  I never assigned him something to do on his own that would be hard, because he just wouldn't do it, or couldn't do it. He could write his math, but I had to sit with him. He could read his books, but I had to sit with him.  I had to do the dictation, I had to scribe, I had to help him outline. I had to hold his hand all the time.  I read posts from people saying 'what can your 9 year do independently?'  And I laugh, because only at 13 could my ds play the violin and read his science independently, every single other thing he needed me for.  Luckily for me, I only had two children.  So I worked 4 hours with my younger before doing 3 hours with my older, then tutoring for 2 hours. If I had had many kids, I'm not sure how this would have played out. People talk about helicopter parenting, and doing too much for a child so they don't become independent. But I have decided those people can just stick their comments where the sun don't shine, because they don't know me and they don't know my kid. 

As for me, I very much have felt that every day I have to put on my big-girl panties and get the job done.  I have found the last 4 years very difficult and draining. But when I signed up to homeschool, I signed up to work. I despised tying-dictation as much as he loved it. And every morning, I would get my cup of tea and my chocolate, and find it in myself to tolerate 30 minutes of correcting word for word his spelling. I just did it because I had to, and I put a smile on my face and joy in my voice no matter what I was feeling inside.  And luckily for me I read posts early on from some of the old timers on this board who discussed how kids pick up speed in high school, and how a 13 year old is a very different learner from a 17 year old, which helped me trust that he would pick up speed as he matured. I focused on keeping track of the very small improvements that I saw over the months.  It is easy to lose track of incremental change when you have a project that you have broken down into 1000 pieces for 1000 days. Can you actually see 1/1000th of an improvement each day?  Well, I tried to. And whatever I saw that was positive step forward each day, I would tell my ds to let him see his improvement, to help him believe in himself and in the work we were doing. I kept a journal with ideas and success stories, reviewed every term what we had accomplished, and then made a plan for the next term to build on our successes. Once a year, I would make a huge list of everything we had done, so although the daily improvements were small and often hard to see, the annual improvements were huge.  When I got blue, I would remember how far we had come the previous year, and trust that my incremental daily program would produce similar results in the current year. Some days, I kept myself going by thinking about the boy my son would have been had he attended school. The boy who would have failed everything, who would think he was stupid, who likely would have dropped out by now. This is the alternative reality that existed for my son, and I remind myself that it is through my hard work and dedication that it is a fate he avoided. 

Ruth in NZ

Edited April 21, 2019 by lewelma

[Runningmom80]

NM

(Entering beating a dead horse territory)

 

Edited April 21, 2019 by Runningmom80

[maikon]

Thank you so much, lewelma! Lots of wisdom in your post and I'm learning a lot.

[PeterPan]

3 hours ago, Runningmom80 said:

NM

(Entering beating a dead horse territory)

 

My horse is eating chocolate cake.

[Runningmom80]

Ok, the Lindamood-Bell stuff looks amazing. It's so bleeping expensive!  I know SB recommends LIPS. Seeing Stars talks about the orthography which the SLP said DD needs. Does anyone know the difference between the 2? 

 

ETA: FIS looks much easier to implement so I will probably go with that. Then to Barton and then what comes after Barton? (I just want to look at all the possibilities!)

ETAA: I'm seriously considering Wilson training. I originally put my kids in school so I could go back to school to either get an MA in library sciences or become a literary specialist. This seems like a little stepping stone. My DD will need help in the meantime of course. I'm not sure why I'm telling you all this, maybe I'm curious if these diagnosis gave anyone else crazy ideas? I might have eaten too much candy...

Edited April 21, 2019 by Runningmom80

[Kanin]

Popping in to say that I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE LiPS. I would say that it's easy to implement. It's amazing for getting kids to distinguish all of the sounds, and it's superb for phonemic awareness training, which is the foundation of all future reading.

Wilson is awesome too! That's what I use at my public school. I love it. You can do LiPS and Wilson simultaneously. They are both rad 😎 

Let me know if you have questions about either.

And yes, the Lindamood-Bell stuff is expensive, but it's worth it, at least I think it is.

[Kanin]

I originally got ineterested in dyslexia after working for a summer at a Lindamood-Bell summer tutoring program. I had never thought about it, or teaching, before. Totally changed my life!

So, yes, I'd suggest going into literacy intervention as a career. It's lots of fun, and very needed!  Lots of states are starting to pass laws about dyslexia screening and/or the type of interventions to be used, so you would be in demand. Depending on where you are, you could be in high demand.

Edited April 21, 2019 by Mainer

[Kanin]

LiPS teaches phonemic awareness, the awareness of the sounds within words. It helps with similar sounding sounds (b/p, t/d, f,v, etc) and vowels, among other things. The teacher manual for LiPS is excellent.

Seeing Stars teaches kids to visualize the letters in their minds, and to make changes - for example, "visualize" the word "cat," then change the t to a p, and what letters do you "see?" C-A-P, cap. You also ask questions like, "What's the third letter you see? The middle letter? Now say them backwards. Now, forwards again." You're teaching kids to hold the visual representation of the letters in their minds, like on an invisible whiteboard.

 

I'm more of a LiPS fan, but I like both. 

Edited April 21, 2019 by Mainer

[Lecka]

I was able to watch a YouTube video of a small group doing Seeing Stars.  It was on YouTube at the time.

If you see a need for Lips then definitely do Lips.  If Lips is needed then do it.  Or FIS or whatever will address that need.  

Iirc Seeing Stars was something that had visualization strategies for spelling words and a box of flash cards for spelling words to memorize.  I wouldn’t use it for reading.  But I looked at it for spelling.  It does not have the reputation of LIPS.

In Lindamood Bell, the two programs that *really* have good reputations are Lips and Visualizing and Verbalizing (popular for autism).  They just are.  

I think — I don’t know if you need to do Lips.  Do you know your daughter has trouble with letter sounds?  Are her vowel sounds a matter of — it’s a few sounds, you could try some things, maybe you don’t need to go all the way to a Lips level of intervention?  I don’t know.  It is a high level of intervention, you might not need it.  If you do need that level, it is very worthwhile.

For context for me, my older son had a 3-year articulation delay when he was in 1st grade.  This is why he could do phonological processing in speech therapy.

There are lower-key things you can try first, if you want to.  

For Seeing Stars, I thought it had some good strategies for working on spelling but I thought some of it was the kind of thing where you could get a couple of ideas to use without buying the curriculum.  I am typically someone who does not spend a lot though, so take that with a grain of salt for sure.  

 

 

[Lecka]

https://blog.allaboutlearningpress.com/short-i-short-e-confusion/

This is an example of something more low key.  If it is enough to help that is great, if not — more is needed.  

If it is available from your library, the book “Phonics A-Z” by Wiley Blevins also has some low key ideas.  In the book it is like “if this isn’t enough to help I recommend Lips.”  

 

[Lecka]

Just for something else — I don’t know if it has been mentioned but Barton has a screening and she recommends Lips or FIS if one of the sections is not passed.  

You could google the “Barton student screening” if you wanted to see.  

The first level of Barton is also phonemic awareness.  

I don’t know how true this is —

but I have heard wording where “phonological” meant telling apart letter sounds, and “phonemic” means blending and segmenting plus a list of other skills.  

 

[Runningmom80]

27 minutes ago, Mainer said:

LiPS teaches phonemic awareness, the awareness of the sounds within words. It helps with similar sounding sounds (b/p, t/d, f,v, etc) and vowels, among other things. The teacher manual for LiPS is excellent.

Seeing Stars teaches kids to visualize the letters in their minds, and to make changes - for example, "visualize" the word "cat," then change the t to a p, and what letters do you "see?" C-A-P, cap. You also ask questions like, "What's the third letter you see? The middle letter? Now say them backwards. Now, forwards again." You're teaching kids to hold the visual representation of the letters in their minds, like on an invisible whiteboard.

 

I'm more of a LiPS fan, but I like both. 

 Thank you! I thinks LIPS is probably the one we’d want then.

[Runningmom80]

11 minutes ago, Lecka said:

Just for something else — I don’t know if it has been mentioned but Barton has a screening and she recommends Lips or FIS if one of the sections is not passed.  

You could google the “Barton student screening” if you wanted to see.  

The first level of Barton is also phonemic awareness.  

I don’t know how true this is —

but I have heard wording where “phonological” meant telling apart letter sounds, and “phonemic” means blending and segmenting plus a list of other skills.  

 

 

Yes, we did the screening. Dd passed A & B perfectly, then test C I used the video with Susan B pronouncing the sounds and she failed by one. Even I had a hard time telling the difference on one of the ones she missed. When I repeated the ones she missed, she got them right so maybe I don’t need to do the sounds? Then again, I’d hate to skip a step if she needs it. 

[Runningmom80]

18 minutes ago, Lecka said:

https://blog.allaboutlearningpress.com/short-i-short-e-confusion/

This is an example of something more low key.  If it is enough to help that is great, if not — more is needed.  

If it is available from your library, the book “Phonics A-Z” by Wiley Blevins also has some low key ideas.  In the book it is like “if this isn’t enough to help I recommend Lips.”  

 

 

There was part of me wondering if we could just re study the AAS phonograms but then I felt like maybe it wasn’t enough.

[Lecka]

If you are thinking about Barton, honestly I would email her before buying anything.  

I don’t even know if you need to do Lips or FIS.  I would see what she says about that.

If you don’t need to do something — you really don’t need to do it.  

If you have concerns and want to ask beyond doing the student screening — I think it is a good thing to do.  

A lot of kids do not need Lips or FIS and that is okay, too.