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We got our results and diagnosis - would love curriculum recs


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1 minute ago, Lecka said:

I also just mention this — I would ask this — is it possible there is a gray area where your daughter wouldn’t qualify for OT but would qualify for accommodations at school?

It could go either way, but a lot of times — not qualifying for an IEP doesn’t mean “sorry, nothing for you,” it can mean that there are accommodations and teachers are willing to change some teaching methods, but there is no OT. 

It’s hard to know but it’s possible.

Also — it sounds like you have not been aware of her handwriting impacting her.  I think if you have known something was wrong and not realized it was handwriting ———- well handwriting is involved in a lot of things, and greater cognitive load with (possibly) non-automatic or fatiguing handwriting, is going to impact everything she does, in some way, whether it is leading to earlier fatigue, more frustration, etc — you just have to investigate and see.  

 

Yes, that's the other 'weird' part. Her handwriting isn't terrible, she does "float" above the lines." I asked specifically about OT for the dysgraphia and the SLP says no it's not fine motor, its the orthography. She called her "surface dyslexic." She said explicitly that she needs Orton Gillingham instruction for the spelling. 

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Sadly the writing demands of school only increase.  It’s too bad.  

My son in 8th grade is functioning well right now because he can type so much (both because he can type decently and it is built-in at his school) but in elementary school it got really hard as he got into 4th and 5th grade.  He did qualify for OT here and there and he qualified for help in the resource room.  The resource room was great but — my son would do well learning in the classroom and had good oral participation, and there was concern about him missing that.  It ended up kind-of turning out that more things would be like “the class discussion” that he did great with might be first, and then onto “seatwork” where he might be in dire straits and need to go to the resource room.   

It did work out really well for him, but if he didn’t really need to go to the resource room but could get by without going, I think it would have been better.  But he couldn’t get by, and also developed anxiety wrt seatwork.  

It’s just kind-of a cruddy situation.  

OP — definitely check stuff out about gifted and dysgraphia, anxiety is sadly common and sadly right at your daughter’s age writing demands do increase.  

But there are so many ways to have accommodations, and I think typing is ideal when it is possible.  

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2 minutes ago, Runningmom80 said:

I just thought it was weird that her working memory tested higher than her verbal score, and that her verbal score doesn't match the peabody or expressive language test at all, and I've read dyslexics often have lower working memory scores. (I think I read that....)

I'm not sure I'd read it that way, even though they're all language. I'm not an expert, so who am I to say? The CELF is fast food testing, so personally I don't take that as ANY indication of her expressive language, snort. You realize it's half multiple choice?? I kid you not. So yeah if you're happy with multiple choice expressive language, there you go, she passes. 

The scores will interrelate, with issues with language eventually pulling down that verbal IQ score, sure. But I don't think there are studies saying they have to be similar. You can google it. Like if somebody thinks there is a relationship between them, you'll typically find studies exploring that. Like if I want to know how CELF scores for pragmatics correlate or predict CASL scores on pragmatics or SLDT scores on pragmatics, I can google that. So if you want to know if scores SHOULD correlate or be predictive, google and see of those tests. But I would not ASSUME they should simply because they all involve language. 

It's always solid to compare scores WITHIN a test. Like if you want to talk discrepancies in the range of scores within the WISC, sure. But once you start comparing across tests, I'd want data to know that's a valid way to compare them.

ADHD, all kinds of things drive down working memory. Your AAS was building working memory. You may have habits in your home that build working memory. It's just like how 2 kinds of RAN/RAS were testing nicely and one wasn't. There's the idea of splinter skills, where one thing got hit and another missed. That's why they do all three kinds of RAN/RAS, not just one, lol. So that was interesting to me, because it told me you had some things happening that bumped some scores and not others. It was interesting. But by testing enough, they found the pockets of weakness.

So with working memory, maybe you worked it one way and not another. Maybe there was some difference in the test administration. Could be anything.

7 minutes ago, Runningmom80 said:

 

It's definitely impacting her spelling, but in 3rd grade they let a lot pass as "grade level."

Yeah I don't think anyone on the IEP team makes hay over my ds' spelling. I think the assumption is tech and it no longer matters.

9 minutes ago, Runningmom80 said:

Ok, her VMI was low, 93 / 32nd percentile. It sounds like what you are saying is that this is not reliant on the reflexes? (Just for my own understanding)

So there you go. You're looking for someone who will work on that VMI to improve her ability to write. Could be an OT or a VT doc or a VT with an OT, whatever. But that's where it's at, at least for my ds. 

There is a sequence to how reflexes integrate neurologically. Primitive/neonatal/infant reflexes help the dc through the birthing process, in learning to nurse/suckle, learning to crawl and eventually walk, etc. If those are NOT INTEGRATED by being used and the body saying thanks, did that, put them away, don't need them now, then it glitches all the following reflexes in a cascade. There are vestibular reflexes, visual reflexes, etc. So you can have any number of symptoms, ranging from mouthing and sensory to difficulties with reading, behavior, wetting, etc., and they go back to these reflexes. But you have to go IN ORDER. It's not like you can ignore some and just have a good result. That's why I was sorta castigating your VT doc and calling him an idiot. In his defense, he's probably a used car salesman of therapy like every other practitioner out there. I swear I don't know what they teach them in school. They graduate OTs now with PhDs who know SQUAT to actually help kids. It's unbelievable. The fields are so wide and our issues are so specific. General practitioners who sorta know a lot are then left to try to train FURTHER once they graduate and get in the field. It's INSANE and it's why we on the boards here all struggle to find practitioners worth the money.

Think about it, I said find an SLP who specializes in literacy to get the testing you need. But did that person get that training while in their extensive grad school?? No!! They trained that person for so many tom dick and harry things that by the time we burrow down to one problem, they don't know what to do. So then you're looking for someone who specialized AFTER all that training and you have to know what the problem is before you can even find that person!! It's insane. We don't do this with MDs. We acknowledge the breadth of the field.

Whatever, I just have opinions on that. It's also why it's possible for you to develop professional level knowledge *in the targeted area you need* because you doing the same thing, asking how do I deal with this. You only have to work with your one, not the whole world.

15 minutes ago, Runningmom80 said:

That's a good point, it doesn't hurt to look. 

Tell us how it goes if you go! I enjoy touring schools. I sorta have this thing where I threaten ds if he doesn't work with me, lol.

16 minutes ago, Runningmom80 said:

Yes, exactly. I'm a little like "well what am I asking for then?" and the SLP says tutoring for "spelling with written expression" I guess under the umbrella of her dysgraphia. She said she has a weakness in the orthography and needs OG tutoring. I think I've just lost track of everything because the dyslexia thing is such a gray area for her.

So bring me up to speed here. You have an SLP who does literacy who wants to work with her? Or you're just saying you don't know what to ask the SLP for? You want narrative language testing. Here's something to get you started. https://www.smartspeechtherapy.com/components-of-comprehensive-dyslexia-testing-part-i-introduction-and-language-testing/

17 minutes ago, Runningmom80 said:

 

It's definitely impacting her spelling, but in 3rd grade they let a lot pass as "grade level."

So the school won't care about spelling because tech. However I think you're not yet grasping the extent of what is going on with her writing that is getting this dysgraphia label. You've got narrative language issues, organization, how she thinks through main ideas and supporting points, all kinds of stuff. Story is always up on the types of dysgraphia and all that. I'm just saying it's probably going to be more of an issue than you think. I think it would be interesting to see what came out with more detailed language testing. You probably also have some sense of where writing breaks down for her and what tasks are hard and what are smooth.

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15 minutes ago, Runningmom80 said:

 

Yes, that's the other 'weird' part. Her handwriting isn't terrible, she does "float" above the lines." I asked specifically about OT for the dysgraphia and the SLP says no it's not fine motor, its the orthography. She called her "surface dyslexic." She said explicitly that she needs Orton Gillingham instruction for the spelling. 

You asked an SLP if you should get OT? I need a face palm, whack myself thingie here. What does it matter what her opinion is??? She's an SLP and OT is not her field. She can administer a screener and refer. The fastest way to miss stuff is to put stock in the dismissive opinions of people who are speaking out of their area of expertise.

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I had cross-posted ———— but I am curious then, if her handwriting is fine, then what was the deal with her math?  Is that maybe handwriting related or maybe not?

Also — be aware there is a big gulf between “qualifying for OT through school” and “not needing OT.”  I think it would take an OT evaluation to know that.  

So is the primary concern the evaluator had, with her spelling?  

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9 minutes ago, Lecka said:

Sadly the writing demands of school only increase.

Exactly. They're going to increase on every level too, not just quantity but with the need for executive function and organization and ability to make a point with supporting details, etc. etc. The dysgraphia goes BEYOND the OT issues, or else they'd just label it as OT. It's an SLD.

Some people are one trick ponies with their dyslexia intervention. OG is great, but it's not the ONLY THING the dc needs. While I'm trying to find you some documentation on that, I found this helpful post https://www.smartspeechtherapy.com/show-me-the-data-or-why-i-hate-the-phrase-its-not-so-bad/  

Anyways, reading requires the convergence of MANY skills, not only decoding. So if this SLP is offering OG, sure, take her as far as she can go. However you also need to be getting testing for the rest of the language skills to make sure you're addressing EVERYTHING.

https://www.smartspeechtherapy.com/revised-narrative-assessments-in-speech-language-pathology/  something to get you started on narrative language

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2 minutes ago, Lecka said:

Be aware with dysgraphia — a lot of the time it is brain-based and not because of a physical or hand issue.  That is common for dysgraphia.  

OT can still be worth checking on even when it’s known to be brain-based.  

OT is the appropriate intervention for the VMI. VMI=vision to hand through the brain

For the VMI, they don't have to work on writing. The kid can be doing grid drawing, copying images, all kinds of other stuff. The Lane/VT stuff on RFWP has some stuff. I don't know, we're sort of in the middle of that, so I see what the OT is doing. It's just super slow. I wanted homework, something more systematic, so I pursued the RFWP stuff. We'll see. Not to the other side of that yet, lol. 

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8 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

You asked an SLP if you should get OT? I need a face palm, whack myself thingie here. What does it matter what her opinion is??? She's an SLP and OT is not her field. She can administer a screener and refer. The fastest way to miss stuff is to put stock in the dismissive opinions of people who are speaking out of their area of expertise.

 

She's the one who diagnosed the dysgraphia? I'm not sure why this is face palm worthy....I get what you are saying but is it really so wrong to ask the person diagnosing what the proper course of action is?

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3 minutes ago, Lecka said:

Be aware with dysgraphia — a lot of the time it is brain-based and not because of a physical or hand issue.  That is common for dysgraphia.  

OT can still be worth checking on even when it’s known to be brain-based.  

 

Yes, the SLP was explaining it's brain based, not fine motor. 

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11 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

I'm not sure I'd read it that way, even though they're all language. I'm not an expert, so who am I to say? The CELF is fast food testing, so personally I don't take that as ANY indication of her expressive language, snort. You realize it's half multiple choice?? I kid you not. So yeah if you're happy with multiple choice expressive language, there you go, she passes. 

The scores will interrelate, with issues with language eventually pulling down that verbal IQ score, sure. But I don't think there are studies saying they have to be similar. You can google it. Like if somebody thinks there is a relationship between them, you'll typically find studies exploring that. Like if I want to know how CELF scores for pragmatics correlate or predict CASL scores on pragmatics or SLDT scores on pragmatics, I can google that. So if you want to know if scores SHOULD correlate or be predictive, google and see of those tests. But I would not ASSUME they should simply because they all involve language. 

It's always solid to compare scores WITHIN a test. Like if you want to talk discrepancies in the range of scores within the WISC, sure. But once you start comparing across tests, I'd want data to know that's a valid way to compare them.

ADHD, all kinds of things drive down working memory. Your AAS was building working memory. You may have habits in your home that build working memory. It's just like how 2 kinds of RAN/RAS were testing nicely and one wasn't. There's the idea of splinter skills, where one thing got hit and another missed. That's why they do all three kinds of RAN/RAS, not just one, lol. So that was interesting to me, because it told me you had some things happening that bumped some scores and not others. It was interesting. But by testing enough, they found the pockets of weakness.

So with working memory, maybe you worked it one way and not another. Maybe there was some difference in the test administration. Could be anything.

Yeah I don't think anyone on the IEP team makes hay over my ds' spelling. I think the assumption is tech and it no longer matters.

So there you go. You're looking for someone who will work on that VMI to improve her ability to write. Could be an OT or a VT doc or a VT with an OT, whatever. But that's where it's at, at least for my ds. 

There is a sequence to how reflexes integrate neurologically. Primitive/neonatal/infant reflexes help the dc through the birthing process, in learning to nurse/suckle, learning to crawl and eventually walk, etc. If those are NOT INTEGRATED by being used and the body saying thanks, did that, put them away, don't need them now, then it glitches all the following reflexes in a cascade. There are vestibular reflexes, visual reflexes, etc. So you can have any number of symptoms, ranging from mouthing and sensory to difficulties with reading, behavior, wetting, etc., and they go back to these reflexes. But you have to go IN ORDER. It's not like you can ignore some and just have a good result. That's why I was sorta castigating your VT doc and calling him an idiot. In his defense, he's probably a used car salesman of therapy like every other practitioner out there. I swear I don't know what they teach them in school. They graduate OTs now with PhDs who know SQUAT to actually help kids. It's unbelievable. The fields are so wide and our issues are so specific. General practitioners who sorta know a lot are then left to try to train FURTHER once they graduate and get in the field. It's INSANE and it's why we on the boards here all struggle to find practitioners worth the money.

Think about it, I said find an SLP who specializes in literacy to get the testing you need. But did that person get that training while in their extensive grad school?? No!! They trained that person for so many tom dick and harry things that by the time we burrow down to one problem, they don't know what to do. So then you're looking for someone who specialized AFTER all that training and you have to know what the problem is before you can even find that person!! It's insane. We don't do this with MDs. We acknowledge the breadth of the field.

Whatever, I just have opinions on that. It's also why it's possible for you to develop professional level knowledge *in the targeted area you need* because you doing the same thing, asking how do I deal with this. You only have to work with your one, not the whole world.

Tell us how it goes if you go! I enjoy touring schools. I sorta have this thing where I threaten ds if he doesn't work with me, lol.

So bring me up to speed here. You have an SLP who does literacy who wants to work with her? Or you're just saying you don't know what to ask the SLP for? You want narrative language testing. Here's something to get you started. https://www.smartspeechtherapy.com/components-of-comprehensive-dyslexia-testing-part-i-introduction-and-language-testing/

So the school won't care about spelling because tech. However I think you're not yet grasping the extent of what is going on with her writing that is getting this dysgraphia label. You've got narrative language issues, organization, how she thinks through main ideas and supporting points, all kinds of stuff. Story is always up on the types of dysgraphia and all that. I'm just saying it's probably going to be more of an issue than you think. I think it would be interesting to see what came out with more detailed language testing. You probably also have some sense of where writing breaks down for her and what tasks are hard and what are smooth.

 

No, the SLP doesn't do tutoring. I guess I do know what to ask for, it's tutoring with Orton Gillingham. I had forgotten she said that when I was posting earlier. My brain is a bit jumbled at the moment!

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2 minutes ago, Runningmom80 said:

 

She's the one who diagnosed the dysgraphia? I'm not sure why this is face palm worthy....I get what you are saying but is it really so wrong to ask the person diagnosing what the proper course of action is?

Well did she refer you off for VT? How much of this testing did she do? I'm missing a lot here. You saw a psych and an SLP? But the SLP didn't push through anything more than the CELF? Or the SLP is coming in afterward?

SLPs diagnosing SLDs is kind of a funky grey zone. Technically there's a lot they can do. 

I'm saying if you get a blow-off on referrals, that's an easy way to miss stuff. And we've missed some biggees that way. These fields are very pigeon-holed, and I've just gotten burnt a lot. 

If she has VMI issues and trouble writing, she needs an OT referral. She gets OT *and* OG. 

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4 minutes ago, Runningmom80 said:

 

Yes, the SLP was explaining it's brain based, not fine motor. 

If she's saying the writing issue is occurring only because of the phonological processing issues, that's very pigeon-holed. That low VMI was not because of phonological processing. She should have a referral for OT.

Yes, it's in the brain, but it can be more complex than just ONE factor, one thing. 

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8 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Exactly. They're going to increase on every level too, not just quantity but with the need for executive function and organization and ability to make a point with supporting details, etc. etc. The dysgraphia goes BEYOND the OT issues, or else they'd just label it as OT. It's an SLD.

Some people are one trick ponies with their dyslexia intervention. OG is great, but it's not the ONLY THING the dc needs. While I'm trying to find you some documentation on that, I found this helpful post https://www.smartspeechtherapy.com/show-me-the-data-or-why-i-hate-the-phrase-its-not-so-bad/  

Anyways, reading requires the convergence of MANY skills, not only decoding. So if this SLP is offering OG, sure, take her as far as she can go. However you also need to be getting testing for the rest of the language skills to make sure you're addressing EVERYTHING.

https://www.smartspeechtherapy.com/revised-narrative-assessments-in-speech-language-pathology/  something to get you started on narrative language

 

Ok, this makes sense, thank you! I guess I wanted a one stop shop. lol

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3 minutes ago, Runningmom80 said:

No, the SLP doesn't do tutoring. I guess I do know what to ask for, it's tutoring with Orton Gillingham. I had forgotten she said that when I was posting earlier. My brain is a bit jumbled at the moment!

Ok, so that explains it. Good. So it will take some work. I think the referral list at Learning Ally has poofed. Now I'm cool with reading tutors, people who are OG/Wilson/Barton trained, just as a genre. I'm not even saying an SLP doing literacy is the BEST. For real. But for *testing* in language to sort things out, yes you would like an SLP who specializes in literacy. Then when you know all the areas of language affected, you can make a game plan that addresses ALL of them. 

What you don't want is to do OG and then facepalm and realize the other three areas that didn't get addressed. It can happen and it will slow her down. It's not necessary to miss them. You get the testing and then you have the data to make that game plan. 

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1 minute ago, PeterPan said:

Well did she refer you off for VT? How much of this testing did she do? I'm missing a lot here. You saw a psych and an SLP? But the SLP didn't push through anything more than the CELF? Or the SLP is coming in afterward?

SLPs diagnosing SLDs is kind of a funky grey zone. Technically there's a lot they can do. 

I'm saying if you get a blow-off on referrals, that's an easy way to miss stuff. And we've missed some biggees that way. These fields are very pigeon-holed, and I've just gotten burnt a lot. 

If she has VMI issues and trouble writing, she needs an OT referral. She gets OT *and* OG. 

 

It's all confusing. The psych did the WISC. The SLP did VMI, VP, Motor coordination, PPVT-5, EVT-3, CELF-5, CTOPP -2, TOWRE-2, TOSWRF-2, TOSCRF-2, TOWS-3. TOWL-3, and WJ-IV

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2 minutes ago, Runningmom80 said:

 

Ok, this makes sense, thank you! I guess I wanted a one stop shop. lol

Don't we all, lol. I mean, dude, how do you think I know all this stuff?? I'm the QUEEN of mistakes, lol. Like you name the mistake, I've made it. I'm still making 'em. Seriously. I'm so good at making mistakes I'm a classic. I could fill textbooks and pages with them, lol. Oh I do, here on the boards. :biggrin:

Yeah, so you take a deep breath and you sort it out. You'll get there. We're flooding you with info. But I think, and this is just my two cents, that a whole you have is *detailed* language testing. I gave you the link explaining what some of that detailed testing could be. Could be nothing turns up with more detailed testing or you could be like wow thank you. But that detailed testing is a way to be thorough, to make sure you're addressing everything.

The more gifted the dc, the more they're trying to do, meaning the more glaringly obvious the holes will become. 

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3 hours ago, Runningmom80 said:

 

Thank you. I think the mildness of it is what I’m struggling with. I wonder if it’s possible that it’s less mild than what the numbers pulled out. I always thought if 2e “canceling each other out” when it comes to academics. I don’t think I understood it can also happen in the actual testing.

 Or perhaps I’m neurotic and making a big deal out of something small.  ( or both? Lol) 

She definitely advocates for herself, almost too much sometimes. 😂 

Yeah, I do think saying "mild" or whatever is not necessarily helpful, since you still have to do all of the steps to remediate. You won't really know until you get in there and start doing stuff. BUT, I'm just saying it's probably a positive sign that, although some scores were *lower*, they weren't in the well below average range. A lot of my students are in that well below average range, and it's a whole different kettle of fish to remediate for those kids vs. kids that have less severe issues.

I'm not downplaying "mild" AT ALL. I think way more kids need this remediating that testing "shows." (Don't get me started! It's a whole different topic. LOL 😀)

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5 minutes ago, Runningmom80 said:

 

It's all confusing. The psych did the WISC. The SLP did VMI, VP, Motor coordination, PPVT-5, EVT-3, CELF-5, CTOPP -2, TOWRE-2, TOSWRF-2, TOSCRF-2, TOWS-3. TOWL-3, and WJ-IV

Interesting. So different person, different office, maybe different background noise or day. Yes, she did the testing that cranks out scores for written expression.

Just your tip of the day, but over time you're going to reread your reports and look at those subtests and tease out useful things with those tests of written expression. She gave you a lot there. I still despise the CELF and I'm not sure on all those whether there was something for narrative language. Dig in on that.

Now I'm curious to look up those tests and see what they hit. 

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For AAS — it is a good, solid program.  It teaches explicit blending and segmenting.  These are very, very good things.  Do you know, from going through this program, that your daughter is able to blend to read words, and segment words into sounds to spell them?  Did she seem like she did these things?  

Or did she seem like she memorized words, but was always shaky on blending and segmenting? Did she make mistakes with them?  Does she still ever make mistakes?

Something people check on is being able to segment and blend nonsense (made-up) words.  This can show if some words are known from being memorized instead of being able to sound out and segment words very well.  It’s worth checking on.  But it’s also common for dyslexia to still have lower scores for this stuff even when things are really remediated.  

I think if it’s possible, ask specifically if there are specifics of an OG method you want to use.  

I think AAS is a good curriculum.  But it does ask you to do your own review and it also does move quickly and not provide much practice ——- these are things someone can add in.  There are also times it can be nice to just be using something that has it all right there and then you don’t feel like you are stuck on the same 3 pages forever.  

Then saying OG is needed can also mean — make sure it is explicit with lots of things.  I think AAS is explicit, but that it is possible to use it and not realize that certain things are maybe not being mastered or maybe certain things not enough time is being spent, because it is very “move on when you are ready,” and it does not have things to try to minimize memorizing (which — this mainly means to include nonsense words, as far as I can tell).  

Then another thing that “do OG” can mean is to incorporate lots and lots of multisensory.  There is a lot more possible with multisensory than just using tiles.  There are a lot of options, there is a lot that can be added in.  For the most part — you can try a lot of different multisensory methods and then see if any work or are enjoyed, and add them to anything. 

Also sometimes the same thing might need to be practiced with different multisensory methods to stick. 

Just some thoughts.  

I personally am someone who doesn’t buy into “my child’s overall IQ is this, so that means spelling is a failure unless it reaches that same number.”  That is saying it in an extreme way but I think that is a mindset sometimes.  

I think it is better to accept spelling as weaker and want to address it appropriately, and then celebrate progress and be understanding of it being a weaker area.

But then what it DOES mean when there is a gap, it can mean she may be more frustrated or aware she doesn’t like how her written work represents her.  It might make her more frustrated with reading what she wants to read based on her IQ leading her to want to read more advanced books.

Those are very really things.

But — a lot of times eventually spelling catches up enough, even if it is still weaker and progress was slower, but it often can catch up to where the gap is less frustrating just because — at a certain point that level can be reached.  It can just take a long time and be very frustrating, and the weaker area may still be a weaker area.  

The thing about spelling too is it is a good review for reading and you can be looking for any signs with her reading, as far as things like reading proper names or anything, where you might see if she is weak in sounding out.

I would think maybe that is ruled out from the testing.  But it may not be ruled out.  She might know a lot of words and that might have inflated her score on a test meant to catch weaknesses in sounding out (at a level where you would want to remediate).  

But keep in mind, for kids with strong comprehension, they can use their strong comprehension to read better than they “should” be able to read based on how well they are sounding out.  But it gets very hard over time.

I don’t know if she might have been able to “game” the test or not, hopefully not, but it is something that kids may do who have very good comprehension.  

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Dysgraphia is tricky. My son definitely has it. Look up the "Arrowsmith school" They have a tracing and writing shapes program that does really help. My son has done years and years of Getty and Dubay and handwriting work along with some "Arrowsmith " stuff I have invented on my own. I had him trace and reproduce shapes for about 30 sessions. Over time as he has matured and we have done other treatments his handwriting has improved and I can now read his math and his writing. 

Ipad has an app and a pencil that work very well ( Myscript and I think it is notes plus or one note) if you write on the ipad and even come close to getting the letters write it converts it into text. I also like typing.com for typing practice. 

I have tried a lot of other treatments but there is only one I have had a lot of success with. I recommend Fast Forword through a private coach ( because its cheaper and you get the program for a full year) I think it benefits any child who has weak auditory memory and auditory listening and even developing that inner voice for reading. My son could never remember the lyrics to songs and couldn't do Choir now after FF he reads at a high level and sings all the time. He also attends to me when I am speaking and remembers what I say ( not always but atleast a 70% improvement)

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PPVT-5 is vocabulary--Good. Now the gig is they make this ASSUMPTION that if the vocabulary is strong then the syntax is fine, which is not necessarily the case. But at least it gives you vocabulary scores, sure, very important.

EVT-3--another vocabulary, this time expressive, also catching word retrieval. That's really useful.

CELF-5--fast food screener for so many things, has sensitivity issues, uses multiple choices, known to miss issues in gifted kids

CTOPP-2--that's your phonolgoical processing, ran/ras, etc

TOWRE-2--looks like it's reading, fluency, nice

TOSWRF-2--more fluency

TOSCRF-2--more fluency

TOWS-3--was this a typo? I'm not finidng anything

TOWL-3--this is your writing test, looks at a lot of things in the samples. Seems to be common to SLPs, older edition.

I don't think the TOWL is a substitute for narrative language testing or gives you the same data.

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21 minutes ago, Runningmom80 said:

I guess I do know what to ask for, it's tutoring with Orton Gillingham.

So there are multiple systems, but if you say OG they'll know what you mean. They'll say I don't do OG but I do Wilson or Barton or whatever, and it's all fine. Now for your trivia there is a newer program, SPELL-Links, that has a pretty significant following. It's *not* OG but it's taking that concept and building in a totally different way. And if you're like wow I want something different that is still evidence-based, that would be it. It's strong for being very analytical, which will appeal to a really bright student.

Just for your trivia, I think SPELL-links is doing some online tutorial intensive classes this summer. Might be timely. Not sure where the link is for the summer stuff, but here's a start https://learningbydesign.com/online-clinical-services/

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https://mindwingconcepts.com  Here's something to get you started on narrative language and seeing why we keep harping on this. :biggrin:

Narrative, paired with syntax, flows nicely into expository writing. So look at the Story Grammar Marker (which was developed by the SLP while working in a dyslexia school), but also look at Core of the Core, Thememaker, and the expository stuff. 

If your dd is having issues with narrative language, then tools like this are what you're looking for.

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7 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

PPVT-5 is vocabulary--Good. Now the gig is they make this ASSUMPTION that if the vocabulary is strong then the syntax is fine, which is not necessarily the case. But at least it gives you vocabulary scores, sure, very important.

EVT-3--another vocabulary, this time expressive, also catching word retrieval. That's really useful.

CELF-5--fast food screener for so many things, has sensitivity issues, uses multiple choices, known to miss issues in gifted kids

CTOPP-2--that's your phonolgoical processing, ran/ras, etc

TOWRE-2--looks like it's reading, fluency, nice

TOSWRF-2--more fluency

TOSCRF-2--more fluency

TOWS-3--was this a typo? I'm not finidng anything

TOWL-3--this is your writing test, looks at a lot of things in the samples. Seems to be common to SLPs, older edition.

I don't think the TOWL is a substitute for narrative language testing or gives you the same data.

 

Test of Written Spelling. I have no idea how this is different from test of written language.

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It might be that this is a dead-end because the slp really does mean — it is a spelling issue, it is related to dyslexia.  

I’m not sure.  

On one hand, you don’t sound like you have noticed it.  On the other hand, kids can hide or avoid things, and it can also seem like it’s something else.  

I don’t think it’s easy to know.

You can ask her teacher if she has noticed anything.  You can see about an OT eval.  You can keep your eye on it.  You can follow up with a question to the evaluator, too.

Dysgraphia can mean different things and I have assumed it would include handwriting bc of the math comment.  But that could be for another reason.  

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11 minutes ago, Lecka said:

For AAS — it is a good, solid program.  It teaches explicit blending and segmenting.  These are very, very good things.  Do you know, from going through this program, that your daughter is able to blend to read words, and segment words into sounds to spell them?  Did she seem like she did these things?  

Or did she seem like she memorized words, but was always shaky on blending and segmenting? Did she make mistakes with them?  Does she still ever make mistakes?

Something people check on is being able to segment and blend nonsense (made-up) words.  This can show if some words are known from being memorized instead of being able to sound out and segment words very well.  It’s worth checking on.  But it’s also common for dyslexia to still have lower scores for this stuff even when things are really remediated.  

Yes, her made up word reading is lower. Sounding out long names or words she doesn't know does sometimes trip her up.

I think if it’s possible, ask specifically if there are specifics of an OG method you want to use.  

I think AAS is a good curriculum.  But it does ask you to do your own review and it also does move quickly and not provide much practice ——- these are things someone can add in.  There are also times it can be nice to just be using something that has it all right there and then you don’t feel like you are stuck on the same 3 pages forever.  

Then saying OG is needed can also mean — make sure it is explicit with lots of things.  I think AAS is explicit, but that it is possible to use it and not realize that certain things are maybe not being mastered or maybe certain things not enough time is being spent, because it is very “move on when you are ready,” and it does not have things to try to minimize memorizing (which — this mainly means to include nonsense words, as far as I can tell).  

Then another thing that “do OG” can mean is to incorporate lots and lots of multisensory.  There is a lot more possible with multisensory than just using tiles.  There are a lot of options, there is a lot that can be added in.  For the most part — you can try a lot of different multisensory methods and then see if any work or are enjoyed, and add them to anything. 

Also sometimes the same thing might need to be practiced with different multisensory methods to stick. 

Just some thoughts.  

I personally am someone who doesn’t buy into “my child’s overall IQ is this, so that means spelling is a failure unless it reaches that same number.”  That is saying it in an extreme way but I think that is a mindset sometimes.  

I think it is better to accept spelling as weaker and want to address it appropriately, and then celebrate progress and be understanding of it being a weaker area.

But then what it DOES mean when there is a gap, it can mean she may be more frustrated or aware she doesn’t like how her written work represents her.  It might make her more frustrated with reading what she wants to read based on her IQ leading her to want to read more advanced books.

Those are very really things.

But — a lot of times eventually spelling catches up enough, even if it is still weaker and progress was slower, but it often can catch up to where the gap is less frustrating just because — at a certain point that level can be reached.  It can just take a long time and be very frustrating, and the weaker area may still be a weaker area.  

The thing about spelling too is it is a good review for reading and you can be looking for any signs with her reading, as far as things like reading proper names or anything, where you might see if she is weak in sounding out.

I would think maybe that is ruled out from the testing.  But it may not be ruled out.  She might know a lot of words and that might have inflated her score on a test meant to catch weaknesses in sounding out (at a level where you would want to remediate).  

But keep in mind, for kids with strong comprehension, they can use their strong comprehension to read better than they “should” be able to read based on how well they are sounding out.  But it gets very hard over time.

I don’t know if she might have been able to “game” the test or not, hopefully not, but it is something that kids may do who have very good comprehension.  

Yes, her comprehension is strong, and she has a very good memory, so it's probably affecting the overall picture.

 

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35 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

OT is the appropriate intervention for the VMI. VMI=vision to hand through the brain

For the VMI, they don't have to work on writing. The kid can be doing grid drawing, copying images, all kinds of other stuff. The Lane/VT stuff on RFWP has some stuff. I don't know, we're sort of in the middle of that, so I see what the OT is doing. It's just super slow. I wanted homework, something more systematic, so I pursued the RFWP stuff. We'll see. Not to the other side of that yet, lol. 

The most effective VMI work we did looked on the surface like gross motor...bouncing basketballs between left and right hands, etc. We saw some bump with Lane’s exercises (Marsden ball, touching the light that lit up on the light board, mirroring a patterns block picture, etc.), but more with full body work.

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4 minutes ago, Lecka said:

It might be that this is a dead-end because the slp really does mean — it is a spelling issue, it is related to dyslexia.  

I’m not sure.  

On one hand, you don’t sound like you have noticed it.  On the other hand, kids can hide or avoid things, and it can also seem like it’s something else.  

I don’t think it’s easy to know.

You can ask her teacher if she has noticed anything.  You can see about an OT eval.  You can keep your eye on it.  You can follow up with a question to the evaluator, too.

Dysgraphia can mean different things and I have assumed it would include handwriting bc of the math comment.  But that could be for another reason.  

 

THIS. This is the impression I got yesterday. I personally think it's BOTH dysgraphia and dyslexia but the dysgraphia was the only one she could prove. Maybe testing the narrative language would sniff it out, I'm going to have to look into it.

My main concern is getting her what she needs, it's not like I am jonesing for a label. I'm just trying to understand. 🙂

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7 minutes ago, Runningmom80 said:

 

Test of Written Spelling. I have no idea how this is different from test of written language.

Well even without googling, probably the written spelling test had her spell words, while I think the written language has them writing samples (presumably from prompts) that the evaluator looks at for a variety of criteria (punctuation, organization, etc.). So she was giving you really thorough testing on the dyslexia front, yes. Like it's really impressive honestly. When she's saying the CTOPP scores might not show it but it's THERE, she did enough testing to say that on a stack of Bibles, kwim?

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3 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

The most effective VMI work we did looked on the surface like gross motor...bouncing basketballs between left and right hands, etc. We saw some bump with Lane’s exercises (Marsden ball, touching the light that lit up on the light board, mirroring a patterns block picture, etc.), but more with full body work.

Interesting!! I got his gross motor book too, and the OT has him doing gross motor stuff also.

OT is the area where we're going to do what we can and try but I've sort of given up on perfection. Right now we have really modest goals, like being able to write by hand a really brief note (a birthday card, an application, a post-it note, something on a whiteboard). We assume everything else will be tech. 

On that cheery note, lol...

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1 minute ago, PeterPan said:

Well even without googling, probably the written spelling test had her spell words, while I think the written language has them writing samples (presumably from prompts) that the evaluator looks at for a variety of criteria (punctuation, organization, etc.). So she was giving you really thorough testing on the dyslexia front, yes. Like it's really impressive honestly. When she's saying the CTOPP scores might not show it but it's THERE, she did enough testing to say that on a stack of Bibles, kwim?

 

Yes. Also, I'm starting to realize that maybe I just can't put DD in a specific box. I LIKE NICE CLEAR CUT BOXES. 🤣

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4 minutes ago, Runningmom80 said:

I personally think it's BOTH dysgraphia and dyslexia but the dysgraphia was the only one she could prove. Maybe testing the narrative language would sniff it out, I'm going to have to look into it.

So narrative language is her ability to retell a narrative. It's a bunch of skills put together, and you haven't really had that testing. It's a pretty common issue in this population and it's separate from what you've had tested so far. The CELF *might* hit it a little, can't remember. 

So you're saying you think her difficulty with spelling is both from the dyslexia AND the dysgraphia? Well that's interesting. Definitely the dyslexia is impacting it. If she's already had VT, I would think her visual memory is on-track and fine. So the dysgraphia would affect her ability to get it out by hand but would be isolated if you did oral spelling or possibly spelling with tiles.

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I am in Camp “Dysgraphia is more than fine motor.” Ds *can* write in a beautiful, very slow cursive. He can also type. We did all of the vision therapy and motor work and while he is still dyspraxic, his VMI/Beery scores all top out at the highest measurable. He chooses to write in a broken all-caps chicken scratch. At some point she will choose what she wants to do for herself. Pick your battles.

If I could go back $10,000 and five years ago to 8, I would focus more on written output—caring less what it looks like or how it is spelled but more on just getting content out. Tech can solve a large variety of problems. 

If handwriting is not automatic and you can’t get it there in 6 months of concerted effort, get enough to be functional (filling out medical forms) and move on.

 

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2 minutes ago, Runningmom80 said:

 

Yes. Also, I'm starting to realize that maybe I just can't put DD in a specific box. I LIKE NICE CLEAR CUT BOXES. 🤣

Yeah, sigh. And this process of evaluations kind of takes a while. You rip up the child into tiny shreds till you're wondering where the child went! It's ugly. Keeping going when you already got some answers is ugly. 

What I can promise you is that finding ALL the issues will be worth it. I think if you find an SLP who does literacy who can do your narrative language testing, they'll catch what's remaining. Maybe some pragmatics or syntax, maybe not. But they would be your person. And you've got an OT eval to be done and some therapy there.

And then, as the dust settles, you're going to paste this back into a whole child and get some balance back. It will be ok. It's just really ugly for a while. 

I think the problem is not the box but not understanding what the box means. If you think dyslexia is ONLY DECODING, then it doesn't make sense. If you view it as a larger language disability, then it makes sense why all these interconnected issues are occurring. So it's more like expand your definition of dyslexia and it will make more sense. 

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1 minute ago, PeterPan said:

Yeah, sigh. And this process of evaluations kind of takes a while. You rip up the child into tiny shreds till you're wondering where the child went! It's ugly. Keeping going when you already got some answers is ugly. 

What I can promise you is that finding ALL the issues will be worth it. I think if you find an SLP who does literacy who can do your narrative language testing, they'll catch what's remaining. Maybe some pragmatics or syntax, maybe not. But they would be your person. And you've got an OT eval to be done and some therapy there.

And then, as the dust settles, you're going to paste this back into a whole child and get some balance back. It will be ok. It's just really ugly for a while. 

I think the problem is not the box but not understanding what the box means. If you think dyslexia is ONLY DECODING, then it doesn't make sense. If you view it as a larger language disability, then it makes sense why all these interconnected issues are occurring. So it's more like expand your definition of dyslexia and it will make more sense. 

 

See, I do think I get that, and that's why *I* think it's dyslexia. My confusion/hang up is the "it's dyslexia but I can't prove it" which when I word it like that makes sense. She didn't really say it that way, but that's what she was saying yesterday. She did explicitly say "You can think of her as gifted dyslexic, but it's not what the scores say."  Did I already say that a million times? I reminding myself. Honestly I don't care either way about the gifted aspect, but the dyslexia part does matter because I just want to make sure she gets what she needs. 

I have a question for you veterans, I naively thought that we would do this testing one time, she gets a diagnosis, and we go on our merry way. It sounds like, from some of your posts, that you test all of this stuff more than once? Is that the case?

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8 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

I am in Camp “Dysgraphia is more than fine motor.” Ds *can* write in a beautiful, very slow cursive. He can also type. We did all of the vision therapy and motor work and while he is still dyspraxic, his VMI/Beery scores all top out at the highest measurable. He chooses to write in a broken all-caps chicken scratch. At some point she will choose what she wants to do for herself. Pick your battles.

If I could go back $10,000 and five years ago to 8, I would focus more on written output—caring less what it looks like or how it is spelled but more on just getting content out. Tech can solve a large variety of problems. 

If handwriting is not automatic and you can’t get it there in 6 months of concerted effort, get enough to be functional (filling out medical forms) and move on.

 

 

I appreciate this! 

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2 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

his VMI/Beery scores all top out at the highest measurable. He chooses to write in a broken all-caps chicken scratch. At some point she will choose what she wants to do for herself.

Ok, I'm taking a deep breath here, because you're enlightening me. You're saying even if I get the VMI scores up it will still be hard? FOO, FOO, FOO. Did I mention foo?

Oh well, so we take a deep breath and move on. What's another bit of tech between friends. As you say, life goes on. So fine, we'll do what we can. And yes, ds is finally again choosing to write on his own. I force nothing, ask for nothing, because dragon/forced writing shut him down before. If HE picks up the paper and tries to write the T/F or circle or whatever, I'm like fine. HE sometimes chooses now to write small amounts of words to get his thoughts out. 

So I guess what we're doing with these 40 minute drives to OT is worth it. I so would like to stop, sigh. I get worn out on drives, really. Or I'm lazy. Or something. I have a very bad attitude sometimes.

5 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

I would focus more on written output—caring less what it looks like or how it is spelled but more on just getting content out.

Just to expand on that, I'm wondering if you mean what I'm calling narrative language. If he can't organize his thoughts and get them out somehow, then all the pencil skills don't matter. And that expressive language, narrative, expository, pulling all the syntax and meaning together, is the long battle. 

And you might be right that maybe I got caught up in some enthusiasm thinking we could fix the VMI and make that easier, and you're right that winning on LANGUAGE is where it's at, not the VMI. Sigh. 

So then in your hindsight, was there something that helped with the language side and the getting it out side? We're doing things. Sometimes I feel like I'm three chickens without heads, not just one. So many areas to address, how to prioritize, sigh.

8 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

If handwriting is not automatic and you can’t get it there in 6 months of concerted effort, get enough to be functional (filling out medical forms) and move on.

Yup, that's what our OT has done for us, refining those goals. It's what an OT can do for op and why she wants that referral.

So then back my situation (because I'm a board hog), what would you say on that drive thing? You're saying you drove, did the OT, and it still wasn't worth it? Our OT is flexible. We drive but we do 1 hour blocks. In that she only hits that gross motor and stuff for handwriting. She hasn't been hitting interoception at all. I have this perpetual battle between the value of having other people help and the distraction of going to those places and not doing what *I* will do best. It has always been a hard thing for me to balance, wanting help but finding it more efficient to do things myself. Sometimes people are BETTER than what I could do or give us momentum.

So when would you stop? What would you see that would say ok, we're there, pull the plug?

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4 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

So I guess what we're doing with these 40 minute drives to OT is worth it. I so would like to stop, sigh. I get worn out on drives, really. Or I'm lazy. Or something. I have a very bad attitude sometimes.

 

I don't mean to make light, but this made me LOL because I'm the same. All of it from the worn out to bad attitude. 🙂

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3 minutes ago, Runningmom80 said:

She did explicitly say "You can think of her as gifted dyslexic, but it's not what the scores say."

So who said to call it dyslexia? The psych? And who is saying her scores don't get her there? The SLP? And were they evaluating together as a team, shared office, co-written report? 

Psych trumps SLP. Professional disagreement. 

I've had psychs say my ds has ADHD-inattentive and another say no it's combined and another say no because it's ASD and another say yes plus ASD and another say they were all donkeys' butts because it's ASD2. Kinda of a range there, eh? 

The DSM looks at the surface, tries to find patterns, and let's the diagnosis change when the symptoms change. 

It is my considered opinion that that philosopher dude with the cave and the elephant was right. All these people know PARTS and grasp PARTS. 

 

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Just now, PeterPan said:

So who said to call it dyslexia? The psych? And who is saying her scores don't get her there? The SLP? And were they evaluating together as a team, shared office, co-written report? 

Psych trumps SLP. Professional disagreement. 

I've had psychs say my ds has ADHD-inattentive and another say no it's combined and another say no because it's ASD and another say yes plus ASD and another say they were all donkeys' butts because it's ASD2. Kinda of a range there, eh? 

The DSM looks at the surface, tries to find patterns, and let's the diagnosis change when the symptoms change. 

It is my considered opinion that that philosopher dude with the cave and the elephant was right. All these people know PARTS and grasp PARTS. 

 

 

The SLP is saying both! See why I'm confused? 

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Typing is amazing here.

My 8th grader just went out with friends yesterday and his bike-riding was not as good as his friends, when I picked him up his friend commented to me that it took them much longer than it should have and that my son was swerving more than he should (they rode on a wide shoulder along a road).  

This is the first time in a while there has been something like this, but it used to be all the time.

I don’t know what a next step is for us, if this is a problem because I don’t know if he will get invited again for bike riding, or not a big deal if he does other things instead with the same kids.

Probably our next step is see what he wants to do (if he wants to try to practice more) and be glad it isn’t a huge obstacle in his life.   

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Fwiw, the dyslexia school near us has the most positive view of disability and tech I've ever seen. They're so chilled. Kinda fits with Prairiemom's comments. It's hard because we both want to do what can be done and need to chill and take a deep breath and accept and use tech at the same time.

2 minutes ago, Runningmom80 said:

All of it from the worn out to bad attitude. 🙂

And it's hard because then I have to stop and evaluate whether my bad attitude is a sign that something needs to change or whether I need to suck it up. Sometimes I ask my professionals (behaviorist, etc.) who know the situation to help sort that out and sometimes I just say you know, listen to your gut, mental health trumps. And sometimes I make mistakes on that, sigh. 

11 minutes ago, Runningmom80 said:

I have a question for you veterans, I naively thought that we would do this testing one time, she gets a diagnosis, and we go on our merry way. It sounds like, from some of your posts, that you test all of this stuff more than once? Is that the case?

Hmm. It's sorta like that and sorta not. Probably just varies with the kid. Your kid is a little more interesting, so she takes a little more effort to sort out. Some presentations are more direct.

I would tend not to quibble over the label. If the psych used the label, the label sticks. What matters is the intervention, and it's pretty clear from those scores (and what I assume you're seeing that drove you to evals) that your dd cannot perform at the level she needs to do to what she's trying to do. So REALITY has to trump your SLP's spelling tests and fluency tests, kwim? The psych was taking into consideration the larger situation, including probably the level of intervention you had already done.

I paid $$$ per level and did Barton with my ds, even though he blew through how many levels in a year, because I wanted to get that off the table as the issue. I don't see a reason NOT to do proper intervention. She'll probably progress nicely and then you'll see what's left. It's only good.

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1 minute ago, Lecka said:

Typing is amazing here.

So now a total curiosity point. Has op tried typing to see what happens? I've got two kids now who've struggled to learn. It's a stinkin low point when you realize the writing is chicken scratch AND the typing isn't going well. Now we have dictation for all, haha, but my ds I'm not sure would be quite intelligible to dictation software. We'll see. I want to get him more speech therapy when our SLP, who is under a non-compete, is available again, sigh. Until then I have zero, nothing. I could drive close to 3 hours for someone unqualified. It's still an issue, yes. Sigh. Foo. At least I don't have a bad attitude about that. I'm pro driving for speech therapy, because it kinda unlocks the world. But apparently I have a bad attitude about driving for OT, lol. 

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Just now, PeterPan said:

Fwiw, the dyslexia school near us has the most positive view of disability and tech I've ever seen. They're so chilled. Kinda fits with Prairiemom's comments. It's hard because we both want to do what can be done and need to chill and take a deep breath and accept and use tech at the same time.

And it's hard because then I have to stop and evaluate whether my bad attitude is a sign that something needs to change or whether I need to suck it up. Sometimes I ask my professionals (behaviorist, etc.) who know the situation to help sort that out and sometimes I just say you know, listen to your gut, mental health trumps. And sometimes I make mistakes on that, sigh. 

Hmm. It's sorta like that and sorta not. Probably just varies with the kid. Your kid is a little more interesting, so she takes a little more effort to sort out. Some presentations are more direct.

I would tend not to quibble over the label. If the psych used the label, the label sticks. What matters is the intervention, and it's pretty clear from those scores (and what I assume you're seeing that drove you to evals) that your dd cannot perform at the level she needs to do to what she's trying to do. So REALITY has to trump your SLP's spelling tests and fluency tests, kwim? The psych was taking into consideration the larger situation, including probably the level of intervention you had already done.

I paid $$$ per level and did Barton with my ds, even though he blew through how many levels in a year, because I wanted to get that off the table as the issue. I don't see a reason NOT to do proper intervention. She'll probably progress nicely and then you'll see what's left. It's only good.

 

The psych only did the IQ test, everything else, including the diagnosing was done by the SLP. I guess I'm being a baby about it not being "official" and on the report, and I probably need to just get over it and move on. 

I was looking at Barton, I think she would go through it quickly too. 

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4 minutes ago, Lecka said:

My 8th grader just went out with friends yesterday and his bike-riding was not as good as his friends,

Oh dear! Can he practice in a safer place? We have converted rails to trails paths that aren't near roads. That's where we take ds, so he's only in a field or bit of brush if something happens, not in a road. And yeah, he improves with practice. Helmets, definitely.

I ride a recumbent. I used to ride a regular bike as a kid, but now I just end the wobble thing for good and use my recumbent. :biggrin:

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2 minutes ago, Runningmom80 said:

 

The psych only did the IQ test, everything else, including the diagnosing was done by the SLP. I guess I'm being a baby about it not being "official" and on the report, and I probably need to just get over it and move on. 

I was looking at Barton, I think she would go through it quickly too. 

When I have moments like this, I go to the gym and get an 18 pound ball and do some slam balls. Keep doing them, thinking about this person, till it's all out.

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Back to the curriculum...🤣

Should I do what I was doing that was working before she started school? I am a little concerned about the calculating, but maybe I can just add in more practice. I don't mind switching, but I don't think she needs something like Ronit at this point.

I'm most likely over thinking everything. That's my go-to.

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