When two of your friends dont like each other

[Ginevra]

At our ages, its not much drama but I still dont dig it. I like “Susie” and I like “Jane.” But they are also two very different people; one is refined, the other is blunt. I can accept Susie’s bluntness because there’s other things I like about her, but I can see why Jane just really doesn’t like that at all. Jane has virtually nothing in common with Susie. 

Because Susie is blunt, she will say, “I know you like Jane but she doesnt like me and I dont care much for her, either.” Ah, yes well...Im not stabbing anyone in the back, here. And i def. want Susie to know by example I dont stab her in the back, either, so I say something like, “I know you clash; I dont think its a particular event that happened, you just have different personalities. “ (which is true.) Im trying to steer the ship out of the sharky waters because im not going to betray any friends behind their backs. Eventually the subject morphs to something else and it seems the exchange worked out. But truthfully, I would rather this never ever would come up. I hate conflict. I would rather it were never mentioned! 

(Forgive lack of proper punctuation; typing one handed.) 

[marbel]

I get you about not wanting conflict between friends, but I don't get the situation really. Why does Susie bring Jane up in conversation?   Is she trying to get you to dump Jane as a friend?  Are you stuck in a situation where you are in a group together and have to choose between them for conversation during an event?   I think I would just say what you quoted above, every time Susie starts talking about Jane.  But I think I would also start wondering if I really liked Susie so much, if she is continually harping on Jane.

Most likely I am misunderstanding the situation and dynamic. 

[bolt.]

Well, as grown ups, I doubt they feel the need to mention it terribly often. If they do, maybe respond by asking for what you want: “I know, but I hope we can leave it unsaid, okay?”

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, marbel said:

I get you about not wanting conflict between friends, but I don't get the situation really. Why does Susie bring Jane up in conversation?   Is she trying to get you to dump Jane as a friend?  Are you stuck in a situation where you are in a group together and have to choose between them for conversation during an event?   I think I would just say what you quoted above, every time Susie starts talking about Jane.  But I think I would also start wondering if I really liked Susie so much, if she is continually harping on Jane.

Most likely I am misunderstanding the situation and dynamic. 

Its because we are in the same group and conflicts arise because Jane has authority in certain instances. So Susie is annoyed about the handling of the thing and her dislike of Jane came up surrounding it. So - not the instance, but like if Jane organizes the Christmas pageant and Susie didnt like something she was being told to do. So shes venting to me about the pageant but also is frustrated with Jane, too. 

Its not happening again and again and again, but it has happened twice in a short time span because of the thing/event she’s unhappy about. 

[Scarlett]

I hear ya Quill.  I was just thinking about this the other day....my best friend since childhood and a newer friend (17 years or so) are now SILs and there is so much tension.  Ugh.  It stems from my best friend's relationship with her brother which I know ALL about because I have known them literally since the brother was in K.  I always thought my friend was hard on her brother but I rarely felt the need to get in the middle of it or take his side because well SHE was my best friend.  But then my newer friend, with whom I share a really close bond and love like a sister, MARRIED the brother and I see things even MORE clearly now and frankly it makes me not like my older best friend as much even though the newer friend NEVER tries to gossip or talk bad about my friend.  It really gives me a sinking feeling....even the last time I saw my older best friend she was ragging on her brother to me and I didn't defend him and I am upset with myself and now it makes me just want to avoid her all together.  Ugh.  If you followed any of that...All that to say....yes it sucks.

[Guest]

@Scarlett yes, “sinking feeling” -that is exactly it. 

[Scarlett]

13 minutes ago, Quill said:

@Scarlett yes, “sinking feeling” -that is exactly it. 

And yes, because we are grown ups it isn't like there is fighting....the biggest problem I have is that I don't like the side of my oldest friend that has been fully revealed to me.  It is painful. I still love her...but I don't think I can ever be as close and open with her ever again.

[sassenach]

All you can control is you. You either entertain these comments or you put up a boundary. I would say, "I love you, Susie, but I can't be the person you complain to anymore. It puts me in an uncomfortable position and I don't enjoy it." This may be indelicate, but when my dh was dealing with some life altering medical stuff, he used it as both motivation and justification to make some shifts in some relationships. New (healthier) boundaries were respected by the other party because when he said "life is short and I'm not doing this anymore," it carried some weight.

[gardenmom5]

Because Susie is blunt, she will say, “I know you like Jane but she doesnt like me and

I dont care much for her, either.”

unless she had JUST BEEN ASKED (like 30 seconds before) if she liked jane . . I would consider that plain rude.   It could also be a case of "the lady doth protest too much" and she's hurt/offended jane doesn't like her.

I think your response is wishy-washy, trying to have it both ways.   it sounds like a non-specific non-apology.

Frankly - I would refuse to discuss the other with either of them (especially susie). I wouldn't bring them up to the other, at all.   if they do - I would shut it down as a topic.   "I like you, you are my friend and that is all that matters"  and change the subject.

 

 

[gardenmom5]

1 hour ago, Quill said:

Its because we are in the same group and conflicts arise because Jane has authority in certain instances. So Susie is annoyed about the handling of the thing and her dislike of Jane came up surrounding it. So - not the instance, but like if Jane organizes the Christmas pageant and Susie didnt like something she was being told to do. So shes venting to me about the pageant but also is frustrated with Jane, too. 

Its not happening again and again and again, but it has happened twice in a short time span because of the thing/event she’s unhappy about. 

susie is voluntarily participating in the group activity with Jane.  it's her choice.   I would tell her simply - you are my friend, but so is Jane.  I am no longer available to listen to your complaints about jane.

 then do not allow her to complain about jane to you anymore.

I would like to point out - entertaining a person's petty complaints, can actually increase how much they complain because that becomes their focus. 

 

[J-rap]

That would drive me kind of crazy!  I have friends from very different backgrounds, and I'm quite sure a lot of them wouldn't be able to stand each other if left together.  But, I get that this is within the same small circle.

If you think Susie has a point, maybe you can encourage her to maturely discuss with Jane instead of just complaining to you.  But, it sounds like she's the type of person who would rather just take the easier path of complaining instead of trying to find a solution.

I think I'd either 1) be more blunt with Susie about how you feel regarding her complaining, or 2) not even engage with her about it, at all.  Just change the subject.  Maybe she'll get the hint?

[Guest]

24 minutes ago, J-rap said:

That would drive me kind of crazy!  I have friends from very different backgrounds, and I'm quite sure a lot of them wouldn't be able to stand each other if left together.  But, I get that this is within the same small circle.

If you think Susie has a point, maybe you can encourage her to maturely discuss with Jane instead of just complaining to you.  But, it sounds like she's the type of person who would rather just take the easier path of complaining instead of trying to find a solution.

I think I'd either 1) be more blunt with Susie about how you feel regarding her complaining, or 2) not even engage with her about it, at all.  Just change the subject.  Maybe she'll get the hint?

I think shes blowing off steam. I dont think she is great at managing her emotions, is stressed about some other stuff in her life, and just doesnt want to deal with Jane “telling [her] what to do”. So, yeah...I dont see her as well-developed in managing her own emotions. Its why I feel like Im trying to handle her upset with kid gloves. Im trying to help her grow past it. 

[Tanaqui]

But it's not your job to help her grow past it. If this is something she needs help with, there are all sorts of people she can get help from who are not friends with the person she dislikes. This isn't a place for kid gloves. It's a place for boundaries. "Susie, I know that you feel strongly about Jane, but I just can't listen to you vent about her anymore. She is my friend, and this makes me uncomfortable. You need to take your complaints to somebody else."

[Guest]

21 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

But it's not your job to help her grow past it. If this is something she needs help with, there are all sorts of people she can get help from who are not friends with the person she dislikes. This isn't a place for kid gloves. It's a place for boundaries. "Susie, I know that you feel strongly about Jane, but I just can't listen to you vent about her anymore. She is my friend, and this makes me uncomfortable. You need to take your complaints to somebody else."

Why would that be, though? Do you not think we make allowances for people? I don’t think one can only be friends with someone who’s all fixed up and has no more developing to do. I wouldn’t have had any friends myself. 

I did set a boundry. I was just gentle about it. And it may need to be repeated, which I don’t look forward to. 

[gardenmom5]

21 minutes ago, Quill said:

 

I did set a boundry. I was just gentle about it. And it may need to be repeated, which I don’t look forward to. 

Boundaries should be firm.  Your's sounds squishy....

[Guest]

Just now, gardenmom5 said:

Boundaries should be firm.  Your's sounds squishy....

But I didnt encourage/permit complaining about the friend. I steered it. I still think that’s a boundry, like when you ask a toddler if they want to read the book before the bathtime or after. Still going to be a bath, just when do you want it to happen. 

I think being forceful would be counter productive, not to mention Im not forceful in general. 

[Ausmumof3]

I’ve had that situation and same deal - family members.  Also same with two of the kids sets of friends - again family members but the parents really didn’t get along.

Its so awkward and there’s no real easy way to handle it.

[Selkie]

32 minutes ago, Thatboyofmine said:

Here’s what I’d say (every single time), “Meh, that’s life.”  Rinse and repeat.  (Although if I had to repeat, I’d probably snap at her and tell her to drop it because we’re not 13, which means I might be as blunt as she is.)  ?

I agree. It would get tiresome really quickly. If she kept it up, I would drop the friendship because I don't have patience for grade school stuff.

[Peaceseeker]

I get trying to be tactful and gentle.  But if the friend is the blunt type, that might go right over her head and you may find her continuing to bring up her dislike of the other person, which will put you in a continual tight spot of trying to be understanding without talking about your other friend.

In my experience blunt people appreciate bluntness in others and sometimes miss finer communication styles.  Even if it is not your style to be blunt, you may need to be more direct if this continues.  Then it might be time for saying "I love you but you gotta find another friend to vent to about Jane because she is my friend too.  I would say the same to her if she was venting about you".

In the meantime whenever it comes up, I would pretend your other friend is right beside you when you answer.  How would you respond if Jane was in earshot?  Use that as your ruler and you will be ok.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, CaliforniaDreamin said:

I get trying to be tactful and gentle.  But if the friend is the blunt type, that might go right over her head and you may find her continuing to bring up her dislike of the other person, which will put you in a continual tight spot of trying to be understanding without talking about your other friend.

In my experience blunt people appreciate bluntness in others and sometimes miss finer communication styles.  Even if it is not your style to be blunt, you may need to be more direct if this continues.  Then it might be time for saying "I love you but you gotta find another friend to vent to about Jane because she is my friend too.  I would say the same to her if she was venting about you".

In the meantime whenever it comes up, I would pretend your other friend is right beside you when you answer.  How would you respond if Jane was in earshot?  Use that as your ruler and you will be ok.

If it continues, I admit and agree a different approach may be necessary. Here’s the thing about her bluntness, and I think this is true for many people like her: I think it’s a hard shell developed from not being well cared for by others. It’s that wall of toughness often seen in hurt people. I think some people are practically waiting for any whiff of you dumping them, too. That’s why I don’t want to behave in a rejecting manner. I think the point can still be taken by demonstrating peace and tolerance. Hopefully I dont turn out to be wrong about that. 

[gardenmom5]

3 hours ago, Quill said:

But I didnt encourage/permit complaining about the friend. I steered it. I still think that’s a boundry, like when you ask a toddler if they want to read the book before the bathtime or after. Still going to be a bath, just when do you want it to happen. 

I think being forceful would be counter productive, not to mention Im not forceful in general. 

I find the example you gave of how you "steer" the conversations as too . . . slack.   people who "are clueless" (many times blunt people are clueless to social niceties), don't get "nuance".  

I would go for a straight "you are my friend, jane is my friend.  I cannot tolerate listening to you badmouthing my friend anymore, just as I would not tolerate listening to anyone else badmouth you.  I plan on continuing to be your friend - without Jane being mentioned." 

[moonflower]

Do people really talk like that in real life? (the firmer setting of boundaries suggestions given here, verbatim)

I don't mean that as criticism or snark or anything, I promise.  I just cannot imagine ever saying anything like that unless it were a really serious and immediate situation, the kind where your brain goes kind of numb and you just say the first thing that comes to mind. So I want to know if people really, 100% seriously, actually in reality do say things like that.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

I find the example you gave of how you "steer" the conversations as too . . . slack.   people who "are clueless" (many times blunt people are clueless to social niceties), don't get "nuance".  

I would go for a straight "you are my friend, jane is my friend.  I cannot tolerate listening to you badmouthing my friend anymore, just as I would not tolerate listening to anyone else badmouth you.  I plan on continuing to be your friend - without Jane being mentioned." 

Well, she never really got to bad-mouthing Jane and even she directly acknowledged that I am friends with Jane. It was more like, as Scarlett said, a sinking feeling, where I thought, “oh, no...dont say anything bad about Jane. Be mad that the situation isnt how you like it but dont attack my friend.” And she didnt. But I did feel that I needed to nip it in the bud before it turned into something like, “It’s Jane and her bossy bitchiness.” (Or whatever she might have said.) She was mostly complaining about the way a whole event was playing out, to which I was just empathizing; ie., yeah, that’s lousy...that sounds like a miscommunication....that doesn’t make sense to me, either. But then she dropped a couple of names and one of them was Jane, so I worked on steering it away from my friend. 

 

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, moonflower said:

Do people really talk like that in real life? (the firmer setting of boundaries suggestions given here, verbatim)

I don't mean that as criticism or snark or anything, I promise.  I just cannot imagine ever saying anything like that unless it were a really serious and immediate situation, the kind where your brain goes kind of numb and you just say the first thing that comes to mind. So I want to know if people really, 100% seriously, actually in reality do say things like that.

Yeah I wonder that, too. 

I will be the first to confess I am NOT good at managing conflict, especially unexpectedly or in person. My parents were not good models of managing conflict and I feel like I never got too good at it. 

[gardenmom5]

15 minutes ago, moonflower said:

Do people really talk like that in real life? (the firmer setting of boundaries suggestions given here, verbatim)

I don't mean that as criticism or snark or anything, I promise.  I just cannot imagine ever saying anything like that unless it were a really serious and immediate situation, the kind where your brain goes kind of numb and you just say the first thing that comes to mind. So I want to know if people really, 100% seriously, actually in reality do say things like that.

depends upon the situation.   some people can be incredibly obtuse, and I have found I have to be . . . . very. clear, no if's, and's, or but's . . . for it to register.    

the thing I probably use the most . . .  some version of "that doens't work for me". ('nope, doens't work". etc.)

[Tanaqui]

Quote

Do people really talk like that in real life? (the firmer setting of boundaries suggestions given here, verbatim) 

 

That's pretty much exactly the script I followed (and repeat whenever it comes up) when I told my mother I was no longer going to listen to her complain about my sister. Period.

If you're not clear and direct, sometimes people misunderstand. Or perhaps they "misunderstand" - no way of telling if they're doing it by accident or not! Or they don't take it seriously, because you didn't seem serious. Or I find that I get shaky and red and everything comes out jumbled. Not helpful. Nope, the way to do it is clear, direct, and pre-rehearsed. (Well, I pre-rehearse nearly everything I say, including things like "Ma'am, I'm getting off soon, do you want my seat?" and "Hi, I'd like to place an order for delivery....")

Quill, I'm not suggesting that you dump your friend until a better, more perfect version of her comes along. But it's perfectly reasonable of you not to want to listen to her bashing your other friend, and it's also reasonable of you to tell her that you don't want her dumping that on you anymore. You can help her with all sorts of other things that don't make you feel bad. And however you ultimately choose to phrase it, I think it's kinder to tell her directly rather than let *your* bad feelings about all this sour your friendship. If she's a blunt, direct person then she can probably handle some blunt, direct language.

[gardenmom5]

No is not in mil's vocabulary.   We have to be blunt.

[bolt.]

I think even very blunt people deserve to hear a clear but softly worded “let’s not talk about it” message once or twice — before jumping to “I will no longer tolerate it” messaging.

[HS Mom in NC]

The problem here is venting about someone to a mutual friend.  She should vent to someone who isn't Jane's friend.  If Susie is blunt, then Susie should be able to handle you pointing this out matter of factly.  "I know she bugs you, but you should vent to a neutral party about that because I'm friends with both of you and you're putting me in an awkward position by venting to me. Who else you could vent to about her that wouldn't be put in an awkward situation and can keep confidence?"

[Carol in Cal.]

If it were me, the second time I would say, "I like Jane and I don't gossip about my friends.  I don't gossip about you, either."  And I'd repeat that as necessary.