s/o What do you consider child abuse?

[bumbledeb]

foster parents (despite the needed service they provide) are not parents. They are caring for the child as an agent of the state and a temporary guardian in lieu of the actual parents. The limitations of their "rights" are necessary due to the fact that they are not the actual parents.

 

In addition to this, foster parents are dealing with children who have been hurt, usually significantly and over a long period of time. Such children do have to be treated differently. Comparing traumatized, abused children to children growing up in stable, loving families is futile.

 

The reason I mentioned foster parents is that they are not allowed to spank but they still are able to keep the kids under their care safe. I use this example to illustrate the fact that spanking is never actually necessary.

 

I'm sure that there are PLENTY of parents who aren't trying hard enough on whatever issue for WHATEVER reason --like, are parents who aren't homeschooling not homeschooling because they aren't trying hard enough, or because they see a more effective way to accomplish a couple of key things for their family?

 

I meant that the fact that spanking is an available option to them could perhaps mean that they do not try to find an alternative, leading to the view that spanking is sometimes necessary. I think that if for some reason the option to spank were removed such parents may find that spanking is not necessary and that there are indeed better ways to parent.

[bumbledeb]

This is an example of what she did when she was 3, now that she is 6 (as of 5 days ago) she goes for more interesting targets of death, like my son's 4-wheeler, which we diligently hide the keys but don't think she doesn't look for it. This child in 1 week (oops I interupt this post to tell you that this said child in the five minutes I have been reading the responses to these threads I posted has while I was watching her in between strokes done the following: cut the brownies, thankfully with a butter knife, she circled the back way around the kitchen, climbed up on the counter reached over the sink, pulled down 2 bags of cereal and poured 1/2 gallon of milk into a cup. How you say? Because she is quick and sneaky!! I never heard a thing, I kept looking up and watching her dance in front of the TV to a movie, but as she moves so quickly she was dartig in and out of the kitchen, oh look she is moving into the kitchen to get a second brownie)

Back to my post: in 1 week she jumped into the pool while standing by my side and in a swimmy suit which she stripped out of in 2 seconds flat as I was talking to my other daughters swim teacher and proceeded to drown in front of me and 2 lifeguards who developed blindness all of the sudden to the point that I had to jump in fully clothed. 2 days later, we ran in the house and the two little ones ran back to their room and put on swim suits, and in the 3 minutes that it tookd for them to change the phone rang and somehow while I was looking up a telephone number for dh, the little one then 4 ran out the garage to our car and got in (we were going to the pool) without me seeing her. I yelled a moment later for them to load up and what do you know I can't find her. As I run screaming around the house and call 911 and all the neighbors I stop to cry out to God in prayer and I was walking by our car and heard a murmur, a noise, something and yanked open the door to find my naked beet red daughter laying on the floor of the car. It had only been about 15 minutes but in GA that is enought to raise a car temp to over 115 degrees or more. I of course took her the tub to lower her 101.00 temp and then hightailed it to the hospital. I call that week the week of trying to commit suicide.

Shall I tell you about the following year on Black Friday when I had gone home to pick up the kids after the morning sales because they callled wanting to be with me at the mall so I took them shopping and while trying on a scarf on my other daughter with the little tornadoe right next to me she backed into the jeans rack and hid. Just playing around as she and her brother had been playing hide and seek all morning but Mommy panicked and started calling out for her which of course set off all the mothers in the store calling and she got scared at the commotion and voila'! Code 'Adam and the mall was locked down. 10 of the longest minutes of my life with me a screaming puddle on the floor (I know pedophiles hunt for children in malls) later a lovely older woman spotted the jeans moving. and drug that protesting little ball of blonde hair to me. did I beat her? No but I should have! I was too busy kissing her and calling for a valium.

 

so yes I am telling you there are children who will stick a pair of scissors in a socket while looking you in the eyes. They really don't believe you when you tell them it will hurt. They have to find out for themselves. My girlfriend has foster she adopted who is her clone, and now that they can spank her she is shaping up. Seriously, it is a mixture of discipline techniques. That I believe is the best way. But catch the "I believe" no one else has to. And as for my 6 year old. The training of "come to me" only has failed once. Guess when? you betcha, that day on Black Friday at the mall.

 

There is so much here, I can't begin to imagine what you have been going through. Seriously, you have my sympathy.

 

I'm not sure how spanking has helped though. Look, I am not judging you or your parenting choices, I don't know you and I've never met your child and I am certain that you are trying your very best to keep your child safe. If you really do want my opinion, which I can well imagine you can live without,:lol: then pm me. I'm not sure if I'm the best person to ask, but I do have some ideas.

[sunshine]

If by "spanking" infants, you mean slapping on the buttocks with hand, then, no, the Pearls do not advocate spanking.

 

Instead, they advise the use of a foot long switch on infants as young as a few months old: " ... For the under-one-year-old, a little, 10- to 12-inch long, willowy branch (stripped of any knots that might break the skin) about one-eighth inch diameter is sufficient ... " In fact, early on in the book they describe whipping their own 4 month old daughter.

 

The book is available in its entirety online at:

http://city.hokkai.or.jp/~repent/EnglishPages/TrainUp.html

 

 

Please do read it because it is not advocating "whipping" a four month old. That statement is over the top. And they do not describe "whipping" their child. Just to be clear: I have met the Pearl's. I spent time with them and their families. Their children have children now and that family is an amazingly close and happy clan. Happiness glows from the kids faces and the parents. Everyone is in control of themselves and their children. They are a sight to behold. I believe a child is happy with limits and boundaries that they know won't move. The Pearl's children are a testimony to loving parents whose desire is to do what is best for their children. They advocate doing all activities with their kids, they are super involved. They work and play side by side with their children. They have no patience with selfish parents who don't take time to train their children. And they train mainly with positive reinforcement but do use negative reinforcement with multiple tools. Spanking is one of them. But it is encouraged to be one that you will lose first.

You may not agree with it, you may not want to use it, but do not disparage it with exaggerated statements using terms like "whipping" that is a horrible word. And if anyone whips their child they should be stopped immediately.

I do not agree with the "reasoning" with little children, that is their informational stage, they just need the information with a short explanation of why and what will happen if they do it again.

That is my opinion, it is what I use, if you do not and want (which I asked for earlier and never received) to give concrete examples and a helpful list of alternatives with examples of what degree each punishment or disciplinary procedure is used then do it. I know everyone would love to hear it. But quit with the arguing. It is not helpful and it is getting a little out of hand. This is about as divisive as politics. We are not going to agree, how about giving some good examples as to what you use and why it works for you? In what situations do somethings work and others do not. You can say that it is an alternative to physical discipline, but quit being so snarky to the ones who use physical discipline. To a person I would bet that every spanker would love to know an alternative to try. we are all homeschoolers and care for our kids a little above the normal population to begin with (unless there are closet abusers out there hiding the kids from the school system and if you are I will hunt you down and do the Biblical thing to you) and not the "can't be bothered parents that the world is full of. Yes they probably spank because it is quick and easy and is a frustration release, but I know that every spanker is not like that and takes great thought and care in the physical discipline.

I am sorry some of you were abused. Whipped, beaten, swung in circles and hit with belts, bats whatever. But don't you dare suggest that is what is happening in my house when I spank my children. Normal people don't do that, that is abuse. All spanking is not abuse. And you are speaking through your own experiences when you generalize.

Now post something worth reading, like your alternatives in detail

Edited November 16, 2008 by sunshine
Spelling dear Heaven spelling

[sunshine]

There is so much here, I can't begin to imagine what you have been going through. Seriously, you have my sympathy.

 

I'm not sure how spanking has helped though. Look, I am not judging you or your parenting choices, I don't know you and I've never met your child and I am certain that you are trying your very best to keep your child safe. If you really do want my opinion, which I can well imagine you can live without,:lol: then pm me. I'm not sure if I'm the best person to ask, but I do have some ideas.

 

 

You are so sweet!! Believe it or not she is 100% better these days. She is just an unbelievably curious and strong willed child that had to be focused in the right direction. And watched 24/7!! She was a danger to herself because of her curiosity and lack of impulse control. We used multiple tools, not just spanking, that really was the one we used the least, she is learning to get control of her impulses. She just doesn't think sometimes and when she does she is convinced she is right. Oh my that sounds like me!!!:lol:.

on the other hand she is great in math! Last year at age 5 she completed 3 math workbooks and regularly does 3-7 lessons a day. But doesn't have time to learn to read!!:glare: She is just a different personality. And she is a complete delight!

[Lovedtodeath]

I do not agree with the "reasoning" with little children, that is their informational stage, they just need the information with a short explanation of why and what will happen if they do it again.

That is my opinion, it is what I use, if you do not and want (which I asked for earlier and never received) to give concrete examples and a helpful list of alternatives with examples of what degree each punishment or disciplinary procedure is used then do it. I know everyone would love to hear it. But quit with the arguing. It is not helpful and it is getting a little out of hand. This is about as divisive as politics. We are not going to agree, how about giving some good examples as to what you use and why it works for you? In what situations do somethings work and others do not. You can say that it is an alternative to physical discipline, but quit being so snarky to the ones who use physical discipline. To a person I would bet that every spanker would love to know an alternative to try. we are all homeschoolers and care for our kids a little above the normal population to begin with and not the "can't be bothered parents that the world is full of.

Now post something worth reading, like your alternatives in detail

 

Good show.:iagree:

[st_claire]

How did you draw that conclusion from Peek's comments? If you are arguing that Peek, by spanking teaches that "adults can touch (I assume you mean molest) children" you are stretching logic past the breaking point.

 

By touch I mean touch. I mean an adult can place their hands on a child's body in a way the child doesn't want. You may see a big difference between hitting and molesting, but a child may easily see both as unwanted physical contact. I also wouldn't force my children to hug relatives if they didn't want to, etc... I think a child should always be allowed to say no to being touched.

[bumbledeb]

.

I do not agree with the "reasoning" with little children, that is their informational stage, they just need the information with a short explanation of why and what will happen if they do it again.

That is my opinion, it is what I use, if you do not and want (which I asked for earlier and never received) to give concrete examples and a helpful list of alternatives with examples of what degree each punishment or disciplinary procedure is used then do it. I know everyone would love to hear it. But quit with the arguing. It is not helpful and it is getting a little out of hand. This is about as divisive as politics. We are not going to agree, how about giving some good examples as to what you use and why it works for you? In what situations do somethings work and others do not. You can say that it is an alternative to physical discipline, but quit being so snarky to the ones who use physical discipline. To a person I would bet that every spanker would love to know an alternative to try. we are all homeschoolers and care for our kids a little above the normal population to begin with (unless there are closet abusers out there hiding the kids from the school system and if you are I will hunt you down and do the Biblical thing to you) and not the "can't be bothered parents that the world is full of. Yes they probably spank because it is quick and easy and is a frustration release, but I know that every spanker is not like that and takes great thought and care in the physical discipline.

I am sorry some of you were abused. Whipped, beaten, swung in circles and hit with belts, bats whatever. But don't you dare suggest that is what is happening in my house when I spank my children. Normal people don't do that, that is abuse. All spanking is not abuse. And you are speaking through your own experiences when you generalize.

Now post something worth reading, like your alternatives in detail

 

OK, I'll try.

 

I do not punish my children. Any of them. For anything. In any way. I have a 16 year old boy, a 14 year old boy, a 9 year old girl and an almost 5 year old girl. (They are all wonderful, by the way. Not perfect, still normal imperfect humans but very well-behaved, polite, obedient, respectful and Christian.)

 

So, I do not have suggestions as to alternative punishments.

 

I would like to respectfully (I really do mean that) suggest an entirely different form of parenting to the typical 'training' that is generally advocated.

 

I am very involved with my children on a day to day, hour by hour basis, more so while they are very young. I try to anticipate what they will be wanting. I give them advice and explain things to them, at length and on many occasions. Often we discuss the same thing in different ways at different times. I try to view them as meaning well but not always automatically knowing the correct or socially acceptable way to behave. So, when something arises that makes it clear that some aspect of morally or socially acceptable behaviour needs clarifying we talk about it.

 

Yes, children are inexperienced, immature and ignorant of many things, that is why, in my opinion, they have parents to give them the knowledge they need.

 

I believe in teaching my children by example and by directly telling them what they need to know.

 

I hope that helps to explain how I can be raising good kids without spanking.

[bumbledeb]

You are so sweet!! Believe it or not she is 100% better these days. She is just an unbelievably curious and strong willed child that had to be focused in the right direction. And watched 24/7!! She was a danger to herself because of her curiosity and lack of impulse control. We used multiple tools, not just spanking, that really was the one we used the least, she is learning to get control of her impulses. She just doesn't think sometimes and when she does she is convinced she is right. Oh my that sounds like me!!!:lol:.

on the other hand she is great in math! Last year at age 5 she completed 3 math workbooks and regularly does 3-7 lessons a day. But doesn't have time to learn to read!!:glare: She is just a different personality. And she is a complete delight!

 

I'm glad. She sounds amazing.:)

[sunshine]

By touch I mean touch. I mean an adult can place their hands on a child's body in a way the child doesn't want. You may see a big difference between hitting and molesting, but a child may easily see both as unwanted physical contact. I also wouldn't force my children to hug relatives if they didn't want to, etc... I think a child should always be allowed to say no to being touched.

I agree, when you put it that way. I am going to think on that one.See, if we explain why, non confrontational, people listen. I have never made my children hug or kiss who they didn't want to.

[Lovedtodeath]

OK, I'll try.

 

I do not punish my children. Any of them. For anything. In any way. I have a 16 year old boy, a 14 year old boy, a 9 year old girl and an almost 5 year old girl. (They are all wonderful, by the way. Not perfect, still normal imperfect humans but very well-behaved, polite, obedient, respectful and Christian.)

 

So, I do not have suggestions as to alternative punishments.

 

I would like to respectfully (I really do mean that) suggest an entirely different form of parenting to the typical 'training' that is generally advocated.

 

I am very involved with my children on a day to day, hour by hour basis, more so while they are very young. I try to anticipate what they will be wanting. I give them advice and explain things to them, at length and on many occasions. Often we discuss the same thing in different ways at different times. I try to view them as meaning well but not always automatically knowing the correct or socially acceptable way to behave. So, when something arises that makes it clear that some aspect of morally or socially acceptable behaviour needs clarifying we talk about it.

 

Yes, children are inexperienced, immature and ignorant of many things, that is why, in my opinion, they have parents to give them the knowledge they need.

 

I believe in teaching my children by example and by directly telling them what they need to know.

 

I hope that helps to explain how I can be raising good kids without spanking.

My DD lied to me twice and concealed the truth more than that within the past 4 days. If I do not punish her for lying, then what do I do? I let her know the first time that I was very disappointed. (sad, not angry) It must not have had much impact, because she lied again.

[sunshine]

OK, I'll try.

 

I do not punish my children. Any of them. For anything. In any way. I have a 16 year old boy, a 14 year old boy, a 9 year old girl and an almost 5 year old girl. (They are all wonderful, by the way. Not perfect, still normal imperfect humans but very well-behaved, polite, obedient, respectful and Christian.)

 

So, I do not have suggestions as to alternative punishments.

 

I would like to respectfully (I really do mean that) suggest an entirely different form of parenting to the typical 'training' that is generally advocated.

 

I am very involved with my children on a day to day, hour by hour basis, more so while they are very young. I try to anticipate what they will be wanting. I give them advice and explain things to them, at length and on many occasions. Often we discuss the same thing in different ways at different times. I try to view them as meaning well but not always automatically knowing the correct or socially acceptable way to behave. So, when something arises that makes it clear that some aspect of morally or socially acceptable behaviour needs clarifying we talk about it.

 

Yes, children are inexperienced, immature and ignorant of many things, that is why, in my opinion, they have parents to give them the knowledge they need.

 

I believe in teaching my children by example and by directly telling them what they need to know.

 

I hope that helps to explain how I can be raising good kids without spanking.

 

 

You, dearest, were not one that I was directly speaking to but I really liked your explanation and am going to keep it. I do all of that mainly but there must be something I am not consistent with. I will have to search.

[bumbledeb]

My DD lied to me twice and concealed the truth more than that within the past 4 days. If I do not punish her for lying, then what do I do? I let her know the first time that I was very disappointed. (sad, not angry) It must not have had much impact, because she lied again.

 

It is not particularly unusual for children of her age to lie and they don't always understand what they are doing or especially why it is wrong.

 

You are a Christian, I know, and I believe it would be appropriate to discuss lying from a Christian standpoint with her. There is some helpful literature you could use. If you feel she is too young for that, you could simply remind her that lying is wrong.

 

Having said all that, if it was my child I'd also look into what were her reasons for lying. Was it fear of punishment or even just fear of disapproval? I think it is very helpful to really try to empathize with her and let her know you understand and want to help her.

[st_claire]

I'm not sure where you are getting the idea that a punishment doesn't teach a lesson. People learn from experiences --including painful ones.

 

Where did I say that it doesn't teach a lesson? No where. Obviously it teaches not to do it again. But so do other methods that are far more just and civilized.

 

 

a take down IS a punishment.

since you are wanting to correct errors, we'll start w/ your own:

 

punishment:

2 a: suffering, pain, or loss that serves as retribution b: a penalty inflicted on an offender through judicial procedure

3: severe, rough, or disastrous treatment

 

a spanking is done immediately to stop an unwanted behavior. It is a severe punishment done when other training methods do not work.

a take down is done immediately to stop an unwanted behavior. It is a severe punishment done when other methods have not worked.

 

both are punishment.

both are applied to an immediate circumstance to achieve a desired result.

 

you are confusing your own idea of a timetable w/ something that is not in line w/ the dictionary.

the judicial procedure of a takedown is taught and applied during an officer's training. It is an acceptable method and not likely to get the officer fired-- unless he ABUSES that method. the judicial procedure of a spanking is via the parent's own parenting philosophy per parental rights --unless they ABUSE that method.

 

 

You are incorrect. If you are spanking a child, the unwanted behaviour has already been stopped. They cannot be running onto the street/sticking scissors in electrical sockets/whatever act it is you want not to happen if they are bent over to be hit. Police in North America never advocate using force after the behaviour is stopped.

 

 

that's your own opinion, proved wrong by at least a couple statements here in this thread alone. That you have a fear of someone's spanking doesn't make it a universal fact. You also have not addressed what you intend to do if you are dealing w/ a child that does not respond to typical child training or your preferred methods:

That's right. It is my opinion, as I stated in my first post. You might want to re-read that one. Just like what you say is your opinion. But if someone touched my child in a way they didn't want, such as a spanking, you can bet that there would be hell to pay.

 

As for what I would do if removing privilages or fining them didn't work... I would simply wait. Kids will not want to stay without privilages for long. I can outlast them.

 

 

No, you are making assumptions on what i have taught them:

have you looked at the Scout training materials that the boys and adults and leaders are required to know? There is obviously a difference between teaching a child that they will be punished in a specific way for continued disobedience vs the tactics of a molestor. If you don't understand the difference, then there's not really a discussion to be had.

 

"the tactics of a molestor"? They would use whatever works. If they find a kid who will let adults bend them over and hit their backside, then they will bend the kid over and hit their backside.

 

 

EVERYONE should have a right to say no to unwanted physical contact. The guy who robbed the store, a spouse who is rude to their partner, a child who is rude to a parent. EVERYONE.

[sunshine]

[

.... I can outlast them.

.

 

 

:rofl::rofl::rofl: I am sorry, that cracked me up because it is so true!! and I could just see myself saying that!

[st_claire]

:rofl::rofl::rofl: I am sorry, that cracked me up because it is so true!! and I could just see myself saying that!

 

:) lol, I'm glad I made you laugh. This thread has gotten so serious, it's easy to get carried away. Especially online. Your laughing was a nice break in all the upsetness.

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

EVERYONE should have a right to say no to unwanted physical contact. The guy who robbed the store, a spouse who is rude to their partner, a child who is rude to a parent. EVERYONE.

 

Emphasis above is mine:

 

Well, if I were actually a victim of violent crime I hope someone (the police perhaps) would actually engage in a great deal of unwanted physical contact with my attacker to pull him or her off me or in the course of arresting this person and tossing him/her in prison. Whether my attacker wanted it or not. Surely this sort of physical contact provides a deterrent.

 

{A unneeded point for you to have made in the first place as this bears no relationship to parents who use spanking.}

[Blessedfamily]

The guy who robbed the store will have a lifetime of unwanted touching thereafter (however long his sentence). He'll be searched in places never imagined without his consent. Repeatedly. Just an observation.

[Peek a Boo]

Where did I say that it doesn't teach a lesson? No where. Obviously it teaches not to do it again. But so do other methods that are far more just and civilized.

 

I was responding to where you mentioned :

They use force to make them comply when their compliance is required yes. They do not use force to teach them a lesson.

my response was that a lesson is absolutely being learned.

 

and I do agree that much of the time there ARE more 'civilized' ways of dealing w/ a child. But if you have a child who does not respond to those methods, then even other methods will not be 'civilized' because they don't result in a civilized child.

 

You are incorrect. If you are spanking a child, the unwanted behaviour has already been stopped. They cannot be running onto the street/sticking scissors in electrical sockets/whatever act it is you want not to happen if they are bent over to be hit. Police in North America never advocate using force after the behaviour is stopped.

 

No-- the point is to stop the behavior for the long term.

The unwanted behavior is disobedience.

If one continues to be disobedient --still insists on lying-- then the behavior apparently hasn't stopped, even if the child is bent over a knee. You are assuming the behavior is a specific action that can be stopped by physical restraint.

 

That's right. It is my opinion, as I stated in my first post. You might want to re-read that one. Just like what you say is your opinion. But if someone touched my child in a way they didn't want, such as a spanking, you can bet that there would be hell to pay.

 

and if you were to let my child go off and live w/ somebody just because my kid wanted to, there'd be hell to pay too ;)

 

but when you state your opinion as a blanket statement, expect to be called on it.

 

As for what I would do if removing privilages or fining them didn't work... I would simply wait. Kids will not want to stay without privilages for long. I can outlast them.

 

That's nice if they aren't doing something that is detrimental to themselves or others. But if you would 'wait out' your kid harming themselves you'd be open to charges of neglect.

 

 

"the tactics of a molestor"? They would use whatever works. If they find a kid who will let adults bend them over and hit their backside, then they will bend the kid over and hit their backside.

 

YES-- the tactics of a molestor. educate yourself. If you can't tell the difference and see the signs of a nice guy who would NEVER hit your child but would absolutely manipulate them into sexual positions you are horribly off the mark.

 

EVERYONE should have a right to say no to unwanted physical contact. The guy who robbed the store, a spouse who is rude to their partner, a child who is rude to a parent. EVERYONE.

 

The guy who robbed the store LOSES rights when he infringes on another's-- including the right to unwanted physical contact. As does the child who is disobedient. Everyone has the right to say no to unwanted physical contact if they haven't broken any laws or --in the case of minor children under their parents' supervision and tutelage-- house rules.

[bumbledeb]

and I do agree that much of the time there ARE more 'civilized' ways of dealing w/ a child. But if you have a child who does not respond to those methods, then even other methods will not be 'civilized' because they don't result in a civilized child.

 

Surely the only hope we have of raising civilized children is to be civilized ourselves?

 

Anyway, talking of being civilized - I'm off to bed now so I can get up at a civilized time tomorrow morning.

 

Night-night everyone.:)

[sunshine]

The guy who robbed the store will have a lifetime of unwanted touching thereafter (however long his sentence). He'll be searched in places never imagined without his consent. Repeatedly. Just an observation.

 

 

here I go again!!!:rofl::rofl::smilielol5:

[sunshine]

Surely the only hope we have of raising civilized children is to be civilized ourselves?

 

Anyway, talking of being civilized - I'm off to bed now so I can get up at a civilized time tomorrow morning.

 

Night-night everyone.:)

 

 

Nite nite!!:closedeyes:

[5kidsforME]

.

 

Yes, at first it was purely the inflicting of pain upon my children as a means of punishment that I began to see as morally wrong. Over time I began to understand that punishment of any kind is morally wrong in the case of children. (In my opinion, I mean to say.)

 

 

 

So your kids are not punished whatsoever? What do you do when they do things that are wrong? Nothing?

[Blessedfamily]

here I go again!!!:rofl::rofl::smilielol5:

 

I saw it one time on one of those "lock up" shows. :scared: My My My

[Blessedfamily]

So your kids are not punished whatsoever? What do you do when they do things that are wrong? Nothing?

 

She went to sleep. It must be late where she lives.

[pqr]

Surely the only hope we have of raising civilized children is to be civilized ourselves?

 

I see nothing uncivilized about corporal punishment, or for that matter (in the case of criminals) capital punishment.

 

Civilization is based on the rule of law. As long as the punishments are listed beforehand and as long as their application is fair I see no argument that the behavior is uncivilized.

 

I would ask were we a civilized nation under Kennedy (a time when the majority of parents engaged in corporal punishment)?

 

What shocks me is that we, who spank, have been at various times been called; lazy, uncivilized, unloving, uneducated, abusers and ill able to understand our children. For supposedly enlightened parents the anti-spanking crowd does seem to be remarkably narrow minded and dare I say it, uncivilized, in their ability to accept diverging opinions.

[CAMom]

EVERYONE should have a right to say no to unwanted physical contact. The guy who robbed the store, a spouse who is rude to their partner, a child who is rude to a parent. EVERYONE.

 

I'm still kind of confused. What about my child who did not willingly consent to getting stiches, a vaccine, etc. I definitely forced those things against their consent. Why? Because I, as a parent, know what is best.

 

Also, my kids definitely know the difference between mom and dad being authorized to spank them vs. anyone else being able to lay a hand on them. They know that no other adult is allowed to spank them or touch them without mom and dad's permission.

 

I am still curious as to what the age limit is on you allowing your child to move out if that's what they want...3? 6? 10?:confused:

 

(Just for the record: My older kids are way too old to spank and have not been spanked in years. My three year old is spanked on occassion.)

[sunshine]

So your kids are not punished whatsoever? What do you do when they do things that are wrong? Nothing?

 

 

She is asleep, she lives in Scotland which is 6 hours ahead of Eastern Standard Time (I think!!) But she has some good ideas, stay tuned....:lurk5:

[Laura Corin]

So your kids are not punished whatsoever? What do you do when they do things that are wrong? Nothing?

 

She gave a description of how she leads her children to behave better. It's similar to my methods - I can't remember the last time I punished one of my boys.

 

I'm going to bed too.

 

Laura

[Joanne]

So your kids are not punished whatsoever? What do you do when they do things that are wrong? Nothing?

 

I'm not going to bed, but I am going to organize the house, cook dinner, do laundry and get ready for the week. ;):tongue_smilie::auto::lol:

 

My first reaction the question that non punitive = do nothing was one of anger. That dissipated because I've had this discussion endlessly, own 2000+ person email list about it, created a web site and am writing a book on the topic.

 

I do a lot when my kids' behavior needs correction. I just do things that (usually) avoid arbitrary, unrelated punishment. Spanking is never related. Time out is rarely related. Video games, tv, phone are removed when they are related.

 

I can't answer "what do you do when" questions because my parenting is not formulaic, contrived or scripted. It's intuitive and situation specific.

 

My standards for behavior are high; age and developmentally on target but high. I don't have to punish to get there.

 

It's a whole different paradigm. It's different than some of the posters in this thread in that I don't avoid coercion on my kids. It's different than others because I don't embrace the culturally sanctioned and expected idea that children "need" punishment in order to learn.

[Peek a Boo]

You are incorrect. If you are spanking a child, the unwanted behaviour has already been stopped. They cannot be running onto the street/sticking scissors in electrical sockets/whatever act it is you want not to happen if they are bent over to be hit. Police in North America never advocate using force after the behaviour is stopped.

 

 

oops- i forgot the obvious one:

 

if i need to spank them, then they haven't eaten their veggies yet :D

, so NO, the unwanted behavior --disobedience- is still there.

 

kinda like the police chasing a guy that is carrying a gun:

the guy is cornered, and stops running.

the police tell him to put the gun --which isn't pointed at anyone-- down.

he refuses.

he's not pointing it at anyone, he's not making threatening statements, but he has failed to comply.

they WILL shoot him if he continues to Not Comply.

whether they shoot to wound or to kill is not known to me --not sure if it depends on the officer, department, or situation. and yeah, any cop families can feel free to correct me if i am absolutely wrong here - i can take it ;)

[Peek a Boo]

My first reaction the question that non punitive = do nothing was one of anger. That dissipated because I've had this discussion endlessly, own 2000+ person email list about it, created a web site and am writing a book on the topic.

 

yes, the discussion has been done over and over --i've seen the generalizations before too ;)

parents who spank do nothing BUT spank and are going to have fearful kids.

parents who don't spank don't do ANYTHING and will have misbehaving brats.

neither are usually correct, altho there's always some example of some extreme family we can point to.

 

 

I do a lot when my kids' behavior needs correction.

----------------

I can't answer "what do you do when" questions because my parenting is not formulaic, contrived or scripted. It's intuitive and situation specific.

this probably applies to most of us too --taking a look at the context of the situation is seriously important. sometimes things that seem minor to others outside the family are a sign of something else inside the family.

[Pamela H in Texas]

So your kids are not punished whatsoever? What do you do when they do things that are wrong? Nothing?

 

Do you ONLY punish your children when things aren't going well? Surely not! I'm sure you discipline (teach, guide, lead, help, correct, etc) in a number of ways that aren't punitive right? So just as you don't do "nothing" when you choose not to punish, we choose to discipline in other ways.

 

I can't just give you a set answer because NO situation is indicative of all examples of children needing discipline.

 

But we require first time obedience for young'uns. I believe in coercion as necessary. We have set boundaries, expectations and standards of behavior. We use a variety of discipline set out in the Bible, most of which encourages mildness, kindness, patience, reasoning, encouraging, gentleness, etc.

 

We also believe that discipline is a long-term project so though we had short term goals (get behavior to stop, get certain behaviors to start, etc), we focused on that our main goal is for our children to learn to be happy, healthy, contributing members of society, the congregation, and the family. This requires them to have life skills and tools which we help them learn and practice from a VERY early age.

 

Consequences, when allowed or used, are usually natural or logical.

 

We decided to learn to focus on learning to discipline (teach/guide) better in order to eliminate punishment which caused more trouble to our truly tougher kiddo. Some kids DO respond to punishment but others are harmed by it, making learning from other discipline difficult at best. What we learned was that our easy kiddo did just fine with good strong discipline also. In time, I did daycare, fostering, and helped others with parenting. All the children made remarkable progress when discipline was beefed up and punishment was pushed aside. Of course, not everyone dropped punishment altogether. That is a personal choice and one I respect, but all parents who focus on learning to discipline better have found they punish less often allowing for a better environment for all involved. And kids learned to do right and refrain from wrong for better reasons than a carrot or stick overhead (or under-butt!).

 

Doing nothing should not really be a choice. In my area, a LOT of people punish, especially spank, A LOT, but they really lack the ability to discipline. Many children are out of control despite being punished many times a month, week, even day. If a parent is finding they are using punishment with any regularity, they would do well to consider learning to discipline a bit better and their children will greatly benefit. The best behaved, happiest, healthiest children are those whose parents have learned to properly discipline whether or not they use punishment once in a blue moon.

 

If you are truly interested in learning about disciplining differently, I suggest asking about specific scenarios, reading Joanne's site (which I mostly agree with), considering books like Raising a Thinking Child by Myrna Shure and Positive Discipline A-Z by Nelsen (this one gives specific advice for many common scenarios) and Kids are Worth It by Barbara Coloroso. If you are a Christian, you might try spending a few hours looking up parenting scriptures and their cross references. I did this many years ago (I think I've lost the notebook) and in just the first 2 hours, found like 32 scriptures dealing with discipline, guiding, and teaching. GREAT stuff that really helped me make over my personality in order to be a better parent.

 

I wish you (and everyone) the best in your journey of parenting. It's a GREAT trip :)

[Peek a Boo]

I see nothing uncivilized about corporal punishment, or for that matter (in the case of criminals) capital punishment.

 

Civilization is based on the rule of law. As long as the punishments are listed beforehand and as long as their application is fair I see no argument that the behavior is uncivilized.

--------------------------------

For supposedly enlightened parents the anti-spanking crowd does seem to be remarkably narrow minded and dare I say it, uncivilized, in their ability to accept diverging opinions.

 

that brings up another point:

 

if the child knows they will get a spanking if they do/don't do X, then is their willingness to disobey that a wanting to receive a spank?

And if they can't make that decision, then do they have the maturity to be consenting to decisions of that caliber?

 

and I agree w/ pqr about 'civilized': that's another word that we tend to give our own definition....

 

civilized:

characteristic of a state of civilization <civilized society> ; especially : characterized by taste, refinement, or restraint

 

civilization:

1 a: a relatively high level of cultural and technological development ; specifically : the stage of cultural development at which writing and the keeping of written records is attained b: the culture characteristic of a particular time or place

2: the process of becoming civilized

3 a: refinement of thought, manners, or taste b: a situation of urban comfort

 

 

in both of those, restraint is probably the closest to what we're discussing, but that begs the question: restraint of WHAT? disobedience? action?

neither of those really help much --how about civil?

 

1 a: of or relating to citizens b: of or relating to the state or its citizenry <civil strife>

2 a: civilized <civil society> b: adequate in courtesy and politeness : mannerly <a civil question>

3 a: of, relating to, or based on civil law b: relating to private rights and to remedies sought by action or suit distinct from criminal proceedings c: established by law

4: of, relating to, or involving the general public, their activities, needs, or ways, or civic affairs as distinguished from special (as military or religious) affairs

 

well, that's better, but it has yet to define the proper way to make sure a child ends up being a polite, mannerly citizen that is a benefit to society. We have plenty of those who were spanked, and several who weren't.

[Storm Bay]

I do NOT believe in any form of spanking.

 

There are so many better and more effective ways to discipline a child now, I honestly do not understand why parents spank anymore.

 

Anything that leaves a mark, however long the mark stays there, is, in my opinion, abusive. And my years sitting in a courtroom would back that up.

 

In my opinion, it is NEVER acceptable to smack a child across the face.

 

This is exactly how my sister approached parenting (she's a physician.) Her second dc begged to be spanked, but she refused for a long time. One day, when he was in a rage and demanding to be spanked, she gave him one swat on his bottom. It was like a switch, and he immediately calmed down. He outgrew the need, but I think this is a very interesting lesson. Now, however, I think it's illegal to do that in Canada (I think the UN resolution was passed there), but it wasn't at that time.

[Lovedtodeath]

I don't do positive discipline, it has not been effective.I have to tell all of you that my DD has been totally out of control. I started the plan on Joanne's site and our lives immediately improved.

 

My first reaction the question that non punitive = do nothing was one of anger. That dissipated because I've had this discussion endlessly, own 2000+ person email list about it, created a web site and am writing a book on the topic.

 

oooooo when can I buy it?:D

I think that the reason the question was asked (non punitive = do nothing) is because we have not been taught alternatives. I know I would actually like the question answered. To be perfectly honest, you are one of the first positive discipline gurus I have seen that has a plan other than spoiling for this age group. Most spoil until they get to the logic stage, then they use natural consequences (from what I have seen).

 

Deb, I appreciate your input and I am getting closer to reading the book you recommend.

[sarahv]

I would like to propose that spanking is specifically a "christian" way of disciplining. It is openly talked about in the Bible, and is followed mainly by those who follow the Bible. IMO, those who don't necessarily follow the Bible, wouldn't necessarily want to follow that mode of discipline.

 

I agree with pp's who say that spanking or not spanking is really not the issue, but being loving and consistent in *whatever* form is decided on really makes all the difference in the world for the child.

 

However, that being said, I think that parents in either case raise their children according to their conscience. This is a very important point that must not be neglected. Parents must be free to follow their conscience in this matter. Those who would say that they would "report" soemone for spanking must really think about that long and hard. The ramifications of pulling a child out of the only home he's ever know, from his blood parents (the strongest of all ties) are immense, and will most likely, seeing our current foster care systems, solidify the already negative aspects of his growing years. Personally, I would never "report" anyone unless I knew for certain that a child's life was in danger, or if I know for certain that there was ongoing sexual abuse.

 

Parents MUST be free to raise their children according to their conscience. It is no one's business, especially the government, how that child is being raised.

 

Legislating morality does not work, and only takes away the rights of consciencious people. Morality can only be addressed in the private sector, i.e., churches and other private organizations. For good homes to be established, parents must have a change of heart and lifestyle, and making a law can never accomplish that.

[Peek a Boo]

I would like to propose that spanking is specifically a "christian" way of disciplining. It is openly talked about in the Bible, and is followed mainly by those who follow the Bible. IMO, those who don't necessarily follow the Bible, wouldn't necessarily want to follow that mode of discipline.

 

actually, corporal punishment [for children AND adults] isn't limited to Christianity. There's even disagreement w/in the Christian community over the 'rod and staff' verses as to whether they really mean to strike a child or are analogous w/ Word and Authority. This is a doctrinal issue tho, not a salvation issue ;) The word 'spank' is not mentioned in scripture at all.

Well, maybe in the Texas Translation.... :D

 

I agree with pp's who say that spanking or not spanking is really not the issue, but being loving and consistent in *whatever* form is decided on really makes all the difference in the world for the child.

---------------

Parents MUST be free to raise their children according to their conscience. It is no one's business, especially the government, how that child is being raised.

 

 

:iagree:

[Lovedtodeath]

 

One day, when he was in a rage and demanding to be spanked, she gave him one swat on his bottom.

Do you mean this literally?

[clarkacademy]

My oldest daughter perfect child as far as I am concerned. At a young age she decided every chance she got she would run. Turn your back she was gone. I read the books I majored in early childhood and noone was ever going to spank my child EVER!!!! I spoke, I spoke firmly, then I spoke firmer. Did not matter she was gonna do it. About 2 I had her, my young toddler son and two neices, one in a carrier by the way at a hospital parking lot. There had been a car wreck my sister was in the hospital etc. She ran in front of a bus. The car seat hit the ground and I got to her right as the city bus went sliding into row of bushes. I had flashes of scraping my baby off the sidewalk to bury and I calmly walked to a bathroom with all children in tow. I looked her in the eye and again firmly had reminded her this was unacceptable then I calmly turned her over my knee and wakked her bum. She never ran from me again. Ever. I had tried the books and the child rearing things didn't matter. That child was gonna do it. Devlin is the most sweetest child in the world very well adjusted. I think I have spanked three times in her years Did I leave a bruise Nope. Did I scar her for life Nope. Did I abuse her Not in my opinion maybe someone elses but Oh well. I truly do believe that are children are who they are we can guide we can love they will still make their own choices hopefully they make the right ones. I also believe that God knows abuse and God knows a spank and when it is all over, Isn't He the only one who has the right to judge???

[sarahv]

There's even disagreement w/in the Christian community over the 'rod and staff' verses as to whether they really mean to strike a child or are analogous w/ Word and Authority.

 

Yeah, I know. Which is why it is completely a matter of conscience.

 

civilized:

characteristic of a state of civilization <civilized society> ; especially : characterized by taste, refinement, or restraint (italics mine)

 

Children must learn to control themselves if they are ever going to have healthy, productive, happy lives. Parents seriously disable their children if they do not teach them to control themselves.

 

In our home, it is unacceptable to lose control. I teach my children that when they feel angry, it is unacceptable to hit, throw, or otherwise physically act out. If they are at all unhappy about something, they settle themselves, and then we talk about what can remedy the situation. This works because I do not act out physically in anger. I make it my utmost goal to model what I teach.

 

I do believe very strongly that children will model what they see. Out of control children usually have out of control parents, and vice versa. Training and discipline are only as good as the teacher.

 

You know, I have met so many parents that are following the modern trend which tells you that you are a bad parent if you discipline your child in any kind of a physical way, but are ending up with out of control children. It's like they just think that their kid is going to somehow outgrow his childish ways without correction. Kid's don't raise themselves. (I know you know people like this. I've met far too many...)

[bumbledeb]

So your kids are not punished whatsoever? What do you do when they do things that are wrong? Nothing?

 

:lol:I'm tempted to say I cheer them on and tell them to do it again.:lol:

 

No, of course I don't do nothing.

 

When something comes up we talk about it. I explain why the behaviour is wrong and we discuss ways to avoid it in future.

 

DS14 is standing right beside me and wants me to point out that they hardly ever do anything wrong. :D He is correct. Makes me quite proud, actually.

 

Anyway, I'm just up and have a very busy day ahead so that's all for now.:)

[Pamela H in Texas]

those who would say that they would "report" soemone for spanking must really think about that long and hard.

 

Who said that? BTW, it's wrong in more than a few ways to report abuse (by legal standards) that isn't happening.

[Pamela H in Texas]

You know, I have met so many parents that are following the modern trend which tells you that you are a bad parent if you discipline your child in any kind of a physical way, but are ending up with out of control children.

 

I wish that everyone who claimed this lived in any area of Texas I've ever lived so they couldn't possibly say this. The only people here who claim they don't spank are the ones that don't consider a swat or two on the butt or leg or hand a spanking. You'd be hard pressed to find 5 nonspankers in 30 years. THEN the people that claimed the above would have to find a reason other than spanking or not being the reason for out of control kids and well behaved kids.

 

I think that is why Joanne and I can see it's different than spanking or not. Almost EVERY kid here is spanked (and punished otherwise). So there has to be another reason why some learn to behave and others are out of control. You MUST correct and raise kids with more than just spanking or not spanking.

[clarkacademy]

I have not been able to read all of these posts on this. I have come across the few with the report spanking. I am not in any way trying to be rude but have you really noticed the state of child protective services?? I really do believe that their time is better spent hypothetically here with the child down the road being burned starved and beaten. I don't think the kid who gets a spank here and there needs to take the attention away from that. Too many real cases of abuse are not given attention they need when CPS is dealing with all the reports of supposed abuse. There are way too many that need CPS and I think it is a crying shame all the people who make reports on nothing while these children are falling in the cracks. The empty reports from the neighbor who does not agree with ones child rearing is taking away from the children who need it. Wasting tax dollars, time and energy these CPS workers need to deal with the real cases.

[bumbledeb]

I see nothing uncivilized about corporal punishment, or for that matter (in the case of criminals) capital punishment.

 

Civilization is based on the rule of law. As long as the punishments are listed beforehand and as long as their application is fair I see no argument that the behavior is uncivilized.

 

I would ask were we a civilized nation under Kennedy (a time when the majority of parents engaged in corporal punishment)?

 

What shocks me is that we, who spank, have been at various times been called; lazy, uncivilized, unloving, uneducated, abusers and ill able to understand our children. For supposedly enlightened parents the anti-spanking crowd does seem to be remarkably narrow minded and dare I say it, uncivilized, in their ability to accept diverging opinions.

 

I am not calling you, or any other particular parent lazy, or uncivilized, or unloving, or uneducated, or an abuser, or ill able to understand your children. I may have used some of those words in the course of trying to explain about how I feel about the spanking of children.

 

I believe you are wrong to think that it is ever necessary to spank a child.

 

Most, if not all, of my friends spank their children or have done and I know that most, if not all of them are not lazy, uncivilized, unloving, uneducated or abusive.

 

Actually, it's that last word that started this thread and I do personally believe that spanking is an abusive thing to do. It's not completely clear in my own mind as to why I don't consider most parents who spank to be abusive parents. Perhaps it's because those that I personally know, while I believe them to be wrong in their choice to spank, are quite clearly loving parents.

 

Is that any clearer?:)

[Harriet Vane]

I have not been able to read all of these posts on this. I have come across the few with the report spanking. I am not in any way trying to be rude but have you really noticed the state of child protective services?? I really do believe that their time is better spent hypothetically here with the child down the road being burned starved and beaten. I don't think the kid who gets a spank here and there needs to take the attention away from that. Too many real cases of abuse are not given attention they need when CPS is dealing with all the reports of supposed abuse. There are way too many that need CPS and I think it is a crying shame all the people who make reports on nothing while these children are falling in the cracks. The empty reports from the neighbor who does not agree with ones child rearing is taking away from the children who need it. Wasting tax dollars, time and energy these CPS workers need to deal with the real cases.

 

:iagree: Well said.

[bumbledeb]

I have not been able to read all of these posts on this. I have come across the few with the report spanking. I am not in any way trying to be rude but have you really noticed the state of child protective services?? I really do believe that their time is better spent hypothetically here with the child down the road being burned starved and beaten. I don't think the kid who gets a spank here and there needs to take the attention away from that. Too many real cases of abuse are not given attention they need when CPS is dealing with all the reports of supposed abuse. There are way too many that need CPS and I think it is a crying shame all the people who make reports on nothing while these children are falling in the cracks. The empty reports from the neighbor who does not agree with ones child rearing is taking away from the children who need it. Wasting tax dollars, time and energy these CPS workers need to deal with the real cases.

 

I agree, there are different levels of abuse - some way more serious than others. CPS should probably concentrate first on cases where there is a risk of death, second where there is a risk of serious injury....... and so on.

 

If I saw a parent giving a child a swat or two with their hand I would not report it. In fact in this country, at this time, that kind of spanking is not legally considered abuse. Hitting with a fist or any kind of implement IS illegal in this country and I would have a duty to report it.

[Annabel Lee]

I didn't read the many posts between page 1 and page 20, but I get the gest of the thread. IMO, a 25-year old being spanked is just wrong in so many ways. Both parties involved have got serious issues.

 

I agree that spanking should be reserved for when there is not a logical natural consequence and the child is not old enough to really reason with. It should always be within the context of a structured way it is always done, and with much talking about it and hugs before and after. If the parent has any issues at all controlling their anger with the child, esp. during discipline, I wouldn't recommend spanking for them.

 

About spanking older children: I recieved my last spanking when I was 14 years old for not wanting to attend church. I had been spanked throughout my childhood but had not had one for about 5 years at that point. I was a rude, rebellious teen and at the time it was completely ineffective. I told my mom so, that I thought it was "hilarious - go ahead, see what I care, I'm still not going". I know my mom was doing the best she knew how at the time, her having come from a horribly violent home. IMO her views on it were skewed just a bit by the particular church we attended when I was a kid. She thought she HAD to for my own good - even when she didn't want to, even when there were other ways to deal with me and my actions. So, fwiw, growing up with spankings doesn't equal well behaved kids - in case anyone is under that impression.

[Pamela H in Texas]

So, fwiw, growing up with spankings doesn't equal well behaved kids - in case anyone is under that impression.

 

<gasp> Surely you jest. I mean, it immediately stops bad behavior. It makes misbehavior NEVER happen again. It brings kids closer to their parents. If you don't spank, you're letting your kids run all over you. Unspanked kids are out of control. Kids sometimes NEED a spanking. It's what LOVING responsible parents do. If you don't spank, what do you do: NOTHING?

[bumbledeb]

<gasp> Surely you jest. I mean, it immediately stops bad behavior. It makes misbehavior NEVER happen again. It brings kids closer to their parents. If you don't spank, you're letting your kids run all over you. Unspanked kids are out of control. Kids sometimes NEED a spanking. It's what LOVING responsible parents do. If you don't spank, what do you do: NOTHING?

 

:lol: