anyone else not use SOTW and other 4 yr programs?

[ktgrok]

I'm tired, so forgive my rambling. But I think best with others to bounce ideas off of. This is for my rising 3rd grader for next year. She's  dyslexic, so I'll be doing any reading aloud or using audio books. We've done SOTW with her and older brother years ago, and are using some of Story of Civilization now in the car and as interesting as it is, it's too much. Too much detail. Too much forest/trees/some other metaphor that would make sense with more sleep and caffeine, lol. 

My DD complains she doesn't remember any of it, not that I was telling her that she should, but she wants to. She is more concrete in many ways. She LIKES workbooks. She likes feeling "smart" when she learns and remembers. So as much as this all seems fun, it's not the right fit. 

What worked well for my oldest was Notgrass, and Catholic Textbook Project. In other words, textbooks. Less being more I guess. But other than the new Notgrass one that isn't out yet, there isn't something like that for this age. So...I'm thinking Memoria Press? It's not a textbook program but seems to embrace the less is more philosophy. We'd use Simply Classical I think, maybe level 2. And do the enrichment American History with it (American History picture books). So she'd get a series of picture books, not sure if there are discussion questions in the guide to go with that. And moving on would get greek myths, etc. 

Any thoughts? Anyone get where I'm coming from? Any other options?

[carriede]

We're jumping over to MP next year for my 4th and 2nd graders. We've done SOTW Vol. 1 and 2. I had Vol 3 planned for this school year... we got through chapter 4, and I became frustrated with my kids not remembering ANYTHING. It was obvious to me then that I am not a fan of exposure-based education.

There's no way to learn everything, so why not master what you DO learn?

There are other reasons I'm trying out MP besides the mastery-based history sequence, but it's a major piece of the puzzle.

[Bluegoat]

Does she feel the same way about things like literature?  Most people don't expect to remember every detail of a story, and I think of history at that age as a story.  So, maybe one thing would be to work with expectations.  

But something other that SOTW might stick a lot better.  You could just try another kind of book.  I've had good luck with CHOW and CM style narrations, including drawing, or making a century book.  But something more like just individual stories with a beginning, middle, and end might be better.  Biographies might work along those lines.  Or, you could try more living history based on places you can go to.  Visit the places, then do some reading, or learn about places you have already gone to.  I'd also not be scared to just find historical periods she happens to enjoy at that age.

[Susan in TX]

My preference is to not use any kind of formal history curriculum in the elementary years. My goal is simply exposure. So we read books about different time periods. I really like biographical picture books. We also cover geography this way. 

If you want something more formal so that your daughter feels like she is learning something, you might like Veritas Press History Cards. Each card has information about an event and then a list of books for further reading. There is also a CD with a timeline song to be learned. And a teachers manual with worksheets. You can use all of the program as written or just get the Cards. 

Susan in TX 

[Mrs. Tharp]

The classical approach to history never worked all that well for us. My youngest especially, needs history to be less detailed and more directly relevant. This year, I found Core Knowledge history? https://www.coreknowledge.org/curriculum/history-geography/ 

This is one of the curricula I wish I'd seen 5 years ago. I love everything about it. Great discussion questions, engaging text, focuses on the big ideas. Some writing and some vocabulary--but fine if you just want to use for discussion. I highly recommend it!

 

[CAtoVA]

And... many of the core knowledge modules are available as a free download!!! I used a lot of the reading ones for one of my DD (Language Arts Skills). We also use several of the topical history ones.

https://www.coreknowledge.org/curriculum/download-curriculum/?subject_filter[]=31#filter-wrapper

[Another Lynn]

I think MP has great stuff.  I don't know if Simply Classical materials would be the same way, but with regular MP guides I would keep an open mind about discussing some orally rather than writing out answers to every question in every study guide. 

As far as too many details - I understand what you mean about that.  For that reason, I preferred CHOW over SOTW for the most part.  And so easy to say at the end of the chapter, "Can you tell me 3 things you learned about Alfred the Great?"

[ktgrok]

Going to look at Core Knowledge. DD didn't like CHOW for some reason (I love it though!). Veritas Press is too anti-Catholic for us, but I've considered Catholic Schoolhouse, which has similar cards. 

[8filltheheart]

You might find the opposite approach to a textbook might work better. Whole books on a single focus in history might improve retention vs snippets of info. Many OOP books like Landmark, Signature Classics, etc are great for elementary ages.

[nixpix5]

I literally just mentioned this in another post but I have one soon to be 2nd grader who has a tough time retaining details as well. They are doing a VP self paced course together but this little guy I often work with separately. He likes this sequence:

Monday we pull out the new card and read it together. We discuss the basics and tie it back to anything else we have done (I used Homer and Greek Mythology as my example before so I will again). We had read Black Ships for the Trojan War card so I could say "Homer is who is believed to have written the original Iliad." for example. The next day we might read some greek myths, discuss some of the gods characteristics, their symbols they are known for, maybe look at pics of ancient vases and try to identify the gods based on symbols, play a round of "Zeus on the Loose" then Wednesday we would review. Maybe do some copywork. We would also be reading "Tales from the Odyssey." We would add it to our timeline, discuss other events we might know during that time period in other parts of the world. We would look at and mark a map. Maybe trace Odysseus' travel path. We would end the week with one fun activity. Just something I come up with..

could be big or small but he remembers things based on that deeper learning. 

For him he just gets bogged down in details. He can absolutely recall an enormous amount of timeline events and give me the main gist of it when we do history like this. For DD and other DS they like details. This sounds harder than it actually is. We do history about 4 days per week but only for 20 to 30 min on average give or take. 

 

[PeterPan]

20 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

... are using some of Story of Civilization now in the car and as interesting as it is, it's too much. Too much detail. Too much forest/trees/some other metaphor that would make sense with more sleep and caffeine, lol. 

My DD complains she doesn't remember any of it, not that I was telling her that she should, but she wants to. She is more concrete in many ways. She LIKES workbooks. She likes feeling "smart" when she learns and remembers. So as much as this all seems fun, it's not the right fit. 

Definitely it's good to change. She sounds sorta Perfect Paula, if you like Cathy Duffy's way of clumping learners, so that might give you some more ideas, by looking at what Duffy recommends for them. Also, I guess my question would be to look into *why* she's not remembering anything. What happens if she listens with headphones so there's no background noise from the car? Is she visualizing? There might be some clues there on something to work on (attention, APD, needing to working on visualizing for comprehension, whatever). 

3rd grade is still pretty young. Had you thought about doing a state study? There are nice state study guides for that age, and they can be kind of cut and paste, workbooky, nice for a dyslexic. The MP redaction of Guerber's american history text, which I think they market for 4th, is good. Just might be better waited on, given where she is now. Rainbow will sell workbooks for state study, but also just your typical vendors like Evan Moor, Carson Dellosa, whatever will have them. My ds does really well with structure, so I use them a lot.

[CAtoVA]

I print only what I need for Core Knowledge and that's all in b & w. The flip books and pictures (slides) in the anthologies I show on my lap top as I read the stories that go along with them. Never had to print anything in color is my point. It cost some in toner and paper but it's been minimal.

[almondbutterandjelly]

History 3 for Young Catholics looks pretty cute.  It's a story and a workbook all in one.  It's at Seton Books.  It's got a little color but not too much.

[Jackie]

We’ve chosen to go the completely opposite route. We’re unschooling science and history/social studies for elementary. The topics covered and depth we do them are all chosen by my daughter. She enjoys these subjects and asks to learn about particular topics.

[MinivanMom]

My kids could never do audio books. They needed pictures to look at. We have done 2 year loops of world history followed by 2 year loops of American history (because my kids are all spaced exactly 2 years apart - everyone could start at the beginning of a loop). We used Usborne Book of World History and The Smithsonian Children's Encyclopedia of American History as our spines, because there were lots and lots of pictures. Then I added in addition history picture books on topics of interest and read-alouds (many with illustrations). My kids just couldn't comprehend without the visual.

We didn't do any workbooks, but they narrated the history orally and kept timelines.

[ktgrok]

4 hours ago, perkybunch said:

History 3 for Young Catholics looks pretty cute.  It's a story and a workbook all in one.  It's at Seton Books.  It's got a little color but not too much.

It's an option, we used their younger American History book last year, but they are a bit too "yay America...we only do good things" for me. I might use it in addition to something else though! We do like Catholic Textbook Project, but they don't have anything for this age. 

2 hours ago, Jackie said:

We’ve chosen to go the completely opposite route. We’re unschooling science and history/social studies for elementary. The topics covered and depth we do them are all chosen by my daughter. She enjoys these subjects and asks to learn about particular topics.

We do unschooled science, or rather I outsource it to things like PBS, lol. 

24 minutes ago, MinivanMom said:

My kids could never do audio books. They needed pictures to look at. We have done 2 year loops of world history followed by 2 year loops of American history (because my kids are all spaced exactly 2 years apart - everyone could start at the beginning of a loop). We used Usborne Book of World History and The Smithsonian Children's Encyclopedia of American History as our spines, because there were lots and lots of pictures. Then I added in addition history picture books on topics of interest and read-alouds (many with illustrations). My kids just couldn't comprehend without the visual.

We didn't do any workbooks, but they narrated the history orally and kept timelines.

That's about the schedule I'd like, Sonlight uses it as well. 

[Bluegoat]

I'll just throw this out there - I've gravitated away from a world history or even a Eurocentric world history approach for elementary.  One of the reasons is it began to feel a little too broad to connect the dots.  I think most kids remember history, learn it if you like, as a kind of narrative.  But books like SOTW or even CHOW are too broad to really have a narrative - they are more episodic.  Like an old Star Trek episode - you might remember some incidents, but it is difficult to remember them in any detail in order because they don't connect - each is a separate story.  The things you do remember are the ones that form an overarching story - like how Worf's character develops over the course of the series.

I've found by having a narrower focus, maybe on a country or region, there is much more of a narrative arc, at least if you find some good resources.  The past while I've been doing British (mostly English) history and then Canadian history for the upper elementary years.

[ktgrok]

25 minutes ago, Bluegoat said:

I'll just throw this out there - I've gravitated away from a world history or even a Eurocentric world history approach for elementary.  One of the reasons is it began to feel a little too broad to connect the dots.  I think most kids remember history, learn it if you like, as a kind of narrative.  But books like SOTW or even CHOW are too broad to really have a narrative - they are more episodic.  Like an old Star Trek episode - you might remember some incidents, but it is difficult to remember them in any detail in order because they don't connect - each is a separate story.  The things you do remember are the ones that form an overarching story - like how Worf's character develops over the course of the series.

I've found by having a narrower focus, maybe on a country or region, there is much more of a narrative arc, at least if you find some good resources.  The past while I've been doing British (mostly English) history and then Canadian history for the upper elementary years.

I think you have hit the nail on the head. It is to episodic. 

[WoolC]

We've done SOTW 1 and 2 and CHOW and enjoyed it, but I definitely looked at it as exposure.  This year we've been doing MP Simply Classical 3 American History package and my boys have gotten a lot out of it.  We cover one biography over one to two weeks and the SC Writing book 2 reinforces the main idea from history for the week.  The weekly recitations often relate to the history readings as well.  My kids have comprehended and retained so much this year in history.  We plan to continue with MP's history cycle.

[ktgrok]

1 hour ago, WoolC said:

We've done SOTW 1 and 2 and CHOW and enjoyed it, but I definitely looked at it as exposure.  This year we've been doing MP Simply Classical 3 American History package and my boys have gotten a lot out of it.  We cover one biography over one to two weeks and the SC Writing book 2 reinforces the main idea from history for the week.  The weekly recitations often relate to the history readings as well.  My kids have comprehended and retained so much this year in history.  We plan to continue with MP's history cycle.

This is great to hear. Simply Classical 3 American history is exactly what we are looking at. 

[Holly]

We are following a multi-stream history cycle.  We are using Biblioplan/SOTW for American/World history 3 days per week--we may end up just using years 3-4 over 2 years, but I'm still working this out.  We are currently on Year 3, so I have some time to decide.  We are also using MP's classical studies for our ancient history stream.  I'm actually slotting this during out literature time, since I feel it is a mix of history & literature.  We also are reading through the Bible as well as some Bible/Church history for our third history stream.  This is done at bedtime.

I totally see what BlueGoat is saying!  I think that is exactly what has bothered me about home school history programs from the beginning.  There is just so much to cover and I want to cover it all...which is impossible.  BP/SOTW is not a perfect fit for us, but I like that I can adjust each week as I see fit.  It does include optional textbooks and worksheets, so you may want to take a look.  My kids aren't fans of literature based programs, which is a big chunk of what's out there for homeschoolers!  They do like MP.

[LMD]

We just meander through, I agree that it's exposure. They will forget, there will be gaps, but there is still value in exploring the content. 

I've never managed to do the 4 year cycle... my dd is in 7th and we've made it to the 1600s lol.