Larry Nassar

[Rosie_0801]

Exactly. Why do people refuse to question or protest against “experts” or people in authority?

 

The cult of the expert is a very strong social taboo and there are severe punishments for breaking it.

The legal system has to rely on the appeal to authority fallacy because they don't have time to do otherwise.

[LMD]

I'll get a little personal too -

 

When I went with a friend to support her while she made her report, we were warned by another woman that maybe I shouldn't go, because it would strain our friendship for me to hear about it (I had already heard the whole story)

I thought that woman was nuts, what are friends for?

 

At the police station, the female officers didn't want me there to support her. I stayed anyway, careful not to influence anything.

 

And when they found her rapist, he didn't explicitly confess (he said 'yeah sorry about that') so he wasn't charged.

 

They never caught the guy who assaulted me either. In fact, I know lots of assault victims, I know a small few who had some voice (along with a lot of stupid comments) I know none who got justice. Not. One.

 

When only about 6 rapists in 1000 see a day in prison, when women are silenced and shamed everyday about sexual assault, darn right I'll celebrate a judge who both gave victims a voice and gave them justice!

[swimmermom3]

Exactly. Why do people refuse to question or protest against “experts†or people in authority?

 

I can only speak to my experience with swimming. Our second year on club, my dd made an elite squad. At Christmas break, there were daily doubles. Two weeks of working six days a week with two 3 hour sessions per day. But during the mid day break, the swimmers were required  to go home, run a couple of miles and do x number of crunches and push ups. My dd was dry heaving by the side of the track. I asked my good friend who had been in swimming for years with kids who had national cuts and later attending the Olympic trials, if this was okay. "Yes, this is what it takes." However, near the end of the break, another mom with nearly as good of swim credentials commented on how much weight my dd had lost and said, "Lisa, you understand that how this team trains is wrong, damaging?" She took her two swimmers with national cuts and left the team shortly after that.

 

We stayed in swimming seven more years.  I eventually went from lacking confidence in my understanding of how the sport works to "Screw this bs!" But it took a long time, too long. I can't count the number of swimmers I know who will experience chronic pain for the rest of their lives, including my son, even if I use all my digits. Over this Christmas break, Sailor Dude talked about his "what ifs?" Namely, what if his shoulder hadn't given out. It about broke my heart. He truly loved the sport, and sometimes still forgets that leaving swimming opened some new doors.

 

I think it's important as sports parents to remember that the "experts" have their own motives, their own agendas. Your child's well-being isn't at the top of their list. That's your job.

[ktgrok]

I think the way we get more women to speak up is to first believe and support the few that DO report it. Only when the culture supports these women will others feel safe enough to report. Because as it is now, chances are reporting will have zero benefits and lots of negative consequences. Change that equation, and women will report. 

[swimmermom3]

Have any of you watched the 3rd season of Broadchurch? The crime is a sexual assault and I think they did such an extremely good job of portraying how complex the decision to report or not is. It was better than anything I've ever seen on the subject.

 

It doesn't help that administering (?) the rape kits is sometimes done by inexperienced people who like to pass along their own thoughts as to the victim's responsibility. The process is awful and the labs are backlogged. That seems like it should be something we can change.

[LMD]

I think the way we get more women to speak up is to first believe and support the few that DO report it. Only when the culture supports these women will others feel safe enough to report. Because as it is now, chances are reporting will have zero benefits and lots of negative consequences. Change that equation, and women will report.

And if the criminals are actually charged/convicted. At the moment, why would any woman report? Odds are you'll not be believed, have your name smeared, be retraumatised repeatedly and the rapist will face no consequences.

 

This society condones rape. We pretend we don't, we offer bs platitudes, but by and large men face no consequences for raping at will. That's part of rape culture.

[swimmermom3]

Wise words from Judge Aquilina:

 

"Inaction is an action. Silence is indifference. Justice requires action and a voice. And that is what has happened here in this court."

 

"Leave your pain here and go out and do your magnificent things."

 

"The voices of the survivors have asked everyone: ‘Report. Keep your voice up.'... One in 10 children will be sexually abused by their 18th birthday. One in 7 girls, 1 in 25 boys by their 18th birthday. That means that in the United States, 400,000 babies born in the U.S. will become victims of child sexual abuse. It stops now. Speak out like these survivors, become part of the army.â€

 

Thank you for sharing this.

[swimmermom3]

I think the way we get more women to speak up is to first believe and support the few that DO report it. Only when the culture supports these women will others feel safe enough to report. Because as it is now, chances are reporting will have zero benefits and lots of negative consequences. Change that equation, and women will report. 

 

Personally, if feel as though I have heard far more women deny the sexual abuse of other women, then I have heard men do.

 

What is the payout (there has to be one) for women to do so? If we deny the experiences of other women, does it keep us safer?  I really struggle with this one. 

[ktgrok]

Personally, if feel as though I have heard far more women deny the sexual abuse of other women, then I have heard men do.

 

What is the payout (there has to be one) for women to do so? If we deny the experiences of other women, does it keep us safer?  I really struggle with this one. 

 

I think it may make women FEEL safer? That it isn't as common as it is? Because the reality is TERRIFYING. How do I let my girls grow up and move out knowing that they will probably be assaulted. Not maybe, but probably. EVERY women I've talked to about sexual assault has been assaulted. Actually, almost every woman I've talked to about this, that I know well enough to get personal with, has been raped. Almost ALL! That's terrifying for me as my daughters grow up. So yeah, I could see someone denying it just to try to save their own sanity. 

 

Or, some deny it because admitting it means admitting what happened to them wasn't okay. And they don't want to admit to being a victim. 

[gardenmom5]

And if the criminals are actually charged/convicted. At the moment, why would any woman report? Odds are you'll not be believed, have your name smeared, be retraumatised repeatedly and the rapist will face no consequences.

 

This society condones rape. We pretend we don't, we offer bs platitudes, but by and large men face no consequences for raping at will. That's part of rape culture.

 

you know - this has given me another thought about an attidue women need to change among themselves.

 

I recall several years ago a thread about dress standards/etc.  (I'm not going where you think.)

I shared a time I was attractively (and modestly) dressed - and an older man raked over me with his eyes as I descended a wide staircase at the venue I was attending. It made me really uncomfortable and creeped out.

 

THIS IS WHAT NEEDS TO CHANGE -

there were liberal women on this forum, who implied/directly said I had an issue and *I* needed to chill out.   they implied/stated, it was because I have hang ups about my body and I belong to a religions with  conservative dress standards. (though not as conservative in dress as some).

Uh, no.  talk about shaming the victim . . . the guy who thinks it's ok to leer at a woman is the problem.

[Aura]

I feel like we need a #notthem movement of people to stand up and say that I'm going to do everything in my power to make sure the next generation does not have this entrenched sexual assualt and rape culture to contend with. (It's bad enough there's #metoo, I want to make sure it's #notthem.)

 

Is there anything specific you think you'll do as a result of all this? Beyond using as an educational tool or talking point with your kids. (Maybe we need a new thread, I'm open to that.) There is something specific I'm thinking of doing. I don't want to go into detail. It doesn't involve reporting anyone or anything; I just don't feel comfortable giving out details, so I'm not asking for details from anyone else, either. Just wondering if anyone else has a specific action they're planning or considering.

[Sandwalker]

We need to tell our daughters, especially the ones in uni, to #watchoutforeachother .

[swimmermom3]

it's so frustrating - because there are women who file fake reports.  (crystal magnum is probably the most infamous of the fake reporters - duke lacrosse. or the rolling stone - where even the writer had a history of filing fake stories.)

they aren't held accountable - but they need to be, because they DO *hurt* every single woman who really was assaulted!

 

I am sorry, but this thought, this argument against doing more to prevent assaults, is part of our rape culture.

 

We can name the handful of times a woman has filed a false report. Can we name the hundreds of thousands of people of have been sexually assaulted?  It's the same thinking that goes with gun violence in this country. Meanwhile we sit on our hands, tut-tut about "the tragedy" and the number of victims keeps growing exponentially.

 

What this argument says all over again, is that one man's life, career, is worth more than any number of women.

 

Think about the scale with Nassar.  Nassar > 200 young women  

 

That is a powerfully ugly truth that gets played out every day in this country.

[gardenmom5]

I am sorry, but this thought, this argument against doing more to prevent assaults, is part of our rape culture.

 

We can name the handful of times a woman has filed a false report. Can we name the hundreds of thousands of people of have been sexually assaulted?  It's the same thinking that goes with gun violence in this country. Meanwhile we sit on our hands, tut-tut about "the tragedy" and the number of victims keeps growing exponentially.

 

What this argument says all over again, is that one man's life, career, is worth more than any number of women.

 

Think about the scale with Nassar.  Nassar > 200 young women  

 

That is a powerfully ugly truth that gets played out every day in this country.

 

I've been sexually assaulted.  in. my. own. home. by. a. stranger.   never caught.  in addition to having been molested when I was four, and my brother's friend who tried to groom me.

 

I can still be utterly disgusted by women who file fake reports because it does hurt other women.  defenders of actual assailants point at those cases and use them to undermine legitimate cases.  

 

eta: and when I had my deallngs with the police - you want to know who was most skeptical and treated me with disrespect?  the female cop.

Edited January 27, 2018 by gardenmom5

[LMD]

you know - this has given me another thought about an attidue women need to change among themselves.

 

I recall several years ago a thread about dress standards/etc. (I'm not going where you think.)

I shared a time I was attractively (and modestly) dressed - and an older man raked over me with his eyes as I descended a wide staircase at the venue I was attending. It made me really uncomfortable and creeped out.

 

THIS IS WHAT NEEDS TO CHANGE -

there were liberal women on this forum, who implied/directly said I had an issue and *I* needed to chill out. they implied/stated, it was because I have hang ups about my body and I belong to a religions with conservative dress standards. (though not as conservative in dress as some).

Uh, no. talk about shaming the victim . . . the guy who thinks it's ok to leer at a woman is the problem.

I agree.

 

I also like the 'don't be that guy' style of ad. Because the good guys just don't see it. And they have trouble believing it - because they know it's outrageous. My dh was shocked when a creepy old dude aggressively leered at his 11 year old daughter. Dh's first thought was that this guy must be mentally not all there. But he soon realised that no, it's a creepy guy. It took dh physically standing between them and staring him down to make it stop. Dh thought that it was a weird, quaint, unusual situation - until he saw how upset I was. This is all.the.time. for women and girls. Especially for young ones.

 

We ignore it and take it as a compliment and take safety precautions and swallow our anxiety meds because what else can we do? Admit that we live in a war zone?

[gardenmom5]

I agree.

 

I also like the 'don't be that guy' style of ad. Because the good guys just don't see it. And they have trouble believing it - because they know it's outrageous. My dh was shocked when a creepy old dude aggressively leered at his 11 year old daughter. Dh's first thought was that this guy must be mentally not all there. But he soon realised that no, it's a creepy guy. It took dh physically standing between them and staring him down to make it stop. Dh thought that it was a weird, quaint, unusual situation - until he saw how upset I was. This is all.the.time. for women and girls. Especially for young ones.

 

this.  it is so far from dh's consciousness - he knows it happens, but can't understand why.  because deep inside, he does consider women as equals.   men who abuse women - don't.

 

eta: and when I'm outspoken - the men (usually on comment boards) who make comments about my dh being pussywhipped - because I'm outspoken!  .. . that's another attitude that shows deep disrespect towards women.

Edited January 27, 2018 by gardenmom5

[Aura]

I agree.

 

I also like the 'don't be that guy' style of ad. Because the good guys just don't see it. And they have trouble believing it - because they know it's outrageous. My dh was shocked when a creepy old dude aggressively leered at his 11 year old daughter. Dh's first thought was that this guy must be mentally not all there. But he soon realised that no, it's a creepy guy. It took dh physically standing between them and staring him down to make it stop. Dh thought that it was a weird, quaint, unusual situation - until he saw how upset I was. This is all.the.time. for women and girls. Especially for young ones.

 

We ignore it and take it as a compliment and take safety precautions and swallow our anxiety meds because what else can we do? Admit that we live in a war zone?

 

It took multiple conversations with my dh to get him to see that I'm not exaggerating. The tipping point for him was pointing out that every. one. of his nieces had been touched inappropriately, at minimum, by an adult male before they turned 18. Some have had worse done to them.

[Miss Peregrine]

I was 6 when I ran through the apartment complex my mom told me not to on my walk home from school. Two older boys grabbed me and held me. One of them put his hand over my mouth and the other started lifting my dress. Screaming while muffled like that was terrifying. I broke free and ran home. I told my mom about it and she said, "I told you not to go that way!"

 

I always want to believe my daughter's and take them seriously. I'm sorry for any of you who were not believed.

[LMD]

I'm sorry Miss Peregrine. Both about the boys and your mom. I bet the boys parents would have written it off as harmless playing too.

 

 

One thing we did was always back up our daughter to do what she needed to feel safe and comfortable. For example, she spent years at youth group refusing to sit in the circle and instead hid behind the whiteboard. She was shy and circle time felt like 'everyone stare at each other' time to her. I talked to the leaders multiple times and we agreed that they could invite her to join in, but they must respect her no. Eventually she joined in. I had to be that parent and be okay with my child acting weird. It was worth it. Stuff like that shows that I will listen, support and help.

I make manymanymany parenting mistakes, but I am still so glad we handled it that way.

[Lostinabook]

It would be helpful if every school were required to report any accusations of criminal behavior to the local or state police AND if universities and other organizations had to have independent investigators scrutinize their programs' responses to reports of assault. This whole "oh, we can police our own" is just garbage. As far as I can tell, people in charge care about $$$ and power and will actively suppress anything or anyone that threatens either.

[swimmermom3]

I've been sexually assaulted.  in. my. own. home. by. a. stranger.   never caught.  in addition to having been molested when I was four, and my brother's friend who tried to groom me.

 

I can still be utterly disgusted by women who file fake reports because it does hurt other women.  defenders of actual assailants point at those cases and use them to undermine legitimate cases.  

 

eta: and when I had my deallngs with the police - you want to know who was most skeptical and treated me with disrespect?  the female cop.

 

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:  Kristen, I am truly sorry for your experiences and I can believe that a female cop would be disrespectful.

 

I understand that women who file fake reports do hurt other women. I also know that the number of false reports is minuscule  in comparison to the number of women and men who are assaulted.

 

However, on just this board alone, I can't count the number of times that women have used this argument as an excuse to propose doing NOTHING  except wear a gunny sack and don't leave your fortress home.

 

Many women (also sexual assault survivors) read that as "We must let thousands of women be sexually assaulted in order to spare one man."

[Lostinabook]

 I had to be that parent and be okay with my child acting weird. It was worth it. Stuff like that shows that I will listen, support and help.

I make manymanymany parenting mistakes, but I am still so glad we handled it that way.

 

My kid is NOT a pleaser at.all. And that was so so so embarrassing when she was little, but letting her be "rude" and not forcing her to be "nice" has had a huge payoff as she's gotten older. She's starting to sand off some of the rough edges on her own now, but she still has zero issues with confrontation, and I really appreciate and celebrate that about her.

[Lostinabook]

An independent investigation into MSU. Finally: https://www.indystar.com/story/news/nation-now/2018/01/27/special-prosecutor-probe-systemic-issues-sexual-misconduct-michigan-state/1072105001/

 

Another article about Rachael Denhollander and what it took for her to start the avalanche that took down Nassar: https://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2018/01/27/rachael-denhollander-was-loudest-bravest-voice-against-larry-nassar/6eNEjp9C3aAKVO2VUqTutO/story.html

 

"It introduced the world to that empowered female army, whose members took the stand day after day after day to bring down Nassar, who finally made the world hear what officials for 20-plus years ignored, obfuscated, and ridiculed, thus allowing Nassar to continue unchecked."

 

"But it is a societal story too, because of the systematic dismissal of so many claims of abuse, because so many girls and young women were ignored, assumed they were at fault for being too sensitive or too suspicious. It’s a lesson to all of us in the dangers of selective outrage, forcing us to analyze why the Jerry Sandusky abuse case at Penn State drew immediate attention in a way this case never did, why it is so easy to dismiss girls, exploiting their vulnerabilities and silencing their voices."

[swimmermom3]

I agree.

 

I also like the 'don't be that guy' style of ad. Because the good guys just don't see it. And they have trouble believing it - because they know it's outrageous. My dh was shocked when a creepy old dude aggressively leered at his 11 year old daughter. Dh's first thought was that this guy must be mentally not all there. But he soon realised that no, it's a creepy guy. It took dh physically standing between them and staring him down to make it stop. Dh thought that it was a weird, quaint, unusual situation - until he saw how upset I was. This is all.the.time. for women and girls. Especially for young ones.

 

We ignore it and take it as a compliment and take safety precautions and swallow our anxiety meds because what else can we do? Admit that we live in a war zone?

 

 

this.  it is so far from dh's consciousness - he knows it happens, but can't understand why.  because deep inside, he does consider women as equals.   men who abuse women - don't.

 

eta: and when I'm outspoken - the men (usually on comment boards) who make comments about my dh being pussywhipped - because I'm outspoken!  .. . that's another attitude that shows deep disrespect towards women.

 

 

You both have given me a lot to think about with this point. I'll have to ask my dh and my oldest son when they get home.

 

I do know that shortly after the MeToo movement started, I walked into our bedroom and my husband was in tears. He shared posts of several female friends that he had attended high school and university with who had posted their stories. We had just had dinner with three of them when we visited our son at college. My dh asked, "Does it really happen this often? Seriously?"  "Yeah baby, unfortunately it does."

 

So my next question is, do our good guys do enough on their own to stop jerky behavior. Do our spouses and partners speak up when jokes that are demeaning to women are told at the office party? Do our sons tell their drunk friends to quit hassling the group of girls at the bar who are obviously annoyed.

 

You are all probably sick of hearing about this, but my anger at the Vanderbilt rape case has not subsided. Why didn't the football players who passed the naked victim unconscious in the hallway, who had obviously been assaulted, get her medical help and then go...uh, go find their asshole friends and...help them see the error of their ways?

 

I do believe that "good men" could take "good actions" and make a significant  reduction in sexual assault.

[swimmermom3]

I'm sorry Miss Peregrine. Both about the boys and your mom. I bet the boys parents would have written it off as harmless playing too.

 

 

One thing we did was always back up our daughter to do what she needed to feel safe and comfortable. For example, she spent years at youth group refusing to sit in the circle and instead hid behind the whiteboard. She was shy and circle time felt like 'everyone stare at each other' time to her. I talked to the leaders multiple times and we agreed that they could invite her to join in, but they must respect her no. Eventually she joined in. I had to be that parent and be okay with my child acting weird. It was worth it. Stuff like that shows that I will listen, support and help.

I make manymanymany parenting mistakes, but I am still so glad we handled it that way.

 

This makes me think about parents who require children to hug and kiss people they obviously don't want to hug and kiss. We've mad a lot of parenting mistakes too, but I never required a child to have unwanted physical contact.

[gardenmom5]

It would be helpful if every school were required to report any accusations of criminal behavior to the local or state police AND if universities and other organizations had to have independent investigators scrutinize their programs' responses to reports of assault. This whole "oh, we can police our own" is just garbage. As far as I can tell, people in charge care about $$$ and power and will actively suppress anything or anyone that threatens either.

 

makes me wonder - what exactly is the mandatory reporter supposed to report?  and to whom?  are there legal consequences for them NOT reporting?  (there should be)

and yeah - if my daughter's had been assaulted at college - you can bet your bootie I'd have told them to call the cops - and NOT campus police!

 

My kid is NOT a pleaser at.all. And that was so so so embarrassing when she was little, but letting her be "rude" and not forcing her to be "nice" has had a huge payoff as she's gotten older. She's starting to sand off some of the rough edges on her own now, but she still has zero issues with confrontation, and I really appreciate and celebrate that about her.

 

I think this is so important.   we were raised to "be nice to grandma", go give grandma a kiss hello, and a kiss goodbye and do whatever else she wants.   as an adult - I realize that was grooming and left me more susceptible to some things I endured as a child/teen.

 my dh was the first one I ever told about my molestation - becasue as a child I felt that my mother either wouldn't believe me, or even if she did, nothing would change.  looking back- nothing would have changed.  she always just wished problems would go away so she wouldn't have to deal with them.   she was weak.  the molestation (which despite only happening once) - had far more lasting negative impact upon me even than the assault.

[gardenmom5]

This makes me think about parents who require children to hug and kiss people they obviously don't want to hug and kiss. We've mad a lot of parenting mistakes too, but I never required a child to have unwanted physical contact.

 

good for you.  no requirements, i'm hesitant to even make a suggestion they do.     go say hello - is completely different.

[solascriptura]

I've been sexually assaulted.  in. my. own. home. by. a. stranger.   never caught.  in addition to having been molested when I was four, and my brother's friend who tried to groom me.

 

I can still be utterly disgusted by women who file fake reports because it does hurt other women.  defenders of actual assailants point at those cases and use them to undermine legitimate cases.  

 

eta: and when I had my deallngs with the police - you want to know who was most skeptical and treated me with disrespect?  the female cop.

I am so so sorry.

[solascriptura]

I was 6 when I ran through the apartment complex my mom told me not to on my walk home from school. Two older boys grabbed me and held me. One of them put his hand over my mouth and the other started lifting my dress. Screaming while muffled like that was terrifying. I broke free and ran home. I told my mom about it and she said, "I told you not to go that way!"

 

I always want to believe my daughter's and take them seriously. I'm sorry for any of you who were not believed.

I'm so sorry.  That must have been so scary.

[gardenmom5]

 

So my next question is, do our good guys do enough on their own to stop jerky behavior. Do our spouses and partners speak up when jokes that are demeaning to women are told at the office party? Do our sons tell their drunk friends to quit hassling the group of girls at the bar who are obviously annoyed.

 

another thing to think about - how much do good men associate with jerky guys?   they  might be forced to at work -but socially no, why would they?  what things would they have in common?  (I think of the actor reading off the names of actresses nominated for some award - and his comment - congratulations, you don't have to be alone in a room with HW.  - he was livid when he learned his tv wife was one of hw's victims.)

 

but yes- guys need to speak up too, also without fear of retribution being considered "less than a man", or "pussywhipped".  no - real men really do believe women have equal value to them and treat them respectfully because that's who they are.   those that don't - aren't "real" men.

 

eta:

 

Why didn't the football players who passed the naked victim unconscious in the hallway, who had obviously been assaulted, get her medical help and then go...uh, go find their asshole friends and...help them see the error of their ways? 

 

fear of social stigma against them.

 

and there are good guys who do stuff.  eg: the guys who physically held down brock turner while waiting for the cops.  they'd caught him in the act of r@ping an unconscious woman behind the dumpster - and they got mad.  (including at the judge who basically let him off.)

Edited January 27, 2018 by gardenmom5

[swimmermom3]

another thing to think about - how much do good men associate with jerky guys?   they  might be forced to at work -but socially no, why would they?  what things would they have in common?  (I think of the actor reading off the names of actresses nominated for some award - and his comment - congratulations, you don't have to be alone in a room with HW.  - he was livid when he learned his tv wife was one of hw's victims.)

 

but yes- guys need to speak up too, also without fear of retribution being considered "less than a man", or "pussywhipped".  no - real men really do believe women have equal value to them and treat them respectfully because that's who they are.   those that don't - aren't "real" men.

 

I think the answer would be, more than you know. It might even be, more than the "good guy" realizes.  

 

My dad's a pretty decent guy, but one evening after dinner out at a restaurant where he was making stupid comments to the waitress, I told him, "You know, Dad, I've been cocktail waitress. Do you really want me to tell you what she was thinking about your comments coming from an old, bald, pot-bellied guy?"  "Let's just say she didn't think you were cute."

 

Thankfully, he was only pissed off at me for about a day.

[gardenmom5]

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:  Kristen, I am truly sorry for your experiences and I can believe that a female cop would be disrespectful.

 

I understand that women who file fake reports do hurt other women. I also know that the number of false reports is minuscule  in comparison to the number of women and men who are assaulted.

 

However, on just this board alone, I can't count the number of times that women have used this argument as an excuse to propose doing NOTHING  except wear a gunny sack and don't leave your fortress home.

 

Many women (also sexual assault survivors) read that as "We must let thousands of women be sexually assaulted in order to spare one man."

 

except those women who made false accusations were believed,  their cases investigated, then stories fall apart (sometimes spectacularly) and the alleged perpetrators released.   then they do nothing about the women claiming they've been "traumatized".  uh - that needs to change.

 

investigations are good - not holding someone accountable who has made false reports, . . not so much.

 

I have sons- I don't want them falsely accused anymore than I'd want my daughters to be assaulted and not believed.

[gardenmom5]

I think the answer would be, more than you know. It might even be, more than the "good guy" realizes.  

 

My dad's a pretty decent guy, but one evening after dinner out at a restaurant where he was making stupid comments to the waitress, I told him, "You know, Dad, I've been cocktail waitress. Do you really want me to tell you what she was thinking about your comments coming from an old, bald, pot-bellied guy?"  "Let's just say she didn't think you were cute."

 

Thankfully, he was only pissed off at me for about a day.

 

I can believe this.

[swimmermom3]

ESPN investigation into Michigan State's sexual assault scandal alleges cover-ups and cases that include football and basketball programs

 

One of my "favorite" stories in here is the former Michigan basketball player and assistant coach who slugged a female student so hard he knocked her off a bar stool.  Apparently, she and a group of girl friends were commemorating the loss of a friend in an accident when Big Man decided to crash their party. The student asked him to give them a minute. He was outraged and asked her if she knew who he was. She told him to eff off, so he slugged her. Twice I think. There were a bunch of witnesses and he still got off with a littering charge and he got to keep his job. I guess we could give Michigan points because they did fire him later over a sexual assault.

 

These universities deserve having their sports programs shut down for a while until they can get their acts together and change their culture.

[gardenmom5]

I don't know why I thought of this - but I think it is related to an attitude that feeds the "s3xual conquest" attitudes.

Mary k letourneau is a local case.  her student was 12 years old. no one could deny anything happened - because she got pregnant and the boy is a different race than her husband - so she couldn't have pretended it was his.

  there were a lot of people who thought it wasn't a big deal - becasue the student was a boy.  (if you read the updates - his life is messed up.)

I was especially disturbed by a local male radio host  who didn't think it was a big deal at all, that any boy would be high fiveing in the locker room over sleeping with a teacher.

I do think that attitude - is part of what drives the dismissal of allegations brought by young women.  'boys will be boys', and "what boy wouldn't want to?"

[gardenmom5]

ESPN investigation into Michigan State's sexual assault scandal alleges cover-ups and cases that include football and basketball programs

 

One of my "favorite" stories in here is the former Michigan basketball player and assistant coach who slugged a female student so hard he knocked her off a bar stool.  Apparently, she and a group of girl friends were commemorating the loss of a friend in an accident when Big Man decided to crash their party. The student asked him to give them a minute. He was outraged and asked her if she knew who he was. She told him to eff off, so he slugged her. Twice I think. There were a bunch of witnesses and he still got off with a littering charge and he got to keep his job. I guess we could give Michigan points because they did fire him later over a sexual assault.

 

These universities deserve having their sports programs shut down for a while until they can get their acts together and change their culture.

 

 

 

and people wonder why there's a problem with the behavior of professional athletes . . .

 

too little too late for me for msu.

 

[ktgrok]

I tend to think that the bad guys don't act like bad guys around the good guys. Because although they know they can brush off allegations made by a woman, they also know that if there is a man who witnesses it and reports it THAT might be believed. So they feel other guys out, and if they think they might report them for bad behavior they don't do it in front of them. 

[Sk8ermaiden]

I personally feel that we should look at how many years it's been since an assault was first reported and covered up (it was 1997 at MSU, right?) and so Larry Nassar went on doing what he was doing for 20 more years. I would love to see them go 20 years without being able to compete NCAA sports. Yes it's super harsh, but it might just send a message. Obviously these universities need the threat of some serious consequences to make them care. 

 

There also, CLEARLY needs to be some universal database of SA reports. MSU and USAG both employed Nasser, and both investigated Nassar, and neither told the other. Nasser was STILL working at MSU for a long time AFTER USAG reported him to the FBI for suspected child molestation.How unacceptable is that?!? Around the gymnastics internet, I have also heard so many stories that go: Child and parent bring a complaint of assault or molestation, or grooming to the owner of a gym. The owner asks if they would like to go on record or file charges. Child and parent say no. The owner fires the coach. He immediately moves cities or states and gets a job at a new gym. This repeats and repeats and repeats until SOMEONE actually files charges. Investigations show coach has been doing it for years or decades. 

Maybe some teeth in the mandated reporter laws would help with that. Are coaches mandated reporters in all states? 

Edited January 28, 2018 by Sk8ermaiden

[ktgrok]

except those women who made false accusations were believed,  their cases investigated, then stories fall apart (sometimes spectacularly) and the alleged perpetrators released.   then they do nothing about the women claiming they've been "traumatized".  uh - that needs to change.

 

investigations are good - not holding someone accountable who has made false reports, . . not so much.

 

I have sons- I don't want them falsely accused anymore than I'd want my daughters to be assaulted and not believed.

 

Your sons are about as likely to be false accused of rape as they are to be falsely accused of robbing someone. I bet you don't worry about that though. Because falsely accusing someone  of robbery is rare...about at rare as falsely accusing someone of rape. 

[solascriptura]

I think the answer would be, more than you know. It might even be, more than the "good guy" realizes.  

 

My dad's a pretty decent guy, but one evening after dinner out at a restaurant where he was making stupid comments to the waitress, I told him, "You know, Dad, I've been cocktail waitress. Do you really want me to tell you what she was thinking about your comments coming from an old, bald, pot-bellied guy?"  "Let's just say she didn't think you were cute."

 

Thankfully, he was only pissed off at me for about a day.

 

I probably would have added, "would you like it if someone said that to your daughter or granddaughter?"  

[Garga]

I feel like we need a #notthem movement of people to stand up and say that I'm going to do everything in my power to make sure the next generation does not have this entrenched sexual assualt and rape culture to contend with. (It's bad enough there's #metoo, I want to make sure it's #notthem.)

 

 

 

Looks like #notthem is a thing, but I think #notyou would be more catchy.

 

#metoo #notyou

 

And #notyou sounds more fierce than #notthem.  "Them" is a group over there somewhere.  "You" are right in front of me and I'm going to protect you.

 

But I guess it's not up to me since it looks like #notthem is already a thing.

[PinkyandtheBrains.]

I probably would have added, "would you like it if someone said that to your daughter or granddaughter?"

Except, that is one more part of the issue. It shouldn’t require being someone’s relative to be treated with respect.

[PinkyandtheBrains.]

 

 

Nassar is a pedophile.

Sandusky is a pedophile.

 

Why are the reputations of their respective sports programs more important than the well being of children?

[swimmermom3]

except those women who made false accusations were believed,  their cases investigated, then stories fall apart (sometimes spectacularly) and the alleged perpetrators released.   then they do nothing about the women claiming they've been "traumatized".  uh - that needs to change.

 

investigations are good - not holding someone accountable who has made false reports, . . not so much.

 

I have sons- I don't want them falsely accused anymore than I'd want my daughters to be assaulted and not believed.

 

I disagree. I have one daughter and two sons. It is statistically far more likely that my dd will be assaulted than either of my sons will be falsely accused of sexual assault. 

 

Think about the fact that we already don't believe something like 90% of rape victims. The stories where false accusations are made and believed are few and far between. I believe they can be charged with filing a false report. The rates are estimated at anywhere between 2% and 9%. Let's even go with 10%. So with 1000 reported rapes, 100 men are falsely accused. Given the number of men who are actually sentenced for sexual assault, maybe, just maybe, 20 of them will face jail time. You are still looking at 900 women who were sexually assaulted.

 

When we shift the focus of sexual assault to saving the men, this is what it looks like:

 

100 men > 900 women

 

Is that really what you want? I know ideally, we don't want anyone "innocent" caught up in a false accusation. In fact, we seem far more comfortable with the idea of 900 women being raped. That seems to be acceptable. If it is, how can we ever change the rape culture?

 

If we don't believe 90% of the women who come forward and we have really tough laws about false accusations, how many women would come forward? You've made it even more difficult than it is now, which is virtually impossible.

[LMD]

Except, that is one more part of the issue. It shouldn’t require being someone’s relative to be treated with respect.

Yep. You treat them with respect because they are full humans in their own right, not because they are subsidiaries of a male person.

[gardenmom5]

Your sons are about as likely to be false accused of rape as they are to be falsely accused of robbing someone. I bet you don't worry about that though. Because falsely accusing someone  of robbery is rare...about at rare as falsely accusing someone of rape. 

 

one of my son's had an absolute whackadoodle for a girlfriend.  she was n.u.t.s - so yes, I DID fear something like that happening.   seriously - she was trouble.

 

eta: maybe this is why my feelings on this subject are so strong - it realistically could have happened to my son.

I was so relived when he broke up with her.

Edited January 28, 2018 by gardenmom5

[LMD]

I disagree. I have one daughter and two sons. It is statistically far more likely that my dd will be assaulted than either of my sons will be falsely accused of sexual assault.

 

Think about the fact that we already don't believe something like 90% of rape victims. The stories where false accusations are made and believed are few and far between. I believe they can be charged with filing a false report. The rates are estimated at anywhere between 2% and 9%. Let's even go with 10%. So with 1000 reported rapes, 100 men are falsely accused. Given the number of men who are actually sentenced for sexual assault, maybe, just maybe, 20 of them will face jail time. You are still looking at 900 women who were sexually assaulted.

 

When we shift the focus of sexual assault to saving the men, this is what it looks like:

 

100 men > 900 women

 

Is that really what you want? I know ideally, we don't want anyone "innocent" caught up in a false accusation. In fact, we seem far more comfortable with the idea of 900 women being raped. That seems to be acceptable. If it is, how can we ever change the rape culture?

 

If we don't believe 90% of the women who come forward and we have really tough laws about false accusations, how many women would come forward? You've made it even more difficult than it is now, which is virtually impossible.

I agree, except I'll quibble with your numbers. ☺

 

The statistics say that out of every 1000 sexual assaults, only 11 will be referred to prosecution and only 6 will see a day in prison.

 

If up to 10% are false, then statistically a maximum of 0.6 of falsely accused are likely to see a day in prison and 1.1 to be referred for prosecution.

 

So really we're talking about 1 man > 900 victims.

[gardenmom5]

I agree, except I'll quibble with your numbers. ☺

 

The statistics say that out of every 1000 sexual assaults, only 11 will be referred to prosecution and only 6 will see a day in prison.

 

If up to 10% are false, then statistically a maximum of 0.6 of falsely accused are likely to see a day in prison and 1.1 to be referred for prosecution.

 

So really we're talking about 1 man > 900 victims.

 

are they counting per woman?  or per incident?  some of us have had multiple incidents - by multiple perps.  so, do I count as one?  or three?  (three different perps)

[swimmermom3]

I personally feel that we should look at how many years it's been since an assault was first reported and covered up (it was 1997 at MSU, right?) and so Larry Nassar went on doing what he was doing for 20 more years. I would love to see them go 20 years without being able to compete NCAA sports. Yes it's super harsh, but it might just send a message. Obviously these universities need the threat of some serious consequences to make them care. 

 

There also, CLEARLY needs to be some universal database of SA reports. MSU and USAG both employed Nasser, and both investigated Nassar, and neither told the other. Nasser was STILL working at MSU for a long time AFTER USAG reported him to the FBI for suspected child molestation.How unacceptable is that?!? Around the gymnastics internet, I have also heard so many stories that go: Child and parent bring a complaint of assault or molestation, or grooming to the owner of a gym. The owner asks if they would like to go on record or file charges. Child and parent say no. The owner fires the coach. He immediately moves cities or states and gets a job at a new gym. This repeats and repeats and repeats until SOMEONE actually files charges. Investigations show coach has been doing it for years or decades. 

 

Maybe some teeth in the mandated reporter laws would help with that. Are coaches mandated reporters in all states? 

 

But what about all the innocent athletes?  (You know, the 16 foortball players at MSU that have been charged with sexual assault.)  What about all the innocent fans?  What about the innocent townspeople? 

 

What about all the innocent men?

 

What about all the innocent gun owners?

 

At this point, throw hands up in the air because nothing can be done ever. EVER. EVER. (By the way, I love the idea of the punishment lasting as long as the neglect did.)

 

Because apparently hundreds of thousands of sexual assault victims, and tens of thousands of gun violence victims were never innocent? 

 

I like the idea of a SA data base, but could it ever be used against the victims? Hacked? Details spread over the internet?

 

What you've described about gymnastics applies to the swim world too. There was a local coach, you know, one of the Swim Gods, who would talk to his young female swimmers with his finger hooked in the bottom of their swimsuit in public. The excuse was he was just an old school coach. It took people filming him at a swim meet to get him gone. His employers had just passed him along.

Edited January 28, 2018 by swimmermom3

[LMD]

are they counting per woman? or per incident? some of us have had multiple incidents - by multiple perps. so, do I count as one? or three? (three different perps)

They're counting incidents, I think.