My McJudgy obnoxious observation and question

[LMD]

There are two separate things going on. Why is it that every time someone states the fact that false rape accusations occur, it is always countered with "but rapes occur more! But men are more vile than women!" What does that have to do with the false accusations? A false accusation of sexual misconduct can devastate every aspect of a man's life. He doesn't deserve this just because he has the same body parts as most rapists have. It's a separate problem, and there is no logical reason to compare it to a completely different problem.

You are the one bringing up the false accusations trope every time we try to discuss rape culture.

[SKL]

Why this competition between double standards?  Can't both bad things be bad?

[SKL]

You are the one bringing up the false accusations trope every time we try to discuss rape culture.

 

Actually I did not bring it up, I am just responding to people declaring that men never suffer from either true or false rape accusations, and also that if you only parented your sons right, there would be no false accusations.

[LMD]

Because the false accusations line is trotted out every.single.time to distract from the issue of who, statistically, is doing the raping.

 

It undermines and harms actual individual victims because it adds to the culture that firstly doesn't believe them and secondly, assigns the victim responsibility for their own oppression.

[SKL]

And this is way off topic, but I wonder what % of false rape accusations start with a guy saying "no" to sex or other intimacy / relationship.

 

Is our society into punishing men who say no?

[SKL]

Because the false accusations line is trotted out every.single.time to distract from the issue of who, statistically, is doing the raping.

 

It undermines and harms actual individual victims because it adds to the culture that firstly doesn't believe them and secondly, assigns the victim responsibility for their own oppression.

 

Well I've been on both sides of this reality and neither side is good.  The people talking in hyperbole about rape e.g. "men never suffer the consequences of a rape accusation" are the reason people bring up the other side.  If that takes away from the rape victims, then talk to the people who can't talk rationally about rape.

 

[LMD]

Who has said that "men never suffer the consequences of a rape accusation"?

 

Your last sentence is breathtakingly nasty.

[SKL]

For LMD, at least one example in this thread:

 

...

 

But don't worry, those who are concerned about boys being unjustly locked up for rape....most women never report being raped, and even if they do the likilhood of a conviction is miniscule. Our sons could be serial rapists and probably never face a single penalty for it. 

 

This kind of comment does not deserve to be ignored by people whose loved ones have been falsely accused of rape.

 

If that makes me nasty then so be it.  A devastating false accusation is likely to make a person nasty.

[Pen]

{I have nothing else to say about the other accusations here. This is a reasonable question I will reply to.}

 

A few things are different with my kids' school because it is a private, Christian school. The school itself has dressing guidelines for dances, though they are not excessively stringent. They also bend them in some cases when the styles make it difficult to find any dress that complies; when dd was a student there, they began to allow srapless dresses "as long as it fits well enough that you don't have to keep pulling on it." Undergarments cannot be visible in any "normal" position.

 

We did always shop for dresses with plenty of time cushion. In one case, my mother and I sewed her dress. In two cases, we bought second-hand dresses; once at a resale dress boutique and another through Ebay. The majority of her dance dresses were ordered from Modcloth; they have a wide variety of different looks, including vintage or unusual styles. Oh, and I altered two different dresses; once, myself, once by a seamstress (for Senior Prom - this was the Ebay dress.)

 

Our homecoming is not until January, so I can't yet say what the young women will wear and I don't know what DS' gf will wear (assuming they are still a couple then). But I like that the school has guidelines like they do.

 

I should also add that, while it is true that a lot of the dresses at public school homecomings are super short, they are not all super short. I did also see photos of pretty dresses that were short, but not super short. IOW, nobody is wearing a long gown, no, but some are a couple inches above the knees while some are at the top of the thigh.

 

 

My ds's school has 3 HoCo's (fall, winter, spring) yearly plus Senior Prom.  The above makes me glad I'm not trying to outfit girls!

 

 

Oh, and I forgot to say, designers will make what we will buy. So if people refuse to buy certain styles, they will correct and stop making that style.

 

That's true.  If enough people all refuse, it can change things.

[jewellsmommy]

Why this competition between double standards?  Can't both bad things be bad?

 

Of course both are bad. One is just a bigger problem than the other. That doesn't mean that one is less bad.

 

From my quick search, I see studies citing false reports of rape at 2% to 10%. So, 90% to 98% of rapes that actually get reported are legitimate/founded etc. And then there are the unreported rapes as well. So, people are focusing on the 90% problem.

 

Even the few false reports, as documented,  do not make it all the way through the investigative process to the court proceedings. So amongst the minority few of false reports, even fewer make it court. Does it affect these men, of course. 

 

It comes across in these conversations, though, like someone who is pitching a fit over the herd of dust-bunnies under the couch while standing in a mound of trash in the middle of the living room floor. No one wants a herd of dust-bunnies, but can we focus on the bigger problem first? Especially since that trash has been rotting there, relatively ignored, for a looong time. 

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Of course both are bad. One is just a bigger problem than the other. That doesn't mean that one is less bad.

 

From my quick search, I see studies citing false reports of rape at 2% to 10%. So, 90% to 98% of rapes that actually get reported are legitimate/founded etc. And then there are the unreported rapes as well. So, people are focusing on the 90% problem.

 

Even the few false reports, as documented,  do not make it all the way through the investigative process to the court proceedings. So amongst the minority few of false reports, even fewer make it court. Does it affect these men, of course. 

 

It comes across in these conversations, though, like someone who is pitching a fit over the herd of dust-bunnies under the couch while standing in a mound of trash in the middle of the living room floor. No one wants a herd of dust-bunnies, but can we focus on the bigger problem first? Especially since that trash has been rotting there, relatively ignored, for a looong time. 

 

^^^This.

 

There are also false allegations of child sexual abuse, but the appropriate response to those is not to assume every kid who says they were abused is lying.

[bolt.]

This has nothing to do with clothes but rather about boys/men being accused of rape.

It's rather surprising, isn't it, that your post that has "nothing to do with clothes" which is instead entirely "about boys and men being accused of rape" somehow randomly turned up on a thread dedicated to discussing clothing, fashion, style and teen formal wear.

 

How confusing.

 

It's almost as if you are suggesting a close connection between skirt length that some teenage girls prefer and the malicious way some young men are accused of crimes against women that they did not commit.

 

I'm not seeing how we might dress might for homecoming could be connected to how likely we are to use criminal accusations maliciously. Could you explain it to me?

[SKL]

^^^This.

 

There are also false allegations of child sexual abuse, but the appropriate response to those is not to assume every kid who says they were abused is lying.

 

And nobody advocated that.

[SKL]

 

It comes across in these conversations, though, like someone who is pitching a fit over the herd of dust-bunnies under the couch while standing in a mound of trash in the middle of the living room floor. No one wants a herd of dust-bunnies, but can we focus on the bigger problem first? Especially since that trash has been rotting there, relatively ignored, for a looong time. 

 

 

 

The choice of how you (general you) choose to read what others say is on you.  I'm not in any way saying that false accusations are a problem of greater magnitude in the US than rape.  I believe the opposite and have said so more than once.  However, I chose not to let a false and insensitive statement stand.  You can make as big or as small a deal of that as you want.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

And nobody advocated that.

 

 

So why is it when rape is discussed one of the first things brought up is the concern about false accusations?

[SKL]

It's rather surprising, isn't it, that your post that has "nothing to do with clothes" which is instead entirely "about boys and men being accused of rape" somehow randomly turned up on a thread dedicated to discussing clothing, fashion, style and teen formal wear.

 

How confusing.

 

It's almost as if you are suggesting a close connection between skirt length that some teenage girls prefer and the malicious way some young men are accused of crimes against women that they did not commit.

 

I'm not seeing how we might dress might for homecoming could be connected to how likely we are to use criminal accusations maliciously. Could you explain it to me?

 

She was adding to a rabbit trail, as her intro clearly indicates.

 

Actually the rape angle itself was also a rabbit trail.

 

[SKL]

So why is it when rape is discussed one of the first things brought up is the concern about false accusations?

 

It isn't.

 

[jewellsmommy]

The choice of how you (general you) choose to read what others say is on you.  I'm not in any way saying that false accusations are a problem of greater magnitude in the US than rape.  I believe the opposite and have said so more than once.  However, I chose not to let a false and insensitive statement stand.  You can make as big or as small a deal of that as you want.

 

I was not suggesting that you said that false accusations are of greater magnitude. I am responding as to why more attention is being given to one problem over the other, and why, therefore, some posters have angst over the dust bunnies being mentioned in the thread about the same old rotting trash that we can't seem to get rid of.

 

Yet again, a thread about the popular hemlines of the season quickly led to a connection with assault. So that was being discussed. The response to that became the, "well men have to worry about false accusations" line (which I have seen come up in this same discussion before. One does not negate the other. Yet, the false accusation narrative arrives 400ish posts into the discussion of rape culture and (lack of) connections to hemlines of homecoming dresses. 

 

Can you not see why some may see this as a mis-direct?

[SKL]

I was not suggesting that you said that false accusations are of greater magnitude. I am responding as to why more attention is being given to one problem over the other, and why, therefore, some posters have angst over the dust bunnies being mentioned in the thread about the same old rotting trash that we can't seem to get rid of.

 

Yet again, a thread about the popular hemlines of the season quickly led to a connection with assault. So that was being discussed. The response to that became the, "well men have to worry about false accusations" line (which I have seen come up in this same discussion before. One does not negate the other. Yet, the false accusation narrative arrives 400ish posts into the discussion of rape culture and (lack of) connections to hemlines of homecoming dresses. 

 

Can you not see why some may see this as a mis-direct?

 

If you are honest, you must acknowledge that I commented a number of times about the hemline issue without comment about false rape accusations.  I had no interest in making this thread about false accusations.  However I felt a need to respond to an extreme false and insensitive comment rather than let it feed the "we encourage rape without consequences" strand.

[jewellsmommy]

She was adding to a rabbit trail, as her intro clearly indicates.

 

Actually the rape angle itself was also a rabbit trail.

 

 

Sadly, it wasn't. The op, as well intentioned as she was, made the connection that a certain type of dress can influence assault. Note: She wasn't saying that the blame is on the victim. The conflict is in the fact that by suggesting any connection at all (ie: that you can potentially lower your odds of assault by how you dress etc.) one is contributing to the problem and that makes dealing with assaults harder etc. ...now how that leads to the tiny amt. of innocent men being the victims of liars...well I can't help you there.

[jewellsmommy]

If you are honest, you must acknowledge that I commented a number of times about the hemline issue without comment about false rape accusations.  I had no interest in making this thread about false accusations.  However I felt a need to respond to an extreme false and insensitive comment rather than let it feed the "we encourage rape without consequences" strand.

 

Understood. Yes you did comment on the main topic several times. I don't think that one post you reference was suggesting that men aren't ever harmed. It was about the opposite, on how many guilty men get away with it. No one in their right mind believes that innocent people aren't ever hurt when lies are told about them. They are and this too goes both ways. Men can be falsely accused of rape and women get falsely accused of being sluts when they are actually raped. Women aren't in danger of jail from that lie, but they suffer other, very real, consequences. The men fear jail, and their reputation suffers (as do women's) but the reality is that the fear of jail does not usually materialize and the men are not charged or are acquitted at trial. The statistics bear out that men being jailed over false rape accusations is just not a widely experienced problem in this decade. It just isn't. The system, thankfully, mitigates their pain as much as possible. But it does not for women of sexual assault. The system is still skewed. This conversation is about why and what can we as a society do about it?

 

I see that this hits home for you. Someone you love was accused falsely. Sorry that happened. That is real pain. No one has actually argued otherwise. There may have been an emotionally motivated mis-step of words, but no arguments have been systematically laid out against men never suffering harm from lies...just how often it happens.

 

This thread being about the vastly large number of women who are harmed physically, psychologically, and socially deserves attention all its own without having to share attention with another, separate, problem is what, I think, most of these women here are feeling.

Edited October 24, 2017 by jewellsmommy

[SKL]

Well I said a number of times that I don't think the rape possibility is a major consideration in the conversation on short dresses at a teen dance.

 

I think people are having a hard time articulating the concern that seems to lead to a rape connection.  Some people have come pretty close.  The fashion industry contributes greatly to the sexual objectification of females.  Sexual objectification of females is a problem that feeds other problems.  Is rape one of those problems fed by sexual objectification?  I think this is not an easy question.  My minimal understanding of the mind of a rapist is that rape (excluding statutory rape) is not an act of sex, but an act of violence that intends to hit the victim where it hurts the most.  I think this is why clothes are not relevant statistically.  But does it also mean that sexual objectification is also not relevant to rape?  Or, could it actually have an inverse relationship, i.e., if purity (for lack of a better word) is not treated as a precious jewel, will sexual violence hold less interest for the sadistic mind of a rapist?  I really don't know.  Probably there is more than one answer, because rapists are not all the same.

[wonderchica]

Admittedly stepping into murky waters here, but really? To all that she wrote, that's the only comment? There IS a double standard, and women ARE as capable of abuse, of lying, of twisting things. Assault is wrong. Full stop. I don't think anyone is really arguing that. But while we're telling our girls all the ways to protect themselves from assault, should we not also be telling them to respect the personhood of the young men around them? Not in a "You're responsible for the purity of their thoughts" kind of crazy, but just as Janeway said. No double standard. Teach our daughters that no means no. Teach our sons to keep an eye out for predators and be a help to change the culture. Teach ALL the kids growing up and launching into the world that assault is wrong, full stop. It's about men not raping women, yes. It's also about PEOPLE not dominating PEOPLE. Putting the entire onus on the men doesn't address the whole scope of the problem, nor does it really solve it.

 

Said by a woman assaulted by another woman.

I completely agree with you. I'm at work and don't have time for a long response. I was trying to get clarification about which cases she was talking about. I figured other posters with more time would cover the truly important points.

[jewellsmommy]

Well I said a number of times that I don't think the rape possibility is a major consideration in the conversation on short dresses at a teen dance.

 

I think people are having a hard time articulating the concern that seems to lead to a rape connection.  Some people have come pretty close.  The fashion industry contributes greatly to the sexual objectification of females.  Sexual objectification of females is a problem that feeds other problems.  Is rape one of those problems fed by sexual objectification?  I think this is not an easy question.  My minimal understanding of the mind of a rapist is that rape (excluding statutory rape) is not an act of sex, but an act of violence that intends to hit the victim where it hurts the most.  I think this is why clothes are not relevant statistically.  But does it also mean that sexual objectification is also not relevant to rape?  Or, could it actually have an inverse relationship, i.e., if purity (for lack of a better word) is not treated as a precious jewel, will sexual violence hold less interest for the sadistic mind of a rapist?  I really don't know.  Probably there is more than one answer, because rapists are not all the same.

 

I do think that objectification is a problem and should be part of the conversation when we step back to look at society as a whole. I think that it is one ingredient of a very complex souffle. 

 

The purity thing is a very interesting question, and I do believe that there has been an unintended consequence from the Christian movement and attempts in purity related matters that has moved us in the wrong direction. I was guilty of being sucked up into that years ago.

 

I can very much credit the conversations on these boards as being part of what started opening my eyes as to how some of the beliefs that i was perpetuating were indeed harmful. These were very shallow ideas that had been thrust upon me as part of the conservative culture I have existed in just by virtue of the friends I chose in my early twenties. I never thought them through. It was sort of like having an identity handed to you. "These are all of the values, beliefs, and opinions that come with your identity as a _________ "(fill in the blank with conservative, christian, homeschooler....whatever).

 

Now, I don't know what the heck I am  :confused1: .  In the last 5 years, I have done a complete 180 on my understanding of these matters. I ended up in a position of needing to testify against the husband half of the couple that was our best friend/s of 13ish years. He was also a spiritual leader in our church and worked in my ministry.This couple was a large part of the molding in the above-mentioned identity. The charges were of a sexual nature involving a tween girl in our church and in my ministry! It rocked my world to find out what was going on and all that I had actively ignored and explained away. He was convicted, will be on the registry, but will be out of jail with one year served (on probation). 

 

I bring this up to say that I have seen the system at work. I know what she had to go through just to get her story out. I know how it changed things (even for me as a bystander because our homeschooling community is a small world and I "took sides"). 

 

We have to keep talking so that more women, more moms will be challenged to evaluate their opinions in light of the statistics and will change the narrative for the next generation. I did and I am grateful to have had that opportunity. My husband's understanding has shifted as well, and we actually parent our dd different as a result. 

 

Thank you, forum friends.

[Janeway]

Tony Romo's grandson? Tony Romo's children are elementary aged and younger.

Sorry..last name is Romo...I just do not know sports well.... http://www.dallasobserver.com/news/former-highland-park-student-ryan-romo-is-suing-the-girl-who-accused-him-of-rape-updated-7104849

[Janeway]

False rape claims occur at well under 10% of all rape accusations. Figures seems to range between less than 2% and as high as 7%.

 

That leaves between 93-99% of claims to be founded. Which is an overwhelming majority.

 

Sexual assualt occurs at a 93% male perp rate. Also an overwhelming majority.

 

Long way to say, well said, and yes, you are correct.

Remember that the percent of proven false reports vs the proven rape cases is huge. Only a small percent of reported rape cases are proven to be true. The rest are unknown.

[Janeway]

Ok....according to RAINN website, only about two percent of rape reports made to the police are ever proven true. https://www.rainn.org/statistics/criminal-justice-system

Now you take the 2% of proven true rape reports and compare it to the 2-10% i’ve proven not true reports, you cannot just assume that the 90% unproven either way reports or actually proven to be true proven to be false. This means that statistically you’re either getting just as many false reports that you are getting real reports or statistically you’re getting five times as many false reports as real reports.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Ok....according to RAINN website, only about two percent of rape reports made to the police are ever proven true. https://www.rainn.org/statistics/criminal-justice-system

Now you take the 2% of proven true rape reports and compare it to the 2-10% i’ve proven not true reports, you cannot just assume that the 90% unproven either way reports or actually proven to be true proven to be false. This means that statistically you’re either getting just as many false reports that you are getting real reports or statistically you’re getting five times as many false reports as real reports.

 

Can you point out the data that says "proven to be true"?  I can't find it on that link.

 

Also, 619 out of 1000 robberies are reported to the police.  167 of those lead to an arrest.  Do you assume the robberies that did not lead to an arrest were false reports?

Edited October 24, 2017 by ChocolateReignRemix

[jewellsmommy]

Ok....according to RAINN website, only about two percent of rape reports made to the police are ever proven true. https://www.rainn.org/statistics/criminal-justice-system

Now you take the 2% of proven true rape reports and compare it to the 2-10% i’ve proven not true reports, you cannot just assume that the 90% unproven either way reports or actually proven to be true proven to be false. This means that statistically you’re either getting just as many false reports that you are getting real reports or statistically you’re getting five times as many false reports as real reports.

 

https://www.nsvrc.org/sites/default/files/Publications_NSVRC_Overview_False-Reporting.pdf

 

This study shows the differences. You cannot equate non-prosecutable with false reports. No, false report numbers are not equal to legitimate claims, nor are they 5 times greater.

[jewellsmommy]

Apparently 68% of murders lead to conviction (within the trackable time period). Should we assume that the other 32% of murder victims are just faking it?Because if there wasn't a conviction, then no one actually murdered them.  :huh:

[Corraleno]

Sorry..last name is Romo...I just do not know sports well.... http://www.dallasobserver.com/news/former-highland-park-student-ryan-romo-is-suing-the-girl-who-accused-him-of-rape-updated-7104849

 

Wow, that case is NOT a good illustration of a poor innocent boy being falsely accused of rape! He was 18 or 19, he admits having sex with a drunk 16 yr old in the back seat of his car, but he got off by claiming it was "consensual," that she set him up, and oh by the way she's a slut because she's had sex with other guys. She reported the rape and they did a rape kit, but the creep's lawyer argued that the medical evidence just showed "forceful sex" not rape, and "forceful sex" can be consensual.

 

That case is a perfect example of a predator getting away with assault due to slut-shaming! She was drunk, she wasn't a virgin, therefore she's "unrapeable"????

Edited October 24, 2017 by Corraleno

[SKL]

I know nothing about he statistics about rape reports being proven true or false, but I don't think it's comparable to robbery or murder, because in the case of rape, we know that the vast majority of victims knew the perp.  Therefore if an arrest / conviction did not occur in those cases, what would be the reasons?  Cases where the perp could not be identified or found would be the small minority, so the rest would be what?  Victim recanted or not enough evidence to charge / indict / convict?

Edited October 24, 2017 by SKL

[jewellsmommy]

I know nothing about he statistics about rape reports being proven true or false, but I don't think it's comparable to robbery or murder, because in the case of rape, we know that the vast majority of victims knew the perp.  Therefore if an arrest / conviction did not occur in those cases, what would be the reasons?  Cases where the perp could not be identified or found would be the small minority, so the rest would be what?  Victim recanted or not enough evidence to charge / indict / convict?

 

he said/she said... even having dna doesn't help because the perp claims "consensual." 

 

Our judicial system is set up under the principle that it is better that 10 guilty people go free than one innocent goes to jail. 

[goldberry]

I know nothing about he statistics about rape reports being proven true or false, but I don't think it's comparable to robbery or murder, because in the case of rape, we know that the vast majority of victims knew the perp.  Therefore if an arrest / conviction did not occur in those cases, what would be the reasons?  Cases where the perp could not be identified or found would be the small minority, so the rest would be what?  Victim recanted or not enough evidence to charge / indict / convict?

 

The nature of rape is such that it is easily possible for there to be zero witnesses and little to no evidence.  The reasons why a conviction isn't often reached would seem to be the same reasons women often don't come forward at all.  In the absence of hard physical or witness evidence, you have a he said/she said situation where the woman is likely to be shredded apart on the stand.  Because people often know each other, the defense is more often able to raise a reasonable doubt.  We (as a society) have also accepted that a woman's sexual past is good enough for reasonable doubt.

 

Our judicial standards make it very difficult to prove a rape conviction.  I'm not saying that's all bad, because both sides need to be protected by the standards.  But it does result in a low conviction rate that has nothing to do with whether it happened or didn't happen.  That's specifically why many women don't bother.  It has more to do with the nature of the crime than anything else I think.

 

Janeway's suggestion that there are more purposely false accusations than actual rapes/assaults is ludicrous.

[Corraleno]

I know nothing about he statistics about rape reports being proven true or false, but I don't think it's comparable to robbery or murder, because in the case of rape, we know that the vast majority of victims knew the perp.  Therefore if an arrest / conviction did not occur in those cases, what would be the reasons?  Cases where the perp could not be identified or found would be the small minority, so the rest would be what?  Victim recanted or not enough evidence to charge / indict / convict?

 

There are very rarely witnesses to rape, so it's often "he said, she said." And in many cases what he said seems to be given a great deal more credence than what she said, because no matter what she explicitly says happens, the "fact" that she was wearing a short skirt or had a drink or agreed to go to the guy's house or get in his car are all used as "evidence" that the sex was consensual.

 

In the case Janeway linked, the guy not only admitted having sex with a girl who was both drunk and under the age of consent, but the medical examination showed lacerations and abrasions "consistent with the use of force."  The grand jury still decided not to prosecute him. Apparently the claim of a wealthy local sports star that sex with a drunk underage girl was consensual weighed far more heavily than the girl's statement that he forced himself on her after she repeatedly told him to stop, her mother's statement that the girl was very upset when she came home, and the doctor's statement that there was physical evidence of trauma. 

 

The fact that it wasn't prosecuted isn't proof that it didn't happen, it's just proof of how totally screwed up our system is.

[goldberry]

In the case Janeway linked, the guy not only admitted having sex with a girl who was both drunk and under the age of consent, but the medical examination showed lacerations and abrasions "consistent with the use of force."  The grand jury still decided not to prosecute him. Apparently the claim of a wealthy local sports star that sex with a drunk underage girl was consensual weighed far more heavily than the girl's statement that he forced himself on her after she repeatedly told him to stop, her mother's statement that the girl was very upset when she came home, and the doctor's statement that there was physical evidence of trauma. 

 

Wow. 

[Bluegoat]

I'm reminded of the section of Mere Christianity on modesty. How what is modest in one culture isn't in another...that being topless in Bora Bora or whatever isn't immodest if that is the standard of dress for everyone. If all the girls at the dance are wearing short skirts than no, I doubt boys are inferring much from it. 

 

Did you read the whole chapter?  He isn't denying that modesty is an actual thing - he gives a few different reasons that people push the limits of modesty within their own culture.  And he spends a fair few paragraphs talking about how our culture in particular treats sexuality.

[ErinE]

There are very rarely witnesses to rape, so it's often "he said, she said." And in many cases what he said seems to be given a great deal more credence than what she said, because no matter what she explicitly says happens, the "fact" that she was wearing a short skirt or had a drink or agreed to go to the guy's house or get in his car are all used as "evidence" that the sex was consensual.

 

I know nothing about the case you mentioned so I'm not saying anything about it, but in other cases, if the evidence is only "he said, she said" then the accused is presumed innocent unless proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, which is difficult with only one witness. I think rape is a terrible horrible thing, but I absolutely would not want someone convicted based on one person's testimony with no other evidence.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

I know nothing about he statistics about rape reports being proven true or false, but I don't think it's comparable to robbery or murder, because in the case of rape, we know that the vast majority of victims knew the perp.  Therefore if an arrest / conviction did not occur in those cases, what would be the reasons?  Cases where the perp could not be identified or found would be the small minority, so the rest would be what?  Victim recanted or not enough evidence to charge / indict / convict?

 

Prosecutors sometimes have their own biases and won't prosecute on behalf of women who they think got what they deserved.  Others sometimes don't believe they have enough evidence to successfully prosecute or don't think the victim is sympathetic enough.  There are also some who would like to prosecute but know their judges and jury pools well enough to understand that a conviction is unlikely and they don't want to put the victim through the trial.  Finally, sometimes victims (and their families) decide going through a trial is not worth the expected outcome.

FWIW, when you see child molesters get soft sentences it is often for one, or a combination of, the factors above.

Edited October 25, 2017 by ChocolateReignRemix

[SKL]

 

In the case Janeway linked, the guy not only admitted having sex with a girl who was both drunk and under the age of consent, but the medical examination showed lacerations and abrasions "consistent with the use of force."  The grand jury still decided not to prosecute him. Apparently the claim of a wealthy local sports star that sex with a drunk underage girl was consensual weighed far more heavily than the girl's statement that he forced himself on her after she repeatedly told him to stop, her mother's statement that the girl was very upset when she came home, and the doctor's statement that there was physical evidence of trauma. 

 

The fact that it wasn't prosecuted isn't proof that it didn't happen, it's just proof of how totally screwed up our system is.

 

I think the linked story also indicated that she had sent texts to a friend prior to the encounter that indicated she intended to entrap him.  Just for the benefit of those who did not open the link.  I don't know him or her and I wasn't there, so who knows how much of it is true.

[Corraleno]

I think the linked story also indicated that she had sent texts to a friend prior to the encounter that indicated she intended to entrap him.  Just for the benefit of those who did not open the link.  I don't know him or her and I wasn't there, so who knows how much of it is true.

 

The lawyer's claim that she suggested to her friends she wanted to "hook up" (the lawyer's words) with the guy was one of many many claims in a lawsuit he filed against the girl's family that not only blatantly slut-shamed the girl, but also her mother, based on nothing but hearsay and rumors, all of which were unequivocally denied by the girl and her family. Apparently in Texas, statements made in pleadings are exempt from defamation lawsuits, even if they are completely false, so this allowed the Romo family to totally smear and humiliate the girl's family with impunity.

 

It also served as a warning to other girls who might be thinking of coming forward, since once Ryan was arrested rumors began swirling that she was not his first victim. The pleading the Romo's lawyer filed was described by another lawyer in the area as "douchey, lewd and like someone from Dance Moms wrote it." In fact, it was considered so nasty and inappropriate that a prominent lawyer in the area offered to take the girl's case pro bono; a countersuit was filed and the matter was settled. 

 

The boy's family is extremely wealthy and well-connected. His father is CEO of a restaurant chain and his mother is CFO of a major airline; their annual income is over a million dollars.  In a highly unusual move, the DA allowed the defendant's lawyer to present inadmissible polygraph evidence to the grand jury, while preventing the girl from introducing the medical evidence. Strange. 

 

The Romo family's smear campaign caused the victim to be bullied to the point that she was forced to transfer to another school — and then the baseball coach at the new school chose to tell his entire team about Romo's version of events, so she was bullied at the new school as well. Rich kid ended up playing baseball for Baylor, with no damage to his scholastic or career prospects.

[Scarlett]

Somebody posted that women were more objectified in the Middle East and India. I can't find anything to back that up, and having traveled there, I do not think it is any worse than the US.

 

I did find two interesting articles. The first is just on the objectification of women and girls mainly in the U.S. It's a sobering read. https://www.unicefusa.org/stories/not-object-sexualization-and-exploitation-women-and-girls/30366

 

The second is about the marginalization of women in country music...which is a more recent trend. https://newrepublic.com/article/121946/marginalization-women-mainstream-country-music

These are great articles. Ty for sharing.

[Bluegoat]

And this is way off topic, but I wonder what % of false rape accusations start with a guy saying "no" to sex or other intimacy / relationship.

 

Is our society into punishing men who say no?

 

Some might, but I think there are a fair number that aren't maliciously false - they are made in good faith, but aren't an assault.  I'm not sure that sort of thing is counted as a false accusation though.

 

Largely I think assault and false accusation are separate.  Where they come together is if the legal or social culture around one affect the incidence or approach to the other.

 

At the moment, I thin the cultural approach to casual sex/clubbing culture tends to create all kinds of contradictions that men and women have to respond to in rather scattered, bizarre ways, and which ends up endangering both.  The thing I see as potential solutions, though, don't seem to be very culturally acceptable.

[Bluegoat]

^^^This.

 

There are also false allegations of child sexual abuse, but the appropriate response to those is not to assume every kid who says they were abused is lying.

 

But they know how important it is to be extremely careful about investigating this kind of allegation, if you don't want problems. It's not like false conclusions are only bad for the people involved, they tend to create systemic problems that can be out of proportion to their numbers.

[goldberry]

 I think rape is a terrible horrible thing, but I absolutely would not want someone convicted based on one person's testimony with no other evidence.

 

I agree with you.  But to then draw the conclusion that all those accusations are false, as another poster has done, is hugely inaccurate and ignores the fact that the nature of the crime often makes it difficult to prove in court,  It's the same set of reasons that harm done to children stays hidden so often and for so long. It's hard to prove what goes on behind closed doors.

 

But then you also hear about cases where they ignored medical evidence because the victim was viewed as somehow deserving or responsible, and that is what tells us there is still a problem in the justice system.

 

Also, while I totally agree false accusations happen and hurt those involved, this very thread reveals the core problem of bringing them up every single time rape is discussed. (And yes, that does happen, including my IRL conversations.)  Most of us agree that they exist but are not as prevalent.  But at least one poster has used that as a reasoning that *most* rape/assault accusations are false.  How many others out there are doing the same thing?  How would that make a woman feel if she was assaulted, knowing that half the people out there would assume she was "probably" lying, exaggerating, or just trying to excuse herself?  Because many women already assume that, which is why they don't bother reporting.  

[goldberry]

I'll be honest... if I was assaulted, I would not want to report it unless I had an airtight case.  That's wrong, because it lets predators off the hook.  But why would a woman put herself through that with the odds being what they are?

 

In that sense, society making a bigger deal out of false accusations than they actually *are* by the numbers contributes to that. Especially when people start assuming that every woman who doesn't win in court was lying.

[Bluegoat]

I know nothing about the case you mentioned so I'm not saying anything about it, but in other cases, if the evidence is only "he said, she said" then the accused is presumed innocent unless proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, which is difficult with only one witness. I think rape is a terrible horrible thing, but I absolutely would not want someone convicted based on one person's testimony with no other evidence.

 

It's very tricky.

 

It often seems to come down to who seems more credible.

 

If the girl is perceived as slutty, it might well be the boy who seems credible.

 

If the boy is black, and the girl white, it's probably her.

 

And so on.

 

Then, if they or witnesses were drunk or high, their testimony is worth a lot less.

 

It's hard to see how to get away from these things.

[Bluegoat]

I agree with you.  But to then draw the conclusion that all those accusations are false, as another poster has done, is hugely inaccurate and ignores the fact that the nature of the crime often makes it difficult to prove in court,  It's the same set of reasons that harm done to children stays hidden so often and for so long. It's hard to prove what goes on behind closed doors.

 

But then you also hear about cases where they ignored medical evidence because the victim was viewed as somehow deserving or responsible, and that is what tells us there is still a problem in the justice system.

 

Also, while I totally agree false accusations happen and hurt those involved, this very thread reveals the core problem of bringing them up every single time rape is discussed. (And yes, that does happen, including my IRL conversations.)  Most of us agree that they exist but are not as prevalent.  But at least one poster has used that as a reasoning that *most* rape/assault accusations are false.  How many others out there are doing the same thing?  How would that make a woman feel if she was assaulted, knowing that half the people out there would assume she was "probably" lying, exaggerating, or just trying to excuse herself?  Because many women already assume that, which is why they don't bother reporting.  

 

I think they actually get brought up for totally different reasons than people assume.  

 

Somehow people think the idea is "well, there are false allegations, so it's equal".

 

Usually though I think people are suggesting that false allegations become a problem because of a particular approach or situation, and that specifically is the issue.

 

So - I've seen people say for example that assault victims should be believed as a matter of course, and that police investigations should work on tat basis.  Well, probably people who say that are a bit naive, but the potential there to create a situation that someone could exploit is pretty significant - there are good reasons it doesn't work tat way.  Or the rules you see at some universities - they are just designed to create problems, but you see people at times argue to have them adopted into law.  

[goldberry]

 

 

Usually though I think people are suggesting that false allegations become a problem because of a particular approach or situation, and that specifically is the issue.

 

I don't disagree with that, but do you see the "side-effect" when it is brought up as part of the rape conversation?  You've got some people who really start to believe it IS equal (we've seen that right here, so yes it does happen), on top of sending the message to women that they may as well not even report because no one is going to believe me.  

[Bluegoat]

I don't disagree with that, but do you see the "side-effect" when it is brought up as part of the rape conversation?  You've got some people who really start to believe it IS equal (we've seen that right here, so yes it does happen), on top of sending the message to women that they may as well not even report because no one is going to believe me.  

 

Yeah, I think that can happen with a lot of things.  Not least because people don't always articulate things well.

 

But what's the solution?

 

Not to bring up what is a real problem, or push against it?

 

I think that might have the effect of making it even more visible, both in the denial and the argument that ensues.  And then we've created a kind of polarized set of paradigms where people choose sides.

 

I think a better idea is actually to talk about these things with some level of nuance, and realize that often, many things which are in tension are true at the same time.  Or sometimes, there are interdependencies that mean we will have to accept compromises to the effects we'd like to see.

 

Fighting against an idea often has the perverse effect of giving it energy.