Approved AP course w/o AP exam?

[teachermom2834]

If I chose to enroll my son in an approved AP course (such as PA Homeschoolers) but did not have him take the test, would colleges assume he failed and it would look bad? Is it something to address in a counselor's letter?

 

We do not have access to AP exams locally and I'm not willing to call private schools far away and travel. Honestly, I really don't care that much about the tests or AP credit. But what if I just thought a particular course was the best fit academically (say AP physics if it seems more appropriate than de options)? It would say AP on the transcript but no passing to score to send.

 

I don't expect ds to pursue many competitive colleges but he is a sharp kid and will likely have the ACT scores and transcript to apply to a few highly ranked reach schools. Can he explain somewhere that he didn't have access to the test?

[regentrude]

I would definitely explain this in the counselor letter - like you explained in your post. Seeing AP courses without exams WILL raise the question why.

[maize]

Shouldn't matter in his senior year at least as admissions decisions are made before exams.

[yvonne]

Shouldn't matter in his senior year at least as admissions decisions are made before exams.

 

But wouldn't it matter more in senior year?  If the student's transcript lists an AP course, won't the admissions folks be expecting an AP exam score on the final transcript?  If they notice that there wasn't an AP score, wouldn't they question the listing of an AP course on the transcript?

 

I think in senior year it could still raise questions and would need to be explained from the beginning in the counselor letter as suggested above.

 

 

Edited August 29, 2017 by yvonne

[snowbeltmom]

My kids don't pay to take the AP exams senior year if their college will not grant credit. This has never been an issue

[maize]

But wouldn't it matter more in senior year? If the student's transcript lists an AP course, won't the admissions folks be expecting an AP exam score on the final transcript? If they notice that there wasn't an AP score, wouldn't they question the listing of an AP course on the transcript?

 

I think in senior year it could still raise questions and would need to be explained from the beginning in the counselor letter as suggested above.

AP scores may not even be out by the college final transcript deadline. While AP scores prior to senior year can help validate a homeschool transcript and demonstrate student achievement, they are not a necessary or generally expected part of a transcript. I cannot imagine a university in the US rescinding an offer of admission because of a lack of AP scores on the final transcript. Edited August 29, 2017 by maize

[Caroline]

Kids in public/private schools do this all the time. Lots of students like to take calculus again in college so they don't take the exam. I don't think it will raise any flags.

[Selkie]

If I chose to enroll my son in an approved AP course (such as PA Homeschoolers) but did not have him take the test, would colleges assume he failed and it would look bad? Is it something to address in a counselor's letter?

 

We do not have access to AP exams locally and I'm not willing to call private schools far away and travel. Honestly, I really don't care that much about the tests or AP credit. But what if I just thought a particular course was the best fit academically (say AP physics if it seems more appropriate than de options)? It would say AP on the transcript but no passing to score to send.

 

I don't expect ds to pursue many competitive colleges but he is a sharp kid and will likely have the ACT scores and transcript to apply to a few highly ranked reach schools. Can he explain somewhere that he didn't have access to the test?

 

It wasn't a problem for my ds. We're in a similar situation - we live in a rural area and would have to travel quite a distance to take the exams. My ds took AP courses without taking the exams and he was accepted into several top engineering programs. He didn't offer an explanation and no schools asked about it.

Edited August 29, 2017 by Selkie

[yvonne]

My kids don't pay to take the AP exams senior year if their college will not grant credit. This has never been an issue

 

Do they just take an AP course without the exam?  Or do they not bother with AP courses?

Regardless of whether they take the AP exam, does a student who's taken APs in 10th and 11th pretty much have to take AP courses in 12th?  Would it look like they're slacking off  their senior year if they didn't?

 

 

The whole college application & admissions process can really twist my brain into a knot. I hate when there's no clear answer. Makes it so hard to advise my kids on what to do. When I get some distance, I realize they should just put their time into what they're most interested in. It's so hard to maintain that distance, though.

[OnMyOwn]

I've read on college confidential that AP exam scores don't impact admissions. That it is the grade for the AP class that is considered for admission decisions. I'm not sure if that's true or if it is something that only applies to public schooled kids, but I have wondered about it.

[yvonne]

I've read on college confidential that AP exam scores don't impact admissions. That it is the grade for the AP class that is considered for admission decisions. I'm not sure if that's true or if it is something that only applies to public schooled kids, but I have wondered about it.

 

I can see where the grade for an AP class would be useful if the college weights the high school student's gpa.

 

But, there seem to be so many stories about schools pushing unprepared students into AP classes just to boost their AP class numbers, and those students getting A's in the class, but not doing well on the AP exam. Without a score on the AP exam, how could college admissions folks know how well the student actually mastered the material?

[hopskipjump]

This was never an issue for dd1. There were several AP classes she took that she didn't take the exam for. In our thoughts at the time, she didn't want to get college calc or physics, for instance, because she wanted to take them again in college. She didn't bother with Psychology because, at the time, it wasn't a class she needed for college graduation (she changed majors, incidentally, and DOES need Psych after alll... but she took it last semester and it was one of her very favorite classes!)

 

I believe I made a slight mention of the "discrepancy" in the counselor letter. Simply noting that some AP exams weren't necessary for her to take. No one questioned her transcript. ðŸ‘

[OnMyOwn]

I can see where the grade for an AP class would be useful if the college weights the high school student's gpa.

 

But, there seem to be so many stories about schools pushing unprepared students into AP classes just to boost their AP class numbers, and those students getting A's in the class, but not doing well on the AP exam. Without a score on the AP exam, how could college admissions folks know how well the student actually mastered the material?

I agree, but what I was reading suggested that schools often did not even see the AP scores until after admission. And maybe it's completely incorrect. It's something I saw mentioned a couple of times when I was following a thread in the spring about the release of AP scores. It kind of surprised me to read it, and it made me wonder at the time.

[wapiti]

This question of self-reporting AP exam scores on the Common App applies *only* to AP courses taken junior year or earlier.  Senior year AP exams don't even take place until May, while admissions decisions typically come out in March or months earlier for EA/ED.  From what I have read, no college, not even a super-selective one, is going to rescind admission for a student failing or not taking an AP exam senior year (whereas if the student had a D or F in the course, recision is possible).

 

I have now gone through tons of threads on CC on this common question.  The advice varies as follows:

 

- The exam scores play little to no role whatsoever in admission at most colleges.

- Some super-selective schools will look for the scores after seeing the AP courses listed on the transcript, and in theory, they could be tie breakers between similar applicants (and of course at that level, applicants need any tiny edge they can get), tossing someone in the reject pile if the scores are low or not present.  The types of students admitted to Harvard will typically have all 5's or 4's and 5's.

- But, low scores are unlikely to be the primary reason a student is not admitted.

- And, this may matter only for, or more for, exams in the subject of the prospective major.

- Some have not reported AP exam scores and still been admitted to highly selective schools.

 

- The exam scores can be a boost but not a hindrance.

- Or low scores can hurt more than high scores can help.

 

- The exam scores can indicate grade inflation or poor course quality where the grade is high but the exam score low.

- Or the regional adcom is already familiar with the rigor of the high school in question and can make judgements based on grades.

 

- If a score is not reported, there may be the assumption that the student failed it.

- Or not.  Adcoms don't have time or energy to speculate; it's just a data point that is not there.  (On the low-income as a reason for not taking, I'm not sure how they can be certain which students are low-income, necessarily.)

 

- SAT2s matter much, much more than APs for admission to highly-selective schools.

 

- If the score is 1 or 2, better to not self-report the score on the Common App, even if the speculation is that the student failed.  What to do with a 3 depends on the colleges.

 

A few of the more recent threads, though there are dozens:

http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-admissions/1968369-do-ap-exams-affect-college-admissions.html

http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-admissions/2008325-do-highly-selective-colleges-really-care-about-ap-scores-p1.html

http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-admissions/1991517-taking-the-ap-class-without-the-ap-test-p1.html

 

All these discussions involve B&M students.  For homeschoolers, I imagine that AP exam scores may have much greater importance or at least greater utility.

Edited August 29, 2017 by wapiti

[OnMyOwn]

This question of self-reporting AP exam scores on the Common App applies *only* to AP courses taken junior year or earlier.  Senior year AP exams don't even take place until May, while admissions decisions typically come out in March or months earlier for EA/ED.  From what I have read, no college, not even a super-selective one, is going to rescind admission for a student failing or not taking an AP exam senior year (whereas if the student had a D or F in the course, recision is possible).

 

I have now gone through tons of threads on CC on this common question.  The advice varies as follows:

 

- The exam scores play little to no role whatsoever in admission at most colleges.

- Some super-selective schools will look for the scores after seeing the AP courses listed on the transcript, and in theory, they could be tie breakers between similar applicants (and of course at that level, applicants need any tiny edge they can get), tossing someone in the reject pile if the scores are low or not present.  The types of students admitted to Harvard will typically have all 5's or 4's and 5's.

- But, low scores are unlikely to be the primary reason a student is not admitted.

- And, this may matter only for, or more for, exams in the subject of the prospective major.

- Some have not reported AP exam scores and still been admitted to highly selective schools.

 

- The exam scores can be a boost but not a hindrance.

- Or low scores can hurt more than high scores can help.

 

- The exam scores can indicate grade inflation or poor course quality where the grade is high but the exam score low.

- Or the regional adcom is already familiar with the rigor of the high school in question and can make judgements based on grades.

 

- If a score is not reported, there may be the assumption that the student failed it.

- Or not.  Adcoms don't have time or energy to speculate; it's just a data point that is not there.  (On the low-income as a reason for not taking, I'm not sure how they can be certain which students are low-income, necessarily.)

 

- SAT2s matter much, much more than APs for admission to highly-selective schools.

 

- If the score is 1 or 2, better to not self-report the score on the Common App, even if the speculation is that the student failed.  What to do with a 3 depends on the colleges.

 

A few of the more recent threads, though there are dozens:

http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-admissions/1968369-do-ap-exams-affect-college-admissions.html

http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-admissions/2008325-do-highly-selective-colleges-really-care-about-ap-scores-p1.html

http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-admissions/1991517-taking-the-ap-class-without-the-ap-test-p1.html

 

All these discussions involve B&M students.  For homeschoolers, I imagine that AP exam scores may have much greater importance or at least greater utility.

 

Thanks for writing that all out.  I know we are taking AP exams to validate the grades I am giving my dd, but I can see where it might not be as important for a public schooled student.  The comment you make about the SAT2s possibly mattering much more than APs is interesting.  I was recently looking at foreign language requirement for a university near us and my dd's SAT 2 Latin test score places her in a higher Latin section there than if she gets a 5 on the AP exam this year.  That doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

[yvonne]

Wow, Wapiti, thanks for compiling all that!  I get started reading threads on College Confidential but usually give up soon after, before figuring out what the overall consensus on the question is. That board is scary for me.  After a few minutes there, I usually end up feeling that my kids will never get into any college anywhere ever.

Edited August 29, 2017 by yvonne

[madteaparty]

Wapiti, amazing post. I thank you!

Two follow up if you don't mind? First, I find the SAT2 mattering more that AP hard to believe (not doubting your reporting, just the system). SAT2 are much easier and at least one selective school (albeit an overseas one) specifically states so on their admission for US students page. Seems to be an Atlantic split on this, eh?

Second, can you confirm that it seems you can technically cherry pick (not report at all an AP score?)--I understand you have to explain away the AP class with no score, but wondering solely about mechanics: college board isn't going to volunteer all APs taken, putting them on same score report if you request 3 out of 5, say?

[wapiti]

Wapiti, amazing post. I thank you!

Two follow up if you don't mind? First, I find the SAT2 mattering more that AP hard to believe (not doubting your reporting, just the system). SAT2 are much easier and at least one selective school (albeit an overseas one) specifically states so on their admission for US students page. Seems to be an Atlantic split on this, eh?

Second, can you confirm that it seems you can technically cherry pick (not report at all an AP score?)--I understand you have to explain away the AP class with no score, but wondering solely about mechanics: college board isn't going to volunteer all APs taken, putting them on same score report if you request 3 out of 5, say?

 

I too was surprised when I read that comment about the SAT2.  I suppose it goes back to the purpose of the various tests - AP tests originally were for credit and/or placement.  Senior year AP scores cannot be taken into consideration for admission due to the timing, limiting the available scores to ones from junior year or earlier.  AFAIK there is no college that absolutely requires AP scores be reported or sent, though I don't know which ones might state some sort of recommendation to do so (check college websites; recommended is usually interpreted as required).  In contrast, some super-selective schools very explicitly require SAT2s and/or the "recommendation" (read as "requirement") to provide SAT2s is more explicit.  AFAIK, SAT2s have always been specifically about admission, though recently I read about using a foreign language SAT2 to place out of a college graduation requirement.

 

For US schools, the AP exam scores are self-reported on the Common App, where there would be an opportunity to cherry-pick.  The student has College Board send an official score report during the summer after senior year to the one college they plan on attending.  (N.B., there are also discussions at CC about whether the UCs specifically care or not, as they use their own app.)

 

You might be in a different situation altogether with the UK schools.  They might want an official score report as part of the application package.  I do not know whether the student can choose specific APs to send on the official score report or whether all are sent - I suspect the latter but I really don't know.

 

Disclaimer for lurkers, I'm only reporting what I read on CC, which may not be accurate and colleges will differ.  Nothing can replace thorough parsing of the language on a college's admissions website.

Edited August 30, 2017 by wapiti

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

I think there are two different things accomplished with AP classes.  First, taking AP classes shows the level at which the student is willing to challenge themself academically.  Second, the AP scores can provide a validation of grades or provide college credit. Official AP scores are typically only sent to the school ultimately attended and only if you wish to be granted credit based on those scores.  At that point only the registrar cares what credit is granted but doesn't stop to analyze scores that don't grant credit.  In my experience, admissions folks read the two separately.  Taking the classes show the level of difficulty and challenge the student pursued. A lack of high test scores to self-report will not give you the added "points" for having them; I'm not sure there is an automatic deduction of "points" for a low or absent score.  That said, I think low or absent scores (prior to senior year) might come into play when comparing applicants head to head-a good score vs no score...  

[wapiti]

 That said, I think low or absent scores (prior to senior year) might come into play when comparing applicants head to head-a good score vs no score...  

 

It would be interesting to find out what this looks like, if anyone knows.  I assume this is relevant only for a high level of selectivity, but... how high, top 10-20 only or top-30-ish?  and do the adcoms literally sit there with two or three files open, comparing student A with student B?  just wondering...

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

It would be interesting to find out what this looks like, if anyone knows.  I assume this is relevant only for a high level of selectivity, but... how high, top 10-20 only or top-30-ish?  and do the adcoms literally sit there with two or three files open, comparing student A with student B?  just wondering...

 

I don't know because so much else plays into it...top athlete, student government leader, impressive volunteer record, etc.  I don't think admissions is a one to one set up. I do know there is a lot of assessment of if a student can fit into the campus environment/culture and can they add to it, especially for smaller (not small but not enormous state school either) and more selective schools.

[3andme]

Just a reminder that unlike SAT scores, you can delete AP scores if you wish.  So poor scores could be deleted before an official AP report is sent to the college. Scores of 1 or 2 don't seem to garner any credit but some institutions do give credit for a 3 so I would be hesitant to delete those scores.

 

The conventional wisdom does seem to be that AP scores carry little weight for B&M students but AP classes and grades are weighted heavily in admissions decisions. This kind of annoys me because there is often a big divergence between the two as demonstrated by the AP score distributions. In some courses, almost half of students receive 1s or 2s (less than passing scores) and yet I doubt that half of students are given Ds or Fs for their AP course grade. While I don't think that everything should hinge on one test, I do think there should be better calibration of the school grades vs. actual AP scores. However, maybe the admissions depts already take this into account.

 

 

 

[SunshineMom]

I was talking with my BIL, a high school science teacher, the other day about AP classes and scores. He told me there is a big push for 9th graders to take the Biology AP class when most of the kids haven't even had biology or chemistry. He said the majority of the kids do poorly on the test but it doesn't matter because the school can advertise that they offer the class.

Edited August 30, 2017 by Jewels

[pinkelement]

So, I guess I am learning as I go.

 

We are signed up with AP Psych course with PAH's and I am having a hard time finding a school that would sit my daughter for the AP exam next May. My thinking was that if I won't find a school that would be willing to proctor her (it would most likely be her alone as psych hardly ever taught in high school), it would be OK, she is curious in the subject, that's why she is taking it and she just won't take the exam. I knew it will be a tough call finding a school.

 

But now, with this thread my antennas are up. If the kid takes an AP course in the 9th grade and doesn't take the corresponding exam, that may be interpreted by the college admissions as questionable? It never even occurred to me.

Thank you for bringing this up. Wow.     

[daijobu]

The Common App gives ample opportunity to discuss any issues you have with your student's record.  I think if your dd is enjoying this course and you are unable to locate a place to take the exam, you could include in her application the information you have provided here.  You might even include it in the counselor section as well as in the part completed by the student.  

 

I think the situation you describe would be perceived to be entirely reasonable.  I think you are correct that few high schools offer ap psych, and therefore there would be few locations that would offer the exam, let alone to an outsider.   

Edited September 1, 2017 by daijobu

[3andme]

Pinkelement or others - Just in case you are having trouble finding a site, here are some suggestions:

 

1. Contact your local high school's AP coordinator directly - some high schools will kindly proctor tests for courses they do not offer at the school.
2. Check AP Ledger for all schools in your state (select state and exam code only) who offer the specific exam or enter the names of specific high schools. 
3. Check Total Registration - they are a third party company that handles AP registrations for high schools.
4. Check other private or public schools nearby who might be willing to proctor the exam even if they don't offer it.
5. Check nearby college testing centers to see if they might be willing to proctor the exam.
6. Try posting for suggestions as in last year's AP Annual Commiseration Thread.

Edited September 1, 2017 by 3andme

[pinkelement]

I don't regularly come to this forum and the answers above, daijobu, 3andme, made me realize I need to lurk here more often. I am so grateful to both of your responses and help. Now I have something to work with.

Thank you so much!!!

[Grantmom]

I've read on college confidential that AP exam scores don't impact admissions. That it is the grade for the AP class that is considered for admission decisions. I'm not sure if that's true or if it is something that only applies to public schooled kids, but I have wondered about it.

 

I feel like this might be true for students in a b&m school, but I think that the more selective schools will look at the AP score more for homeschoolers.  I tend to think that homeschoolers probably have their scores taken into account a bit more.

[OnMyOwn]

I feel like this might be true for students in a b&m school, but I think that the more selective schools will look at the AP score more for homeschoolers. I tend to think that homeschoolers probably have their scores taken into account a bit more.

I totally agree that what you say makes perfect sense. We are putting so much emphasis on AP scores, it was just funny to think that they might not even matter for kids in the ps system. And then again, I don't even know if that is really true.

[snowbeltmom]

I totally agree that what you say makes perfect sense. We are putting so much emphasis on AP scores, it was just funny to think that they might not even matter for kids in the ps system. And then again, I don't even know if that is really true.

 

I have my doubts whether that is really true, either.  The colleges ask all students to voluntary report their AP scores.  I don't think they would ask for them to be reported if they didn't consider them when evaluating an application.  I think this would be especially true for the highly selective schools that practice holistic admissions.

 

Imo, AP scores are a great way for an adcom to ascertain whether an unknown school has rampant grade inflation. 

 

[madteaparty]

I have my doubts whether that is really true, either. The colleges ask all students to voluntary report their AP scores. I don't think they would ask for them to be reported if they didn't consider them when evaluating an application. I think this would be especially true for the highly selective schools that practice holistic admissions.

 

Imo, AP scores are a great way for an adcom to ascertain whether an unknown school has rampant grade inflation.

 

I don't think it's true either.APs are one last national yardstick. See for example the German community college class thread . This happens all the time. Edited September 7, 2017 by madteaparty

[myrobostation]

The AP Course Audit is an annual process. The course will be listed as an authorized AP course in a ledger available to colleges and universities each fall and made available to the public via the Web. Districts can help teachers prepare syllabus for submission.

[myrobostation]

The AP Course Audit is an annual process. The course will be listed as an authorized AP course in a ledger available to colleges and universities each fall and made available to the public via the Web. Districts can help teachers prepare syllabus for submission.