If you've ever done a "medium carb" diet...

[Greta]

Could you share your experience?

 

I did very low carb and high fat (as in ketogenic, less than 60g carbs per day) for many years, and I absolutely loved it.  Until I hit perimenopause and then it made my symptoms, especially my chronic migraines, much much worse.  So I stopped counting carbs and started eating bread, rice, potatoes, and fruit again -- though I wasn't counting, I would guess I was getting 200-250g per day of carbs.  It did help with the perimenopause symptoms, but not surprisingly, I also gained a little weight.

 

I am hoping to find a level of carb intake where I can lose some of this weight, but not make the migraines and peri worse again.  So on Monday, I started restricting to 120g per day.  Monday and Tuesday I felt fine, though hungry.  

 

Wednesday (yesterday) a couple of hours after lunch I was hit by a very intense hunger.  It wasn't just psychological, because my stomach hurt.  Not thinking things through like I should have, I just blew it, and at whatever was at hand.  This morning, I am regretting that choice (and the scale is telling me it was the wrong choice!).

 

I know that with low-carb, you often get the "Atkins Flu" that first week:  you feel hungry, fatigued, sluggish until your body makes that switch from burning sugar to burning ketones, and if you aren't supplementing with salt, you can also experience symptoms of hyponatremia (headache, constipation, muscle cramps, etc.)  Since I'm not going down to ketogenic levels, I didn't think there would be any major metabolic shift like that.  

 

So, if you go to moderate but not low levels, does your body still have to make some kind of metabolic shift?  Or was this my body's way of telling me that it either has to have large amounts of carbs or large amounts of fat as fuel, and moderating both isn't going to work?

 

[Alexigail]

I would consider Weight Watchers smart points to be a "medium" or moderate carb diet. It has worked for me as far as controlling hunger and blood sugar goes. You may find that pairing your carbs with protein can help with sudden intense hunger.

[kiana]

Some have bad results with eating about that number of carbs and felt they did better with either far lower or far higher. I did fine on about that level. Most of my carbs at that point were coming from vegetables and dairy. 

 

One thing that I'd recommend whatever you do is having something that you can go to when you're in blow-it-all mode -- something that's not at all calorie dense. When I was first starting to cut weight (having a history of uncontrollable eating) I went for frozen broccoli as a go-to, because at least I was getting nutrition and I could ingest a massive amount without doing more than possibly giving myself indigestion. 

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

Yeah, I think you either need to resign yourself to running on carbs or running on ketones, but straddling the fence is going to leave you feeling constantly on empty.  

 

If you need carbs to feel well hormonally, then one possible option is intermittent fasting.  Intermittent fasting is do-able on any diet, though it is easier on a low-carb diet.  IF gives you a longer window of time where you don't have insulin circulating around, and that signals your body to go into fat tores for fuel.  You can look at Dr. Jason Fung's videos on youtube for more info.

 

Also, perhaps you have passed over some hormonal threshold where you may be successful on a low carb diet again.  Maybe try keto again for a few weeks?

[Greta]

I would consider Weight Watchers smart points to be a "medium" or moderate carb diet. It has worked for me as far as controlling hunger and blood sugar goes. You may find that pairing your carbs with protein can help with sudden intense hunger.

 

 

I've never really looked at Weight Watchers.  Thanks, I'll check them out!

 

 

Some have bad results with eating about that number of carbs and felt they did better with either far lower or far higher. I did fine on about that level. Most of my carbs at that point were coming from vegetables and dairy. 

 

One thing that I'd recommend whatever you do is having something that you can go to when you're in blow-it-all mode -- something that's not at all calorie dense. When I was first starting to cut weight (having a history of uncontrollable eating) I went for frozen broccoli as a go-to, because at least I was getting nutrition and I could ingest a massive amount without doing more than possibly giving myself indigestion. 

 

 

 

That's a good suggestion regarding keeping an "emergency snack" on hand.  I'm afraid that when I'm in that mode, I won't reach for the broccoli!  I'm very impressed that you would do so!  But maybe I can come up with something that would work.

 

I guess I will just have to experiment further to find out if I'm in the group that could do fine with moderate carbs, or if it's going to have to be either LCHF or HCLF.

 

Thank you for your help!

[Greta]

Yeah, I think you either need to resign yourself to running on carbs or running on ketones, but straddling the fence is going to leave you feeling constantly on empty.  

 

If you need carbs to feel well hormonally, then one possible option is intermittent fasting.  Intermittent fasting is do-able on any diet, though it is easier on a low-carb diet.  IF gives you a longer window of time where you don't have insulin circulating around, and that signals your body to go into fat tores for fuel.  You can look at Dr. Jason Fung's videos on youtube for more info.

 

Also, perhaps you have passed over some hormonal threshold where you may be successful on a low carb diet again.  Maybe try keto again for a few weeks?

 

I really like the idea of fasting, and I've read The Obesity Code.  Unfortunately, when I've tried it, it triggered a migraine.   :(  I've been able to skip dinner a few times without having a migraine, but when I've tried skipping breakfast, it was not good.  Skipping dinner more often is something I had considered, but it's hard since that's the one meal every day that the entire family has together.  I'm starting to sound very difficult to please, huh?   :001_smile:

 

I love the idea of being able to do keto again!  It didn't just control my weight, but it had several other health benefits for me as well.  I thought I would try it again once I was through menopause, but that's still an unknown number of years away.  I suppose I could try it again now and see what happens.  If it doesn't go well, I can always add back the carbs.

 

Thank you, Monica!  I appreciate your help.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I eat moderate carbs. I get between 100 and 150g. I always pair carbs with protein. Are you resistant to glucose? That will affect how your body processes carbs.

 

 

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[Soror]

I am in a similar boat, finding a good carb level is like hunting unicorns. I can't do super lc anymore bc thyroid and adrenals but I don't tolerate a ton either. I think around 150-200 is ok for me. I do IF sometimes, delaying b-fast actually works fine for me usually. I often wait until 10 or so to eat. Sometimes it is pretty easy to stay at that level and sometimes, ugh, damn hormones.

[kiana]

That's a good suggestion regarding keeping an "emergency snack" on hand.  I'm afraid that when I'm in that mode, I won't reach for the broccoli!  I'm very impressed that you would do so!  But maybe I can come up with something that would work.

 

The other thing I personally recommend is -- if you have "treat foods" that you're in the habit of eating (especially pre-prepared foods like potato chips where all you need to do is pop them into your mouth), making them at least temporarily less accessible while making the foods you want to eat more of more accessible can go a long way towards changing habits. 

 

If you're in the habit of "I feel peckish -- there are the chips -- open mouth, insert chips", not having the chips around can push you to stop and think about whether you're actually hungry for potato chips, whether you're hungry at all, or whether you're just bored. 

[Carrie12345]

I'm wondering what kinds of carbs you're talking about.  My body reacts one way to white bread, another to whole grain bread, and a whole other to cupcakes.  I personally don't feel it's logical to view them the same, gram for gram.  I'm not saying you do, just trying to point out that any number of grams doesn't give a clear picture.

[Spryte]

Fasting triggers migraines for me, as well, and I've yet to find a way to fast that doesn't.  You're not alone.

 

I wonder also, if you've passed some threshold where keto might work for you again, too?  If it's been years, you might give it a few weeks and try.  

 

I have found that going medium carb doesn't work for me, and my body now doesn't do high carb low fat.  So it's keto for me, which has helped with the migraines.  

 

Whatever works for you, I hope you find it soon.

[Greta]

 Are you resistant to glucose? 

 

 

I believe that I am somewhat insulin-resistant (is that what you mean?) because I have reactive hypoglycemia, and when I gain weight, it all goes to my belly.  But I would probably not be actually diagnosed as insulin-resistant, because my weight/BMI, HA1c, and fasting glucose are all normal.

 

 

 

I want to say more, and respond to other posts as well, but I have someone coming over in a few minutes, so I'll return as soon as I can.  Thank you all!

[Greta]

My guest seems to be running a bit late, so I think I have time to reply now.

 

 

The other thing I personally recommend is -- if you have "treat foods" that you're in the habit of eating (especially pre-prepared foods like potato chips where all you need to do is pop them into your mouth), making them at least temporarily less accessible while making the foods you want to eat more of more accessible can go a long way towards changing habits. 

 

If you're in the habit of "I feel peckish -- there are the chips -- open mouth, insert chips", not having the chips around can push you to stop and think about whether you're actually hungry for potato chips, whether you're hungry at all, or whether you're just bored. 

 

It's definitely not my habit to eat that way.  But there is usually some kind of junk food in the house because my husband and daughter don't follow the same dietary protocols that I do.  Normally I have no trouble avoiding the temptation, but when I get hit by hypoglycemia or by that crazy weird intense painful hunger that I experienced yesterday, I don't exactly make the most rational choices!

 

 

I'm wondering what kinds of carbs you're talking about.  My body reacts one way to white bread, another to whole grain bread, and a whole other to cupcakes.  I personally don't feel it's logical to view them the same, gram for gram.  I'm not saying you do, just trying to point out that any number of grams doesn't give a clear picture.

 

Good question!  I should have explained.  When I went "high carb" I knew I needed to really focus on the quality of those carbs.  So I've been eating only whole grains, potatoes, fruit, and such.  I avoid white flours and anything that is sweetened (meaning everything from the obvious, such as dessert, to the subtle, such as ranch dressing that has added sugar).  I've even been avoiding things like stevia in my tea, because my understanding is that the sweet taste tricks your body into producing insulin, even though there's no calories there.

 

 

Fasting triggers migraines for me, as well, and I've yet to find a way to fast that doesn't.  You're not alone.

 

I wonder also, if you've passed some threshold where keto might work for you again, too?  If it's been years, you might give it a few weeks and try.  

 

I have found that going medium carb doesn't work for me, and my body now doesn't do high carb low fat.  So it's keto for me, which has helped with the migraines.  

 

Whatever works for you, I hope you find it soon.

 

 

Oh, I'm sorry to hear that you have that same problem with fasting and migraines.  It stinks!

 

I did keto for about 12 years, and now I've been high-carb for about one year.  I might give it another try though.  The worst that can happen is that the severity of my migraines goes up again.  So then I'll eat some carbs and be back to where I am right now.  It's not a huge loss in the grand scheme of things.  Probably worth it to know for sure.

[wintermom]

Our bodies need carbs for energy, especially if you are doing regular fairly intense exercise. Try choosing the healthiest options for your carbs so that you are getting the best bang for your buck. So go with high-fibre bread, fruit loaded with vitamins, potatoes with skins, and monitor the amount you eat. Find a balance that keeps your migraine frequency down.

 

Also, stop weighing yourself everyday, or at least stop worrying about a 1 pound gain. Look at the big picture of your overall health, energy and well-being. It's not fun going through life being hungry and worried to eat. Enjoy this journey you are going through to be more fit and feel better.

[Carol in Cal.]

I think that sometimes those hunger migraines are actually thirst migraines.

 

I find that if I get up and drink two cups of coffee with nonfat milk and sugar, and 2-3 cups of water (over about a hour's time), I'm not really hungry until early in the afternoon.  That's not a true fast, but it doesn't involve any chewing, LOL, and it's pretty healthy for me.  Sometimes I put the juice of a lemon or lime into the water, or steep some fresh ginger slices in boiled water until it cools for part of that water intake.  Those are healthy for me, YMMV.

 

I don't get horribly hungry for lunch anymore since I started doing this.  I think that that is because I'm no longer eat a carb heavy breakfast so I don't have the blood sugar drop a few hours later.  So ironically enough, eating less has made me less hungry.  I find this remarkable but very helpful since I'm trying to lose weight.

[wintermom]

I've been eating a medium carb diet my whole life. Some days and seasons I need a lot more carbs, like when I'm training for a marathon. Other times I don't need as much. I try to eat the sugars and simple carbs when I need them for quick energy, such as before/during/ after exercise. I eat complex carbs at larger meals, in combination with fats and proteins. 

 

When my body tells me it's hungry, I feed it. I'll snack on seeds and nuts, fruit, cheese, yogurt, or multi-grain bread and pate. The carb and protein combination tends to keep the hunger at bay longer than just carbs on their own.

[chocolatechip]

Just throwing out a suggestion for a good-quality Omega-3 fish oil. It can help break insulin resistance. I have been pleased with results taking it regularly.

[solascriptura]

Well, I consider my diet medium carb although I've never actually counted the grams out.  I tried a low carb once and I was such a grouch and so exhausted,  I decided to stop for the sake of my family.  It definitely put a cloud over our household.  When I started my medium carb thing, I had the stomach pains that you described!  I don't know if it was for the same reasons, but I definitely had it.  I thought that they were just hunger pains, but it didn't feel like a growling stomach.  I'm going to type out what my food intake looks like for a typical day.  I'll just say that it has given me enough fuel to keep up with my pretty intense workouts and to keep me from biting people's heads off.  haha

 

1 very thin piece of WW toast with PB and a banana

lots of black coffee

 

a very large salad with oil and a good vinegar

about 30 grams of lean protein

an apple

 

another apple or small piece of fruit

 

small portion of a carb (like brown rice)

a ton of sauteed veggies (in a small amount of olive oil)

a bit of soup 

some good protein.

 

 

Best of luck to you!

 

[Greta]

I am in a similar boat, finding a good carb level is like hunting unicorns. I can't do super lc anymore bc thyroid and adrenals but I don't tolerate a ton either. I think around 150-200 is ok for me. I do IF sometimes, delaying b-fast actually works fine for me usually. I often wait until 10 or so to eat. Sometimes it is pretty easy to stay at that level and sometimes, ugh, damn hormones.

 

 

Our bodies need carbs for energy, especially if you are doing regular fairly intense exercise. Try choosing the healthiest options for your carbs so that you are getting the best bang for your buck. So go with high-fibre bread, fruit loaded with vitamins, potatoes with skins, and monitor the amount you eat. Find a balance that keeps your migraine frequency down.

 

Also, stop weighing yourself everyday, or at least stop worrying about a 1 pound gain. Look at the big picture of your overall health, energy and well-being. It's not fun going through life being hungry and worried to eat. Enjoy this journey you are going through to be more fit and feel better.

 

 

 

Thank you both - you brought up two issues I had forgotten about.  I have a family history of hypothyroidism, so I get regular checks.  My thyroid levels were always normal (so of course I didn't get any diagnosis or treatment) but were basically just barely within that normal range when I was keto.  I've had two checks since going high-carb again, and my numbers have improved, and gotten closer to optimal levels.  So keto might not be the best choice for me.

 

Also, I wasn't exercising regularly or intensely when I was keto.  I am now, and that could be harder to do if I went back to keto.  My husband has tried keto several times and always quit because it impacted his workouts so badly.

 

One thing that frustrates me, though:  my cholesterol levels were better when I was on keto!  

[Greta]

Well, I consider my diet medium carb although I've never actually counted the grams out.  I tried a low carb once and I was such a grouch and so exhausted,  I decided to stop for the sake of my family.  It definitely put a cloud over our household.  When I started my medium carb thing, I had the stomach pains that you described!  I don't know if it was for the same reasons, but I definitely had it.  I thought that they were just hunger pains, but it didn't feel like a growling stomach.  I'm going to type out what my food intake looks like for a typical day.  I'll just say that it has given me enough fuel to keep up with my pretty intense workouts and to keep me from biting people's heads off.  haha

 

1 very thin piece of WW toast with PB and a banana

lots of black coffee

 

a very large salad with oil and a good vinegar

about 30 grams of lean protein

an apple

 

another apple or small piece of fruit

 

small portion of a carb (like brown rice)

a ton of sauteed veggies (in a small amount of olive oil)

a bit of soup 

some good protein.

 

 

Best of luck to you!

 

 

Thank you!  That's interesting that you had the same stomach pains.  I take it that it eventually passed?

[SparklyUnicorn]

I've been what I'd call medium for years (and years).  Under 100ish I'd say. 

 

I don't lose weight on that amount (if that is your goal), but I felt fine.  I actually feel better going lower and lose weight.

 

 

[Carrie12345]

 

 

Good question!  I should have explained.  When I went "high carb" I knew I needed to really focus on the quality of those carbs.  So I've been eating only whole grains, potatoes, fruit, and such.  I avoid white flours and anything that is sweetened (meaning everything from the obvious, such as dessert, to the subtle, such as ranch dressing that has added sugar).  I've even been avoiding things like stevia in my tea, because my understanding is that the sweet taste tricks your body into producing insulin, even though there's no calories there.

 

 

I'm glad you thought it was a good question, because I was worried it might seem "duh", lol.

 

So another one: You mentioned carbs and you mentioned fats (proportional to carbs.)  But what has your protein done, along with your overall calories?  Just trying to see what the other side of the equation was doing when carbs were high (or what I call normal, lol) vs. low.

 

I can see from my sporadic tracking that my fats tend to hover around 25% whether I'm packing in protein (and therefore lowering carbs, though that's not my specific goal) or not.  I don't think I go below 50% carbs very often.  I just know I physically feel a LOT better when my protein is up and few of my carbs are simple.  I'm still considering tweaks for weight loss, but my priority is not feeling miserable.  ;)

[solascriptura]

Thank you! That's interesting that you had the same stomach pains. I take it that it eventually passed?

The stomach pains did stop. My stomach still growls at night but it isn't painful. I just wish that the growling would stop. It's pretty annoying when I try to sleep and the LOUD growling wakes me up.

[Greta]

I'm glad you thought it was a good question, because I was worried it might seem "duh", lol.

 

So another one: You mentioned carbs and you mentioned fats (proportional to carbs.)  But what has your protein done, along with your overall calories?  Just trying to see what the other side of the equation was doing when carbs were high (or what I call normal, lol) vs. low.

 

I can see from my sporadic tracking that my fats tend to hover around 25% whether I'm packing in protein (and therefore lowering carbs, though that's not my specific goal) or not.  I don't think I go below 50% carbs very often.  I just know I physically feel a LOT better when my protein is up and few of my carbs are simple.  I'm still considering tweaks for weight loss, but my priority is not feeling miserable.  ;)

 

 

I know that when I was ketogenic, my protein was usually right around 25% of total calories (ETA:  carbs were less than 10% and fat made up the rest).  I haven't tracked recently, so I can't give a number to compare, but I would say that it's probably been less.  I still make sure that I'm getting some protein at every meal (because this prevents hypoglycemia) but I've noticed that my appetite for protein just isn't what it was when I was low carb.  It takes a lot less meat now for me to feel like I've had plenty of meat.  So that is probably something I need to be more mindful of, and maybe try to consciously add some protein to my diet.  I used to make shakes/smoothies with good quality protein powder, but I haven't done that in a long time.

 

I like the way you put that:  not feeling miserable is my main goal as well!  That's far more important to me than my weight, though I would prefer to lose a few, or at least not gain anymore!

Edited April 6, 2017 by Greta

[Carrie12345]

 

I like the way you put that:  not feeling miserable is my main goal as well!  That's far more important to me than my weight, though I would prefer to lose a few, or at least not gain anymore!

 

Preach!

[LindaOz]

Have you ever read Trim Healthy Mama? The authors present a way of eating that they describe as 'controlled carb' and they talk a lot about how carbs should be combined with protein and a very small amount of good fats. Other times you have meals that are higher in fats but very low carbs. Both are necessary. Many people have had great success with it.

[Greta]

Have you ever read Trim Healthy Mama? The authors present a way of eating that they describe as 'controlled carb' and they talk a lot about how carbs should be combined with protein and a very small amount of good fats. Other times you have meals that are higher in fats but very low carbs. Both are necessary. Many people have had great success with it.

 

 

I had heard of it before, but was intimidated by the extraordinary length of the book!  :D  It sounds like something that could work for me.  I've learned that I need carbs at breakfast to avoid a migraine.  But dinner could be a low-carb meal and I think I would be fine.  Is that kind of what they mean?  Or is it longer cycles than that?

[kiana]

I had heard of it before, but was intimidated by the extraordinary length of the book!   :D  It sounds like something that could work for me.  I've learned that I need carbs at breakfast to avoid a migraine.  But dinner could be a low-carb meal and I think I would be fine.  Is that kind of what they mean?  Or is it longer cycles than that?

 

Try it and see how you feel! I recommend while you're playing around that you track how you feel compared with what you ate so you know you're not seeing correlations that aren't there. 

 

I think "try it and see how you feel" is so incredibly underrated even though it seems so obvious. If you feel like warmed-over dog food on a diet, it isn't the right diet for you, no matter how wonderful it is for everyone else. 

[LindaOz]

I had heard of it before, but was intimidated by the extraordinary length of the book! :D It sounds like something that could work for me. I've learned that I need carbs at breakfast to avoid a migraine. But dinner could be a low-carb meal and I think I would be fine. Is that kind of what they mean? Or is it longer cycles than that?

They don't specify a particular cycle but you just alternate the fats/carbs meals in whatever way works for you so long as you are getting both along the way. They also talk about having a 3 hour gap between changing main fuel source (eg: fat to carb) so that your body has time to burn that fuel before changing source. Don't know if that makes sense - the book explained it much better... It also goes right into what carbs you should and shouldn't have. Carbs are not demonized but you learn how to eat the right ones and use them properly.

 

Yes, the original book was massive but a revised edition has come out that is shorter and much more readable. I have both but I still like the first one for the recipes. HTH.

[Greta]

Try it and see how you feel! I recommend while you're playing around that you track how you feel compared with what you ate so you know you're not seeing correlations that aren't there. 

 

I think "try it and see how you feel" is so incredibly underrated even though it seems so obvious. If you feel like warmed-over dog food on a diet, it isn't the right diet for you, no matter how wonderful it is for everyone else. 

 

So true!  I guess I just want someone to give me all the answers so that I know what to do!  :lol:  I'm probably the only one who can find those answers, though.

 

They don't specify a particular cycle but you just alternate the fats/carbs meals in whatever way works for you so long as you are getting both along the way. They also talk about having a 3 hour gap between changing main fuel source (eg: fat to carb) so that your body has time to burn that fuel before changing source. Don't know if that makes sense - the book explained it much better... It also goes right into what carbs you should and shouldn't have. Carbs are not demonized but you learn how to eat the right ones and use them properly.

 

Yes, the original book was massive but a revised edition has come out that is shorter and much more readable. I have both but I still like the first one for the recipes. HTH.

 

 

That does help.  Thank you!

[mom31257]

I did a medium carb diet and lost 25 pounds. I kept all my meals at 20-25 carbs or less and ate lower carb snacks. I guess I stayed under 90-100 a day. I never felt bad at all.