Feeling Defeated After Achievement Testing (Me, Not the Kid) -- Long

[Arcadia]

This article might help.

Destination Success: Raising a Self-Actualized Adult not a Straight “A†Student https://www.gro-gifted.org/destination-success-raising-a-self-actualized-adult-not-a-straight-a-student/

 

"Some gifted children are simply not interested in academics. As a parent, it can be disillusioning to look at your child, who is capable of excelling in virtually any subject they choose, but lacks the motivation to perform in any subject at all. While there are many reasons, a gifted student may not thrive in an educational environment, in some cases, all the accommodations in the world, endless parent/teacher meetings, 504 plans, bribes, and threats, fail to make a difference. Frustrated and confused, parents and educators sometimes invest so much time and energy trying to find solutions to “school†problems, that they lose sight of the larger goal of raising the child into a capable adult."

[SeaConquest]

I want to thank you all for your thoughts, and will come back to comment. I took all of my spring break off last week, and am slammed now with work. I promise to come back to this as soon as I come up for air. Please know that I appreciate all of you taking the time to comment.

Edited April 6, 2017 by SeaConquest

[RoundAbout]

I got some wise advice a few years back about homeschooling which I think often gets missed. What is your mission statement for homeschooling? I know that kind of seems a bit odd...why would you need a mission statement, but it drills down to the why are you homeschooling. This is essentially the north star that keeps me centered through this journey. I think this is what the other boardies are getting at up thread.

 

This is such great advice! Although I tell everyone I meet that we homeschool for academic reasons, its really just because that's a safe and easy answer that everyone understands. Really, for us its more about lifestyle. We checked out a local math circle recently and while it was a good fit academically, and in some ways really humbling to see so many high performing kids in one room, I felt like it was also a good reminder of why we homeschool. The amount of hours these kids put in with school and activities, the focus on achievement and external validation already in late elementary and middle school would not at all be a good fit for DS or our family. Talking to the parents was so eye-opening about what goes on in some of these high pressure communities.

 

DS is a high performer but he is not a grind. He's the kind of kid who wants to spend a whole day reading snuggled into a bean bag chair, or write his own proof of a math problem, or watch The Great Courses randomly, or study how to solve a 4x4 Rubik's Cube, or spend 3 hours on AOPS instead of 45 minutes. From a family perspective we want to be able to take off in the middle of the day for a long bike ride when the weather is great, go skiing for a week when we find a deal, and not have to worry about missing homework or 3 different swim meets. 

 

So while I'm sure we could move a few towns over to get into one of these amazing schools, there's a lot my son would be missing. However, if I didn't love homeschooling, I'd move in a heartbeat and just find a way to make it work. 

[SeaConquest]

I got some wise advice a few years back about homeschooling which I think often gets missed. What is your mission statement for homeschooling? I know that kind of seems a bit odd...why would you need a mission statement, but it drills down to the why are you homeschooling. This is essentially the north star that keeps me centered through this journey. I think this is what the other boardies are getting at up thread.

 

We are lucky both of us live in SD where there is an overabundance of options available. Though sometimes I think that might make decision making harder than a clear cut situation where there are zero/minimal resources available.

 

I'm not a "homeschooling is the only choice" advocate. I think it is highly circumstantial and only you know what is best at this time in this season for you and for yours. Maybe it is homeschooling. Maybe it is a different public charter option. Maybe it is trying out public school gifted programs for awhile to explore that fit. I've seen people come in and out of various options as life happens and circumstances change.

I wanted to come back to this because you raise a good question re our mission statement. I've always maintained that I am a reluctant homeschooler. My husband was always the bigger proponent of alternative education models. If it had been strictly up to me, S would be attending one of the better private schools in our area. But, after I got pregnant with R, I knew that two in private school was likely going to be out of reach for us financially. So, I tried to "choice" S into some of the better public/charter schools for K, but he didn't get in. So, homeschooling won out by default.

 

And, I have actually enjoyed homeschooling quite a bit more than I imagined I would. S and I learn in much the same way, and he is generally a compliant child, so our homeschool days run pretty smoothly. But, the thought of adding R to our homeschool in a year or two makes me incredibly nervous. He is a very different kid. Plus, now that the fugue state of postpartum depression has passed, and my meds are doing their job, I feel ready to tackle new challenges outside the home.

 

So, I feel torn about what is the right thing to do. I have always told myself that I really had no choice but to homeschool S, but what if the test indicates that he really would do well in a gifted classroom or good public/private school? Is all of this worth the sacrifice? I am just not sure. So, all of that to say, I don't have a North Star to guide me beyond trying to find the best educational fit for my kids, while still balancing my own happiness.

 

I did call SD Unified, and signed him up for the COGAT next week. That should at least give me an idea if GATE is even an option for him. Once we have more data points, I will feel more confident in making a decision. For now, our plan is to continue homeschooling with our charter in 2017-2018. R has at least one more year left of preschool (since he is an August birthday, we may redshirt him for K; since so many kids are redshirting today, his preschool has a PK5 class). And I won't know the outcome of nursing school apps until this time next year. So, that gives us time to sort things out and make educational decisions for both of them.

 

As an aside, one other thing that I recently learned, is that, since we technically qualify as "homeless" under CA law, we can enroll the kids in any school without the school requiring proof of residency. So, in that sense, any school within a reasonable commuting distance is on the table -- that opens up a lot more options than I thought previously.

Edited April 9, 2017 by SeaConquest

[Arcadia]

So, I feel torn about what is the right thing to do. I have always told myself that I really had no choice but to homeschool S, but what if the test indicates that he really would do well in a gifted classroom or good public/private school? Is all of this worth the sacrifice? I am just not sure.

...

For now, our plan is to continue homeschooling with our charter in 2017-2018. R has at least one more year left of preschool (since he is an August birthday, we may redshirt him for K; since so many kids are redshirting today, his preschool has a PK5 class).

Our original plan B was for me to go back to work when my younger boy enters Kindergarten. So by staying home we are losing a potential take home income from me after daycare cost of >$50k per annum. Not much for my area but still significant to us. My husband looking back thinks it is the right choice to switch our kids to CAVA and then switch to homeschooling when oldest is faster than CAVA's bureaucracy wants to cope with. My kids enjoyed the numerous CAVA field trips. We have looked at Ocean Grove and decided it wouldn't fit our temperaments since we don't have the weekly co-op day here for socialization. His reason is that my oldest would be bored to the extent of giving up and my youngest would fall through the cracks in brick and mortar public school. My younger boy's outsourced classes in K-5th grade had very low student to teacher ratio and most have teacher aides to help. We did pay more for the lower ratio. I just maxed out one of our credit cards on our kids next year's outsourced classes *sigh*

 

For what it's worth, all the standardized tests results and the WISC results did not give the answer to whether my kids would do well in a gifted classroom or good public/private school. A few shadow days at a school would probably give a much better picture of goodness of fit. The private schools we visited were understanding about potentially needing more than two shadow days.

 

Take a semester at a time. Kids mature and they develop their own personalities and goals. We are still homeschooling for purely academic reasons.

Edited April 9, 2017 by Arcadia

[Donna]

This article might help.

Destination Success: Raising a Self-Actualized Adult not a Straight “A†Student https://www.gro-gifted.org/destination-success-raising-a-self-actualized-adult-not-a-straight-a-student/

 

"Some gifted children are simply not interested in academics. As a parent, it can be disillusioning to look at your child, who is capable of excelling in virtually any subject they choose, but lacks the motivation to perform in any subject at all. While there are many reasons, a gifted student may not thrive in an educational environment, in some cases, all the accommodations in the world, endless parent/teacher meetings, 504 plans, bribes, and threats, fail to make a difference. Frustrated and confused, parents and educators sometimes invest so much time and energy trying to find solutions to “school†problems, that they lose sight of the larger goal of raising the child into a capable adult."

 

A little side tracking but this quote resonates with me.

 

Explains my ds19 perfectly.

 

He is now taking college courses in guitars (building and repair) and thriving...so much so that after the first course, the instructor asked him to assist in teaching next year and allowed him to do a different/more involved project during the next course. If it has to do with something hands on, especially music (sound/guitar building/arranging), he has an uncanny ability to just seem to know but, unless gaining knowledge has a direct hands-on application to him, he struggles with being interested/motivated enough to learn. He also runs a sound studio from his basement and next plans to take more courses in sound engineering to learn the reasons why what he does works and how to improve. He took a couple sound courses online during high school when I pulled him out of public school his junior year to go back to homeschooling...there were a few reasons but a big one was because he was struggling with academics. He completed his academic classes at home and it was better because I could tie most material to his interests directly or indirectly.

[SeaConquest]

So, the scores came back:

 

CLUSTER/Test Raw W GE Proficiency RPI SS (68% Band) Sta-9

 

BRIEF ACHIEVEMENT - 512 5.8 v advanced 100/90 130 (128-133) 9

TOTAL ACHIEVEMENT - 505 5.4 advanced 99/90 133 (131-135) 9

 

BROAD READING - 508 5.9 v advanced 100/90 127 (125-129) 9

BROAD MATH - 507 5.4 advanced 99/90 140 (136-144) 9

BROAD WRITTEN LANG - 501 4.8 advanced 98/90 121 (117-124) 8

 

BRIEF READING - 508 5.4 v advanced 100/90 124 (121-126) 8

BRIEF MATH - 515 6.2 v advanced 100/90 143 (139-147) 9

MATH CALC SKILLS - 507 5.6 advanced 99/90 150 (144-156) 9

BRIEF WRITING - 511 6.9 advanced 99/90 127 (123-130) 9

WRITTEN EXPRESSION - 495 4.0 avg to adv 96/90 113 (107-118) 7

ACADEMIC SKILLS - 518 6.5 v advanced 100/90 138 (135-140) 9

ACADEMIC FLUENCY - 493 3.7 avg to adv 95/90 112 (108-116) 7

ACADEMIC APPS - 506 5.4 advanced 99/90 126 (123-130) 9

 

Letter-Word Identification 57 516 6.0 v advanced 100/90 125 (123-127) 8

Reading Fluency 55 509 7.5 advanced 99/90 134 (129-139) 9

Calculation 24 524 7.5 v advanced 100/90 172 (163-181) 9

Math Fluency 39 491 2.8 average 91/90 102 (98-105) 5

Spelling 38 513 6.3 v advanced 100/90 126 (122-130) 9

Writing Fluency 8 480 2.3 average 84/90 93 (85-101) 4

Passage Comprehension 30 500 4.3 advanced 98/90 113 (109-118) 7

Applied Problems 36 507 5.0 v advanced 100/90 127 (123-131) 9

Writing Samples 19-C 510 8.0 advanced 99/90 123 (118-128) 8

 

Just for reference, the mean score is 100, standard deviation is +/-15. So, 130 is 2 std deviations away (98%ile), and 145 is 3 std deviations away (99.9%). 

 

Some things stand out to me. His math calculation score was very high (150), which is what I see from him. Quick conceptual understanding and good math aptitude. What brought his scores way down was his fluency (ie where he had to write down answers quickly in a timed environment). She mentioned that he is a very slow writer, which is true, and that he talked during these sections, slowing him down further. He definitely prefers to type or do things in his head. She also mentioned that, with another year of maturity, and perhaps some targeted practice with writing more quickly, that his scores should improve dramatically. (Not to mention the aforementioned review of topics that he hasn't seen in several years, which she felt brought his applied math score down.)

 

So, overall, despite some missteps on my part in not getting him fully ready for the exam, the test does seem to comport with what I see from him on a daily basis -- fairly globally gifted, not really pointy, but with an aptitude for math and an aversion to writing. With all that said, would you apply for Epsilon (he can handle it), wait another year and test again (he just needs time to mature), or forget about the idea (he isn't mathy enough for that place)? I was afraid that he would get smoked there, but his math calc score provides me with some level of reassurance.

 

I really appreciate all the feedback. 

Edited April 12, 2017 by SeaConquest

[Arcadia]

For Epsilon camp or any camp, I would look at my kids maturity rather than math aptitude. For classes, I would look at interest and aptitude because I am around if things go south and my kids brick and mortar classes all have staff trained in calming intense and special needs kids down. One of the parent volunteer at my kids class is a special needs teacher. How is he at other camps if he doesn't know anyone? What is Epsilon camp's policy/procedure if kids have a meltdown?

 

Below from Epsilon camp's prerequisite is what my DS11 can't do with strangers. He can work independently but not in groups. He still wails on the spot if he fail. He also doesn't have the patience to wait. My DS12 will hold it together until the end of day and explode in private since he was in preschool. So despite DS12 being the more intense/spirited/explosive child, camp counselors have a much better time with him.

 

"Ability to concentrate for 50 minutes in a classroom environment.

Ability to work independently and in groups.

Ability to attempt new things and to fail gracefully when they do not work out."

 

If you think your son would enjoy the camp, just apply but keep in mind what is stated about the camp policy.

 

"At no time will we modify our pace, depth, or expectations for those who elected to attend who find they are not actually at the mathematical reasoning levels required for full participation and enjoyment of our program. If after accepting the invitation to attend, you, your child, or our faculty discover that this is not a good fit, your child may stay, but we cannot alter our program. "

 

ETA:

DS12 is at a science spring break camp (9am to 5pm, pickup by 6pm) walkable from home and he was exhausted when I picked him up at 5:30pm yesterday.

Edited April 12, 2017 by Arcadia

[SeaConquest]

For Epsilon camp or any camp, I would look at my kids maturity rather than math aptitude. For classes, I would look at interest and aptitude because I am around if things go south and my kids brick and mortar classes all have staff trained in calming intense and special needs kids down. One of the parent volunteer at my kids class is a special needs teacher. How is he at other camps if he doesn't know anyone? What is Epsilon camp's policy/procedure if kids have a meltdown?

 

Below from Epsilon camp's prerequisite is what my DS11 can't do with strangers. He can work independently but not in groups. He still wails on the spot if he fail. He also doesn't have the patience to wait. My DS12 will hold it together until the end of day and explode in private since he was in preschool. So despite DS12 being the more intense/spirited/explosive child, camp counselors have a much better time with him.

 

"Ability to concentrate for 50 minutes in a classroom environment.

Ability to work independently and in groups.

Ability to attempt new things and to fail gracefully when they do not work out."

 

If you think your son would enjoy the camp, just apply but keep in mind what is stated about the camp policy.

 

"At no time will we modify our pace, depth, or expectations for those who elected to attend who find they are not actually at the mathematical reasoning levels required for full participation and enjoyment of our program. If after accepting the invitation to attend, you, your child, or our faculty discover that this is not a good fit, your child may stay, but we cannot alter our program. "

 

ETA:

DS12 is at a science spring break camp (9am to 5pm, pickup by 6pm) walkable from home and he was exhausted when I picked him up at 5:30pm yesterday.

 

This is good advice. Thank you. He doesn't have any problem going into environments where he doesn't know anyone. He makes friends quickly and easily. I have never heard of him having a meltdown. He normally distracts people when he is bored. That's his main issue. If he is engaged, he can concentrate. If not, he doesn't. We've also really been working on failing gracefully for awhile, so I think he is really good on this count -- almost too good, in the sense that he doesn't take life (or failures) as seriously as I do.

 

He obviously won't be bored because the subject is too easy; I just wonder whether he will space out or become a distraction if things are too hard. I really don't know. He does fine in Math Kangaroo. I think I will see how he does in the CTY science camp this summer. He has been to all-day summer camp for several years, and loves it, but none of the camps have been academic (or, at least, not academically on his level). Epsilon would be the first time that he would be really challenged all day long -- and that environment might be ok for the average Silicon Valley kid raised in a Tiger household, but he is definitely more just a smart, laid-back, San Diego boy, ykwim? 

Edited April 12, 2017 by SeaConquest

[wander]

This is good advice. Thank you. He doesn't have any problem going into environments where he doesn't know anyone. He makes friends quickly and easily. I have never heard of him having a meltdown. He normally distracts people when he is bored. That's his main issue. If he is engaged, he can concentrate. If not, he doesn't. We've also really been working on failing gracefully for awhile, so I think he is really good on this count -- almost too good, in the sense that he doesn't take life (or failures) as seriously as I do.

 

He obviously won't be bored because the subject is too easy; I just wonder whether he will space out or become a distraction if things are too hard. I really don't know. He does fine in Math Kangaroo. I think I will see how he does in the CTY science camp this summer. He has been to all-day summer camp for several years, and loves it, but none of the camps have been academic (or, at least, not academically on his level). Epsilon would be the first time that he would be really challenged all day long -- and that environment might be ok for the average Silicon Valley kid raised in a Tiger household, but he is definitely more just a smart, laid-back, San Diego boy, ykwim? 

 

 

Aside from the maturity issue, I would really think about how much your DS would LOVE an intense math experience. If your DS isn't passionate about math, then the days will be long. I have heard of kids who attend and don't want to go back because they weren't that passionate about doing math so intensely for 2 weeks. The counselors and instructors are fabulous and are great at helping kids stay on task, and encouraging kids who may feel overwhelmed. FWIW, my DD had never attended a summer camp is generally a fun loving, not as motivated as my older DC -  kiddo, and she loved the experience. It was literally life changing for her. I also have to disagree and say that aptitude is important - especially if a kid is introverted, timid or shy and therefore afraid to ask for help. Gifted kids can be so hard on themselves!

 

Has your DS completed the entrance exam and the exploration questions? Completing the required problems is one great way to judge suitability. The exploration questions show the team how the kid thinks mathematically and will be a good indicator for you. Is the child excited about solving the problems? Does the child want to discuss the problems further after working on them? Do you have to prodd the kid to complete the work, or is the child intrinsically driven to finish? If you are thinking of applying this year, I encourage you to get your DS started asap as there are only a few spots left. Also the staff is great with answering questions - I would encourage you reach to the admission staff. 

 

Lastly, I'm not familiar with KTEA, but was there a section on concepts and application? I wouldn't worry about fluency as this lag is pretty common and Epsilon understands this. I only see calculation and fluency subsets and would want to see problem-solving capability, but again, I'm not familiar with this test at all. 

[Arcadia]

He normally distracts people when he is bored.

...

Epsilon would be the first time that he would be really challenged all day long -- and that environment might be ok for the average Silicon Valley kid raised in a Tiger household, but he is definitely more just a smart, laid-back, San Diego boy, ykwim?

Epsilon is a family camp so I would still apply if your family is free (time wise) to go because you would be at the location. Worse case possible if he is too distracting to classmates is that he has to sit out a session or event. My kids' ex-classmate (very likely 2E) literally dance on tables when he was bored in an outsourced class which was why he had a volunteer as an aide at all times. His slightly older sister was in the same class but couldn't do anything and his mom fits the tiger mom definition more than the author.

[SeaConquest]

Aside from the maturity issue, I would really think about how much your DS would LOVE an intense math experience. If your DS isn't passionate about math, then the days will be long. I have heard of kids who attend and don't want to go back because they weren't that passionate about doing math so intensely for 2 weeks. The counselors and instructors are fabulous and are great at helping kids stay on task, and encouraging kids who may feel overwhelmed. FWIW, my DD had never attended a summer camp is generally a fun loving, not as motivated as my older DC -  kiddo, and she loved the experience. It was literally life changing for her. I also have to disagree and say that aptitude is important - especially if a kid is introverted, timid or shy and therefore afraid to ask for help. Gifted kids can be so hard on themselves!

 

Has your DS completed the entrance exam and the exploration questions? Completing the required problems is one great way to judge suitability. The exploration questions show the team how the kid thinks mathematically and will be a good indicator for you. Is the child excited about solving the problems? Does the child want to discuss the problems further after working on them? Do you have to prodd the kid to complete the work, or is the child intrinsically driven to finish? If you are thinking of applying this year, I encourage you to get your DS started asap as there are only a few spots left. Also the staff is great with answering questions - I would encourage you reach to the admission staff. 

 

Lastly, I'm not familiar with KTEA, but was there a section on concepts and application? I wouldn't worry about fluency as this lag is pretty common and Epsilon understands this. I only see calculation and fluency subsets and would want to see problem-solving capability, but again, I'm not familiar with this test at all. 

 

I told him 

 

eta-- sorry, cavalier on my lap posting.

Edited April 12, 2017 by SeaConquest

[Arcadia]

I also have to disagree and say that aptitude is important - especially if a kid is introverted, timid or shy and therefore afraid to ask for help.

After meeting the aptitude requirements whatever that may be for various camps and classes, it is the attitude/motivation/maturity issues that kick in especially if it is a residential camp without family.

Edited April 12, 2017 by Arcadia

[wander]

After meeting the aptitude requirements whatever that may be for various camps and classes, it is the attitude/motivation/maturity issues that kick in especially if it is a residential camp without family.

Agreed. 

[SeaConquest]

Aside from the maturity issue, I would really think about how much your DS would LOVE an intense math experience. If your DS isn't passionate about math, then the days will be long. I have heard of kids who attend and don't want to go back because they weren't that passionate about doing math so intensely for 2 weeks. The counselors and instructors are fabulous and are great at helping kids stay on task, and encouraging kids who may feel overwhelmed. FWIW, my DD had never attended a summer camp is generally a fun loving, not as motivated as my older DC -  kiddo, and she loved the experience. It was literally life changing for her. I also have to disagree and say that aptitude is important - especially if a kid is introverted, timid or shy and therefore afraid to ask for help. Gifted kids can be so hard on themselves!

 

Has your DS completed the entrance exam and the exploration questions? Completing the required problems is one great way to judge suitability. The exploration questions show the team how the kid thinks mathematically and will be a good indicator for you. Is the child excited about solving the problems? Does the child want to discuss the problems further after working on them? Do you have to prodd the kid to complete the work, or is the child intrinsically driven to finish? If you are thinking of applying this year, I encourage you to get your DS started asap as there are only a few spots left. Also the staff is great with answering questions - I would encourage you reach to the admission staff. 

 

Lastly, I'm not familiar with KTEA, but was there a section on concepts and application? I wouldn't worry about fluency as this lag is pretty common and Epsilon understands this. I only see calculation and fluency subsets and would want to see problem-solving capability, but again, I'm not familiar with this test at all. 

 

I told him about the camp, but he was the one who was really interested in going, so much so that when I told him that he would have to do well on a test to get in, he was like, 'OK, cool.' And he did think that the achievement test was fun 'for the challenge.' So, he definitely is interested in math. But, I don't think of him as *that kid* who is obsessed with math. I mean, he did read The Number Devil at night in bed for fun, but he really enjoys a lot of stuff, and is especially social. So, math with other kids sounds fun to him.

 

Re problem-solving, I don't know if she did that subtest. I posted all the scores I have from her. I assumed that was the applications subtest?

 

I looked at the entrance exam awhile ago, and thought that he could do most of it, as I recall. We are all booked up for this summer. I was hoping to use his scores for entrance next summer. But, since he didn't score high enough, I am trying to determine whether we retest next year, or whether I gently guide him another direction -- one more suitable for him. Although this kid is pretty bulletproof self-confidence-wise (at least, before puberty sets in), I still don't want to send him to something that is inappropriate for him (for the sake of others as much as for him).

 

ETA: I have also been trying to decide if we *need* to homeschool, or whether he would do equally well in a public school GATE program, which are more designed for the 2 std deviation crowd vs. the PG. 

Edited April 12, 2017 by SeaConquest

[SoCal_Bear]

SeaConquest,

 

I thought this discussion on Davidson about Epsilon Camp was pretty illuminating about the nature of the camp and what it is actually like. My son likes and enjoys math. He is mathy, but I would not say he loves math. He does like and enjoy math circle. I can clearly see what loving something looks like for him. He loves science to the point at which he spends his free time doing science experiments, reading books about science and will talk to anyone who listens about that. He will always head to the non-fiction section to search for books, and I have to encourage him to read fiction selections as well. He is not like that about math. My impression from the linked thread and in hearing what a counselor (son of a mom I know) said...those are the kids who this camp is passionate about reaching.

 

HTH.

http://giftedissues.davidsongifted.org/BB/ubbthreads.php/topics/117507/1.html

Edited April 13, 2017 by calbear

[SeaConquest]

SeaConquest,

 

I thought this discussion on Davidson about Epsilon Camp was pretty illuminating about the nature of the camp and what it is actually like. My son likes and enjoys math. He is mathy, but I would not say he loves math. He does like and enjoy math circle. I can clearly see what loving something looks like for him. He loves science to the point at which he spends his free time doing science experiments, reading books about science and will talk to anyone who listens about that. He will always head to the non-fiction section to search for books, and I have to encourage him to read fiction selections as well. He is not like that about math. My impression from the linked thread and in hearing what a counselor (son of a mom I know) said...those are the kids who this camp is passionate about reaching.

 

HTH.

 

http://giftedissues.davidsongifted.org/BB/ubbthreads.php/topics/117507/1.html

Thanks for this. It does seem pretty intense. I don't really see that kind of intensity for one subject in Sacha at all. He really has a wide variety of interests, at least for now. I guess that's why I just try to follow his interests and requests. I'm hoping that a passion will arise if I just give him enough space and time to explore. I will talk to him about what the day there would be like to try to gauge whether he is really that interested.

[RoundAbout]

We did some research on Epsilon Camp and yes, my impression was its for kids who are constantly doing math and incredibly passionate about it. That's definitely my DS - he has a room full of white boards and a shelf full of math books and is always working something out (irrational base number systems, proofs, fractals, etc.) just for fun. Ultimately time and expense put Epsilon out of reach for now and so we're taking advantage of more local opportunities. 

[Kathy in Richmond]

Monique, I think that there's nothing wrong in just nurturing Sacha's love of learning at home & waiting for the future to decide on summer camps. And I'm the Kathy who helped organize Epsilon back in 2011 in the thread that calbear referenced! :)  I was academic & admissions director for the first couple of summers.

 

There were all kinds of kids at camp. At that level, intensity is bound to be present in spades. The kids who loved camp most were those who were just plain passionate about learning math & could go at it all day long.

 

You know what was interesting? After I did admissions, I put all test scores, etc, out of mind & went to camp ready to meet the kids. Afterwards, when I returned home, I peeked back at the scores of the kids who got the most out of camp. There was very little correlation between those kids and the top test scores..

 

It takes a certain personality in addition to smarts to really thrive in that setting of go, go, go all day long. Lots of smart kids are introverted or need more time to reflect during their school day (myself included). I think that camp is perhaps more of a challenge for them.

 

As for my own family, I did not consider sending my kids to summer camps till they were well into middle school. We didn't have the $$ anyway. They ended up loving camp when they did go, and there were various financial aids & scholarships to help at the more established camps. It did NOT hurt to wait!

 

Also, I wouldn't dwell too much on Sasha's scores (though they are fine, even more than fine!) They can be all over the place at that age. My son's were crazy, including his math scores, in mid to late elementary. And he turned out to be tops at math (went to MOSP) in the long run. It's a journey, not a race. You'll get much further along by looking at what makes your son tick & nurturing that curiosity. It doesn't require fancy camps at his age.

Edited April 13, 2017 by Kathy in Richmond

[eternalsummer]

If your question is could he be well served by a program geared toward kids with a global IQ of 120-135, given that he is quite social, the answer is probably a qualified yes.  I don't know him, but in my experience with a relatively similar kid (not PG but HG), the social aspect of even an academically poor school program was and remains very attractive.  If we could find an academic fit that even halfway worked, she would love to be part of a school again.

 

However, no accessible academic program, even one targeted at bright kids, would come close to touching what we can do, academically, at home.  It's just that the social draw of such a program would be so strong as to make the argument a close one.

 

Now, if the question is would he be better served by such a program than by your homeschool - given that some of his scores were lowered by handwriting fluency problems and there is, in my experience, no shortage of handwriting in any school environment - I doubt it, in academic terms.

 

The social might be worth it to you, though.  I'd say put him in school for a year just to see, but if he loves it socially and is unwilling to homeschool again, but you can tell the academics are not what you wanted, you'll have a hard time getting him to buy back in.

[SeaConquest]

Monique, I think that there's nothing wrong in just nurturing Sacha's love of learning at home & waiting for the future to decide on summer camps. And I'm the Kathy who helped organize Epsilon back in 2011 in the thread that calbear referenced! :) I was academic & admissions director for the first couple of summers.

 

There were all kinds of kids at camp. At that level, intensity is bound to be present in spades. The kids who loved camp most were those who were just plain passionate about learning math & could go at it all day long.

 

You know what was interesting? After I did admissions, I put all test scores, etc, out of mind & went to camp ready to meet the kids. Afterwards, when I returned home, I peeked back at the scores of the kids who got the most out of camp. There was very little correlation between those kids and the top test scores..

 

It takes a certain personality in addition to smarts to really thrive in that setting of go, go, go all day long. Lots of smart kids are introverted or need more time to reflect during their school day (myself included). I think that camp is perhaps more of a challenge for them.

 

As for my own family, I did not consider sending my kids to summer camps till they were well into middle school. We didn't have the $$ anyway. They ended up loving camp when they did go, and there were various financial aids & scholarships to help at the more established camps. It did NOT hurt to wait!

 

Also, I wouldn't dwell too much on Sasha's scores (though they are fine, even more than fine!) They can be all over the place at that age. My son's were crazy, including his math scores, in mid to late elementary. And he turned out to be tops at math (went to MOSP) in the long run. It's a journey, not a race. You'll get much further along by looking at what makes your son tick & nurturing that curiosity. It doesn't require fancy camps at his age.

Thanks, Kathy. I really appreciate you taking the time to share all this. I hope I didn't give the impression that I'm the one driving the train re Epsilon Camp. I show Sacha lots of opportunities for camps and classes -- many he tells me that he has no interest in, others he tells me 'that would be fun,' 'that sounds cool,' 'ooh, I really want to do that,' etc. Epsilon fell into the category of opportunities that interested him, and he was willing to do a 2 hour test to try to get in. None of that was at my insistence. He was driving the train. So, from my perspective, that's a good indication of interest from an 8 year old.

 

Also, because he is so social, he really thrives on camps and classes with other kids. So, while we could wait until middle school, he is extroverted enough that these types of social environments are some of the important things that have given our academic homeschool the social balance he needs.

 

The main issue for me was one of aptitude, because I don't want to set him up to fail. His scores, while good, are not at the level of the 99.9%, which is what Epsilon seems to want. So, I've been trying to decide whether to just gently guide him in a different direction or retest him, hoping for greater maturity and writing fluency in a year.

 

In tandem with that question, I've also been mulling over whether he really needs to be homeschooled, or whether we can find an appropriate fit in our local GATE program, now that he is old enough to attend.

 

So, I'm just not sure how much to allow these scores to drive our decision-making going forward on these issues. I apologize if I'm going around and around because that's how my head is, just swirling with questions, paralyzed by anxiety and not wanting to make a mistake. You know, just the typical machinations of a gifted kid turned adult. ;)

Edited April 13, 2017 by SeaConquest

[eternalsummer]

You might see if you can shadow (or just observe, if you don't want to get his hopes up) one of the local GATE programs for a couple of days.  We've been part of a few different ones in different states, and I moved a lot as a kid and so was part of different gifted programs, and they can really vary both as far as academic quality of the program itself (some are much more "just do extra work" and others are more focused on doing project-based learning and still others are more math/tech focused and etc) and the culture/social aspect of the kids.  The gifted program I attended that was populated by kids of grad students at UT-Austin was a very different program than the one DD did in a homogenous suburb in the midwest, kwim?

Edited April 13, 2017 by ananemone

[SoCal_Bear]

It's ok...I think all of us spend an inordinate amount of time going round and round. Ananemone makes a good point though above. Unlike other areas, Sacha has two opportunties. The normal ranged GATE type program (2 SDs) and the specialized Seminar GATE program which is specifically targeted for the 3 SDs and above. He seems from your description to thrive on the social energy about being around people. Maybe based on the CogAt that you are taking he may qualify for the latter. 

Mine is wired pretty different. Extended time in groups drains him. So, he needs to equal amount of down time to recover. All day programs just aren't in the cards for us right now.

[SeaConquest]

You might see if you can shadow (or just observe, if you don't want to get his hopes up) one of the local GATE programs for a couple of days. We've been part of a few different ones in different states, and I moved a lot as a kid and so was part of different gifted programs, and they can really vary both as far as academic quality of the program itself (some are much more "just do extra work" and others are more focused on doing project-based learning and still others are more math/tech focused and etc) and the culture/social aspect of the kids. The gifted program I attended that was populated by kids of grad students at UT-Austin was a very different program than the one DD did in a homogenous suburb in the midwest, kwim?

This is a good idea. My friend is a school psych in a nearby district, and she said that his scores would definitely qualify him for the regular GATE program (2 std). He takes the COGAT tomorrow, so we will see if he qualifies for the Seminar program (3 std), and go from there on shadowing. Thank you all for the support, and helping me to work through these issues.

[Kathy in Richmond]

Thanks, Kathy. I really appreciate you taking the time to share all this. I hope I didn't give the impression that I'm the one driving the train re Epsilon Camp. I show Sacha lots of opportunities for camps and classes -- many he tells me that he has no interest in, others he tells me 'that would be fun,' 'that sounds cool,' 'ooh, I really want to do that,' etc. Epsilon fell into the category of opportunities that interested him, and he was willing to do a 2 hour test to try to get in. None of that was at my insistence. He was driving the train. So, from my perspective, that's a good indication of interest from an 8 year old.

 

There's certainly no harm in applying next year and seeing what happens! Test scores are no longer required; you can choose to submit a recommendation letter from a math teacher/mentor or a competition score instead. I'd especially look at how Sacha does on the Exploration problems. If he loves working on them, thinks about them a lot & extends them,then the camp is likely to be a terrific fit.

I was just trying to reassure you that regardless of what happens with regard to Epsilon, Sacha will be fine. I know from reading your posts over the years that you are doing a great job! And there's always MathPath or Mathcamp down the line when he's older. :D

 

Also, because he is so social, he really thrives on camps and classes with other kids. So, while we could wait until middle school, he is extroverted enough that these types of social environments are some of the important things that have given our academic homeschool the social balance he needs.

Oh, it's difficult when they're so extroverted. One of mine is, too, and it took lots of effort over the years to keep her engaged and busy. Maybe you could try the San Diego math circle or the new AoPS school that's opening soon in your city. The advantage would be that they're year long activities that attract the same sort of kids as Epsilon.

 

The main issue for me was one of aptitude, because I don't want to set him up to fail. His scores, while good, are not at the level of the 99.9%, which is what Epsilon seems to want. So, I've been trying to decide whether to just gently guide him in a different direction or retest him, hoping for greater maturity and writing fluency in a year.

If he does well on the Exploration problems and they accept him, then he should be OK mathematically. And it sounds like he has the personality to enjoy camp, too. :)

 

In tandem with that question, I've also been mulling over whether he really needs to be homeschooled, or whether we can find an appropriate fit in our local GATE program, now that he is old enough to attend.

 

So, I'm just not sure how much to allow these scores to drive our decision-making going forward on these issues. I apologize if I'm going around and around because that's how my head is, just swirling with questions, paralyzed by anxiety and not wanting to make a mistake. You know, just the typical machinations of a gifted kid turned adult. ;)

Btdt too, just at the other end of this crazy ride. You have my sympathy!

 

We did try the local GATE public school with ds from 8yo through 11yo. The kids were terrific, the work was at a really good level, but we saw him burning out from the intensity. So we started homeschooling instead...totally not what I ever thought I'd do! You could always try & see. Every kid and every program is different.

[SeaConquest]

Just a quick update: S took the Cogat this morning. He was the only kid testing, so it was great. The school psych said that he did well. We should get the results in a week or so, since he was the only kid testing.

[SeaConquest]

I give up. His Cogat came back and he totally bombed. His scores were not at all in line with the WJ, and he qualified for nothing. Nada. Zip. Zilch. Seriously, kid?

 

[Head desk]

[wapiti]

If it makes you feel any better, my middle kid bombed the CogAT in 3rd grade (as did his older siblings) and I could. not. get his teacher to offer more advanced math the following year.  I switched his school for 5th, where he not only placed into alg 1, but took the CogAT again and scored at the 99th percentile (or however the score comes, stanines or whatever) in the math-related areas.  One of his older brothers, probably my most gifted kid, actually scored very low, single-digit percentiles, on the quantitative and nonverbal sections - fortunately his 3rd grade teacher knew him well enough to laugh along with me; fast forward five years, and he scored in the 99th percentile for math on the PSAT 8/9 and I think 98th overall (taking it cold, of course).

[SeaConquest]

If it makes you feel any better, my middle kid bombed the CogAT in 3rd grade (as did his older siblings) and I could. not. get his teacher to offer more advanced math the following year. I switched his school for 5th, where he not only placed into alg 1, but took the CogAT again and scored at the 99th percentile (or however the score comes, stanines or whatever) in the math-related areas. One of his older brothers, probably my most gifted kid, actually scored very low, single-digit percentiles, on the quantitative and nonverbal sections - fortunately his 3rd grade teacher knew him well enough to laugh along with me; fast forward five years, and he scored in the 99th percentile for math on the PSAT 8/9 and I think 98th overall (taking it cold, of course).

It does make me feel better. Thanks.

 

I don't know whether to laugh or cry at this point.

[wapiti]

Laugh dear, laugh :)

[SeaConquest]

Laugh dear, laugh :)

I will try. I just have massive imposter syndrome when he doesn't perform to expectation. I feel like I need to turn in his AL card. I think it's doubly hard since I've always been a naturally great test taker (I study very little), so I just don't get how to help him.

[wapiti]

I feel your pain more than you know. Now I'm having that forehead-hitting-desk when it really counts... 8th grader has a 97 average in Alg 2 at school and is taking placement tests for the private high school. He spent one day reviewing geometry and there is a high likelihood that it wasn't enough. Sigh...

[Arcadia]

His Cogat came back and he totally bombed.

  

 

Besides the cogat being just a snapshot in time, I thought it has the reputation of being the most convenient first round screener for GATE programs rather than being a reliable test.

 

These PowerPoint slides by Belin-Blank on cogat might help

https://faculty.education.uiowa.edu/docs/dlohman/icn_full_day_using_cogat.ppt?sfvrsn=2

 

I feel your pain more than you know. Now I'm having that forehead-hitting-desk when it really counts... 8th grader has a 97 average in Alg 2 at school and is taking placement tests for the private high school. He spent one day reviewing geometry and there is a high likelihood that it wasn't enough. Sigh...

My DS12 was as grouchy as the bear on the California state flag yesterday because he woke up before his usual wake up time :lol: Good luck on your son's placement tests. We are still looking for suitable high schools.

[SeaConquest]

I feel your pain more than you know. Now I'm having that forehead-hitting-desk when it really counts... 8th grader has a 97 average in Alg 2 at school and is taking placement tests for the private high school. He spent one day reviewing geometry and there is a high likelihood that it wasn't enough. Sigh...

Ugh. I can only imagine. Hugs.

[mathnerd]

I give up. His Cogat came back and he totally bombed. His scores were not at all in line with the WJ, and he qualified for nothing. Nada. Zip. Zilch. Seriously, kid?

 

[Head desk]

Think of him as a "poor test taker". Most kids do not know instinctively how to take tests - they need to be explicitly coached on test taking strategies. This could be compounded by the fact that he has never taken tests before. My son has improved his test scores drastically partly due to me teaching him how to handle testing and partly due to him understanding that tests are an important tool to convey your mastery of the subject matter to the tester. I have taught my son how to bubble sheets, how to use scrap paper to work out problems instead of keeping numbers in his head, how to do error checking, how to go back and review answers, how to not treat tests like a race and hurry to win etc etc. It takes time and maturity and many attempts. Don't give up just yet :)

[SKL]

I will try. I just have massive imposter syndrome when he doesn't perform to expectation. I feel like I need to turn in his AL card. I think it's doubly hard since I've always been a naturally great test taker (I study very little), so I just don't get how to help him.

 

I know how you feel.  I wish I never told the gifted teacher he'd be having my kid in his program when she reached the right age.  (She was 5 at the time and blew away the Iowa with 99%ile in all 3 tested areas despite being a year young for the test.  Plus, there were so many signs in everyday life.)  For some reason she doesn't do well on TerraNova, which is the only test she's been given since then.  I would like to think she'll do better on an individual IQ test, but since I don't understand what her issue is, I really don't know.  But yeah, imposter syndrome over here.  And I was also a great test taker, so I don't understand - either you know it or you don't ....

[luuknam]

I will try. I just have massive imposter syndrome when he doesn't perform to expectation. I feel like I need to turn in his AL card. 

 

No need to turn in the AL card - he's 8 and doing BA 5, so, he's accelerated. 

 

For some reason she doesn't do well on TerraNova, which is the only test she's been given since then. 

 

 

The ceiling on the TerraNova is rather low, so, if you've got a kid who makes sloppy mistakes (looking at you, Celery), then the scores on the TerraNova are going to be less-than-impressive. Like, iirc on Math Computation Celery made 1 mistake last year, which dropped him to the 89th percentile for that, and similar kind of things with other subtests. He then also took the SCAT (because he magically managed to get every question in the vocab section right, so he qualified based on that), and scored at about the same level on the SCAT as on the TerraNova... but the SCAT was 5th grade, vs 3rd grade TerraNova. So, imo, the TerraNova is useful for checking that the kid isn't falling behind, but is worthless for differentiating kids near the top. 

 

ETA: IOW, on the SCAT he scored high enough for CTY's gifted program (both on verbal, and quantitative - almost at award level for quantitative), whereas on the TerraNova his scores just made him seem like a regular bright kid - his overall percentile score on it was 84th percentile.

Edited April 20, 2017 by luuknam

[SKL]

No need to turn in the AL card - he's 8 and doing BA 5, so, he's accelerated. 

 

 

 

The ceiling on the TerraNova is rather low, so, if you've got a kid who makes sloppy mistakes (looking at you, Celery), then the scores on the TerraNova are going to be less-than-impressive. Like, iirc on Math Computation Celery made 1 mistake last year, which dropped him to the 89th percentile for that, and similar kind of things with other subtests. He then also took the SCAT (because he magically managed to get every question in the vocab section right, so he qualified based on that), and scored at about the same level on the SCAT as on the TerraNova... but the SCAT was 5th grade, vs 3rd grade TerraNova. So, imo, the TerraNova is useful for checking that the kid isn't falling behind, but is worthless for differentiating kids near the top. 

 

ETA: IOW, on the SCAT he scored high enough for CTY's gifted program (both on verbal, and quantitative - almost at award level for quantitative), whereas on the TerraNova his scores just made him seem like a regular bright kid - his overall percentile score on it was 84th percentile.

 

Interesting!  I have been told my kid would need to get 98th %ile IIRC to get into the gifted program.  Last year she got 95%ile IIRC.  Maybe 98%ile is very hard to get even if you're smart?  Hmm....  Oh and yes, my kid makes sloppy mistakes - the easier the work, the sloppier.  :/

 

[wapiti]

My DS12 was as grouchy as the bear on the California state flag yesterday because he woke up before his usual wake up time :lol: Good luck on your son's placement tests. We are still looking for suitable high schools.

 

Two tests down, one more to go!  (he passed geom by a comfortable margin!)  Only problem is his current alg 2 class doesn't include trig, but the honors course he is trying to test out of does.  He knows up through Law of Cosines from geometry, but he will need some fast lessons beyond that - we have this weekend, that is all.  But, I think the required passing score is pretty low, so if he does very well on the rest, that may carry him over the line.  I feel like it's American Ninja Warrior, but with math, and he's two-thirds of the way through the obstacles lol.

Edited April 21, 2017 by wapiti

[Arcadia]

Two tests down, one more to go! (he passed geom by a comfortable margin!) Only problem is his current alg 2 class doesn't include trig, but the honors course he is trying to test out of does. He knows up through Law of Cosines from geometry, but he will need some fast lessons beyond that - we have this weekend, that is all.

Chapter 13 and 14 of this link which is a non-honors algebra 2 textbook. My California edition used copy has more pages but it is also on chapter 13 and 14 https://sites.google.com/a/gaston.k12.nc.us/jcsmithweb/home/textbook-pdf

[chiguirre]

I will try. I just have massive imposter syndrome when he doesn't perform to expectation. I feel like I need to turn in his AL card. I think it's doubly hard since I've always been a naturally great test taker (I study very little), so I just don't get how to help him.

 

The tests they give little kids aren't in the same ballpark as the SAT or ACT. Trinqueta didn't do particularly well on the achievement test she took in 4th grade. It was all over the place. OTOH, when she was in 7th grade and she did the SAT for Duke TIP, the typical test taking skills mattered a lot more and she did well. She even did well on the CR which we had decided was "too hard" and didn't prep for at all. The only thing she bombed was the written essay. Given her super slow handwriting (she's always typed her essays because her classes are online) I wasn't surprised.

 

The moral of the story is that it's likely your ds will even out and mature and improve his test taking when he's older. (And if I had to pick, I'd rather have a kid ace the SAT than the Cogat.)

 

ETA: Prep does matter. I think just prepping for the math helped Trinqueta learn how to do MC tests and boosted her CR score by 150 points too.

Edited April 21, 2017 by chiguirre

[Runningmom80]

This article might help.

Destination Success: Raising a Self-Actualized Adult not a Straight “A†Student https://www.gro-gifted.org/destination-success-raising-a-self-actualized-adult-not-a-straight-a-student/

 

"Some gifted children are simply not interested in academics. As a parent, it can be disillusioning to look at your child, who is capable of excelling in virtually any subject they choose, but lacks the motivation to perform in any subject at all. While there are many reasons, a gifted student may not thrive in an educational environment, in some cases, all the accommodations in the world, endless parent/teacher meetings, 504 plans, bribes, and threats, fail to make a difference. Frustrated and confused, parents and educators sometimes invest so much time and energy trying to find solutions to “school†problems, that they lose sight of the larger goal of raising the child into a capable adult."

 

I LOVE THIS!!!! 

 

This is my boy.  :)

 

We are homeschooling now because we value the freedom it allows our kids.  When I first started the answer was more along the lines of "He's just too smart and quirky for public school."  Now it's "I want him to have time to run around outside and make as much kid friendly hip hop music as his heart desires. (And I have similar answers for my twins.)

 

ETA: Posted too soon.  OP, I've been right where you are.  What has helped me is to look at my child, the one one in front of me, not the one the gifted articles said I should have, and really think about why we are doing this, and what I needed the scores for.  We did it for DYS and fell a few points shy.  Which is fine.  The scores don't change the kid. Some kids act like PG kids even if they don't score that way.  These tests aren't perfect but they are all that we have so take what's useful and leave the rest. :)  (And I know you know this but sometimes it's nice to be reminded.)

Edited April 21, 2017 by Runningmom80

[Runningmom80]

I will try. I just have massive imposter syndrome when he doesn't perform to expectation. I feel like I need to turn in his AL card. I think it's doubly hard since I've always been a naturally great test taker (I study very little), so I just don't get how to help him.

 

We all have imposter syndrome to some degree. You belong here, I for one won't let you leave!

[quark]

Monique, just poking head into the discussion to send you hugs. And hugs to anyone else who needs it too. Don't ever underestimate the power of asynchronous development. It is both a beast and a blessing depending on the situation. And don't be ready to label S in any way now while he is still figuring out who he is, how he fits and how he doesn't in this world. He is his own incredible young person. Celebrate his uniqueness and don't let a test dictate what to do...use it as a rough road map but don't let it GPS you to the final destination. Allow for twists in the path and detours. Sometimes detours on a road trip lead to the best adventures and most exhilarating views right? That's what our kids are...hidden mysteries that no test was designed to unearth. It's only with your love and guidance that this young person is going to blossom and thrive...not through what some test tells you.

 

My A had all sorts of test scores at that age in achievement. So many odd contradictions that I could not figure out. There are still so many contradictions I have yet to figure out. Huge, life changing things. It is going to be ok. Deep breaths.

 

:grouphug:

Edited April 22, 2017 by quark

[eternalsummer]

In my (limited to 2 kids) experience, screeners like the Cogat and KBit don't correlate all that well with full-scale tests (mine had the WISC). 

 

I am very familiar with imposter syndrome, though - the only cure I've found for it is time.  

[Arcadia]

Don't ever underestimate the power of asynchronous development. It is both a beast and a blessing depending on the situation.

...

So many odd contradictions that I could not figure out. There are still so many contradictions I have yet to figure out.

Still figuring out the asynchrony. Was whining for more than 2hrs on the phone to the SET counselor a few days ago. I am still dealing with my own asynchrony :P

 

CalDay is tomorrow and we will be in the East Bay in the morning for my kids' class. Not decided if we would go for CalDay after that. Have to see my hungry "grizzly bear's" mood.

 

ETA:

UCB's events seems to be mostly mornings and UCSC doesn't seem to have anything

Edited April 22, 2017 by Arcadia

[eternalsummer]

Also I have found, strangely, that while IQ tests and intelligence screeners reflect very broadly on potential achievement, a much more accurate measurement of ability is...what the kid can do (and willingly does, especially) on a daily basis.  If you've ever had IQ testing done for yourself, you can probably see this more intuitively than when assessing someone else, even your own kid.  

 

[katilac]

Just remember that he is the exact same kid he was before you had those results. If what you are doing was working for him before the results, it will keep on working after the results. 

[vonfirmath]

He knew he needed the 99% for Epsilon. I asked him how he thought he did, and he said, 'Great.' He wasn't anxious; if anything, he is overconfident, which is also typical of him. He doesn't seem to have the anxiety that I have, which vacillates between debilitating and motivating, depending on its severity that day.

 

I am much more like Regentrude's daughter. I was a good lawyer, not because I'm smarter than others, but because I'm typically so anxious that I try to control/anticipate everything and thus over-prepare. Of course, I also tend to wait until the last minute, so as to compound my misery. Lol. My son is much more like Regentrude's son, content with doing the bare minimum. He's a very confident kid.

 

Your son sounds like mine. and I'm more like you. It is frustrating.