Please explain the importance of an 'honors' designation

[lewelma]

I get that it means it was more rigorous.  But can't anyone just slap that title on a course?  If it weights your GPA, can't you just increase your GPA that way?  Seems like a system destined to be misused. If you don't designate courses as honors, can the admissions people figure this out on their own?  Would they even try to given how much they have to sift through?  Should you designate courses as honors for clarity?  Is there some generally recognizable criteria for the classification?  Just wondering. :001_smile:   

 

And just to be clear, I'm in NZ so there are no AP classes, and kids are basically not allowed to do DE.  So please don't focus on those ideas as they won't help me.

 

Thanks,

 

Ruth in NZ

Edited March 4, 2017 by lewelma

[Twinzen]

I belong to an umbrella school and honors can be applied to a class that uses a curriculum that is described as High School honors by the publisher. I hear that some colleges don't consider weighted GPA most of the time, but I don't have first hand experience. My oldest is a freshman.

[MerryAtHope]

I get that it means it was more rigorous.  But can't anyone just slap that title on a course?  If it weights your GPA, can't you just increase your GPA that way?  Seems like a system destined to be misused. 

 

I suppose it could be--but if we're talking honesty and truthfulness on transcripts, one could argue that there's always a sense in which the whole system could be manipulated or misused. I'd like to think that most people do their best to present honest transcripts though. 

 

I think the "rigor" of a transcript in one sense will show through by the variety of courses a student takes. And, the vast majority of the time, that rigor will also be backed up by standardized test scores like ACT and SAT, or any AP or CLEP tests the student takes. I think there's a whole picture that, taken together, tells a story. 

 

I don't think that admissions can tell from *just* a transcript whether a course was "regular" or "honors" without a designation though. It would take more detail (such as course descriptions) to do that. The difference between "Chemistry" and "Honors Chemistry" would not show just by listing "Chemistry" and a grade and the year it was taken, kwim? (Unless the grade was weighted--but then it would look weird to have a weighted grade without having the honors designation). 

 

There is some room for personal evaluation when it comes to the whole "honors" decision though, that isn't really standardized. Some people decide based on the course material and work. Some decide based on test scores like CLEP, AP, or SAT subject scores etc... If a student goes "above and beyond" in a subject, I think a parent should definitely consider the honors designation.

[lewelma]

That is very helpful.  So if I need to designate honors, what is the criteria I should use?  

 

Are all AoPS courses honors?

 

What about all second year science courses?  

 

In NZ, your grade is based on the level of your thinking rather than the percentage correct. This is a *very* different way of grading than in the USA (I have taught in both countries).  So comprehension is an Achieve, relational thinking gains a Merit, and insight and abstract thinking gains an excellence.  So basically, if you want an excellence you need to study the material in a more advanced way. This means that if you get an excellence, you have studied the material at an honors level. So do I award honors for all courses where ds has gained an excellence? 

 

How would you do honors mandarin?  My ds used what is considered the hardest university textbook, Boya? Does that mean honors?

 

And ABRSM (royal school of music) is considered a very rigorous program.  DS gained a top score in the city 2 years in a row.  Does that make his music performance honors? He is also in a trio and string group that is audition only through the university. honors?

 

What about a university class done in high school?

 

It seems to me that I can make almost anything honors based on some sort of reasonable criteria.  Is that what I'm supposed to do? (not aim to categorize everything as honors, but evaluate each course for rigor). I will say that from a New Zealander's perspective, it seems like padding the transcript. Probably a cultural thing, but just seems really odd. But if I have to do it to have my son's work evaluated correctly, I will.  I just need to know very specifically *how* to choose which courses are honors.

Edited March 4, 2017 by lewelma

[8filltheheart]

Before you overthink this too much, be aware that schools have their own formula. Kids are not compared direct transcript and gpa to others' direct transcript and gpa. Unis select whatever courses they deem core, unweighted and reweight according to their formula.

 

After researching the schools my Dd was applying to, I decided not to weight. I knew they would reweight anyway. I did label courses honors bc that is how they determined weight. If I hadn't labeled honors, she would have been at a disadvantage even though her work was beyond the norm. Honors mattered.

 

I based honors on what was accomplished compared to a typical avg classroom (and trust me, if you knew went in the classrooms here, you wouldn't even need to ask about AoPS.) I would suspect most of your ds's courses are honors. I do not know if music classes are given that designation or not, but if you think his are, give it that label. For example, many people say that there is no honors foreign language and no weight except AP bc that is how many schools do it. I gave my Dd honors bc I know what she was doing was not what goes on in an avg classroom. She was reading, listening, and writing beyond a classroom expectation.

Edited March 4, 2017 by 8FillTheHeart

[snowbeltmom]

 

 But if I have to do it to have my son's work evaluated correctly, I will.  I just need to know very specifically *how* to choose which courses are honors.

Fwiw, I didn't use the honors designation for any of the classes listed on my boys' transcripts.

[Julie of KY]

I choose not to call anything honors on my transcript. As soon as you label something like AoPS as honors, anything you don't label as honors looks "less rigorous". Along with my course transcript, I gave detailed course descriptions of every course.

 

I started second thinking myself as I read everyone else talking about honors, so I specifically emailed the Vanderbilt admission officer. She told me that weighted grades and honors classes are a good way for them to compare students WITHIN a school group. It lets them know if a student took the most rigorous classes available. She told me the it was meaningless on my homeschool  transcript to list honors as they will evaluate him based on my course descriptions. She said the same thing about a weighted GPA - not to bother.

 

I did state on my school profile where I talked about grading that no classes were listed as honors though many might be considered honors.

 

You might ask an admission officer. I wouldn't bother with an honors designation if I were you as you are trying to create artificial labels for your classes in society that doesn't use that designation. (I suspect most of his courses would be honors level as it is mostly a designation of working at a higher level than average).

[regentrude]

As a homeschooler, yes, you can slap the honors label on any course you want :)

If you count anything as honors, AoPS most definitely makes the cut.

 

There is no benefit in labeling college courses as honors. You can label it as a college course, and you can choose to give extra GPA points for college courses if you weight the grades.

 

FWIW, I have only reported unweighted grades and shown college courses as such, but not given them a GPA boost. Some colleges unweight weighted grades; some weight them with their own formula.

It becomes important for schools that give merit scholarships based on GPA. I have not seen any evidence that it increases admissions chances at highly selective colleges.

[8filltheheart]

.

It becomes important for schools that give merit scholarships based on GPA. I have not seen any evidence that it increases admissions chances at highly selective colleges.

This. You need to know the schools your ds is applying to and whether or not you are looking at only need-based aid (MIT) or competing for merit (Duke's Robertson) and whether or not they are going to reweight or relabel a homeschooler's transcript based on course descriptions. (I doubt they would generate an honors designation based on course descriptions and then weight. They would automatically weight DE credits for courses at a certain level.) I would want school specific answers before I made a definitive decision. (I am pretty sure my Dd would not be a Top Scholar if I hadn't labeled courses honors.) Edited March 4, 2017 by 8FillTheHeart

[JanetC]

Thanks for this discussion. I'm trying to decide about honors courses, too. I didn't mark any as honors for DD#1, but thinking about it for the second kid.

[Nicholas_mom]

Yes, this is very revelant discussion for US, too.  I spent yesterday looking at all different colleges and Universities to get some idea how to plan out the high school years.

 

I noticed that Princeton U. had the nicest and welcoming page for homeschoolers.  Anyway, Princeton is the only Ivy League school that I looked closely at for homeschoolers because they had a nice detailed page for them.  They recommend a detailed portfolio with detailed course descriptions and optional book list to go with the textbooks listed.  They also mentioned on the general admission site to do as many honors/advance type courses as possible during the high school years.

 

So, even if I put down "Honors" on the transcript, I will have to back it with a course description page of why honors.  In PA, there was an Homeschoolers Association, I forget the name, that said if you want to include honors on the transcript, you will have to back it up with a course that either used a College textbook in the homeschool or took a Duel Enrollment class or did additional work to constituted as college level work.

 

Anyway, I will go with the honors designation with detailed course description to go along with it when I do my son's transcript.   

[lewelma]

Wow!  This is way more complicated than I thought!  Now I have no idea what to do.  :tongue_smilie:

 

This thread seems to be helping a lot of other people so I'm going to start a new one so I can get advice on ds's transcript.

 

 

[Lanny]

I do not remember the details of the conversation, or email,  where I got this information, but, basically, TTUISD has a few courses they consider to be "Honors" courses.  As I recall, those courses do help with the GPA of the student.  DD is in Texas Tech University High School, so that is obviously something that is OK with the university. To the thread title, "please explain the importance of an "honors" designation"  I would think/assume that it must mean a course that is more rigorous than a normal course about that subject. 

[daijobu]

There's a fair bit of grade inflation, honors inflation, academic inflation in the US anyway.  Lots of students are showing up for colleges with high GPAs and honors classes.  If you feel your class is more rigorous than a regular class, then call is honors.  

[lewelma]

I need to put in some documentation somewhere that there is no grade inflation in NZ.  Only 10-15% of kids get As by design -- they curve until they get the proper percentages.

[regentrude]

I need to put in some documentation somewhere that there is no grade inflation in NZ.  Only 10-15% of kids get As by design -- they curve until they get the proper percentages.

 

The homeschool profile would be the place to explain this.

I do not, however, consider this terribly relevant, since his test scores will clearly show that he is a student in the top percentiles.

If his test scores are in the top 1%, it will then be expected that he is in the top 10% of NZ students - grade inflation or no. "Top 10% " would not get you into a selective college.

Edited March 5, 2017 by regentrude

[Aludlam]

There's a fair bit of grade inflation, honors inflation, academic inflation in the US anyway.  Lots of students are showing up for colleges with high GPAs and honors classes.  If you feel your class is more rigorous than a regular class, then call is honors.  

 

My stepson graduated from an average public school (500ish kids in his class) almost 3 years ago.  I was shocked to see that about half of the kids were designated as "graduating with honors".  

[Saddlemomma]

DD will be entering 9th grade next fall. I don't plan to apply "honors" or "AP" to any of DD's courses because we will be doing atypical classes and work compared to most others.  I just don't see the need, frankly.  DD's transcript will demonstrate her ability through the course descriptions and grade given (not weighted either).

 

For instance, we will be studying Ancient History next year.  This class will be pretty exhaustive because we are rolling Bible, Ancient Astronomy/Archaeoastronomy, and Lit into it.  DD will be reading Enoch, selections from the OT Pseudepigrapha, Enuma Elish, Enmerkar & the Lord of Aratta, Eridu Genesis, Sumerian King List, Gilgamesh, etc. chronologically, as we hit them in history and the Bible. In addition, she will be reading differing peer-reviewed opinions by academics (Dr. Michael Heiser, Dr. John Walton, Dr. Craig Evans, etc.) regarding the interpretations of these ancient manuscripts. She will need to analyze all the material and prepare compare/contrast essays of these myths with the Bible, how they impacted the cultures within the historical time frame, and how Astronomy influenced these myths.  She will further learn how Archaeoastronomy influenced the design of ancient cities and centers of power. All of her resources are college level.

 

Based upon how this will all be portrayed on her transcript, I don't feel we need to demonstrate the level of this course by applying additional appellations to it.

 

Just for the info and DE possibilities, I did call Lumerit Scholar Unbound to see how their system worked.  Basically, I wanted to know if we could design our own classes, have them evaluate the classes for dual-enrollment credit and produce our transcript.  I explained each class we'll be taking and the resources included.  I was told that we would have to enroll in their standard classes which, according to the customer service rep, were no where near the breadth, depth, or level of our classes.  He suggested we stick with what we are planning.

 

It's disappointing to me that DD will be taking college-level courses and not be able to get college credit for them, but, on the other hand, we're not attending public school for a reason.  These classes are what DD is interested in and enjoys.  That's far more important to us than a label.  

[Lori D.]

Just cross-posting my answer from a related thread on the college board: "Getting into college: did you mark "honors" on the transcript:

 

This is being bantered about on the HS thread... thought it might be nice to get some of the BTDT moms/dads that might not frequent the HS boards.

 

1. Did you designate Honors for advanced classes on your transcript?

 

2. Do you think it helped for either acceptance or scholarships?

 

3. If you didn't do it, do you wish you had?

 

Our situation (because, every student's unique situation and choice of school will greatly impact answers): after high school graduation, DS went to the local CC and earned an AAS and knocked out his gen. ed requirements before applying to and transferring to the university. Based on that, my answers:

 

1. No.

But we did do the Honors seal on the diploma to indicate overall GPA (which no one has asked for or seen  ;) ). Also, we did no weighted grades for the dual enrollment classes -- we went all unweighted.

 

2. No.

For our state's universities (public and private), I don't think Honors designation or weighted grades would have helped for acceptance, as the schools accept most applicants. As far as scholarships... dual enrollment or AP would have had a lot more weight than Honors. Other states and universities may be different.

 

3. No.

DS's extremely high GPA from the CC is what helped with transfer scholarships.

 

 

Just my overall impression of Honors: because "Honors" means something so very different from school to school, colleges have no standard for measuring what that actually means. I think colleges use national standardized test scores like ACT, and SAT for acceptance, and things like GPA, esp. a GPA backed by AP and dual enrollment (and possibly CLEP), to show advanced level of work for awarding scholarships.

 

However, I think there is nothing wrong with using Honors on transcripts to show higher level of work. I would just make it very clear in the "notes and explanations" section of the transcript what was meant by Honors (i.e., and AP course or dual enrollment or college level course), and would definitely state if using weighted/unweighted grading scale.

 

re: weighted/unweighted grades

I would probably show both the total GPA as weighted and unweighted. I understand that many university admission offices remove the weight and apply their own standardized grading scale to all incoming freshmen, so your weighted GPA may never be considered by the university. However, by having both the weighted and unweighted GPA on the transcript, at least the comparison is there on all of your student's official records, and may be noted by those awarding scholarships -- in other words, it can't hurt to do both.  ;)

Edited March 6, 2017 by Lori D.

[8filltheheart]

Following Lori's lead, here is my answer to Mirabillis:

 

I don't think there is a blanket answer to this question. I think you need to understand the schools your student is applying to and how your decision will impact them. For tippy top competitive schools, it probably does not matter. For students applying to less selective schools or public universities, it might matter quite a bit.

 

Many schools recalculate GPA based on honors, AP, DE designation for their defined core via their own formula. (Look up SRARs, self-reporting academic record, for an example.) Those formulas generate a number. I don't know how the number is used for sure, but I am assuming that it is some sort of baseline filter.

 

I read the post most recent post by thenposter stating that their student will be doing beyond high school work and will rely on course descriptions and not label courses honors. For some schools that might be ok. But, it is not an approach I would expect to work at all schools.

 

For example, my Dd was just awarded a top scholarship at an OOS flagship. That university states on their website that they reweight GPA according to course classifications. If I had not labeled her courses honors (which they most definitely were bc they were on par with college level work), I would have had to blindly rely that someone would have spent time reading her course descriptions and then independently making the decision that they were honors and give them weight as such. I would also have had to hope that they did that before dismissing her based on computer generated numbers based on a transcript that did not have any courses labeled honors. (Not sure why they would call them honors if I didn't.) That is not a chance I was willing to take. They accepted my designations and she was one to 20 kids to receive one of their top scholarships.

 

It is not a decision I would just make randomly without completely understanding the implications.

 

ETA: I did not weight her GPA bc I knew the schools she was applying to stated they would reweigh.

Also, in terms of Saddlemomma's post about college credit, it depends on the courses and the school. My Dd opted to not take any APs and her only DE class, stats, is this semester. She will, however, have credit for almost her entire freshman yr plus. She has been taking CLEP tests after finishing various subjects. We have been studying subjects in our own way and then she has studied for a few days and taken the CLEP exam. For French and Russian, she will test within their dept with their proficiency tester in order to place appropriately bc she is beyond placement level tests.

 

Neither one of us would change a thing about we approached her high school yrs.

[JeanM]

On the first draft of ds's transcript, we didn't label any homeschool courses as "honors". He has taken at least 3 classes per year at the local high school though, and many of those are labeled "honors". We decided it was ridiculous to have "honors English" that he breezed through with very little work, while some of his very rigorous homeschool classes were not labeled "honors". We didn't want to remove the "honors" from the public school courses to be consistent with the public school transcript that we submitted. So we added "honors" where we felt it was appropriate.

 

I have no idea if this was the right decision. He's still waiting to hear from most colleges.

[The Governess]

A couple questions:

 

If you were using an outside provider's syllabus that had both "standard" and "honors" designated scopes/sequences, and used the "honors" version, would you give the class an honors designation on the transcript?

 

What if you use multiple outside providers and their ideas of what constitutes honors work vary, or they simply don't use the designation even though the work is definitely at a high level? For example, Lukeion's Latin 3 is not called an honors class, but the Chinese 3 class offered by FLVS is designated honors. Putting both titles on my transcript, it would look like the Chinese class was taught at a higher level than the Latin class, which will definitely not be the case. Would you just report course titles for outside classes as stated by the provider and not worry about these nuances, or change the titles to provide some overall standardization, or provide some sort of clarification in the course description?

[mirabillis]

A couple questions:

 

If you were using an outside provider's syllabus that had both "standard" and "honors" designated scopes/sequences, and used the "honors" version, would you give the class an honors designation on the transcript?

 

What if you use multiple outside providers and their ideas of what constitutes honors work vary, or they simply don't use the designation even though the work is definitely at a high level? For example, Lukeion's Latin 3 is not called an honors class, but the Chinese 3 class offered by FLVS is designated honors. Putting both titles on my transcript, it would look like the Chinese class was taught at a higher level than the Latin class, which will definitely not be the case. Would you just report course titles for outside classes as stated by the provider and not worry about these nuances, or change the titles to provide some overall standardization, or provide some sort of clarification in the course description?

 

Good question!  What to do then?

[quark]

A couple questions:

 

If you were using an outside provider's syllabus that had both "standard" and "honors" designated scopes/sequences, and used the "honors" version, would you give the class an honors designation on the transcript?

 

What if you use multiple outside providers and their ideas of what constitutes honors work vary, or they simply don't use the designation even though the work is definitely at a high level? For example, Lukeion's Latin 3 is not called an honors class, but the Chinese 3 class offered by FLVS is designated honors. Putting both titles on my transcript, it would look like the Chinese class was taught at a higher level than the Latin class, which will definitely not be the case. Would you just report course titles for outside classes as stated by the provider and not worry about these nuances, or change the titles to provide some overall standardization, or provide some sort of clarification in the course description?

I reported outside honors labelled classes as honors because I felt it better to report them as called by provider. I did not label AoPS work as honors because AoPS doesn't call their classes honors. The only school we have heard back from is Cal though.