Religion and LGBTQ

[abba12]

And I DO empathize because my daughter is working through this issue as my husband and I love her fiercely and want her HEALTHY.  We're conservative Christians and you would not believe how hard it is to find anyone (not from church) who will love her like we do, enough to say that she needs help and not a shopping trip to the men's department or a binder for her breasts.  I'm not being snarky--we ONLY hear about how it will help her to give in to what her brain is saying against the truth of the body she has. Other than that, the Christian community hasn't much to offer, either. (Although we certainly aren't sharing this with many people and she doesn't want to.)  I sincerely hope that changes.  This is how we love someone but not the sin, as cliche as that phrase is.  My daughter's brain is simply lying to her--people with other disorders have brains that do this, too, myself included--and I can't support the idea that one must base an identity on a lie.  It doesn't help that she hates her female body because of endometriosis and rotten periods, etc., too.  She has found such strength in finding other women who LOVE their bodies through this issue rather than hating it.  There IS help; we're going to find it.

 

PMed you.

[bettyandbob]

I just remembered that I saw a young girl that is lesbian at a memorial service this weekend. She sat in front of Dh and me. Memorial service was for an elderly sister of our congregation....this girl brought a girl with her and I heard it was her girlfriend. She seemed out of her mind . I am pretty sure she was on drugs. I went to offer her Kleenex but my friend next to me beat me to it.

 

So there is a homosexual I have had limited contact with.

For her to come to your congregation for memorial, it must have been a difficult decision. It must have been someone very important. It could have positive or negative in importance. So she could easily have been displaying a range of emotions based on her relationship with the person who died. Additionally, for some people funerals and memorials are emotional triggers.

 

I think it is a huge leap to assume she was on drugs based on what you said.

 

Additionally, some people do drink or take drugs to get through a highly stressful event. This is not good decision making and it doesn't help, but it is a stressed response.

 

Neither having highly emotional behavior nor being under the influence of a drug to deal with stress are unique to homosexuality.

 

It sounds like this person left your church some time ago. Coming to it had to have been extremely difficult because she left under horrible circumstances and add in the stress of the memorial itself.

 

Your example is not actual interaction with a person who is gay.

 

If you interact with the world you are probably meeting gay people all the time. Your DS and DSS go to public school. In all likelihood, there are a few gay teachers. My DC had gay teachers at the high school they attended. The only thing that mattered was their ability to teach their subject, which they did well. My knowing of their sexuality only came up because I know some of them outside of school.

[TranquilMind]

It is interesting to me that so many on this board strongly encourage going no contact with family who are difficult or emotionally abusive. Your MIL gives your kids sweets against your wishes? Cut her off!

 

But Holy Cow don't cut off anyone who lives contrary to your moral code.

That is ironic, isn't it.   You see that scorched earth policy all the time here with reference to annoying relatives.

[TranquilMind]

A poster asked you if you felt gender identity was a choice and I responded to your answer to that question. I don't care that you weren't addressing me personally.

That's fine for you to jump in anywhere, but you responded as if my response was an intended personal affront to your son.

 

​I'm not talking about your son or anyone else.  I was talking about just a general category of sin.  That's it.    

[Scarlett]

For her to come to your congregation for memorial, it must have been a difficult decision. It must have been someone very important. It could have positive or negative in importance. So she could easily have been displaying a range of emotions based on her relationship with the person who died. Additionally, for some people funerals and memorials are emotional triggers.

 

I think it is a huge leap to assume she was on drugs based on what you said.

 

Additionally, some people do drink or take drugs to get through a highly stressful event. This is not good decision making and it doesn't help, but it is a stressed response.

 

Neither having highly emotional behavior nor being under the influence of a drug to deal with stress are unique to homosexuality.

 

It sounds like this person left your church some time ago. Coming to it had to have been extremely difficult because she left under horrible circumstances and add in the stress of the memorial itself.

 

Your example is not actual interaction with a person who is gay.

 

If you interact with the world you are probably meeting gay people all the time. Your DS and DSS go to public school. In all likelihood, there are a few gay teachers. My DC had gay teachers at the high school they attended. The only thing that mattered was their ability to teach their subject, which they did well. My knowing of their sexuality only came up because I know some of them outside of school.

She was definitely on something. And she didn't stop attending under horrible circumstances.

 

My son has been homeschooled. His first experience with public school has been this year, 1/2 day vo tech. His teacher is not gay and ds hasn't Indicates any classmates are, but he wouldn't necessarily mention it.

 

I am sure I interact with customer all the time who are gay and I just don't know it. Not sure what your point of that is though.

[TranquilMind]

I read comments in this thread that illustrate just how emboldened some Christians are to eschew facts that don't conform to their beliefs. If the only Christians wandering around were the homeschoolers on this forum, I wouldn't much mind it so much, but there are literally millions of you. I'm surrounded. My gay kid is especially surrounded in the city in which they go to college. Thank goodness the college itself is very inclusive and supportive because there's simply no way to know which Christians are hostile and aggressive and feel justified in violence until after you get yelled at, punched in the face, or tied to a rural fence post and left to die. 

I feel exactly the same way watching the demonstrators in the last week.  There is no way to know which ones will snap and punch you in the face. 

 

I don't see any Christians doing this.  Ones who are "hostile and aggressive and feel justified in violence" are Christian in the same way that Hitler was supposedly Christian.  Kind of missing the point, don' t you think?     

 

I haven't heard of a Matthew Shepard case since...Mathew Shepard. 

[TranquilMind]

If you think homosexuality is a sin it is automatically labelled as hateful.  There is no room for discussion in this matter  It is stated as fact and must be believed as such. The expectation for us conservative Christians is that we need to evolve in our thinking and fall in line fast with that belief and then the world will be a better place.  We are not allowed to be vocal in this opinion without facing backlash.  This is an example of a deep ideological divide that is worsening. 

 

Where are the studies that prove conclusively that homosexuality is a biological fact?Or do researchers just feel strongly that it is and are still looking for proof.

This, exactly. 

[bettyandbob]

No one said cut off your MIL for too many treats. People limit contact when someone is undermining their parenting. Too many sweets is just part of the whole picture for some one limiting contact. It may be part of a whole agenda of "you don't have to do everything mommy says". 

 

Sweets by itself is not the issue. My kids learned early on there were different standards at grandma's and grandma was mostly about fun. 

 

My father had had a very close relationship with my oldest when oldest was very young. It was incredibly special with ds spending long hours in granddad's shop starting at age 2, learning woodworking and later spending long hours learning golf. Gradually, my father was disappointed in oldest not growing into the image my father had for oldest. It was explained in detail the range of issues ds had. However, if it had been my father's choice depression, anxiety, and add would have been dealt with with very severe punishments. My father never acted on his opinions, but he did begin telling ds he was a failure as a person starting in middle school. ds wanted desperately to continue his relationship with his grandfather. My father lives a half mile away and ds would visit on his own accord. Eventually my father took to just berated ds on everything that was wrong with ds. It was incredibly damaging to ds. My father attacked every aspect of ds's identity that ds felt was important. Despite living nearby we do not spend holidays with them.

 

Are you saying that it's wrong to avoid contact with someone so incredibly verbally abusive. 

 

I don't think anyone cut off MIL over cookies. I almost cutoff my mom over cookies because she refused to believe celiac was real or learn about food ingredients, even though she had accompanied me to the ER with my dd after 7 siezures in one day (neurologist thinking this was an over reaction is another story). Seizures led to celiac diagnosis and my mom knew this. 

 

Look at the whole picture, not "too many sweets."

[TranquilMind]

So you have some sins that you see as human mistakes but this one is wholly umreconciliable.

 

I understand you. I just disagree with you. Your position is as immoral and repugnant to me as the mere existence of gay people is to you.

No one said it is not reconcilable.  But the precondition of being reconciled is that one has repented. 

 

​All these things listed are sins, but somehow we have to treat this one differently and say that it cannot be helped so it must not be sin.   

Edited January 24, 2017 by TranquilMind

[TranquilMind]

It not only doesn't make sense, it's insulting. You're telling me my child is abusive by virtue of their refusal to capitulate to your personal sexual standards. If you don't have a reason for such an accusation, I'd appreciate your retracting that.

 

Whoa, where did she say anything about either your child or "her personal sexual standards"?

 

​She didn't say anything about your child, and I'm pretty sure she is advocating adherence to biblical standards, not her own standards. 

[FaithManor]

Ya, there is a big difference between cutting off a grandparent for too many sweets which is rather absurd if that is the only issue, and cutting off my male dna donor for calling my very responsible, very precious son "a waste of human flesh whom god will torture for all eternity and I will be happy about it while enjoying heaven".

 

Rather startling difference there. 

 

The last time that I remember someone on this board considering going no contact with an inlaw was when the grandmother knew her husband had molested the grandson and thought it was no big deal and was mad that the family didn't want to let her husband around the child.

 

Good grief!

 

 

 

[TranquilMind]

I'm growing tired of the, "...but I wasn't talking about YOUR kid" line. Who is it you think you are talking about? The LGBT community includes many of our children and loved ones. They are real people.

Can one not talk about an idea or a political/personal group without others taking personal offense as if it is a personally leveled attack at them (even though we don't know you personally or your circumstances)? 

 

​I can.  People blast things I believe or adhere to all the time on this board in mocking and mean-spirited ways, and no one is talking about anyone that way here.   

 

My personal internal response when they talk about me or my "group of identification" (whoever that is at the time of discussion):  "They just don't know any better."

Edited January 24, 2017 by TranquilMind

[Lady Florida.]

I just remembered that I saw a young girl that is lesbian at a memorial service this weekend. She sat in front of Dh and me. Memorial service was for an elderly sister of our congregation....this girl brought a girl with her and I heard it was her girlfriend. She seemed out of her mind . I am pretty sure she was on drugs. I went to offer her Kleenex but my friend next to me beat me to it.

 

So there is a homosexual I have had limited contact with.

 

Maybe she was out of her mind with fear. That was a brave thing she did coming among people who feel as they do about who she is. Maybe she was truly grieving for the person who died. Why did your mind immediately jump to being pretty sure she was on drugs?

[Lady Florida.]

 His teacher is not gay and ds hasn't Indicates any classmates are, but he wouldn't necessarily mention it.

 

 

 

How would he know? I was not sheltered and there were several gay people among my mother and step father's group of friends. I knew gay people growing up. And yet, I worked with 4 teachers and 1 administrator for 6 years before I realized any of them were gay. One was my immediate supervisor (the assistant principal in charge of exceptional ed. teachers) and one I shared a classroom with, so I worked closely with those 2 people. The others I saw frequently in the teacher's lounge. Your son would not likely know who is gay and who isn't unless they choose to tell him. Not all gay men are effeminate and not all gay women are masculine. In fact, most don't fit the stereotypes. 

[Scarlett]

How would he know? I was not sheltered and there were several gay people among my mother and step father's group of friends. I knew gay people growing up. And yet, I worked with 4 teachers and 1 administrator for 6 years before I realized any of them were gay. One was my immediate supervisor (the assistant principal in charge of exceptional ed. teachers) and one I shared a classroom with, so I worked closely with those 2 people. The others I saw frequently in the teacher's lounge. Your son would not likely know who is gay and who isn't unless they choose to tell him. Not all gay men are effeminate and not all gay women are masculine. In fact, most don't fit the stereotypes. 

 

 

Well, he has a wife and children, so there is that.  Of course there is no way to know who is truly gay unless they choose to reveal it. 

[Scarlett]

Maybe she was out of her mind with fear. That was a brave thing she did coming among people who feel as they do about who she is. Maybe she was truly grieving for the person who died. Why did your mind immediately jump to being pretty sure she was on drugs?

 

 

I don't know why it is so difficult for you guys to believe that I can tell when someone is high.  She was grieving I am sure.  But she was also on something.

[Scarlett]

To your first line:  I think there are many parents who do NOT get this and it is hurting children.  On one hand, they will say that cultural gender stereotypes should be avoided and who cares what colors and toys our children like?  But they will use those exact stereotypes as reasons to encourage some kind of transition because it's all so fluid.  It's a disconnect.  (Not all parents are doing this, but I think most of us have seen stories where parents seem to be transitioning their child and even convincing him or her way before genuine dysphoria can be called upon.)

 

The other issue that makes it difficult for parents is that we must rely on medical and mental health communities who may or may not have missed the boat on how to best treat this disorder.  (Yes, disorder.)  There is so much we do not know yet experts and the culture speak in definite terms.  Where do parents and children go when BOTH want counseling for the mental health aspects in order to NOT live a disordered, transgender life?  Not many in those two expert communities feel free to pursue that option without being criticized harshly for not working towards transition.  And it doesn't even have to be religious reasons at ALL.  In how many books, tv specials and doctors offices do we hear the stories of those who REGRET transitioning?  Where were their stories in the National Geographic issue recently??  It's like that doesn't ever happen or those poor people have just been pressured to go against their true selves and that's just crap.

 

And I DO empathize because my daughter is working through this issue as my husband and I love her fiercely and want her HEALTHY.  We're conservative Christians and you would not believe how hard it is to find anyone (not from church) who will love her like we do, enough to say that she needs help and not a shopping trip to the men's department or a binder for her breasts.  I'm not being snarky--we ONLY hear about how it will help her to give in to what her brain is saying against the truth of the body she has. Other than that, the Christian community hasn't much to offer, either. (Although we certainly aren't sharing this with many people and she doesn't want to.)  I sincerely hope that changes.  This is how we love someone but not the sin, as cliche as that phrase is.  My daughter's brain is simply lying to her--people with other disorders have brains that do this, too, myself included--and I can't support the idea that one must base an identity on a lie.  It doesn't help that she hates her female body because of endometriosis and rotten periods, etc., too.  She has found such strength in finding other women who LOVE their bodies through this issue rather than hating it.  There IS help; we're going to find it.

 

 

 

I too believe our  brains can lie to us.  I am so sorry your child and family is going through this and I hope you can find some help.  Once the medical/psychology field determines a certain course is best it is seen as crazy to go against their advice.  So I know you must have trouble finding someone to help you. 

[Janeway]

OK, I do want to add something here, about the posts that have said children have been getting labeled according to the colors they like, or toys, or activities, that absolutely does happen. I am 100% for LGBTQ rights and equality, so I am not saying this as someone who is against people. I do feel people are born how they are in this. HOWEVER, during the course of raising my children, one of my older boys asked for a toy kitchen when he was 3 yrs old for Christmas. I was completely reamed for it by my husband's non-Christian relatives that it would turn him gay so do not buy him that. Later, when my son was doing ballet and other parents found out, they banned their kids from playing with my son and even went so far as to have their children switched classrooms to keep their kids away from my son. The kids still liked my son and played with him at recess, but then could not ride bikes home with him because they were not allowed to be seen with him. AND, when I posted about it on a different message board, not here, I got bombarded with messages from people insisting he needs to be placed on hormones immediately, at 7 or 8 yrs old, until he decides what gender he is and then people calling him a she. Just because he wanted to do ballet!!! Hormones will mess with a child and possibly even change their sexual preferences. You cannot pump someone full or hormones and then claim they are becoming whatever they naturally wanted to become. People came forward to tell me how they put their children as young as 6 yrs old on hormones. Doctors actually allow that.

 

In the 70's, there was a big push to make sure girls could play with Legos and cars and boys could play with dolls and kitchens.  Now, in 2010's, society has fallen back decades and now, boys can no longer play with dolls or cook, or like art, and girls better not play legos, or cars, because no "real boy" or "real girl" does things outside of their reset gender stuff or they MUST be LGBTQ.  Ironically, I just turned on PBS. They are showing a group of kids playing dress up on Daniel Tiger's neighborhood. All the kids playing dress up are girls and the boys are off in the corner with trucks or cars or something. So much for gender equality. I do not like this at all. It is not ok. Let me make it clear what I am saying... I believe LGBTQ is ok, but I do not think labelling a child because he wants to play with a doll or do ballet is ok. No child should be labeled in any way before puberty and even then, the child needs to be the one to choose the label, not dumb adults who think real boys don't do ballet.

[Mergath]

I just remembered that I saw a young girl that is lesbian at a memorial service this weekend. She sat in front of Dh and me. Memorial service was for an elderly sister of our congregation....this girl brought a girl with her and I heard it was her girlfriend. She seemed out of her mind . I am pretty sure she was on drugs. I went to offer her Kleenex but my friend next to me beat me to it.

 

So there is a homosexual I have had limited contact with.

 

First of all, stop referring to them as "homosexuals" like this is Britain in the 1930s or something. The only people who use the word that way use it in a derogatory manner. It would be like me continually referring to you as a bible-thumper rather than a Christian. And yes, I'm sure you'll act like you can't understand what could possibly be wrong with calling gay people "homosexuals," but it had to be said. Again.

 

Second, you haven't even had limited interaction with her if literally everything you know about her is via gossip or you making wild leaps about her based on her behavior at a memorial service. Interaction generally refers to, you know, actually sitting down and talking to someone.

[Scarlett]

First of all, stop referring to them as "homosexuals" like this is Britain in the 1930s or something. The only people who use the word that way use it in a derogatory manner. It would be like me continually referring to you as a bible-thumper rather than a Christian. And yes, I'm sure you'll act like you can't understand what could possibly be wrong with calling gay people "homosexuals," but it had to be said. Again.

 

Second, you haven't even had limited interaction with her if literally everything you know about her is via gossip or you making wild leaps about her based on her behavior at a memorial service. Interaction generally refers to, you know, actually sitting down and talking to someone.

 

 

I said I had limited contact.  I didn't say I interacted with her.

[Mergath]

I hope for your child's sake they can get real, competent help before you and your religious "help" drive them to suicide.

 

Amen. It's terrifying to see posts like that one, knowing how high the suicide rate is for trans kids whose parents don't accept them. I hope that poster reconsiders her ideas before it's too late.

[Mergath]

I said I had limited contact.  I didn't say I interacted with her.

 

Sorry, I misread it. Still working on my first cup of coffee. But still, if all you've done is basically look at the back of her head in a church and assume she's on drugs, I wouldn't even count that as limited contact.

 

Hey, I know. Why don't you actually talk to her sometime? Maybe you'll find that she's not the drug-using devil-worshipper you'd think.

[Scarlett]

I hope for your child's sake they can get real, competent help before you and your religious "help" drive them to suicide.

 

 

Amen. It's terrifying to see posts like that one, knowing how high the suicide rate is for trans kids whose parents don't accept them. I hope that poster reconsiders her ideas before it's too late.

 

I read that they are trying to get help from the medical and psychiatry community.  Not the church.

[Mergath]

OK, I do want to add something here, about the posts that have said children have been getting labeled according to the colors they like, or toys, or activities, that absolutely does happen. I am 100% for LGBTQ rights and equality, so I am not saying this as someone who is against people. I do feel people are born how they are in this. HOWEVER, during the course of raising my children, one of my older boys asked for a toy kitchen when he was 3 yrs old for Christmas. I was completely reamed for it by my husband's non-Christian relatives that it would turn him gay so do not buy him that. Later, when my son was doing ballet and other parents found out, they banned their kids from playing with my son and even went so far as to have their children switched classrooms to keep their kids away from my son. The kids still liked my son and played with him at recess, but then could not ride bikes home with him because they were not allowed to be seen with him. AND, when I posted about it on a different message board, not here, I got bombarded with messages from people insisting he needs to be placed on hormones immediately, at 7 or 8 yrs old, until he decides what gender he is and then people calling him a she. Just because he wanted to do ballet!!! Hormones will mess with a child and possibly even change their sexual preferences. You cannot pump someone full or hormones and then claim they are becoming whatever they naturally wanted to become. People came forward to tell me how they put their children as young as 6 yrs old on hormones. Doctors actually allow that.

 

In the 70's, there was a big push to make sure girls could play with Legos and cars and boys could play with dolls and kitchens.  Now, in 2010's, society has fallen back decades and now, boys can no longer play with dolls or cook, or like art, and girls better not play legos, or cars, because no "real boy" or "real girl" does things outside of their reset gender stuff or they MUST be LGBTQ.  Ironically, I just turned on PBS. They are showing a group of kids playing dress up on Daniel Tiger's neighborhood. All the kids playing dress up are girls and the boys are off in the corner with trucks or cars or something. So much for gender equality. I do not like this at all. It is not ok. Let me make it clear what I am saying... I believe LGBTQ is ok, but I do not think labelling a child because he wants to play with a doll or do ballet is ok. No child should be labeled in any way before puberty and even then, the child needs to be the one to choose the label, not dumb adults who think real boys don't do ballet.

 

You must understand that neither of those reactions are normal, right? Shunning a kid for wanting to play with a kitchen, and telling someone to put a young child on hormones for liking ballet are both crazy and don't really have anything to do with the conversation about trans kids.

 

And I don't think society has fallen back decades. Thanks to the prevalence of conservative Christianity in this country, American society has never been in a place where it's okay for boys to wear dresses. But we've come a long way, and I hope that someday we'll get to a place where we no longer have ideas about appropriate behavior based on gender.

 

[PeachyDoodle]

So for those in faith traditions that encourage cutting oneself off from those that do not believe as you do or live as you do, or require it, or practice shunning and excommunication, what is that process like when cutting off your own child? Are you allowed to care for the child until the age of majority or are you to excommunicate at the first sign of non conforming? If before the child is able to be independent, do you try to find a home, or is homelessness an encouraged form of punishment for non compliance? Is any notice given to the child or is it immediate? Does he/she get to take anything from the home, a photo, clothing,food? Genuinely curious of what this process looks like.

 

I realize this may not be directed at me, but as the one who brought up excommunication, I just want to point out that excommunication and shunning are NOT the same thing.

 

Excommunication -- as the word implies -- means that you are barred from receiving the sacrament of communion (the Lord's Supper). Many sacramental Christian traditions teach that only those who are penitent (i.e., confess that they are sinners in need of God's mercy) are allowed to receive the sacraments (namely, baptism and the Lord's Supper, although different traditions may add others to this list). Again, this is to benefit the person in question, not the church, both to encourage the sinner to repent and also to protect them -- St. Paul is clear that taking communion in an unworthy manner can literally kill you.

 

Absolution, or the pronouncement that God forgives us our sins, is also withheld. It only makes sense that the church would not pronounce forgiveness for a sin that the person in question does not believe is sinful and (obviously) is not asking God's forgiveness for. Forgiveness is an all-or-nothing proposition -- St. James tells us that if we have broken one commandment, we are guilty of them all.

 

Discipline in these ways should only be practiced after sincere and loving counsel from God's Word, explaining the nature of the sin, what God's Law says about it, and urging repentance. Discipline is ONLY allocated to the church, as an institution, not to the family, nor to individuals. That is why it is inappropriate for parents to refuse fellowship to (i.e., shun) their children in these instances. (I agree, as someone pointed out above, that distance may be warranted in cases where it is necessary to protect others from real harm, but that's a matter of protecting innocent parties -- including ourselves -- not in an attempt to force repentance.) We can still speak truth to those we love, encourage them to repent and believe in Christ for the forgiveness of their sins, but we continue to love and serve them, knowing that they are beautifully created in God's image, and that Christ bled and died for them, as he did for us.

 

I realize that church discipline is abused routinely, but I'm responding to the question raised here as to what my tradition teaches -- and this teaching is in line with the Word of God.

[Scarlett]

Sorry, I misread it. Still working on my first cup of coffee. But still, if all you've done is basically look at the back of her head in a church and assume she's on drugs, I wouldn't even count that as limited contact.

 

Hey, I know. Why don't you actually talk to her sometime? Maybe you'll find that she's not the drug-using devil-worshipper you'd think.

 

 

I don't know why you are always so angry at me.  But please stop putting words in my mouth.  I never said anything about her being a devil worshipper Never thought it, never said it.  I also don't have any gossip about her. I know who she is from when she attended a wedding I attended about 3 years ago.  She had a girl with her that my husband told me was her girlfriend, but I don't know that for fact.  I don't care.   I observced a young girl very strung out on something.  Maybe it was legal drugs, I don't know.  And I didn't intentionally not talk to her.  I don't know her and by the time the service was over she was out the door and there were 200 people there so it was very crowded.  You always always assign the worst  behaviors and motives to me. 

[Mergath]

I don't know why you are always so angry at me.  But please stop putting words in my mouth.  I never said anything about her being a devil worshipper Never thought it, never said it.  I also don't have any gossip about her. I know who she is from when she attended a wedding I attended about 3 years ago.  She had a girl with her that my husband told me was her girlfriend, but I don't know that for fact.  I don't care.   I observced a young girl very strung out on something.  Maybe it was legal drugs, I don't know.  And I didn't intentionally not talk to her.  I don't know her and by the time the service was over she was out the door and there were 200 people there so it was very crowded.  You always always assign the worst  behaviors and motives to me. 

 

I go by what you tell us in regard to your behaviors and motives.

 

As far as my opinion of you, let's just say that it has something to do with you feeling the need to comment profusely on every single LGBTQ thread despite thinking gay people are an abomination you could never, ever befriend, just so you can get in another dig at the gay and trans people on this board. I mean, we all know what you think of us. You really don't have to keep posting it in these threads over and over and over. If you have no interest at all in changing your thinking on this subject, just stay out of the threads. Why is that so hard? Do you think your god is going to punish you if you miss an opportunity to let someone know how sinful the gay is? Believe me, we know. Stand down. Take a day off.

[Paige]

People have been telling her (and me) that she needs to go with how she feels (and the mental solution that she must really be a boy) and THAT is her "true self."  I disagree that her mind or brain is correct in this assumption.

 

Anorexic people's minds convince tell them that they are fat when they are not.

Anxious people's minds tell them that everyone hates them or that there is always something to fear.

Depressed people's minds tell them that there is no reason or hope for living.

Narcissists' minds tell them that they are better and more important than everyone else.

People who self-mutilate believe their own minds that cutting and disfiguring *eases* their pain.

 

And on and on.  I don't mean for this to sound like I think she is possessed or something.  lol  I just think that our minds can get tripped up in how it reconciles fears, discomfort, confusion, anguish, etc. and come to the wrong conclusion about what needs to be fixed--or NOT fixed.

 

By the way, any argument that this isn't like other disorders because transgender people aren't hurting anyone else doesn't hold water with me.  The suicidal person isn't technically hurting anyone else.  And anyone who thinks that they can resolve their disorder by removing or adding body parts and undergoing hormone treatments that their bodies were not meant to have, can't understand that they ARE hurting someone.  (Or they don't care, but I don't think that's usually the case.)

 

Allowing an anorexic to quit eating leads to death.

 

Untreated anxiety, allowing them to live in fear, leads to suicide, unhappiness, fear (duh), loss of productivity, and very bad things.

 

Untreated depression leads to suicide and outcomes similar to that of untreated anxiety.

 

Living a life as a narcissist leads to harm to other people and a life of unfulfilling relationships and loneliness.

 

Cutting/self-mutilation can cause infection and accidents which lead to death. Not treating those conditions all lead to Very Bad Things.

 

Gender dysphoria, leads to very bad things if untreated as well. However, unlike the other conditions listed, listening to the brain of the person with gender dysphoria, and believing it, leads to a reduction in the likelihood of those very bad things happening.

 

As for your daughter, I am sorry that you are going through such a sensitive, troubling, difficult time. Nobody here knows her or can say what she needs. I encourage you to listen to her and support her as she works through these issues for herself. From what I've heard, she isn't sure yet if she's transgender, so it would be premature to say she should transition. IMO, however, if there's such a huge range of people who are physically intersexed, it's not a stretch to say the brain can be mismatched as well. We have people with the genotype of a man and the phenotype of a woman. People with the appearance of men, but with the internal organs of women. We even have children born looking like females whose bodies become male at puberty with no intervention! Why couldn't that mismatch also exist from birth within the brain? Again, I can't comment as to any individual's situation, and I do believe there are children who are unsure of their gender, or who perhaps don't fit either gender very well, but I encourage you to not limit her options.

 

[Scarlett]

I go by what you tell us in regard to your behaviors and motives.

 

As far as my opinion of you, let's just say that it has something to do with you feeling the need to comment profusely on every single LGBTQ thread despite thinking gay people are an abomination you could never, ever befriend, just so you can get in another dig at the gay and trans people on this board. I mean, we all know what you think of us. You really don't have to keep posting it in these threads over and over and over. If you have no interest at all in changing your thinking on this subject, just stay out of the threads. Why is that so hard? Do you think your god is going to punish you if you miss an opportunity to let someone know how sinful the gay is? Believe me, we know. Stand down. Take a day off.

 

 

The OP was not directed to gay and trans people.   And many many more people than the gay and trans people on this site on on this site reading.  You post your feelings and I post mine.  I am not angry at you.  Not sure why you have to be angry at me for having a different belief system than you do.

[Mergath]

The OP was not directed to gay and trans people.   And many many more people than the gay and trans people on this site on on this site reading.  You post your feelings and I post mine.  I am not angry at you.  Not sure why you have to be angry at me for having a different belief system than you do.

 

What does that have to do with anything? There are straight people who read this so it's okay to bash gay people? Right. :huh:

 

And seriously, you KNOW why your "belief system" irt to the LGBTQ community pisses everyone off. So please stop acting like you're so very confused about what you could possibly have said to offend anyone.

[Scarlett]

What does that have to do with anything? There are straight people who read this so it's okay to bash gay people? Right. :huh:

 

And seriously, you KNOW why your "belief system" irt to the LGBTQ community pisses everyone off. So please stop acting like you're so very confused about what you could possibly have said to offend anyone.

 

 

I am not bashing anyone. 

[Mergath]

I am not bashing anyone. 

 

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

Okay.

[Janeway]

Seriously. And has anything else in the world ever inspired such hatred, such judgment, such destruction as this religion? I think it has overstayed its welcome. Time to make up a new religion based on principles of love and compassion and not hateful judgment this time.

Yeah, another religion has. The one that dangles gay people from roof tops and drops them or beheads them or locks them in cages and burns them to death. If I had to choose between conversion therapy or being dropped from a roof top, the conversion therapy is less violent.

 

But seriously, I just wanted to know where in the bible it says it is ok to exclude gay people, not about bashing Christianity. I know plenty of gay people who are Christians and did not have these issues. Then I moved to the south and have seen this. Wanted to know if I was missing anything. I did not ask about the Koran or Qu'oran, I am unsure how to spell it, and what it says about being gay. But now I would like to know. I want to know if those violent acts against gay people is a fundamental part of Islam or if it is just an extreme thing kept to some groups.

[Veritaserum]

WRT medical transition for transgender minors, I can speak from the experience of a parent. My child came out as transgender at age 14. He was always trans, but he'd never had the word to describe his experience before. I raise all my children to play with whatever toys they want and pursue whatever interests they have. This child was never "feminine" in the way our culture expects girls and women to act or dress or play. I didn't care about that. I also didn't wonder if he was transgender. I categorized his interests and preferences as "tomboy" (which is typically a culturally accepted gender non-conforming designation).

 

Puberty triggered a massive mental health break-down. I know from experience that many teens have difficulty with the new surge of hormones, but my child's experience was very nearly deadly. I sought help from medical and mental health professionals. When my child came out about his sexual orientation, I thought, "oh, maybe that's why this has been so rocky" (we live in a very conservative community that is active in restricting rights for the LGBTQ population). Then he was bullied at school about it (someone he trusted had shared the info). Then he was suicidal. Then I pulled him out because the school refused to do anything. Then he told me he was questioning his gender identity. Then I found a psychologist who delved into that with him. The end result was a diagnosis of gender dysphoria.

 

Two years later, at 16.5 years old, was when we started hormone therapy. The doctor would not have started treatment without the mental health professionals' recommendation (we switched to another therapist last year) that it was likely to be helpful in my child's case. And it has been. After two months of treatment, my child feels more comfortable in his own body. He's less anxious and less depressed. He's eating more. He's interacting with people more. It's a very positive change.

 

I would never recommend someone jump immediately to hormone therapy. There are risks and the risk/benefit analysis must be weighed carefully with a particular patient in mind. I'm also skeptical that there are many doctors who would agree to hormone therapy without a clear and persistent case of gender dysphoria.

[Bluegoat]

I think these conversations are so predictable.    And while I expect certain kinds of fundamentalists to have simplistic views on everything, after all anyone that wants to have everything broken down to that level is going to run into trouble, it's just as bad on the other side. 

 

Sure, animals can engage in same-sex activity, and there is evidence that is suggestive of why that can occur in humans as well.  OTOH, there are cultures and instances where same sex activity is near universal, and others where it is near unknown.  There are also significant variations in how it is thought of in different cultures even when there are no taboos involved.

 

Yes, sexual orientation seems to be important to our sense of self-identity.  OTOH, it seems in some other cultures that there aren't even categories that allow it to be conceptualized as part of identity and it isn't important.

 

Yes, not only is gender dysphoria really felt by people, but we can see some physical evidence why it may occur, at least for some instances. Does that mean gender is a cultural overlay only, or biological but separate from sex, or that our perception of gender and sex combined may not be influenced (strongly or weakly) by our cultural environment?  Does it mean we should accept brain over the rest of the body, or the other way round, or neither? Or both? If that comes out of a developmental abnormality or blip, should we try and prevent it happening if we can?  Or is that an offence against identity? Most of these questions are not answerable by evidence or science alone and depend on ideological positions, no matter what position you hold.

 

Yes, there are Christians who think that people can easily decide about their sexual attraction, or that to have certain sexual attractions is immoral in itself.  OTOH, you also have orthodox Christians who are gay but choose to be celibate for theological reasons, who are theologically sophisticated and scientifically literate, who aren't expecting or even wanting to somehow magically change into heterosexuals, who may not think sexual orientation should be seen as important to identity, and who believe that sexual attraction, like most other feelings people have, comes from within. 

 

[quark]

I too believe our  brains can lie to us.  I am so sorry your child and family is going through this and I hope you can find some help.  Once the medical/psychology field determines a certain course is best it is seen as crazy to go against their advice.  So I know you must have trouble finding someone to help you. 

 

Bolded = exaggeration. I was responding to the emphatic use of the word "disorder" by this poster. 

[Ravin]

OK, I do want to add something here, about the posts that have said children have been getting labeled according to the colors they like, or toys, or activities, that absolutely does happen. I am 100% for LGBTQ rights and equality, so I am not saying this as someone who is against people. I do feel people are born how they are in this. HOWEVER, during the course of raising my children, one of my older boys asked for a toy kitchen when he was 3 yrs old for Christmas. I was completely reamed for it by my husband's non-Christian relatives that it would turn him gay so do not buy him that. Later, when my son was doing ballet and other parents found out, they banned their kids from playing with my son and even went so far as to have their children switched classrooms to keep their kids away from my son. The kids still liked my son and played with him at recess, but then could not ride bikes home with him because they were not allowed to be seen with him. AND, when I posted about it on a different message board, not here, I got bombarded with messages from people insisting he needs to be placed on hormones immediately, at 7 or 8 yrs old, until he decides what gender he is and then people calling him a she. Just because he wanted to do ballet!!! Hormones will mess with a child and possibly even change their sexual preferences. You cannot pump someone full or hormones and then claim they are becoming whatever they naturally wanted to become. People came forward to tell me how they put their children as young as 6 yrs old on hormones. Doctors actually allow that.

 

In the 70's, there was a big push to make sure girls could play with Legos and cars and boys could play with dolls and kitchens.  Now, in 2010's, society has fallen back decades and now, boys can no longer play with dolls or cook, or like art, and girls better not play legos, or cars, because no "real boy" or "real girl" does things outside of their reset gender stuff or they MUST be LGBTQ.  Ironically, I just turned on PBS. They are showing a group of kids playing dress up on Daniel Tiger's neighborhood. All the kids playing dress up are girls and the boys are off in the corner with trucks or cars or something. So much for gender equality. I do not like this at all. It is not ok. Let me make it clear what I am saying... I believe LGBTQ is ok, but I do not think labelling a child because he wants to play with a doll or do ballet is ok. No child should be labeled in any way before puberty and even then, the child needs to be the one to choose the label, not dumb adults who think real boys don't do ballet.

 

Families with a child who they decide to socially transition don't do so for the kind of issues you describe with your son (i.e., gender nonconforming interests), but for consistent, insistent, and persistent expressions of being the gender not assigned at birth. "I'm a girl" is not the same as "I'm a boy who likes toy kitchens and ballet."

 

Also, children do not get placed on hormones. Some transgender children are placed on hormone blockers, which delay puberty while they figure themselves out. If they continue down the path of a transgender identity, this allows HRT later in their teens, and if not, blockers can be stopped and they can proceed with puberty corresponding with their biological sex. This is not a measure that is taken with all transgender children, and certainly not with children who are gender nonconforming but still clearly identify as their assigned gender!

 

The first step for helping a child who may be transgender, or who is dealing with social difficulties because they are gender nonconforming, is to find a competent gender therapist who works with kids to help. Blockers are not the first step. Social transition of the child is not the first step. Neither of those is a step that should be taken without a lot of thought and professional consultation, based on what random people on the internet have to say about it.

 

The best way to deal with gender nonconforming children is to let them BE THEMSELVES and follow the child's lead about what that means, whatever that looks like, without pushing the gender binary at them (either way, by telling them that if they like X they must be transgender, or that they aren't allowed to like X because they are their assigned gender).

[Ravin]

I read that they are trying to get help from the medical and psychiatry community.  Not the church.

 

Quacks who put a religious paradigm before evidence-based medicine count as religious help, not competent professional help.

[Bluegoat]

You must understand that neither of those reactions are normal, right? Shunning a kid for wanting to play with a kitchen, and telling someone to put a young child on hormones for liking ballet are both crazy and don't really have anything to do with the conversation about trans kids.

 

And I don't think society has fallen back decades. Thanks to the prevalence of conservative Christianity in this country, American society has never been in a place where it's okay for boys to wear dresses. But we've come a long way, and I hope that someday we'll get to a place where we no longer have ideas about appropriate behavior based on gender.

 

 

I think there is a fair bit of confusion in popular culture around gender issues at the moment.  There seems to be a few ideas being held together at the same time, that probably come from different viewpoints originally.  In my parenting group, for example, there are quite a few members who are offended by culturally determined gender conventions (like colours, say) and also think that gender and sex are independent or largely independent from each other.  But OTOH they believe children eventually identify with a gender (or as non-gendered or non-binary or something else) and that this somehow reflects who they are in an essentially way - and this is often expressed as being biological. 

 

So it comes out as this weird mix - it is ok to accept an express an identity, but not ok to have cultural conventions around even unimportant things like colours or hairstyles.  It is questionable to let your daughter have a Barbie but if your son wants one it is questionable not to give it to him.  If a child wants to strongly identify with biological sex its just cultural propaganda, if he or se identifies against biological sex its a reflection of inner self.  

 

There are at least two and possibly three of four different viewpoints on these kinds of questions being represented, but its like different bits and pieces from each have been picked out as important and evidentially true, by the same people.

[Ravin]

Yeah, another religion has. The one that dangles gay people from roof tops and drops them or beheads them or locks them in cages and burns them to death. If I had to choose between conversion therapy or being dropped from a roof top, the conversion therapy is less violent.

 

But seriously, I just wanted to know where in the bible it says it is ok to exclude gay people, not about bashing Christianity. I know plenty of gay people who are Christians and did not have these issues. Then I moved to the south and have seen this. Wanted to know if I was missing anything. I did not ask about the Koran or Qu'oran, I am unsure how to spell it, and what it says about being gay. But now I would like to know. I want to know if those violent acts against gay people is a fundamental part of Islam or if it is just an extreme thing kept to some groups.

 

Christianity does not get a pass on the violence towards us compared to Islam. Evangelical Christian missionaries and churches have been encouraging draconian laws in Africa which call for execution or long prison sentences for LGBTQ people for decades. 

 

Plenty of Muslims (including pretty much any I've ever actually met in person) have a live and let live attitude towards LGBTQ people, at least as long as it's not someone in their own faith/family, much like many conservative Christians. In many ways as a whole the religion is not in the same place as Christianity--the mainline schools of thought have not moved as far along the easing up that more Christian denominations are doing. But the extreme conservative end, looked at globally? Both awful. 

[bibiche]

Yeah, another religion has. The one that dangles gay people from roof tops and drops them or beheads them or locks them in cages and burns them to death. If I had to choose between conversion therapy or being dropped from a roof top, the conversion therapy is less violent.

 

But seriously, I just wanted to know where in the bible it says it is ok to exclude gay people, not about bashing Christianity. I know plenty of gay people who are Christians and did not have these issues. Then I moved to the south and have seen this. Wanted to know if I was missing anything. I did not ask about the Koran or Qu'oran, I am unsure how to spell it, and what it says about being gay. But now I would like to know. I want to know if those violent acts against gay people is a fundamental part of Islam or if it is just an extreme thing kept to some groups.

Ah, so we have moved from gay bashing to bashing Islam. Noice.

[Greta]

The question has been raised at least a couple of times already (by Page and Ravin, if memory serves):  for those who feel that transgenderedness is a disorder of the brain similar to body dysmorphic disorder, why the assumption/conclusion that the disorder is in the brain and not the body?

 

I hope that someone who believes that will share their reasoning on this, because I am genuinely trying to understand and work through some of these questions myself.  (Just so you know where I'm coming from:  I am a Christian.  I do not believe that being LGBT is sinful.)

 

The uncomfortable reality that we theists have to deal with is that God "allows" people to be born with disordered, malfunctioning bodies.  Babies get born with deformities so severe that they live very short, very painful lives.  Children get born with combination of genes that cause them to die of cancer or any number of other diseases before they reach adulthood.  And so on.  My point being, we know quite well that human bodies are not born perfect.  They don't just decay and degenerate with age, sometimes they arrive already deeply and profoundly flawed.

 

So, given that, it seems to me to be just as possible that the sex of the body is wrong, as it is to believe that the mind's perception is wrong.  How are we to know which it is?

 

I feel that I can't know, I can't answer that question.  So I would like to hear how others have answered that question for themselves.

 

(But I can imagine what I would do if it were my child.  I have a lot more confidence in a successful outcome, by which I mean a happy, healthy child, from honoring the mind's perception than I do in a successful outcome from trying to change the mind's perception.)  

 

[Spryte]

*deleted quote in case you decide you want to delete later, and I don't see the request*

 

I wanted to thank you for sharing the above.  A deep, deep thank you.  It is so helpful to read other family's experiences.  

 

I am so happy that your kid has parents like you.   :grouphug: You rock.

[quark]

The best way to deal with gender nonconforming children is to let them BE THEMSELVES and follow the child's lead about what that means, whatever that looks like, without pushing the gender binary at them (either way, by telling them that if they like X they must be transgender, or that they aren't allowed to like X because they are their assigned gender).

:001_wub:

 

(Edited to delete unnecessary comment)

Edited January 24, 2017 by quark

[TranquilMind]

It's cowardly. It's cowardly to speak out against gays, to call them sinners, to say " oh, but as long as they don't act on it", etc.

If you, in general as well as specifically, say these things here-- you are saying them about the children here. It is a personal offense. Why should you be able to hide behind the walls of this board? If you can say things like this-- you should be able to 'man up' and admit that yes, you are addressing these children here.

It's easy. Make it your New Year's Resolution to speak your mind. When I see asinine crap here, I've got no problem calling people out on it!

 

It is not cowardly to hold and or speak a scriptural position even if it is newly unpopular.   In fact it takes more guts to stand up than to just go with the politically correct flow where everyone will love you and approve every word out of your mouth. 

 

But then Jesus warned of this in Luke 6:22-23 (and elsewhere): "Blessed are you when men hate you, and when they exclude you and revile you, and cast out your name as evil, on account of the Son of man! Rejoice in that day, and leap for joy, for behold, your reward is great in heaven; for so their fathers did to the prophets.

 

Your assertion of cowardice is false.   You are pulling out the old argumentum ad populum and bandwagon fallacies

 

It's the same sort of fallacious reasoning seen when other topics are discussed.  Take abortion, for example.  If it is wrong( to kill a baby), then it is wrong no matter who is doing it, and how many are doing it, and how long it has been done.    Or slavery (though on that one, we have come to agreement at least in this country, after a century or so of fighting over it).      

 

[Greta]

Ah, so we have moved from gay bashing to bashing Islam. Noice.

 

 

Bibiche, I normally love your posts, but in this conversation you have really thrown me for a loop.  You said:

 

And has anything else in the world ever inspired such hatred, such judgment, such destruction as this religion? I think it has overstayed its welcome. Time to make up a new religion based on principles of love and compassion and not hateful judgment this time.

 

If Janeway was bashing a religion by answering your question, then weren't you bashing a religion by posing it in the first place?

[Lang Syne Boardie]

It is not cowardly to hold and or speak a scriptural position even if it is newly unpopular.   In fact it takes more guts to stand up than to just go with the politically correct flow where everyone will love you and approve every word out of your mouth. 

 

But then Jesus warned of this in Luke 6:22-23 (and elsewhere): "Blessed are you when men hate you, and when they exclude you and revile you, and cast out your name as evil, on account of the Son of man! Rejoice in that day, and leap for joy, for behold, your reward is great in heaven; for so their fathers did to the prophets.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Excepting you are taking the position of the oppressed, when the topic is the oppression of somebody else...in the context of this thread, it would be the LGBTQ youth who would need comforted by the reminder that Jesus loves them even when the religious people cast them out and call them evil.

[Veritaserum]

Okay, stop the bus. Let's talk about Jesus in the New Testament. He criticized the church and its leaders and its laws. He reached out to the marginalized--the ones society and the church ignored or vilified. He said to love. Period.

 

The Christian persecution complex (and I was raised in a sect heavily steeped in this) is absurd. Actual persecution (i.e. physical, emotional, or legal harm) is experienced FAR more often by queer people in America than by Christian people in America. Someone disagreeing with tenets of your Christian faith while not actually preventing you from following those tenets is NOT persecuting you. On the flip side, conservative Christians try (sometimes successfully) to limit the ability of LGBTQ individuals to peacefully live their lives with the same opportunities as everyone else. When's the last time someone tried to make your heterosexual marriage illegal? Or said it was fine for someone to evict you for being straight? Or fire you for being cisgender? Or murder you and get off on charges because you're a freak who deserved to die?

Edited January 24, 2017 by Veritaserum

[bibiche]

Bibiche, I normally love your posts, but in this conversation you have really thrown me for a loop. You said:

 

And has anything else in the world ever inspired such hatred, such judgment, such destruction as this religion? I think it has overstayed its welcome. Time to make up a new religion based on principles of love and compassion and not hateful judgment this time.

 

If Janeway was bashing a religion by answering your question, then weren't you bashing a religion by posing it in the first place?

Yes, I suppose you are right. But my conversations with non-Christians are normal whereas my (Internet) observations of conservative Christians as well as my occasional real-life interactions with them lead me to believe that they are terribly judgmental and hate-filled. We study a lot of Conquest materials here, and have personal experience with the current Conquest going on in Latin America, so I won't pretend that this doesn't color my view of these Christians.

 

I am not religious. If I were inclined to be, I would never, ever, ever, in a million years choose to be Christian. It frustrates me to no end when I see people justifying unjustifiable behavior based on some book written centuries ago. It frustrates me to no end that children in America are not educated as well as they could be because of this book and this religion. They aren't taught things because it might encourage them to question their own beliefs. So we wind up with a nation of people who not only can't think for themselves, but are taught to be unkind. :(

 

I do apologize. I know that many good people are Christians and I am sorry to lump them all together. It just makes me sad that so much time and energy is wasted justifying this with such-and-such passage, and this with another and there is so much nonsensical fighting about it. You know how most people view ancient religions, astounded that people would actually believe in it, in those gods? I am sorry to say that that is how I view Christianity. And if all Christians were good, peace loving people who celebrated all people and believed that all people were entitled to the same rights and respect, it would be one thing and I could not believe myself but at least think "well, sure, it's a fairytale, but it is a nice one." But when Christians continually mistreat others and hate and divide, sorry, but I have had enough and I can't let it go without saying anything anymore.

 

Again, my apologies to good and kind believers.

Edited January 24, 2017 by bibiche

[Guest]

This thread is veering towards blanket condemnations of entire groups. (Yea, even "conservative Christians" are not a homogeneous entity.) Please refocus back towards discussing specific statements and authored positions rather than making general statements about entire swaths of the American demographic. Thanks.

 

SWB