What it a "good" education?

[IfIOnly]

I think if my kid is educated enough to be successful in college entry courses after high school graduation, should they choose that path, I've done well. The end. YMMV, of course.

[Guest]

I guess Devil's advocate is not the person to be.

 

If a person has doubts, coming to these boards is not the place to get reassurance, support, and encouragement. I don't buy into College is the only way theory for all kids. There are many other paths and many other definitions of success other than making big $$ and having lots of stuff. Was hoping to get that point across.

Can you point out the majority of posts you're seeing that say these things?

 

I can think of three or four posters who bang the college+high paying drum with regularity. Everyone else, notsomuch.

 

Your examples weren't kids who are good at other things, or expressions of doubt...They were all harbingers of intellectual disabilities.

 

Like I said...You asked what ppl would tell ppl with those questions. Which isn't rhetorical, ppl do get those questions answered. And my answer was: keep going.

Edited January 17, 2017 by OKBud

[Carrie12345]

 

 

Will she go on to college?  Depends on what she ends up wanting to pursue as a career.  

 

 

I just wanted to make sure everyone has a second chance to see that.  :) 

 

I love the push back against college for all, but there are still many careers for which college is a must. I'm not about to gamble on all 5 picking non-college careers.  (Well, the oldest is already attending, so I guess I'd only be gambling on 4?)

[SparklyUnicorn]

I guess Devil's advocate is not the person to be. 

 

If a person has doubts, coming to these boards is not the place to get reassurance, support, and encouragement. I don't buy into College is the only way theory for all kids. There are many other paths and many other definitions of success other than making big $$ and having lots of stuff.  Was hoping to get that point across.

 

In a way I guess one does need a thick skin to wade through the advice.  I don't think many people who come off that way quite intend to. 

 

I have a very capable kid who doesn't want to do 10,000 APs, take all major college entrance and subject tests, and "hope" that our local superintendent grants us a letter of equivalency (we are in NY so this is something specific in NY).  So he would like to take the GED at 16 and enroll full time at the CC then transfer.  This is a kid taking calculus at 14 (almost 15).  Probably he could kick butt at the other stuff.  People of course crap on that idea.  Which I think is ridiculous.  I have no doubt it'll work out to be a perfectly good thing for him.  He wants more than anything to be done with high school and move on.  This will allow him to do that. 

 

So I agree with you.  Some people do seem to be very unsupportive if your goals don't look like theirs.  I don't know if they mean it as harshly as it comes across though.  I am leaning towards generally no because them talking about their experiences of what they are doing doesn't equal that they disapprove of other ways of doing things.  And if they do?  Welcome to the real world.  People do that. 

 

And as a homeschooler, at least I, have had years of practice dealing with disapproval.  Some people flat out don't like the idea of homeschooling.  I don't really care. 

[Carrie12345]

I guess Devil's advocate is not the person to be. 

 

If a person has doubts, coming to these boards is not the place to get reassurance, support, and encouragement. I don't buy into College is the only way theory for all kids. There are many other paths and many other definitions of success other than making big $$ and having lots of stuff.  Was hoping to get that point across.

 

I'm truly sorry you feel that way.

In all my time here, I've found the vast majority of advice to be grounded and balanced.  Including when I was going overboard (and should have listened better.  I drowned my poor kid in the beginning of this year.)  People don't always tell me what I want to hear here, but thank goodness for that!

[Carrie12345]

 

 

I have a very capable kid who doesn't want to do 10,000 APs, take all major college entrance and subject tests, and "hope" that our local superintendent grants us a letter of equivalency (we are in NY so this is something specific in NY).  So he would like to take the GED at 16 and enroll full time at the CC then transfer.  This is a kid taking calculus at 14 (almost 15).  Probably he could kick butt at the other stuff.  People of course crap on that idea.  Which I think is ridiculous.  I have no doubt it'll work out to be a perfectly good thing for him.  He wants more than anything to be done with high school and move on.  This will allow him to do that. 

 

 

 

Literally LOL, because that's the path ds has taken, and we all regret it!  But I still believe it's an awesome path for the right kid!  ;)

[SparklyUnicorn]

I'm truly sorry you feel that way.

In all my time here, I've found the vast majority of advice to be grounded and balanced.  Including when I was going overboard (and should have listened better.  I drowned my poor kid in the beginning of this year.)  People don't always tell me what I want to hear here, but thank goodness for that!

 

mmm I don't quite feel that way, but maybe that's my interpretation.  Certainly the advice was not balanced.  Then again if only 10 people answered, it's hard to get balanced.  There are a lot more than 10 homeschooling families out there who are in a similar boat.  They just don't all post and read here I guess.

 

This is not to say I haven't gotten a ton of good advice!

[SparklyUnicorn]

Literally LOL, because that's the path ds has taken, and we all regret it!  But I still believe it's an awesome path for the right kid!  ;)

 

So what do you regret about it?

 

If this is too OT, would you PM me?

[BlsdMama]

I read threads like the one going on right now, and wonder if I'm doing enough?  

 

I'd love a list that I could check off.  An "if your kid can knows x stuff, and has y skills you are good to go" sort of list.  As it is, I feel like I just have to put my faith in a curriculum, or wing it, and hope I know what I'm doing.  Is the IOWA a good measure?  

 

What other measures are there?

 

 

Are you only counting the academic stuff? ;)

 

A good education is one that both equips and inspires your child to learn and to love learning, encourages curiousity, and equips them for future endeavors.  It is an education that doesnt close doors to their future because they didnt get the same basic education as their peers in traditional school.

 

Honestly, I think it is appropriate to say, since we are on TWTM forum, that the book really does lay out a rock solid education - and a multitude of tools to get there.

 

The Iowa has been a decent measure for my kiddos in the middle/later years (the Iowa Test of Basic Skills in elementary and the Iowa Test of Educational Development in high school) but also realize that my dyslexic kids scored low (25%-50%) in their early years if/when I had them take it (and it wasnt every year.)

 

And, as one of these posts cant go by without my mantra, Read, read, read, read.  You cant read enough to your kids and they cant read enough.  I honestly believe there is nothing you can do better for your kids than read to them and to make them read.  Yeah, I said make.

 

(*As always, forgive the lack of apostrophes and quotation marks.  Im convinced Ill find that key somewhere.)

[BlsdMama]

The other thread is stressing me out. I am pretty confident many of you would disapprove of our level of homeschool efforts. I struggle because I feel I don't have what it takes to give the kids what they need and I live in a public school district that no one I know and respect locally would ever send their child to. And for the record I'm not comfortable at all with it either, but can't afford private and got berated by the local charter school administrator when I tried to apply there (there's a thread on here when it happened).

 

Feeling pretty hopeless right now.

 

Cate - I think youd be surprised at what I do and dont do. It is less about the quantity and more about the quality.  Its also about making sure your ducks are in a row before moving forward.  Ive seen moms over the years keep pushing forward before basics are mastered (reading or math) because they didnt want to seem behind.  That is always a mistake.  Always IMO.  

 

I cant remember how old your oldest is -- I was thinking she is my Sarahs age, eight.  Sarah spends her days reading a LOT, she also gets read to a fair bit or listens to audio books.  We do IEW Fun and Fascinating, but as I am not perfectly consistent,  we are not where we should be in it, iMO.  I have her read a lot of things - SOTW, sciencey books, historical fiction, biographies.  We read wide, we read deep.  Because shes younger in my group, she hears books that are above her grade.

 

Sarah does math for fun right now.  We have several little workbooks but we dont do more intense formal math until she is ten.  She is working on her math facts online.  I believe in rote memorization.  Sometimes we memorize things.  Sometimes we dont.  Our under ten group here is pretty relaxed.  My goal (and potentially because I have 50% dyslexics) is to get them reading, reading well, and reading a LOT.   

 

 

 

That thread stressed me out a bit too. My questions:

 

What do you do if your kid doesn't do well on tests of any kind?

What do you do if it doesn't matter how much/how hard you've worked with your kid they still can't get past elementary school math (basic operations, decimals and fractions)?

What do you do if you've gotten your child to read but the comprehension levels aren't there?

What do you do if you realize your kid is not college material?

What do you do if you realize that your kid isn't even CC material?

What do you do if you realize that your kid may be suited for working at a cash register all their life?

What do you do if your kid is not interested in book studies? What if they are more driven toward art, working with their hands, food?

What if your kid has no drive?

What if? What if? What if?

 

There are a lot of people out there who struggle so much in homeschooling. We do our best, we try our hardest. We're juggling kids, homeschooling, part or full-time work and making sure our kids can at least get a job one day if not go to college. A lot of us have given up the college dream for one or more of our children because we know, it's not happening. There are those out there who are doing a lot too. And if you have that kid who can do it, that's great. But a lot of us drew different cards in life. And we have to work with what we're given and some times it's not a lot. 

 

And I know there is educational neglect that happens. And drugs and alcohol or abuse aren't always the reason behind. Some people are lazy. But I think the majority of us on here and the majority of people who are out there trying to homeschool their kids are really trying.  They may fail or their kids may fall short. But we're trying.  And that should really be worth something.

 

So if you feel bad about that thread or any other---Don't. You're doing the best you can.

 

 

So I totally realize that youre listing questions as a whole, not just about a child you have, etc., but lets talk about if a parent has those questions.  If you (the generic, not the specific) have these questions you are probably looking at a child who is not NT and who struggles or who has given up rather than struggle.  This kid is HIGH at risk.  They guess that the general population is 20% dyslexic - that is one in five.  But they estimate the prison population to be HALF dyslexic - that is 1 in 2.  Let that sink in for a minute.  When a child is LIMITED because of his dyslexia and/or education, some succeed.  But there is NO glossing over that many fail.

 

It is one thing to have your child in the public school because you are not equipped or capable (or willing) to take on a basic education.  It is another entirely to watch them flounder, toss your hands in the air, and do nothing. 

I truly, honestly, completely, and fully believe that an AMAZING education can be given to a child on an insanely low budget.  A library card and a bus pass would be a good place to start.  Selling the tv for the money for an old first edition Saxon text would be the second.  Conversation is vital - - - about EVERYTHING.  And finding a place to get outside.  This is the perfect, IMO, elementary education.  

 

(As an aside, this is all not pointed at PinkMint, because, well, she is one my favorite people, but to a far more generic homeschool mama.  I actually suspect PinkMint is hard on herself with expectations and is doing great.  One of my close friends is so like her - she really thought she was never doing enough and she BOGGLED my mind by what she does on a regular basis.)

I just think if you are seeing those struggles that the rest of us HAVE TO BE LOUD about get an evaluation.  Or at least interlibrary loan Shaywitz book and see if this is your kiddo.  These kids - if they arent taught to read and read well, this is totally lost potential.  Many of them have ADHD as a co-existing factor.  It is the perfect storm of epic failure for their lives and it just doesnt have to be.

 

 

 

Yeah you know, I follow a homeschool mom on instagram. Read her blog for a long time. One day recently she casually mentioned that she has a (I assume) paid homeschool assistant. This assistant just so happens to have appeared in zero of the many posted photos of homeschool days.

 

Nothing wrong with it. Sure wish I had the means to do something like that but it's a good reality check. Here I was comparing myself to her thinking our circumstances were similar. And they're definitely not.

 

Um, an assistant?  Yeah, definitely not the average mama, lol.  But if you find one who will work for free, I would take her. :P :D  We could even share.  Definitely not our circumstances here either!!

 

I see. I still think that certain things you said in here would be red flags that the child has an LD or an intellectual disability, even if it were only one item on your list. Every person who is neuro-typical and has some exposure can learn all basic math handily before their teens, for example. If someone were teaching them and teaching them but the child is simply not comprehending or learning it at all, there's something wrong. It is normal to learn skills with daily exposure. If learning is not happening despite exposure, I would adsume this child needs assessment o find out why.

 

For other things you mentioned: child is really into art or good at building - I know a thing or two about this. I have no problem with my kid becoming an auto mechanic or a carpenter or a chef. My husband works in a blue collar field. However! I am still aiming my kids high; if they have the ability, there's no reason they can't be an auto mechanic or a chef with a bachelor's degree. Studies also indicate that the people who possess a bachelor's are more likely to be financially stable, even if they are "just" in a field they could have had without a bachelor's. It also tends to be better on other measures such as the kinds of friends you make and who you choose as a mate.

 

So, basically, I don't care about the what ifs. I'm aiming high for my kids. If they don't make it as high as I was aiming, at least it won't be because I sold them out at 12 and conceeded that they "only need to be a chef anyway" or (God forbit, for daughters) "just need her to be a good wife and at-home mom." Nothing wrong with being an AHM, but I DON'T want it to be because they had no other options because I failed to equip them.

 

Those questions are definitely red flags and if anyone here is reading this with those flags, scoot over to the LD board here and ask them.  We have some AMAZING mamas over there.

 

Quill, you nailed it.  I would encourage ALL my daughters to be at home mamas - there is nothing like the gift and blessing of being able to be at home with your children and doing this life stuff.  That said, I think some of the primary cause here is fear.  I know there are people who limit their daughters options (through education) so that they WILL stay home.  What a shame.  Its saying - only dumb moms stay home.  Really, think about that.  It gives that subliminal message that we will limit your education so that the only option is staying home.  I dont know about you, but the message I want to give my daughters is that strong, capable, bright women can CHOOSE to stay home with their children.  These moms have options but they CHOOSE to home educate because it is more important, more valuable, more necessary than a paying job.  

 

My job isnt to hold tight to my babies.  My job is to equip and inspire them for their life.  Their life is not an extenuation of my life.  Their relationship with the Lord is not an extenuation of my life.  They are their very own souls with their very own call on their lives.  Who am I that I think that I can or should override the Holy Spirit or that I know what the Lord has planned for their life?  Limiting because of fear is sheer arrogance.

 

Equip.  Inspire.  Show them something beautiful and equip them to understand it and to share with others and give them eyes to see.

 

 

 

I guess Devil's advocate is not the person to be. 

 

If a person has doubts, coming to these boards is not the place to get reassurance, support, and encouragement. I don't buy into College is the only way theory for all kids. There are many other paths and many other definitions of success other than making big $$ and having lots of stuff.  Was hoping to get that point across.

 

I do NOT believe college is the only way.  Not even close.  But I also know, with a kiddo who is a senior in college and three more teens currently, that we simply do NOT know what is to come or what will be.  My DS could barely read by age ten and it was not a lack of trying.  He is almost 18 now.   He scored a perfect 36 on the Reading section of the ACT and he is professionally diagnosed moderately dyslexic.  He serves on honor society, is receiving his Eagle Scout, and has a 3.48 college GPA with 31 credits so far. (He is retaking the C that drug that down, lol.)  We are hopeful the team he is on will make it to Mock Trial Nationals this year. (The team won it last year, but he was on a junior team last year.) 

 

Ad I think what if I had looked at that kid at 11 and decided,  you know what - he just isnt cut out for college.  I will stop striving SO hard to teach him to read, I wont insist that he read 2-3 hours a day, I wont insist he read hard books, I wont read to him. He just isnt cut out for college.   What a wretched shame that would have been.  Hes exceptionally bright and capable.  His dyslexia taught him to strive even harder.  It gave him some degree of compassion for what others do.  His learning disability had the potential to shape him.  INSTEAD, it was OVERCOMING his learning disability that has shaped him.

He will be attending the flagship U in the fall, living at home, and majoring in Engineering.  I have zero doubts he was made to go further.  He amazes me.  This isnt a brag post.  This is to give you a real life example of a kid that really could have gone either way.  (And also to say I didnt do anything amazing.  We just pounded reading for YEARS and read, and read, and read.) This was a kid with a disability.  This was a kid who didnt look like he was cut out to be academic.

 

But lets talk about the what-ifs.  What if he got to age 18 and didnt WANT to go to college?  What if he gets to 18 and he wants to do something else?  Military, or something with his hands, or something artistic, etc?  AWESOME!  But then it wasnt ME deciding his fate.  It was fully his choice, not because of any limitation placed UPON him, but because he HAD choices and this is what he chose.  Does that make the difference more apparent?  I actually hope that NONE of my children get caught up in soul destroying materialism.  But, just because a person has a well paying job or an incredible education does not make one more or less godly, more or less ethical, or give one more or less joy in life.  Some people use great jobs and great incomes to bless and serve others.  Its a heart thing. ;)

 

 

And, for the record, I really struggled with this for years.  I think its why I feel so emphatic about it?  

 

(*As always, forgive the lack of apostrophes and quotation marks.  Im convinced Ill find that key somewhere.)

[Scarlett]

In a way I guess one does need a thick skin to wade through the advice.  I don't think many people who come off that way quite intend to. 

 

I have a very capable kid who doesn't want to do 10,000 APs, take all major college entrance and subject tests, and "hope" that our local superintendent grants us a letter of equivalency (we are in NY so this is something specific in NY).  So he would like to take the GED at 16 and enroll full time at the CC then transfer.  This is a kid taking calculus at 14 (almost 15).  Probably he could kick butt at the other stuff.  People of course crap on that idea.  Which I think is ridiculous.  I have no doubt it'll work out to be a perfectly good thing for him.  He wants more than anything to be done with high school and move on.  This will allow him to do that. 

 

So I agree with you.  Some people do seem to be very unsupportive if your goals don't look like theirs.  I don't know if they mean it as harshly as it comes across though.  I am leaning towards generally no because them talking about their experiences of what they are doing doesn't equal that they disapprove of other ways of doing things.  And if they do?  Welcome to the real world.  People do that. 

 

And as a homeschooler, at least I, have had years of practice dealing with disapproval.  Some people flat out don't like the idea of homeschooling.  I don't really care. 

 

I have known several friends with high school kids who for whatever reason needed to do something different than B&M.  If they are in 10th grade or above I usually recommend they get their GED and move on to whatever is next.....cc, votech, a job etc.  I don't think one person had taken my advice.  They do turn their nose up at it and I can't figure out why.  They really believe that a GED is 'less than' some on line high school program.  I just don't get it. 

 

I think your son is being very smart.  Good for him for doing what works for him and not worrying about what others think.

[Scarlett]

So what do you regret about it?

 

If this is too OT, would you PM me?

 

 

Oh please don't take it to PM!  I want to hear as well.

[zyxwvut]

Oh please don't take it to PM!  I want to hear as well.

 

Double like!

 

Thank you to everyone who replied!  Lots to think about!

[fraidycat]

I think a "good" education is one that keeps as many doors open as possible for as long as possible.

 

One that can allow the student to progress further in education or working as they see fit. Whether that is college, community college, votech, or becoming the world's best barista at the local coffee shop. They get to choose. Not me.

 

Giving up on math at the elementary level when long division or negative numbers get "hard" slams a lot of doors shut. Giving up on expanding reading progression after they can read chapter books does the same thing. A good education keeps one progressing to keep those doors open.

[Scarlett]

Ds is mulling over his choices right now.  He has a lot of choices.  His dad wants him to do whatever will make ds the most money.  Full stop.  Me?  Meh, I haven't found 'the most money' to bring 'the most happiness'.  But hey I fully acknowledge it takes a lot to make a decent living.  I want him to be able to support himself shortly and to support a wife and kids in the future.  So ds was calculating one career vs another and at one point he says yeah, but I could make $120K vs $80K.  I said, stop and think about what you are saying.  First I had him research what median income is in this area.  He was shocked that it is about $40Kish.  Then I asked him to consider how much he NEEDS vs how much he can make. 

 

 

 

I also heavily concentrate on showing ds the benefits of staying out of debt.  And keeping living expenses as low as possible. 

Edited January 17, 2017 by Scarlett

[purplejackmama]

They do turn their nose up at it and I can't figure out why. They really believe that a GED is 'less than' some on line high school program. I just don't get it.

I have heard (no personal experience, so take it with a grain of salt) that a GED makes military acceptance more difficult than a HS diploma. Just something to consider if you have a child thinking of that route.

[Scarlett]

I have heard (no personal experience, so take it with a grain of salt) that a GED makes military acceptance more difficult than a HS diploma. Just something to consider if you have a child thinking of that route.

 

 

I don't know.   No experience with that at all and no one that I've recommended it to had kids thinking of military.  There is just a stigma attached to a GED for some people.  Honestly I don't think it matters at all unless you are going down some specialized road of academia.

[Guest]

I have heard (no personal experience, so take it with a grain of salt) that a GED makes military acceptance more difficult than a HS diploma. Just something to consider if you have a child thinking of that route.

A handful of college credits clears that right up.

 

So would a war, but let's hope it stays at the credits thing.

[Arcadia]

I want him to be able to support himself shortly and to support a wife and kids in the future. So ds was calculating one career vs another and at one point he says yeah, but I could make $120K vs $80K. I said, stop and think about what you are saying. First I had him research what median income is in this area. He was shocked that it is about $40Kish. Then I asked him to consider how much he NEEDS vs how much he can make.

It really depends on where his future jobs are. Not all jobs are everywhere unfortunately. When we were thinking of relocating, there were many areas/regions that don't have anything my husband can apply for.

Also an electrical engineer friend was unemployed for a year. The $40k difference in pay annually for example does come in handy during unemployment times which is so unpredictable. The odds of being retrenched does not correlate to pay when we are talking about $80k vs $120k. My husband's former dept was retrenched because they closed the entire dept. locally and moved the dept. to NY.

While we are contended with my husband's salary which is at the low end of his pay scale, we won't be thinking any of our friends, who are looking for higher paying jobs, are materialistic. Ageism does exist in my husband's field of work which is why many engineers do math and science tutoring to earn extra cash. My oldest child's former music teacher is an engineer earning extra cash to pay for his two kids state universities costs so he teach all day on weekends.

 

This was in my local papers yesterday. A townhome in my area is already at the $1million mark, single family homes are way higher.

 

"The median 20 percent down payment on a house in metro San Jose is $192,320. Give or take a few bucks, that sum is equal to the median nationwide value of an entire house: $192,500."

 

"The average buyer in the San Jose metro area (which includes Santa Clara and San Benito counties) must set aside 182 percent of his or her annual income — nearly two years’ worth of salary — to assemble the recommended 20 percent down payment. The median income in the metro area is $105,455; the median 20 percent down payment is $192,320, and the median home value is $961,600, according to Zillow."

http://www.mercurynews.com/2017/01/16/a-silicon-valley-down-payment-could-buy-you-an-entire-house-in-much-of-the-u-s/

[purplejackmama]

A handful of college credits clears that right up.

 

So would a war, but let's hope it stays at the credits thing.

Gotcha. Again, no personal experience so I didn't know college credit will work for a GED candidate.

[Scarlett]

It really depends on where his future jobs are. Not all jobs are everywhere unfortunately. When we were thinking of relocating, there were many areas/regions that don't have anything my husband can apply for.

Also an electrical engineer friend was unemployed for a year. The $40k difference in pay annually for example does come in handy during unemployment times which is so unpredictable. The odds of being retrenched does not correlate to pay when we are talking about $80k vs $120k. My husband's former dept was retrenched because they closed the entire dept. locally and moved the dept. to NY.

While we are contended with my husband's salary which is at the low end of his pay scale, we won't be thinking any of our friends, who are looking for higher paying jobs, are materialistic. Ageism does exist in my husband's field of work which is why many engineers do math and science tutoring to earn extra cash. My oldest child's former music teacher is an engineer earning extra cash to pay for his two kids state universities costs so he teach all day on weekends.

 

This was in my local papers yesterday. A townhome in my area is already at the $1million mark, single family homes are way higher.

 

"The median 20 percent down payment on a house in metro San Jose is $192,320. Give or take a few bucks, that sum is equal to the median nationwide value of an entire house: $192,500."

 

"The average buyer in the San Jose metro area (which includes Santa Clara and San Benito counties) must set aside 182 percent of his or her annual income — nearly two years’ worth of salary — to assemble the recommended 20 percent down payment. The median income in the metro area is $105,455; the median 20 percent down payment is $192,320, and the median home value is $961,600, according to Zillow."

http://www.mercurynews.com/2017/01/16/a-silicon-valley-down-payment-could-buy-you-an-entire-house-in-much-of-the-u-s/

 

 

I believe his future jobs are right here in the Tulsa area.  I have relatives that live in San Jose and I know the COL is outrageous.  Here it is not high. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

I have known several friends with high school kids who for whatever reason needed to do something different than B&M.  If they are in 10th grade or above I usually recommend they get their GED and move on to whatever is next.....cc, votech, a job etc.  I don't think one person had taken my advice.  They do turn their nose up at it and I can't figure out why.  They really believe that a GED is 'less than' some on line high school program.  I just don't get it. 

 

I think your son is being very smart.  Good for him for doing what works for him and not worrying about what others think.

 

People are so weird about it that they often go the 24 credit route here in NY (which means they have to pay for all those classes and can't get financial aid for them).  The thing is, this leads to the exact same equivalency diploma as the test.  Why not just take the dang test?!  They don't seem to realize that or have it in their mind it is something different.  It isn't!!

 

Having no diploma or GED is a hell of a lot more problematic. 

[Bluegoat]

I have a cousin who is a YA starting out, who has a lot of the problems with learning listed above.  She probably is someone who is destined to be in a low level job her whole life.

 

She may have a LD, I would not be surprised, but she also was to a large extent given up on as a student.  Her mother mainly raised her, and the mom is not someone who has much sense of what it means to be educated - essentially shhe trusted the school to do what was necessary.  Her dad is much more capable but, I think, perplexed, or maybe just checked out, with his kids.

 

It's very sad to me because with a bit of care, she would have been able to be a good worker for necessary work that would have supported her, and also would have a lot more insight into life and interesting things to say and think about.  As it is, not only are her basic skills, and work related skills, not up to par, her mind is almost entirely empty of content - she doesn't know anything at all about history, art, culture, science, she has no hobbies, interests....   She is struggling seriously over the least two years since leaving school, and has dropped out of two occupational programs (office admin and ECE) and had at least 10 jobs mostly ot the fast food and cashier variety, and been let go from all of them.  It's hard to imagine her life will be very rewarding or easy.

 

To me, that's probably the epitome of a failure of education.

 

 

[Liz CA]

I assure you that my list is very far from "norms of the local culture", LOL.

 

These are just some of the skills without which a person cannot make informed decisions about their personal lives, nor about issues on which they have to vote as a citizen.

 

One way to break it down into something concrete is to work backwards from the goals one wants for the young adult and see where one needs to be at age x to get there. 

 

It did help me a lot to read the WTM - I am sure there are other books as well because what Regentrude laid out is in fact a pretty general list and as she said not all-inclusive but hits upon the minimum of goalposts IMHO.

The WTM book has all of these points and explains each in more depth. Perhaps this is what you are looking for?

[HeWillSoar]

I have a cousin who is a YA starting out, who has a lot of the problems with learning listed above.  She probably is someone who is destined to be in a low level job her whole life.

 

She may have a LD, I would not be surprised, but she also was to a large extent given up on as a student.  Her mother mainly raised her, and the mom is not someone who has much sense of what it means to be educated - essentially shhe trusted the school to do what was necessary.  Her dad is much more capable but, I think, perplexed, or maybe just checked out, with his kids.

 

It's very sad to me because with a bit of care, she would have been able to be a good worker for necessary work that would have supported her, and also would have a lot more insight into life and interesting things to say and think about.  As it is, not only are her basic skills, and work related skills, not up to par, her mind is almost entirely empty of content - she doesn't know anything at all about history, art, culture, science, she has no hobbies, interests....   She is struggling seriously over the least two years since leaving school, and has dropped out of two occupational programs (office admin and ECE) and had at least 10 jobs mostly ot the fast food and cashier variety, and been let go from all of them.  It's hard to imagine her life will be very rewarding or easy.

 

To me, that's probably the epitome of a failure of education.

 

I imagine this could have been my son had I not pulled him out to homeschool.  When he took the placement test at home, he tested three grade levels below where he should have been in math.  No wonder he failed math at school all year.  The school just kept pushing him through and acting like everything was fine.  He had an IEP but it wasn't helping.  The thing is, there are bright kids with a lot of potential who just need to learn a different way.  They need one on one but schools can't afford that.  They need remediation, not being pushed through to the next level.  I really feel bad for the kids who are in that situation and have no other options.  Even if one could afford private schools, I don't think they are going to want to take on a kid who is three levels behind.  The only hope then is a parent who can homeschool them.  Not everyone can do that.   This is one reason kids drop out and don't reach their potential. 

 

[SparklyUnicorn]

Oh please don't take it to PM!  I want to hear as well.

 

Maybe she'd be willing to share.  I don't want to blab her details.

 

I'll only say our situations are not the same.

[Guest]

I think a "good" education is one that keeps as many doors open as possible for as long as possible.

 

One that can allow the student to progress further in education or working as they see fit. Whether that is college, community college, votech, or becoming the world's best barista at the local coffee shop. They get to choose. Not me.

 

Giving up on math at the elementary level when long division or negative numbers get "hard" slams a lot of doors shut. Giving up on expanding reading progression after they can read chapter books does the same thing. A good education keeps one progressing to keep those doors open.

 

Oh my word, I have been hearing so much of this lately from the parents of jr. high aged girls! :cursing: 

 

And not homeschoolers, but public schoolers. I'm not sure what is going on, but ti's like some wall has been hit and everyone simply throws their hands in the air and says "well she's just not good at math, she just needs to realize that and move on!". That's so frustrating for me, because I want to scream "well then help her succeed at it!". But that's not what they want to hear. They just want the girls to drop the GT classes, go to regular math, bare minimum number of math courses and do something else. My favorites are the one who say their daughters are bad at math, but then think they're going to eek out some fantastic STEM career later. I'm sorry but if you're struggling in Algebra I in 8th grade and no one is willing to help you, you're going to have a hard time overcoming that if your esteem is already shot. 

 

Anyway, I so agree with the bolded. I wish more people realized how true it is. 

[Guest]

Cate - I think youd be surprised at what I do and dont do. It is less about the quantity and more about the quality. Its also about making sure your ducks are in a row before moving forward. Ive seen moms over the years keep pushing forward before basics are mastered (reading or math) because they didnt want to seem behind. That is always a mistake. Always IMO.

 

I cant remember how old your oldest is -- I was thinking she is my Sarahs age, eight. Sarah spends her days reading a LOT, she also gets read to a fair bit or listens to audio books. We do IEW Fun and Fascinating, but as I am not perfectly consistent, we are not where we should be in it, iMO. I have her read a lot of things - SOTW, sciencey books, historical fiction, biographies. We read wide, we read deep. Because shes younger in my group, she hears books that are above her grade.

 

Sarah does math for fun right now. We have several little workbooks but we dont do more intense formal math until she is ten. She is working on her math facts online. I believe in rote memorization. Sometimes we memorize things. Sometimes we dont. Our under ten group here is pretty relaxed. My goal (and potentially because I have 50% dyslexics) is to get them reading, reading well, and reading a LOT.

 

 

 

 

 

So I totally realize that youre listing questions as a whole, not just about a child you have, etc., but lets talk about if a parent has those questions. If you (the generic, not the specific) have these questions you are probably looking at a child who is not NT and who struggles or who has given up rather than struggle. This kid is HIGH at risk. They guess that the general population is 20% dyslexic - that is one in five. But they estimate the prison population to be HALF dyslexic - that is 1 in 2. Let that sink in for a minute. When a child is LIMITED because of his dyslexia and/or education, some succeed. But there is NO glossing over that many fail.

 

It is one thing to have your child in the public school because you are not equipped or capable (or willing) to take on a basic education. It is another entirely to watch them flounder, toss your hands in the air, and do nothing.

I truly, honestly, completely, and fully believe that an AMAZING education can be given to a child on an insanely low budget. A library card and a bus pass would be a good place to start. Selling the tv for the money for an old first edition Saxon text would be the second. Conversation is vital - - - about EVERYTHING. And finding a place to get outside. This is the perfect, IMO, elementary education.

 

(As an aside, this is all not pointed at PinkMint, because, well, she is one my favorite people, but to a far more generic homeschool mama. I actually suspect PinkMint is hard on herself with expectations and is doing great. One of my close friends is so like her - she really thought she was never doing enough and she BOGGLED my mind by what she does on a regular basis.)

I just think if you are seeing those struggles that the rest of us HAVE TO BE LOUD about get an evaluation. Or at least interlibrary loan Shaywitz book and see if this is your kiddo. These kids - if they arent taught to read and read well, this is totally lost potential. Many of them have ADHD as a co-existing factor. It is the perfect storm of epic failure for their lives and it just doesnt have to be.

 

 

 

 

Um, an assistant? Yeah, definitely not the average mama, lol. But if you find one who will work for free, I would take her. :P :D We could even share. Definitely not our circumstances here either!!

 

 

Those questions are definitely red flags and if anyone here is reading this with those flags, scoot over to the LD board here and ask them. We have some AMAZING mamas over there.

 

Quill, you nailed it. I would encourage ALL my daughters to be at home mamas - there is nothing like the gift and blessing of being able to be at home with your children and doing this life stuff. That said, I think some of the primary cause here is fear. I know there are people who limit their daughters options (through education) so that they WILL stay home. What a shame. Its saying - only dumb moms stay home. Really, think about that. It gives that subliminal message that we will limit your education so that the only option is staying home. I dont know about you, but the message I want to give my daughters is that strong, capable, bright women can CHOOSE to stay home with their children. These moms have options but they CHOOSE to home educate because it is more important, more valuable, more necessary than a paying job.

 

My job isnt to hold tight to my babies. My job is to equip and inspire them for their life. Their life is not an extenuation of my life. Their relationship with the Lord is not an extenuation of my life. They are their very own souls with their very own call on their lives. Who am I that I think that I can or should override the Holy Spirit or that I know what the Lord has planned for their life? Limiting because of fear is sheer arrogance.

 

Equip. Inspire. Show them something beautiful and equip them to understand it and to share with others and give them eyes to see.

 

 

 

 

I do NOT believe college is the only way. Not even close. But I also know, with a kiddo who is a senior in college and three more teens currently, that we simply do NOT know what is to come or what will be. My DS could barely read by age ten and it was not a lack of trying. He is almost 18 now. He scored a perfect 36 on the Reading section of the ACT and he is professionally diagnosed moderately dyslexic. He serves on honor society, is receiving his Eagle Scout, and has a 3.48 college GPA with 31 credits so far. (He is retaking the C that drug that down, lol.) We are hopeful the team he is on will make it to Mock Trial Nationals this year. (The team won it last year, but he was on a junior team last year.)

 

Ad I think what if I had looked at that kid at 11 and decided, you know what - he just isnt cut out for college. I will stop striving SO hard to teach him to read, I wont insist that he read 2-3 hours a day, I wont insist he read hard books, I wont read to him. He just isnt cut out for college. What a wretched shame that would have been. Hes exceptionally bright and capable. His dyslexia taught him to strive even harder. It gave him some degree of compassion for what others do. His learning disability had the potential to shape him. INSTEAD, it was OVERCOMING his learning disability that has shaped him.

He will be attending the flagship U in the fall, living at home, and majoring in Engineering. I have zero doubts he was made to go further. He amazes me. This isnt a brag post. This is to give you a real life example of a kid that really could have gone either way. (And also to say I didnt do anything amazing. We just pounded reading for YEARS and read, and read, and read.) This was a kid with a disability. This was a kid who didnt look like he was cut out to be academic.

 

But lets talk about the what-ifs. What if he got to age 18 and didnt WANT to go to college? What if he gets to 18 and he wants to do something else? Military, or something with his hands, or something artistic, etc? AWESOME! But then it wasnt ME deciding his fate. It was fully his choice, not because of any limitation placed UPON him, but because he HAD choices and this is what he chose. Does that make the difference more apparent? I actually hope that NONE of my children get caught up in soul destroying materialism. But, just because a person has a well paying job or an incredible education does not make one more or less godly, more or less ethical, or give one more or less joy in life. Some people use great jobs and great incomes to bless and serve others. Its a heart thing. ;)

 

 

And, for the record, I really struggled with this for years. I think its why I feel so emphatic about it?

 

(*As always, forgive the lack of apostrophes and quotation marks. Im convinced Ill find that key somewhere.)

BlessedMama - homerun! I couldn't agree more totally with every point in your post.

 

Thanks for saying that about your son. It gives me hope.

[Guest]

Oh my word, I have been hearing so much of this lately from the parents of jr. high aged girls! :cursing:

 

And not homeschoolers, but public schoolers. I'm not sure what is going on, but ti's like some wall has been hit and everyone simply throws their hands in the air and says "well she's just not good at math, she just needs to realize that and move on!". That's so frustrating for me, because I want to scream "well then help her succeed at it!". But that's not what they want to hear. They just want the girls to drop the GT classes, go to regular math, bare minimum number of math courses and do something else. My favorites are the one who say their daughters are bad at math, but then think they're going to eek out some fantastic STEM career later. I'm sorry but if you're struggling in Algebra I in 8th grade and no one is willing to help you, you're going to have a hard time overcoming that if your esteem is already shot.

 

Anyway, I so agree with the bolded. I wish more people realized how true it is.

This is exactly what happened to me. Add to it: my parents were not people who saw any purpose for a daughter to go to college. That would just get her sucked into a career and she would abandon her babies. (BTW, they were not vocal about this; they merely acted as though going to college were obviously not a path they would make any effort to set their daughters on.)

 

When I graduated high school, I was absolutely math phobic. I forced myself to do certain activties in my early twenties, like mentally tally my grocery bill; I had to reassure myself that this was for my own benefit, to get over my math fears. I had to remind myself that nobody was going to fail me at the cash register if my tally was wrong; that nobody was going to tell me I stink at math because they wouldn't know. And, lo and behold, I didn't actually stink at math. I was reasonably good at it.

 

When I did finally go to college beginning at age 38, I did (of course) have to take two remedial math classes before I could take a credit class. But that wasn't even as bad as it could have been because I taught myself a lot of the missing math while homeschooling my kids. And, in college, I got high As in all my classes. I am not so bad at math after all!

 

It is one of the reasons I don't just let my kids escape applying themselves to something that does not come so easily for them, don't just shrug and say, "Oh, you stink at spelling...oh, you have crappy reading comprehension..." I sooooo wish my deficiencies in math had not been glossed over and treated as, "Oh well, she can be a great SAHM!" I had the ability to learn it, what I lacked was a decent teacher and an environment that encouraged progress.

[Scarlett]

This is exactly what happened to me. Add to it: my parents were not people who saw any purpose for a daughter to go to college. That would just get her sucked into a career and she would abandon her babies. (BTW, they were not vocal about this; they merely acted as though going to college were obviously not a path they would make any effort to set their daughters on.)

 

When I graduated high school, I was absolutely math phobic. I forced myself to do certain activties in my early twenties, like mentally tally my grocery bill; I had to reassure myself that this was for my own benefit, to get over my math fears. I had to remind myself that nobody was going to fail me at the cash register if my tally was wrong; that nobody was going to tell me I stink at math because they wouldn't know. And, lo and behold, I didn't actually stink at math. I was reasonably good at it.

 

When I did finally go to college beginning at age 38, I did (of course) have to take two remedial math classes before I could take a credit class. But that wasn't even as bad as it could have been because I taught myself a lot of the missing math while homeschooling my kids. And, in college, I got high As in all my classes. I am not so bad at math after all!

 

It is one of the reasons I don't just let my kids escape applying themselves to something that does not come so easily for them, don't just shrug and say, "Oh, you stink at spelling...oh, you have crappy reading comprehension..." I sooooo wish my deficiencies in math had not been glossed over and treated as, "Oh well, she can be a great SAHM!" I had the ability to learn it, what I lacked was a decent teacher and an environment that encouraged progress.

 

 

I had the same issue with math growing up.  I didn't get it....really missed a lot of the foundation.  Once I began homeschooling my own son a lot of the blanks were filled in for me.  By then my mom was an expert in teaching math to lower elementrary and she helped me teach my son soooo much. 

 

Math is a big problem in the is country.  TPTB keep tossing new ideas in the mess but really they are not solving the problem of being able to get kids to 'get' the concepts.

[FaithManor]

One thing that I think is only fair to piint out is that while college is definitely not the only path and certainly not good for everyone, we need to also embrace the reality for our kids' sakes that many vocational jobs now require licensing and many of those exams are difficult and require a high degree of math and reading fluency, critical thinking skill. The "apprentice to the local X" really is not an option anymore because employer X is not going to train and pay for classes and licensing. The employer expects the the employee to do the hardwork before applying.

 

So take welding. There was a time in this country that if a young person was taught welding at home by pa, he/she could get a job post high school without any additional training. Now most welders are computerized and require extensive knowledge of CAD/practical drafting. None of the local plants will hire anyone without a two year welding technician license which requires physics, metallurgy, and trigonometry just to name a few classes.

 

Numerous fields have gone that direction. Locally I cannot think fo an employer that is not fast food or cashiering, stocking, for minimum wage perpetually that does not require significant post high school formal training.

 

So think about this. If one has a boy who is really great at metal working and would like to turn that into a profession, without a college prep high school education so he can go directly into physics and trigonometry, he is goinf to take high priced remdial coursework before even beginning the program adding a lot of time and expense and frustration to the journey.

 

Many vocations have gone this way. It is the travail of living in a highly technical society. Manufacturing, what is left, is getting more and more complicated and employers are far less willing to do on the job training.

 

So for a neurotypical kid, very likely he or she shoot for "college admissions" in terms of high school accomplishment in order to not severely limit vocational options.

[Carrie12345]

Maybe she'd be willing to share.  I don't want to blab her details.

 

I'll only say our situations are not the same.

 

Dudes.  I *just* recently posted about pulling back on my kids' personal details, lol.  I'll try a summary and see how it feels.

 

We (a very large, blended family, so I don't get all the decision making power) underestimated the non-academic aspects ds would struggle with.  SOME of us underestimated the amount of support and supervision he would need.  He's getting back on track, which is terrific, but even he agrees now that he probably should have spent another year or two working on his weaker skills, even if the academic content was slow and boring.

 

But my story was never meant to be discouraging.  It just amused me that it came up in the context it did!

[Bluegoat]

One thing that I think is only fair to piint out is that while college is definitely not the only path and certainly not good for everyone, we need to also embrace the reality for our kids' sakes that many vocational jobs now require licensing and many of those exams are difficult and require a high degree of math and reading fluency, critical thinking skill. The "apprentice to the local X" really is not an option anymore because employer X is not going to train and pay for classes and licensing. The employer expects the the employee to do the hardwork before applying.

 

So take welding. There was a time in this country that if a young person was taught welding at home by pa, he/she could get a job post high school without any additional training. Now most welders are computerized and require extensive knowledge of CAD/practical drafting. None of the local plants will hire anyone without a two year welding technician license which requires physics, metallurgy, and trigonometry just to name a few classes.

 

Numerous fields have gone that direction. Locally I cannot think fo an employer that is not fast food or cashiering, stocking, for minimum wage perpetually that does not require significant post high school formal training.

 

So think about this. If one has a boy who is really great at metal working and would like to turn that into a profession, without a college prep high school education so he can go directly into physics and trigonometry, he is goinf to take high priced remdial coursework before even beginning the program adding a lot of time and expense and frustration to the journey.

 

Many vocations have gone this way. It is the travail of living in a highly technical society. Manufacturing, what is left, is getting more and more complicated and employers are far less willing to do on the job training.

 

So for a neurotypical kid, very likely he or she shoot for "college admissions" in terms of high school accomplishment in order to not severely limit vocational options.

 

If I think of all my close friends and family members, the ones that are in trades are, for the most part, the ones using math on a daily basis.

[FaithManor]

If I think of all my close friends and family members, the ones that are in trades are, for the most part, the ones using math on a daily basis.

Very true. Lots of algebraic thinking (finding for an unknown) and geometry. Eleteical journeyman is another very technical field that would not be well within reach without excellent math, reading, and problem solving skills.

[Bluegoat]

Very true. Lots of algebraic thinking (finding for an unknown) and geometry. Eleteical journeyman is another very technical field that would not be well within reach without excellent math, reading, and problem solving skills.

 

Yup.  My dad, after he did high school and about 2 years of university, went to sea.  He had to learn all kinds of math he had never bothered with, and he used it every day.  And then he had to learn it all again when they changed how they measured things.  My cousin who is an electrician knows way more math now than he ever needed for his history degree.  Similarly I have an uncle who is a carpenter and luthier and a grandfather who was an aircraft tech - both used more math than my lawyer uncle.

[bettyandbob]

I'm a planner. 16 years ago, when I started this journey, with a 6 year old, I tried to plan it out so that my decisions and choices for his education would not result in limiting his choices when my role in the journey was coming to an end. For my family that meant I was mapping out an educational journey that would prepare that 6 year old to attend college. 

 

Not everyone needs to go to college, but I wasn't going to set my child up so I closed that door for him. The other thing to keep in mind is many vocational certification programs require students to be academically close to what some people would consider a college prep level. They need to have decent math skills and reading. Long term I believe not having written communication skills hurts too (maybe not at entry level in some fields, but it comes out as a people move up the career ladder). 

 

The fact is jobs that don't require beyond minimal reading and math are rapidly disappearing and don't put a person in a position to support himself in the first place. I think meeting the minimum requirements to graduate high school whether from public school or meeting whatever minimum the state requires for home school graduates is not enough for the student to be prepared to start on a path to an independent adult life as a productive citizen. 

 

If a person goes into a field where it's not obvious to have strong math skills, perhaps as a chef or cosmetologist, they are set up to not manage their future well. Developing strong math skills and investing in a few business, accounting and finance courses and can set someone on an entreprenueral path or at least put that person in a position to not be taken advantage of by an employer or business partner. FTR I mention chef because it appears earlier in the thread, but I believe chefs are using math constantly because they have to do cost estimates based on ingredients as part of restaurant management. 

 

For the student who has LDs, the path may or may not include college or vocational training. It's going to require even more intense analysis and involvement. I have a niece who didn't read until 8th grade. She did go to college. She has a part time gig in her field and is building a resume to move up. I know of other students whose parents who guided their kids into vocations that didn't require college, but worked to find a good fit both with the type of employment and the employer. 

[Bluegoat]

An aside, but I think while chefs can get away with slow reading skills, they need pretty good math skills.

[Scarlett]

An aside, but I think while chefs can get away with slow reading skills, they need pretty good math skills.

 

 

I never thought of that.  My dss struggles with math.  Honestly though I wish they would offer a good business math course because Algebra 2 is such a struggle for him and I think he would use business math more.  Hopefully in the vo tech program they will address that area with them.