If a mom has low self-esteem, will her kids have low self-esteem?

[MaeFlowers]

I'm speaking about self-esteem in regards to appearance only.

 

Today I saw a picture of myself and my response was basically, "Damn, I'm ugly!" Dh was mad at me for saying this is front of the kids because he said that I am modelling low self-esteem. I'm kinda not buying this. Both my kids have healthy self esteem in this arena. I didn't learn this from my parents. My mom had healthy self-esteem.

 

What does the hive think? Do you think you learned your self-esteem about your appearance from your parents?

 

I'm curious about this because I wonder how people do learn to have healthy self-esteem. I wonder if it can be taught or if it is more innate.

[TammyS]

I don't know.  I've always preferred to encourage my kids not to think all that much about their appearance beyond "am I neat and clean?".  If they're lovely kids, it's just dumb luck and no credit to them, and if they're ugly it's no fault of theirs, so I can't see the upside in thinking about it in either case.

[OneStepAtATime]

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

 

I think many factors can influence a child's self-esteem, including basic personality.  

 

I do know some things my parents said/did had a direct affect on my self-esteem, some for good, some not so good.  It also affected how I see others.  In many ways they did a great job in helping me to see the positive in others and not to focus on any one thing (such as physical appearance).  The effects were fairly subtle, though.  I did not realize how much I was internalizing until I was much older.  

 

I realize you probably don't want to hear this and I am absolutely not wanting you to feel worse about yourself but I have to be honest, I agree that a parent verbally deriding themselves in a serious way (not a casual joke), especially if they do it on a regular basis (not just having a rare bad day), can potentially have negative consequences for the children AND for the parent.  Another concern besides direct self-esteem issues would be the children internalizing that physical appearance should have a higher value than who a person is inside when dealing with others.   They might internalize that if someone else is not attractive, then they should not be as highly valued or something along those lines. 

 

Did you say it in front of them because you needed some support, someone to say it isn't true?  If so, I do understand.  I have done something similar before.  Have you looked into counseling?  What do you think are the contributing factors in your feelings of low self-esteem?  

 

(And I do think I understand.  There have been times when my self-esteem has really tanked for various reasons, even though it is usually not tied to physical appearance for me.)

 

[MaeFlowers]

I don't know. I've always preferred to encourage my kids not to think all that much about their appearance beyond "am I neat and clean?". If they're lovely kids, it's just dumb luck and no credit to them, and if they're ugly it's no fault of theirs, so I can't see the upside in thinking about it in either case.

I tend to agree. I want my kids to be neat and clean and have room to express themselves through their clothing choices. I try not to express too many opinions. But, I do worry about self-esteem because I have never had any. I don't know how much is really learned.

[Arcadia]

Do you think you learned your self-esteem about your appearance from your parents?.

My dad has self doubts but it is all on academic and work ability, not appearance. My neighbors keep mistaking me for a boy unless I am in my school uniform (blouse and pinafore). Most of my cousins would fall under the plain but pleasant to look at category and my extended family doesn't care about looks. My dad got us tutors for academics because after school tutoring is the norm where I am from.

 

One of my friends has a really mean mom who would tell her she is ugly to her face very often, from when I know her in 7th grade all the way to college and work. My friend has two very pretty (in the eye catching sense) older sisters which are her mom's favorites. Her late dad is okay but had to work long hours to support the family. One of her sister called her ugly to her face too. She is plain looking but not ugly at all.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

nm

Edited January 15, 2017 by Tibbie Dunbar

[MaeFlowers]

:grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug:

 

I think many factors can influence a child's self-esteem, including basic personality.

 

I do know some things my parents said/did had a direct affect on my self-esteem, some for good, some not so good. It also affected how I see others. In many ways they did a great job in helping me to see the positive in others and not to focus on any one thing (such as physical appearance). The effects were fairly subtle, though. I did not realize how much I was internalizing until I was much older.

 

I realize you probably don't want to hear this and I am absolutely not wanting you to feel worse about yourself but I have to be honest, I agree that a parent verbally deriding themselves in a serious way (not a casual joke), especially if they do it on a regular basis (not just having a rare bad day), can potentially have negative consequences for the children AND for the parent. Another concern besides direct self-esteem issues would be the children internalizing that physical appearance should have a higher value than who a person is inside when dealing with others. They might internalize that if someone else is not attractive, then they should not be as highly valued or something along those lines.

 

Did you say it in front of them because you needed some support, someone to say it isn't true? If so, I do understand. I have done something similar before. Have you looked into counseling? What do you think are the contributing factors in your feelings of low self-esteem?

 

(And I do think I understand. There have been times when my self-esteem has really tanked for various reasons, even though it is usually not tied to physical appearance for me.)

I said it because I am ugly. I don't really think its a big deal that I am and am not looking for validation. I don't judge other peoples worthiness by their appearance and try to teach my kids the same. Does that make sense?

 

I haven't sought counseling for it. I honestly couldn't say what the contributing factors are. I think it is a combination of many things.

[bolt.]

For small children, parents are the absolute foundation of a child's concept of the world. If parents model something, kids will behave that way too.

 

But that's not 'self-esteem'.

 

What you are modelling is 1. The freedom to believe that your body (or an image of your body) fits the definition of "ugly" and 2. The freedom to say so, out loud, to others.

 

Since the first is just barely socially acceptable (and certainly undesirable as a belief), and the second is well outside social norms -- I think it is a disservice for you to model those behaviours for your children.

 

In addition, children may not grasp that (to you) it's ok to say that about one's self only -- never about others. They are likely to consider such beliefs and comments are acceptable towards anyone.

 

So, it has nothing to do with whether they currently believe their bodies are/aren't ugly. It opens the possibility that it is possible for anybody's body to be ugly (theirs, yours, or others) -- it opens the concept of body ugliness as 'something we ought to assess'. It adds importance and emotion to the assessment.

 

And, really, their bodies will change. Their bodies will change naturally as the grow, pass through puberty, have children of their own, and become elderly. They may also become overweight through choices or for medical reasons. They may also 'become ugly' through illness or accident.

 

Whenever they think about their bodies for their whole future -- do you want it to be a key question (from their mother) that they attach importance to? "Is my body ugly or not?" Eventually they will lose their looks. I wouldn't set them up to be losing any actual self-esteem at that point.

 

I don't like the idea of setting kids up with 'good self esteem' about their looks based on the reality that 'right now I actually am good looking'. Good self esteem about bodies comes from other places.

Edited January 15, 2017 by bolt.

[MaeFlowers]

For small children, parents are the absolute foundation of a child's concept of the world. If parents model something, kids will behave that way too.

 

But that's not 'self-esteem'.

 

What you are modelling is 1. The freedom to believe that your body (or an image of your body) fits the definition of "ugly" and 2. The freedom to say so, out loud, to others.

 

Since the first is just barely socially acceptable (and certainly undesirable as a belief), and the second is well outside social norms -- I think it is a disservice for you to model those behaviours for your children.

 

In addition, children may not grasp that (to you) it's ok to say that about one's self only -- never about others. They are likely to consider such beliefs and comments are acceptable towards anyone.

 

So, it has nothing to do with whether they currently believe their bodies are/aren't ugly. It opens the possibility that it is possible for anybody's body to be ugly (theirs, yours, or others) -- it opens the concept of body ugliness as 'something we ought to assess'. It adds importance and emotion to the assessment.

 

And, really, their bodies will change. Their bodies will change naturally as the grow, pass through puberty, have children of their own, and become elderly. They may also become overweight through choices or for medical reasons. They may also 'become ugly' through illness or accident.

 

Whenever they think about their bodies for their whole future -- do you want it to be a key question (from their mother) that they attach importance to? "Is my body ugly or not?" Eventually they will lose their looks. I wouldn't set them up to be losing any actual self-esteem at that point.

 

I don't like the idea of setting kids up with 'good self esteem' about their looks based on the reality that 'right now I actually am good looking'. Good self esteem about bodies comes from other places.

I guess this where I get really dense. If I walked around saying I was beautiful all the time, would I not still be reinforcing appearance as value? Then, if I am saying so and don't belive, am I not modeling self-delusion or just plain lying?

 

I will admit I have a very hard time with social norms. Especially in regard to this. Norms vary by culture and by family, anyway. But, why must everyone walking around tell themselves they are attractive? Is it really unhealthy to honestly assess ones self? Is it really unhealthy to say that some things are ugly and that it is in the eye of the beholder? Not everyone is beautiful. Why do we dance around that?

 

ETA: If you think healthy self esteem about our bodies comes from other places, where do you think it comes from?

Edited January 15, 2017 by MaeFlowers

[bolt.]

I guess this where I get really dense. If I walked around saying I was beautiful all the time, would I not still be reinforcing appearance as value? Then, if I am saying so and don't belive, am I not modeling self-delusion or just plain lying?

 

I will admit I have a very hard time with social norms. Especially in regard to this. Norms vary by culture and by family, anyway. But, why must everyone walking around tell themselves they are attractive? Is it really unhealthy to honestly assess ones self? Is it really unhealthy to say that some things are ugly and that it is in the eye of the beholder? Not everyone is beautiful. Why do we dance around that?

It's not a cultural norm for people to blatantly state that they consider themselves beautiful either. Walking around saying that would be equally unusual, plus being disingenuous.

 

It's a norm to compliment the beauty of others infrequently and usually only if there is a recent change in their apperance (they are dressed up, they get a haircut) or if a photo turned out particularly nicely.

 

Otherwise it is unusual to make beauty / ugliness comments about one's self or others.

 

It's fine to think of yourself as not fitting your own idea of beauty. Many of us think that we are not beautiful (though few go all the way to 'ugly'). Some of us think 'not beautiful' and feel difficult feelings about it. Others think 'not beautiful' and feel very little about the situation, because they don't think it matters much one way or the other. -- It's *broadcasting* the opinion that isn't good or healthy. It's particularly unhealthy around children, more so around girls, and even more so if you are the mother of the girls.

 

For kids "issues that matter" end up ranked according to "how much do my parents talk about it" -- and they tend not to question those prioritization levels until later in life.

 

If you really don't care about looks, don't talk about them.

 

If you want to model social norms, give occasional compliments about new outfits and nice photos.

 

There's no sense introducing them to body issues they wouldn't even consider without your influence.

[Anne in CA]

Well, I have a weird perspective on ugly from working in the hospitality industry for so long. I believe most people are lovely to look at based more on their countenance rather than their actual physical features. And past middle age the most lovely people are "good" people. People who can put others first, people who give to charity, people who are kind to everyone, ect. Those things show on a person's expressions as they age and those things are way more important than a prominent chin, or a tiny nose that makes someone's face look flat or even a lot of extra weight. Believe me, as people get older who they are shows on their face. 

 

I wouldn't refer to myself as ugly in front of my husband. You are insulting the person most important to him and he doesn't like it. Besides, as I pointed out, time is a serious "leveler".

 

Case in point. There is no one uglier to me than the former Mrs. Kitzhaber. I'm sure plenty of people who don't know her consider her to be quite beautiful, but no one who has waited on her thinks of her as anything other than ugly to the very bone. During their marriage I often had the odious task of keeping that vile woman happy (impossible, narcissists hate to be happy) and could never consider her beautiful.  

[bolt.]

Healthy self esteem (in general) is about being firmly of the opinion that one is 'a good and capable person' -- usually includes the opinion that 'others tend to also think so'.

 

Healthy self esteem about bodies is the belief that one's body is generally 'a good thing', that does what it needs to do, and is a positive part of your identity -- that it is a part of you that (with pros and cons included) you are happy to 'own'.

 

It extends to the possible opinion that you hope others also view your body in a fairly positive light... As in the desire that people should see you as well kept, nice enough looking, not ugly enough to stand out in a crowd.

[Guest]

I don't think you get your self-esteem* from your parents, but I DO think you (especially women?) default to your mother's voice when you self-talk.

 

*As Kat Williams said, "It's called SELF esteem..."

Edited January 15, 2017 by OKBud

[catz]

I guess this where I get really dense. If I walked around saying I was beautiful all the time, would I not still be reinforcing appearance as value? Then, if I am saying so and don't belive, am I not modeling self-delusion or just plain lying?

 

I will admit I have a very hard time with social norms. Especially in regard to this. Norms vary by culture and by family, anyway. But, why must everyone walking around tell themselves they are attractive? Is it really unhealthy to honestly assess ones self? Is it really unhealthy to say that some things are ugly and that it is in the eye of the beholder? Not everyone is beautiful. Why do we dance around that?

 

ETA: If you think healthy self esteem about our bodies comes from other places, where do you think it comes from?

 

I don't think emotionally healthy people do either extreme (call themselves ugly or lavish themselves with praise).  They feel comfortable in their own skin.  They take care of their bodies and hygiene.  They carry themselves confidentially and accept themselves as they are.

 

I don't think parents should be modelling behavior they don't want to see in their kids.  Even if they don't model it now, it can sneak up.   And it's funny how 10-20+ years later you can look in a mirror and look just like a parent who called themselves ugly.  I guess I certainly would not want to see my kids verbally lashing themselves into adulthood.

[maize]

My concern would be primarily that you are modeling judgmentalism with regard to appearance.

 

I think it is worth making an effort to avoid doing that.

[Guest]

I said it because I am ugly. I don't really think its a big deal that I am and am not looking for validation. I don't judge other peoples worthiness by their appearance and try to teach my kids the same. Does that make sense?

 

I haven't sought counseling for it. I honestly couldn't say what the contributing factors are. I think it is a combination of many things.

 

Sometimes my husband says self-depricating things and I say, "Do I LOOK like someone who'd hitch her wagon to an ugly pony?"

 

My point is that while we are ourselves, we are also more than ourselves.

[MaeFlowers]

It's not a cultural norm for people to blatantly state that they consider themselves beautiful either. Walking around saying that would be equally unusual, plus being disingenuous.

 

It's a norm to compliment the beauty of others infrequently and usually only if there is a recent change in their apperance (they are dressed up, they get a haircut) or if a photo turned out particularly nicely.

 

Otherwise it is unusual to make beauty / ugliness comments about one's self or others.

 

It's fine to think of yourself as not fitting your own idea of beauty. Many of us think that we are not beautiful (though few go all the way to 'ugly'). Some of us think 'not beautiful' and feel difficult feelings about it. Others think 'not beautiful' and feel very little about the situation, because they don't think it matters much one way or the other. -- It's *broadcasting* the opinion that isn't good or healthy. It's particularly unhealthy around children, more so around girls, and even more so if you are the mother of the girls.

 

For kids "issues that matter" end up ranked according to "how much do my parents talk about it" -- and they tend not to question those prioritization levels until later in life.

 

If you really don't care about looks, don't talk about them.

 

If you want to model social norms, give occasional compliments about new outfits and nice photos.

 

There's no sense introducing them to body issues they wouldn't even consider without your influence.

To be honest, I don't want to model social norms. I don't think they are healthy either. (My dd picked up from my MIL that you can't be pretty without makeup. Around here the "beauty is pain" mentality runs pretty strong.)

 

I will work on not saying anything. It's just so my natural reaction. I need a mute button.

[Guest]

I guess this where I get really dense. If I walked around saying I was beautiful all the time, would I not still be reinforcing appearance as value? Then, if I am saying so and don't belive, am I not modeling self-delusion or just plain lying?

 

I will admit I have a very hard time with social norms. Especially in regard to this. Norms vary by culture and by family, anyway. But, why must everyone walking around tell themselves they are attractive? Is it really unhealthy to honestly assess ones self? Is it really unhealthy to say that some things are ugly and that it is in the eye of the beholder? Not everyone is beautiful. Why do we dance around that?

 

ETA: If you think healthy self esteem about our bodies comes from other places, where do you think it comes from?

 

I think of it like this.

 

People can SEE ME. I'm not invisible. No matter what I say about my looks, the actual way I look is not changed.

 

So why not be positive- or neutral about being pretty normal looking? Most people are.

 

"Ugly" is not a neutral term. It is an explicitly negative word that denigrates.

 

ETA--I might not be the best person to listen to here, though. I have complained on the boards before about getting harangued for saying the words "I have good self esteem."

 

There's not intrinsic value in being beautiful, but sorry/not sorry, there's no intrinsic value in low self-esteem, either.

Edited January 15, 2017 by OKBud

[catz]

If nothing else, it's painful to listen to other people self deprecate and is just plain old bad manners IMO.  Just as bad going on and on about how fabulous you are.  . 

[MaeFlowers]

Well, I have a weird perspective on ugly from working in the hospitality industry for so long. I believe most people are lovely to look at based more on their countenance rather than their actual physical features. And past middle age the most lovely people are "good" people. People who can put others first, people who give to charity, people who are kind to everyone, ect. Those things show on a person's expressions as they age and those things are way more important than a prominent chin, or a tiny nose that makes someone's face look flat or even a lot of extra weight. Believe me, as people get older who they are shows on their face.

 

I wouldn't refer to myself as ugly in front of my husband. You are insulting the person most important to him and he doesn't like it. Besides, as I pointed out, time is a serious "leveler".

 

Case in point. There is no one uglier to me than the former Mrs. Kitzhaber. I'm sure plenty of people who don't know her consider her to be quite beautiful, but no one who has waited on her thinks of her as anything other than ugly to the very bone. During their marriage I often had the odious task of keeping that vile woman happy (impossible, narcissists hate to be happy) and could never consider her beautiful.

I really do think who people are on the inside is more important. I agree with you that it affects our idea of what is pretty/not pretty.

 

You're right about my husband. He doesn't like it when I say I am ugly. If he said he was ugly, I would only tell him that I don't think so. I can't change how he feels about himself. I wouldn't be personally insulted by that, though. I guess I don't understand why he would be either.

[MaeFlowers]

Healthy self esteem (in general) is about being firmly of the opinion that one is 'a good and capable person' -- usually includes the opinion that 'others tend to also think so'.

 

Healthy self esteem about bodies is the belief that one's body is generally 'a good thing', that does what it needs to do, and is a positive part of your identity -- that it is a part of you that (with pros and cons included) you are happy to 'own'.

 

It extends to the possible opinion that you hope others also view your body in a fairly positive light... As in the desire that people should see you as well kept, nice enough looking, not ugly enough to stand out in a crowd.

That's interesting. I've never thought about my body in terms of being a good thing. I've never been happy to own it either. How exactly do you get to that point where you think it is good?

[Guest]

How exactly do you get to that point where you think it is good?

 

By changing your self talk.

 

IME, getting a disease that makes you unbearable to look at for a few years, and recovering from it helps a tonne too. I don't necessarily recommend it though :laugh:

[MaeFlowers]

I don't think emotionally healthy people do either extreme (call themselves ugly or lavish themselves with praise). They feel comfortable in their own skin. They take care of their bodies and hygiene. They carry themselves confidentially and accept themselves as they are.

 

I don't think parents should be modelling behavior they don't want to see in their kids. Even if they don't model it now, it can sneak up. And it's funny how 10-20+ years later you can look in a mirror and look just like a parent who called themselves ugly. I guess I certainly would not want to see my kids verbally lashing themselves into adulthood.

I don't think I ever felt comfortable in my own skin. I quit ballet in first grade because I felt uncomfortable in the leotard.

 

My mom was always comfortable in her skin. She never put herself or others down. I didn't learn that from her. So, this is where I'm wondering how it is learned from our parents.

[MaeFlowers]

My concern would be primarily that you are modeling judgmentalism with regard to appearance.

 

I think it is worth making an effort to avoid doing that.

But if I said I looked pretty in the picture, wouldn't that be considered good? Or would that still be judgmentalism? Is it only okay to say something if its positive? (About one's self.)

[MaeFlowers]

By changing your self talk.

 

IME, getting a disease that makes you unbearable to look at for a few years, and recovering from it helps a tonne too. I don't necessarily recommend it though :laugh:

Ugh. The dreaded self talk.

[MaeFlowers]

You focus more on what it does, and less on how it looks. That's what's worked for me.

 

So say I look at a photo where I look crap - hey, even the bad word UGLY!. Instead of saying 'Wow, I sure am ugly in this photo' I try to change the self talk to 'I am grateful my body is strong enough for me to go hiking with the kids that day.'

 

It's sort of self-trickery - I mean, we're not stupid, we know when we look crap in a photo, right ? But we can train ourselves to sort of deflect from that - 'cos there's only so many times we need to say it outloud, lol, people don't like it - and be glad for the functions our body performs instead.

 

I kind of had to do that when I was on meds that made me swell up like a toad. People don't want to hear that reality. 'Oh no, you're lovely!' makes them more comfortable than 'Yes, your appearance has changed and I can see that you feel really rubbish about it.' I mean, maybe this is where my distaste for exhibiting compulsory self esteem comes from.

Thank you. I understand better now. I'm terrible at self talk, but I have never tried it that way.

[bolt.]

That's interesting. I've never thought about my body in terms of being a good thing. I've never been happy to own it either. How exactly do you get to that point where you think it is good?

I don't know, really. To me it's always been rather obvious that owning a functioning body that is average in most aspects is a 'good thing'. Why would it be a bad thing? I wouldn't even really be 'me' without my body. It's fairly essential!

 

What criteria does a body have to meet in your eyes before you would willingly call it 'good'? Could you go for 'adequate'? Would you really be happier to not own it?

 

I totally know that some people luck out on the body lottery: they get beauty, or athletic ability, or hand-eye talents, or whatever. That's lovely for them! I like it when other people get nice things!

 

The existence of these statistical outliers doesn't mean that the vast majority of human bodies are 'no good'.

 

Aside from the disease, disability or disfigurement -- most human bodies are self-evidently 'good' bodies (and many people who have those difficulties remain grateful for what aspects of good bodies they do have). Anyone who doesn't think so isn't using logic.

Edited January 15, 2017 by bolt.

[maize]

But if I said I looked pretty in the picture, wouldn't that be considered good? Or would that still be judgmentalism? Is it only okay to say something if its positive? (About one's self.)

I don't personally comment much on appearances. I will tell my daughter she looks really nice when she has just spent two hours getting ready for a dance competition--because stage appearance is supposed to be the focus of the getting ready effort. I will also sometimes comment that an outfit or hairdo look very nice.

 

I shy away from pretty much all qualitative labels of people. Labels that suggest a person IS a characteristic. I want to see people as people, not as a characteristic. To me saying "you look beautiful today" is different from saying "you are beautiful" and yes I do tend to avoid the latter even when it is true!

 

Beyond that though I do think that negative/deprecatory remarks are in an entirely different category and have a more negative effect overall than positive/encouraging/appreciative remarks. Why tear anyone down--including yourself?

[TABmom]

I try not to say things about myself that I wouldn't want my kids to say about themselves. It would break my heart to hear my dd say she was ugly. (I am guessing it wouldn'5 break your heart, based on what you said about your husband.) I believe my kids are beautiful. But even if they technically weren't, I would still think that they were because I love them so much.

[MaeFlowers]

I don't know, really. To me it's always been rather obvious that owning a functioning body that is average in most aspects is a 'good thing'. Why would it be a bad thing? I wouldn't even really be 'me' without my body. It's fairly essential!

 

What criteria does a body have to meet in your eyes before you would willingly call it 'good'? Could you go for 'adequate'? Would you really be happier to not own it?

 

I totally know that some people luck out on the body lottery: they get beauty, or athletic ability, or hand-eye talents, or whatever. That's lovely for them! I like it when other people get nice things!

 

The existence of these statistical outliers doesn't mean that the vast majority of human bodies are 'no good'.

 

Aside from the disease, disability or disfigurement -- most human bodies are self-evidently 'good' bodies (and many people who have those difficulties remain grateful for what aspects of good bodies they do have). Anyone who doesn't think so isn't using logic.

Well, I've thought of my body being mostly functional as a good thing. But, I've never valued my particular body as super awesome. I have always wanted a different body, hair, eyes, skin, etc. I guess I see them as separate thing.

 

As to finding it adequate. It works okay. It could be better. But, on the outside, it probably will never see it as adequate. Saying I'm ugly actually wasn't me putting myself down in my eyes. It was me owning what I actually am and accepting it. I've tried telling myself my outsides are good but it usually only makes things worse.

[maize]

If you really don't feel that calling yourself ugly has a self-deprecatory meaning to you then maybe you just need to hear in mind that it will come across to other people as self-deprecatory.

 

The fact that you say you have always wanted different skin/hair etc. and that you use a word with powerful negative connotations (I don't think I have ever in my life heard ugly used with regard to a person in a way that was not meant to be derogatory) is really hard for me to read as not harmful. I think if I were your husband it would make me uncomfortable because it would feel like such a sad way for a person to think of themself.

 

When I look in a mirror, I don't think either that I am ugly or that I am beautiful; I basically just smile at myself in greeting and go on my way! I am me, not my appearance.

Edited January 15, 2017 by maize

[Guest]

I don't personally comment much on appearances. I will tell my daughter she looks really nice when she has just spent two hours getting ready for a dance competition--because stage appearance is supposed to be the focus of the getting ready effort. I will also sometimes comment that an outfit or hairdo look very nice.

 

I shy away from pretty much all qualitative labels of people. Labels that suggest a person IS a characteristic. I want to see people as people, not as a characteristic. To me saying "you look beautiful today" is different from saying "you are beautiful" and yes I do tend to avoid the latter even when it is true!

 

Beyond that though I do think that negative/deprecatory remarks are in an entirely different category and have a more negative effect overall than positive/encouraging/appreciative remarks. Why tear anyone down--including yourself?

I agree 100% with all of this.

 

My mother, I believe, wanted to boost the self-esteem of all of her children and she was extravagant with her praise of our looks. (She STILL does this and I'm freakin' 45!) Unfortunately, she did also continuously characterize us as being that thing. So it was always, "You ARE the most beautiful girl in the room" or "you ARE so smart." I appreciate that she was trying to do right by us, but I wish she did not do this. All it does is ratchet up the pressure to keep fitting her expectations. She also is/was quite critical or others who did not measure up in her eyes, and yes, I do think that voice still influences me today, when I think, "Well I have to wear this dress to hide such-and-such flaw..."

 

I also seek to compliment my kids in relation to something specific, "Your hair looks good like that," or "That's a cute outfit," or "that was very creative thinking." And, although I think my kids are very beautiful to look at, I almost never give them direct praise over being good-looking.

[Farrar]

It's definitely not inevitable.

 

My mother's mother really tore her down about her appearance for all her youth. My mother was tall and sort of awkward as a teen. She had a very different body type than her own mother. Her mother wasn't nasty, but she always made it clear it was a good thing my mother was smart and had other talents. Ick, right? She definitely suffered from low self-esteem about her looks. Not crippling (really, it's pretty crazy how my grandmother thought that - my mother is actually very good looking and always has been).

 

My mother was determined not to do the same thing to me. I can attest that it seriously never occurred to me until well into adulthood that I might not be attractive. Lol. In high school, I did get some flack from other girls for not being down on my appearance enough - like we're all supposed to bond by calling ourselves fat or something. I was just never appearance focused at all. I never wore make up, didn't shave, I just couldn't care that much, but I also always assumed that within that I was fine. Anyway, I credit my mother. It was sort of a revelation in college to realize that she herself had issues with how she looked and that her mother had given her those issues. She said to me that she was determined that I never feel that way. And it worked.

 

So I don't know what the magic formula is and I'm sure my own personality played some role. But it definitely can be done.

[MaeFlowers]

If you really don't feel that calling yourself ugly has a self-deprecatory meaning to you then maybe you just need to hear in mind that it will come across to other people as self-deprecatory.

 

The fact that you say you have always wanted different skin/hair etc. and that you use a word with powerful negative connotations (I don't think I have ever in my life heard ugly used with regard to a person in a way that was not meant to be derogatory) is really hard for me to read as not harmful. I think if I were your husband it would make me uncomfortable because it would feel like such a sad way for a person to think of themself.

 

When I look in a mirror, I don't think either that I am ugly or that I am beautiful; I basically just smile at myself in greeting and go on my way! I am me, not my appearance.

I just see it as fact. Like "I'm short" or "I'm skinny" would be a fact. So, I wasn't putting any value on it.

 

I asked dh and he agrees with you. I will take that to heart. I guess if I saw it that way, it would be upsetting.

[MaeFlowers]

I agree 100% with all of this.

 

My mother, I believe, wanted to boost the self-esteem of all of her children and she was extravagant with her praise of our looks. (She STILL does this and I'm freakin' 45!) Unfortunately, she did also continuously characterize us as being that thing. So it was always, "You ARE the most beautiful girl in the room" or "you ARE so smart." I appreciate that she was trying to do right by us, but I wish she did not do this. All it does is ratchet up the pressure to keep fitting her expectations. She also is/was quite critical or others who did not measure up in her eyes, and yes, I do think that voice still influences me today, when I think, "Well I have to wear this dress to hide such-and-such flaw..."

 

I also seek to compliment my kids in relation to something specific, "Your hair looks good like that," or "That's a cute outfit," or "that was very creative thinking." And, although I think my kids are very beautiful to look at, I almost never give them direct praise over being good-looking.

That's good to know, too. I tell my dd that she is beautiful. Emphasize the is. I do it because I want to counteract the idea that a dress or makeup will make her beautiful which is something that she does hear from others. I never heard I was pretty from my Mom. I always thought that maybe if I had, I wouldn't feel the way I do about myself. Maybe that's wrong.

 

This stuff all bugs me so much because I didnt/don't have any self esteem and I don't want that for my kids. I want them to like who they are and feel comfortable in themselves. That's a big deal to me.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I avoid comments about weight, looks, etc. with my kids.  I don't want them to focus on those things.  But I'm human and I don't always say the most perfect thing. I don't think a comment here or there is going to land my kids into a therapist's office for life. 

 

[maize]

While I am not familiar with any research looking directly at praise for appearance, this feels to me like it would tie in with the research on praise and developing a growth mindset. Basically, when a person is praised for something they perceive to be an inherent characteristic (therefor not under their control) such as intelligence they actually experience insecurity; when they are praised for something they perceive as being under their control (such as effort) they are empowered.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NWv1VdDeoRY

Edited January 16, 2017 by maize

[TammyS]

That's interesting. I've never thought about my body in terms of being a good thing. I've never been happy to own it either. How exactly do you get to that point where you think it is good?

 

How about doing something that would change the way you view your body?  Many women experience a complete shift in perspective when they take up running, including those who are by any definition "slow" runners.  It can be amazing to start at "30 seconds of slow running is going kill me" and go to "I'm going out for an easy 3 miles".

 

It does not, of course, have to be running.  But look around and see what you could do with your body, that you previously thought you couldn't and ask yourself if you REALLY can't, or is that just an unexamined assumption?

[TammyS]

But if I said I looked pretty in the picture, wouldn't that be considered good? Or would that still be judgmentalism? Is it only okay to say something if its positive? (About one's self.)

 

Both are objectively judgements.  I think the issue comes in when you either take a judgement of a specific instance and globalize it (I looked like crap in that picture, therefore, I look like crap in general, or I just plain am crap) or you attach too much importance to it (I looked good in that picture, therefore I am good, or I am happy only when I look good like I did in the picture and unhappy when I don't).

[Guest]

That's good to know, too. I tell my dd that she is beautiful. Emphasize the is. I do it because I want to counteract the idea that a dress or makeup will make her beautiful which is something that she does hear from others. I never heard I was pretty from my Mom. I always thought that maybe if I had, I wouldn't feel the way I do about myself. Maybe that's wrong.

 

This stuff all bugs me so much because I didnt/don't have any self esteem and I don't want that for my kids. I want them to like who they are and feel comfortable in themselves. That's a big deal to me.

I'm sorry. I can understand how you weren't given an appropriate image of yourself; that is probably part of what your DH is reacting to when he tells you not to say that.

 

I agree with what Maize said, that researchers identify that it produces better self-esteme when you are rewarded for an effort you made, as opposed to just possessing attractive looks, or some other natural attribute. The most self-esteem-boosting opportunities are when a person faces a challenge and overcomes it.

 

Also, if someone happens to be naturally good-looking, don't worry; people will tell them.

 

As far as not wanting them to think it was a particular outfit or lipstick that made them look nice: why is this bad? If I wear a particular dress and three different people, including one total stranger stops to tell me my dress is beautiful, I don't consider that a bad thing. I don't interpret it as, "Well, I only look good today because the Fashion gods smiled upon me and my dress is a hit." I generally think, "Well, if I want to look nice for any particular occasion, it's a good idea to wear this dress!" Or I will try to decide what works so positively about that outfit and then repeat that.

 

I think perhaps you're reacting to an idea that if "they" say you look nice in that dress, that means you have capitulated to society's expectations by wearing something generally regarded as pretty.

[maize]

my husband's parents are the most verbally affirming people I have ever met--constantly telling their kids (and kids' spouses :) ) what amazing, capable, smart, etc. people they are.

 

Dh has awful self esteem. Really horrible.

 

I don't by the way think his parents created that problem, but the situation does suggest to me that praise and affirmation cannot innoculate against self esteem issues.

 

Unfortunately.

[Guest]

my husband's parents are the most verbally affirming people I have ever met--constantly telling their kids (and kids' spouses :) ) what amazing, capable, smart, etc. people they are.

 

Dh has awful self esteem. Really horrible.

 

I don't by the way think his parents created that problem, but the situation does suggest to me that praise and affirmation cannot innoculate against self esteem issues.

 

Unfortunately.

My SIL's parents are this way, too. I remember once my SIL told me about a counselor she was meeting with who said something like this:

 

C: "Did your parents put a lot of pressure on you to perform to a certain standard?"

 

SIL: "Oh, no! They gave me constant praise, constant validation, constantly told me I could do anything, could acheive..."

 

C: "Yes. That's pressure."

[maize]

My SIL's parents are this way, too. I remember once my SIL told me about a counselor she was meeting with who said something like this:

 

C: "Did your parents put a lot of pressure on you to perform to a certain standard?"

 

SIL: "Oh, no! They gave me constant praise, constant validation, constantly told me I could do anything, could acheive..."

 

C: "Yes. That's pressure."

Yeah, I do sometimes wonder if their good intentions backfired; dh is not the only child in the family with anxiety and depression issues. I mostly ascribe that to genetics though. Maybe his parents were trying to counteract the anxiety they perceived when their kids were young by attempting to build their self esteem with praise. That approach really doesn't seem to have worked.

 

I've got a passel of naturally anxious kids myself (really do think there's some significant genetic factor there) so I sure hope I can find some more effective ways of helping them develop confidence. I like Brené Brown's stuff on courage.

[maize]

Oh, good grief. Parents cannot win...if they praise too much then that causes problems. If they praise the wrong thing, it causes problems. If they don't praise enough, they cause problems. You want to talk about pressure.... trying to say the exact correct thing so that your child grows up "correctly"

 

As for me, I like something I heard somewhere... We all have baggage. We all give our kids baggage. My aim is to only give them a small carry-on. :thumbup1:

I don't aim to be a perfect parent; I aim for doing the best I can given the limits of my knowledge, insight, time, energy, and circumstances.

 

I hope some day my kids will be able to look back at both my successes and failures and figure out how to parent one step up from whatever I can manage.

 

Parents don't shape kids; we lead and mentor and relate and interact and sometimes react :) We're human and so are they, neither parent nor child has the capacity for perfection (however that might be defined).

 

But you know what? Most of us love our kids to bits and want good things for them. If we make a sincere effort to walk beside them and help them navigate the various turns and tangles of their young lives we do a good thing.

[gardenmom5]

my parents were both depressed.  yes, it affected me. 

 

studies have demonstrated women who are obsessed with their weight, will produce (especially daughters) children who are obsessed with their weight.

 

I find it notable my obese sil (who talks about her latest diet or fitness scheme so often I want to scream), has dds who are . .  obsessed with their weight.  one to the point I'm growing concerned she will end up anorexic or bulimic.  at least she lives in another state than her mother.

because dh's family has multiple extended members who are obese (we're talking over 300lbs), he has always been cognizant of his weight.   when one adult child started eating lots of junk to "self-medicate" stress and health problems and got heavier, I had to get him to lay off the weight issue.  what needed addressing (and is being addressed), is the stress and health problems.

 

 

[Zinnia]

My mom struggles with thinking that she is attractive (she is).  She says that when she looks in the mirror, that's never what she sees.

 

Somehow, it didn't pass to me.  I have lots of struggles in my life, but I never worry about how i look or find myself less than, well, great.  :)  This has some issues that I have to deal with---to lose weight (as I am doing now), it's difficult to motivate me.  I have to really hit hard with the health point of view, because it's easy to default to, "well, I look pretty good already, so what's the point of this hard work."  But other than that (small int he scheme of things), I like being comfortable with me.  I like knowing that I'm definitely good enough.  I look pretty good, I can usually make people smile when I look at them, and I'm pretty pleasant to be around.  Dawg gone it, people like me.  :D  

 

But I have no idea how my mom created this beast.  I lie awake at night sometimes wondering if I'm doing enough for my kids, and hoping that they never battle the beast of not thinking they are enough.

[MaeFlowers]

How about doing something that would change the way you view your body? Many women experience a complete shift in perspective when they take up running, including those who are by any definition "slow" runners. It can be amazing to start at "30 seconds of slow running is going kill me" and go to "I'm going out for an easy 3 miles".

 

It does not, of course, have to be running. But look around and see what you could do with your body, that you previously thought you couldn't and ask yourself if you REALLY can't, or is that just an unexamined assumption?

I was never athletic so I just stayed away from it. I think I had exercise induced asthma when I was young. I sat out a lot and the teachers let me. Maybe that's part of it, too. I never got the message that my body was strong.

 

I might start walking. I'm not in shape to run at this point. But, it is a good idea. I had forgotten how exercise can make you feel more capable. Thank you for reminding me.

[MaeFlowers]

I'm sorry. I can understand how you weren't given an appropriate image of yourself; that is probably part of what your DH is reacting to when he tells you not to say that.

 

I agree with what Maize said, that researchers identify that it produces better self-esteme when you are rewarded for an effort you made, as opposed to just possessing attractive looks, or some other natural attribute. The most self-esteem-boosting opportunities are when a person faces a challenge and overcomes it.

 

Also, if someone happens to be naturally good-looking, don't worry; people will tell them.

 

As far as not wanting them to think it was a particular outfit or lipstick that made them look nice: why is this bad? If I wear a particular dress and three different people, including one total stranger stops to tell me my dress is beautiful, I don't consider that a bad thing. I don't interpret it as, "Well, I only look good today because the Fashion gods smiled upon me and my dress is a hit." I generally think, "Well, if I want to look nice for any particular occasion, it's a good idea to wear this dress!" Or I will try to decide what works so positively about that outfit and then repeat that.

 

I think perhaps you're reacting to an idea that if "they" say you look nice in that dress, that means you have capitulated to society's expectations by wearing something generally regarded as pretty.

I think I tie dresses/make-up to attractiveness in a negative way. If I could only be complimented when I wore a certain dress or make-up, then I was not actually attractive. It was fake, not real, attractiveness.

 

Its kind of like makeover shows. They take someone who looks like themselves. Then they put on make-up, change their hair color and buy dressy clothes and poof their pretty. Basically, the way you were born isn't good enough. I don't want my dd to feel like the way she was born isn't good enough. Because at the end of the day, when you take off the costume, you're only left with your natural self. You've got to deal with that.

[Guest]

Oh, good grief. Parents cannot win...if they praise too much then that causes problems. If they praise the wrong thing, it causes problems. If they don't praise enough, they cause problems. You want to talk about pressure.... trying to say the exact correct thing so that your child grows up "correctly"

 

As for me, I like something I heard somewhere... We all have baggage. We all give our kids baggage. My aim is to only give them a small carry-on. :thumbup1:

It's not like this, seeking. You're claiming a false dichotomy. It's like saying, "oh, good grief! We're not supposed to let them eat Gummy Bears for breakfast daily, and we're not supposed to forbid them from ever eating Gummy Bears because then they'll go wild eating Gummy Bears in college!" Nobody is saying you must measure every word for 18 years. But the overview of what you say will affect your kids. When you know better, you do better.

[Guest]

I think I tie dresses/make-up to attractiveness in a negative way. If I could only be complimented when I wore a certain dress or make-up, then I was not actually attractive. It was fake, not real, attractiveness.

 

Its kind of like makeover shows. They take someone who looks like themselves. Then they put on make-up, change their hair color and buy dressy clothes and poof their pretty. Basically, the way you were born isn't good enough. I don't want my dd to feel like the way she was born isn't good enough. Because at the end of the day, when you take off the costume, you're only left with your natural self. You've got to deal with that.

Okay, but most people are enhanced by those external things. Very few people are just naturally stunning the way they are born. FWIW, I don't think there's anything wrong with someone deciding that their natural appearance is acceptable to themselves and they don't "need" make-up or a certain hair style to look attractive. But that isn't what you're saying about yourself. You're saying that you're "ugly," and that is not the same thing as accepting one's appearance without enhancements. Make sense?