Can we talk jumping through hoops vs. CC? (UC related)

[OlgaLA]

For my homeschool, APs will be the easiest way to validate what we do not just in terms of UC admissions, but also in terms of mommy grades.

.....

There is no one way for sure.

 

That's the thing:  we all do what is best for our homeschools and students and hope that admissions will agree :) We chose DE vs AP or anything else because I just can't come close to the science labs our CC has. Plus, while DD succeeded in her first chemistry course there, when I gave her a practice SAT test, she couldn't come close to finishing it on time without a calculator. She is fine with math, she knows chemistry, but she is slow and prone to calculations mistakes without a calculator. I'll try to convince her to try and prepare for May testing in case she decides to go into science in a non-UC college, but I am not sure it is worth it.

 

Same with ceramics class she is taking now. I can't give her that at home. She is having fun there while covering her f-requirement. Now, math and English is a different story. AOPS online is accepted by UCs, and I don't see a better program around us. I am not sure about AP test though. We may try it when the time comes, but we are still in Geometry.

[dereksurfs]

Right, another factor here is the quality of the local high school. Our local high school (the one in our town), and our CC (in the nearby county seat) is very highly regarded. So if you aren't lucky enough to live near a very good high school, with great teachers and lots of good AP options, that can be yet another reason for the CC route to be more desirable.

 

Yes, I think this is where 'it depends' at least in part on what you have available locally. I had to opportunity to attend both a highly regarded high school and CC in California. The quality of the STEM courses as well as others made it an easy choice. I also attended UCLA extension as a high school student which is another option. Back in the day you had to attend UC extension courses in person. However now there are more online options with many of the top schools. This includes the highest rated CCs in CA. For example, Santa Barbara City College offers many classes online for CA residents: http://www.sbcc.edu/distanceeducation/onlinecourses.php. So in this regard, even if you live in an area with relatively poor high schools and CCs, you can still utilize these online offerings.

 

I'm also not saying APs are bad per se. I just don't think they are necessarily the only way to reflect one's high school abilities. The tide has been changing in this area as 8Fill pointed out and the trend will continue even more so for future graduating classes, IMO.

Edited January 11, 2017 by dereksurfs

[Chrysalis Academy]

Yes, I think this is where 'it depends' at least in part on what you have available locally. I had to opportunity to attend both a highly regarded high school and CC in California. The quality of the STEM courses as well as others made it an easy choice. I also attended UCLA extension as a high school student which is another option. Back in the day you had to attend UC extension courses in person. However now there are more online options with many of the top schools. This includes the highest rated CCs in CA. For example, Santa Barbara City College offers many classes online for CA residents: http://www.sbcc.edu/distanceeducation/onlinecourses.php. So in this regards, even if you live in an area with relatively poor high schools and CCs, you can still utilize these online offering.

 

I'm also not saying APs are bad per se. I just don't think they are necessarily the only way to reflect one's high school abilities. The tide has been changing in this area as 8Fill pointed out and the trend will continue even more so for future graduating classes, IMO.

 

Oops, I completely miswrote my post. Here is what I intended to say:

 

Right, another factor here is the quality of the local high school. Our local high school (the one in our town) sucks, and our CC (in the nearby county seat) is very highly regarded. So if you aren't lucky enough to live near a very good high school, with great teachers and lots of good AP options, that can be yet another reason for the CC route to be more desirable.

 

ETA: somehow I left out the word "sucks" which materially changed the meaning of my post - oops

[quark]

I can't let the perfect be the enemy of the good enough.

 

We have to teach the kids we have.

 

Both very well said. We are all dealing with our own goals and scenarios.

 

For us, online classes were heavily used from ages 8-11 which means that we were also paying a lot for them out of pocket. We were using the stipend from a charter school for a while but DS's math tutor was not an approved vendor and he did not want nor need to do the paperwork necessary for that. We paid this tutor a lot of money to keep DS well challenged or DS would have just wilted from lack of the type of math he wanted to learn (customized for DS, advanced conceptually and also proof-based and very unlike what many other online classes do...DS did not want to use AoPS classes so this was the next best thing for him). We were also living in a more rural area with only one similar-minded/ similar-valued friend for DS to meet regularly and play with.

 

After 3 years of this, I could not take it anymore. DS was too isolated. He needed to find friends, and he very obviously needed IRL classes. His eyes would positively shine when he was in the right type of IRL class and driving one hour one way to access these became exhausting. DS's tutor suddenly changed his style to prioritize his group class students over his one on one students.

 

So we started exploring DE. At that point it was not just about academics anymore. DS had another mentor at the same time as his math mentor. A wonderful, wonderful older jazz piano teacher and watching DS blossom with that kind of input, it was amazing. He has no grandparents or cousins here. This music teacher was like grandparent, mentor and friend to him. Unfortunately, we had to move for DE and give up the music teacher but DS could finally learn music IRL in IRL bands when he started to DE. An 11yo played with 18-25yos as well as 50-75yos and grew so much more assured of himself, learned so much more from this amazing community of musicians and then met an amazing Lit prof who helped further nurture an already present love of literature that I might not have been able to sustain on my own.

 

He had found community. This and the low cost was the main reason we stuck with DE. The math classes were disappointing. Truly disappointing. I thought he was going to lose his love of math. But thankfully, we were still homeschooling and could make decisions on the fly. He stuck with the calculus series and the frustration led *him* to contact the UC prof on his own. Not me. Him. Previously he would pull me along but always leave me to do most of the negotiations with the teachers. I think he needed that level of frustration to come out of his shell and make that push for himself. After that push to DE at UC Extension, he pushed himself to go away for 6 weeks and live on his own to learn math across the country. This is my kid who acts the loner/ OCD, will not take public transport but is very matured and is easily annoyed when boys act like boys. He had to live six weeks on his own with many boys acting like boys. As always, he hung out with the older mentors and had a fantastic time and created another community for himself. I credit the DE experience for giving him the courage to do so.

 

These are some of the benefits that I see from his DE experiences. If he had taken the AP route, he would have been stuck at home most of the time with online classes. He is finally taking 2 APs now and I don't really see them being that much better than his DE classes to be honest but I know that this depends on quality of CC and prof. He likes his AP Chem and AP Lit teachers as much as he likes his DE music and lit profs. So just based on this one thing, I cannot really tell if PAH's AP classes would have been better for him than his CC classes. They are about the same.

 

And oh, for the money we paid to the CC, definitely a very much more affordable fraction of AP, he is also very likely going to get full college credit. Bonus!

Edited January 11, 2017 by quark

[dereksurfs]

Both very well said. We are all dealing with our own goals and scenarios.

 

For us, online classes were heavily used from ages 8-11 which means that we were also paying a lot for them out of pocket. We were using the stipend from a charter school for a while but DS's math tutor was not an approved vendor and he did not want nor need to do the paperwork necessary for that. We paid this tutor a lot of money to keep DS well challenged or DS would have just wilted from lack of the type of math he wanted to learn (customized for DS, advanced conceptually and also proof-based and very unlike what many other online classes do...DS did not want to use AoPS classes so this was the next best thing for him). We were also living in a more rural area with only one similar-minded/ similar-valued friend for DS to meet regularly and play with.

 

After 3 years of this, I could not take it anymore. DS was too isolated. He needed to find friends, and he very obviously needed IRL classes. His eyes would positively shine when he was in the right type of IRL class and driving one hour one way to access these became exhausting. DS's tutor suddenly changed his style to prioritize his group class students over his one on one students.

 

So we started exploring DE. At that point it was not just about academics anymore. DS had another mentor at the same time as his math mentor. A wonderful, wonderful older jazz piano teacher and watching DS blossom with that kind of input, it was amazing. He has no grandparents or cousins here. This music teacher was like grandparent, mentor and friend to him. Unfortunately, we had to move for DE and give up the music teacher but DS could finally learn music IRL in IRL bands when he started to DE. An 11yo played with 18-25yos as well as 50-75yos and grew so much more assured of himself, learned so much more from this amazing community of musicians and then met an amazing Lit prof who helped further nurture an already present love of literature that I might not have been able to sustain on my own.

 

He had found community. This and the low cost was the main reason we stuck with DE. The math classes were disappointing. Truly disappointing. I thought he was going to lose his love of math. But thankfully, we were still homeschooling and could make decisions on the fly. He stuck with the calculus series and the frustration led *him* to contact the UC prof on his own. Not me. Him. Previously he would pull me along but always leave me to do most of the negotiations with the teachers. I think he needed that level of frustration to come out of his shell and make that push for himself. After that push to DE at UC Extension, he pushed himself to go away for 6 weeks and live on his own to learn math across the country. This is my kid who acts the loner/ OCD, will not take public transport but is very matured and is easily annoyed when boys act like boys. He had to live six weeks on his own with many boys acting like boys. As always, he hung out with the older mentors and had a fantastic time and created another community for himself. I credit the DE experience for giving him the courage to do so.

 

These are some of the benefits that I see from his DE experiences. If he had taken the AP route, he would have been stuck at home most of the time with online classes. He is finally taking 2 APs now and I don't really see them being that much better than his DE classes to be honest but I know that this depends on quality of CC and prof. He likes his AP Chem and AP Lit teachers as much as he likes his DE music and lit profs. So just based on this one thing, I cannot really tell if PAH's AP classes would have been better for him than his CC classes. They are about the same.

 

And oh, for the money we paid to the CC, definitely a very much more affordable fraction of AP, he is also very likely going to get full college credit. Bonus!

 

Quark,

 

Thanks so much for taking the time to share your son's story. You've always provided such great insights on the forum. I really enjoyed hearing your DS' journey with DE courses. I find it fascinating that he actively pursued the UC prof on his own. Its seems as though you really encouraged him to pursue the areas he was passionate about. My son also likes Jazz piano. He actually took his first DE class with the Monterey Jazz Festival's education program at our local CC. It was a great way to introduce him to a different peer group with a tremendous love of music. 

 

Regarding the UC Extension courses, I was wondering if the current rules are similar to when I was in school. For example, can college credits still be earned and applied toward the student's degree similar to CC or normal Uni DE courses? 

 

Thanks,

Edited January 11, 2017 by dereksurfs

[quark]

Quark,

 

Thanks so much for taking the time to share your son's story. You've always provided such great insights on the forum. I really enjoyed hearing your DS' journey with DE courses. I find it fascinating that he actively pursued the UC prof on his own. Its seems as though you really encouraged him to pursue the areas he was passionate about. My son also likes Jazz piano. He actually took his first DE class with the Monterey Jazz Festival's education program at our local CC. It was a great way to introduce him to a different peer group with a tremendous love of music. 

 

Regarding the UC Extension courses, I was wondering if the current rules are similar to when I was in school. For example, can college credits still be earned and applied toward the student's degree similar to CC or normal Uni DE courses? 

 

Thanks,

 

Thank you for your kind words Derek! I love the community I have here with parents of similar aged kids. It's wonderful seeing them all grow up together and I remember you mentioned your son's jazz interest elsewhere. I remember thinking, that's so cool, wish we knew you guys IRL! I am so happy for your son that he could experience and enjoy that. It's so special seeing musicians work together, sensing each other without words, and with jazz, picking up one solo improvisation where another leaves off. I love it. Each gig fills me I think with as much joy as it does DS and everyone there knows I am his mom too...this is the one class where I don't feel silly tagging along to gigs and concerts (not classes though -- I wouldn't do that to DS!) because it's all acceptable. I so wish he could keep taking classes there (they have a limit of 3 retakes per band class so maybe he still can!).

 

So nice that you could take Extension classes! Did you see a guarantee somewhere at that time that you were earning credit by taking them? Unfortunately, Berkeley Extension does not guarantee credits. Perhaps they did at one time but I don't see it anywhere on their catalog. This could be because many of the classes are off campus, professional certifications and other types of corporate classes. Their math only goes up to Calculus 2 I think. For concurrent enrollment into higher classes, DS still had to sign up via Berkeley Extension but the course he took last spring and the next that he will take this spring are both normal university classes taken with full time students at the Berkeley campus and taught by Cal professors. Same homework, quizzes, discussion groups and TAs and same midterms and finals. Every requirement is the same. There is one difference. DS's transcript shows UC Berkeley Extension on the letterhead and an X before the course code to indicate that it was an Extension class. I made sure to say in my course descriptions for a private U that DS applied to that he took the class in person at the campus but since you do not send course descriptions in to UC for college applications, I hope the adcomm will realize it was a regular Cal class (I don't know if UC and UC Extension talk to each other in some way). There is no guarantee of credit earned although we pay full price (it was almost 3K for last year's and I think it will be similar this year). But I am very sure DS will challenge it if accepted to Berkeley and not given credit. The class he takes this spring needed last spring's class as a prerequisite (although no one really seems to check it if they can see the student looks prepared).

 

Sorry that I cannot provide a more certain answer. We should hopefully know by this coming fall and if I can remember to, I will update! There is also no guarantee that another campus will accept Cal's extension credit so we will just keep fingers crossed for now.

 

CC classes are easier to predict re transferable credits/ prerequisites earned thanks to assist.org

Edited January 12, 2017 by quark

[mirabillis]

 

 

I had to outsource because I was getting too much pushback and non-compliance from my child. She is willing to work for her CC professors in a manner that she had stopped being willing to do for me. I know it's a fairly common developmental phase and why many HSers put their kids into B&M schools in 8th or 9th grade. Our local PS is terrible (no honors or AP classes until 11th and a gang problem) and we don't have the budget for private.

 

 

Yes, yes, yes to the above! We're moving to outsourcing everything next year (10th grade), while just last year (8th grade), we outsourced a single math class! My son adheres to outside deadlines and instructors' directives far better than mine.

 

For now, we're sticking with APs over DE for 2 reasons. One: If he can achieve A's in these courses, it will help his GPA. Some UC schools do look at a weighted GPA, whereby only AP courses (not honors) count toward that. For those schools that don't count APs toward GPA, many scholarships do. Two: I am a bit hesitant to jump into the CC DE route yet as everything counts forever... it seems so final, I like the flexibility (though not the cost) of the outsourced AP courses.

[dereksurfs]

Thank you for your kind words Derek! I love the community I have here with parents of similar aged kids. It's wonderful seeing them all grow up together and I remember you mentioned your son's jazz interest elsewhere. I remember thinking, that's so cool, wish we knew you guys IRL! I am so happy for your son that he could experience and enjoy that. It's so special seeing musicians work together, sensing each other without words, and with jazz, picking up one solo improvisation where another leaves off. I love it. Each gig fills me I think with as much joy as it does DS and everyone there knows I am his mom too...this is the one class where I don't feel silly tagging along to gigs and concerts (not classes though -- I wouldn't do that to DS!) because it's all acceptable. I so wish he could keep taking classes there (they have a limit of 3 retakes per band class so maybe he still can!).

 

So nice that you could take Extension classes! Did you see a guarantee somewhere at that time that you were earning credit by taking them? Unfortunately, Berkeley Extension does not guarantee credits. Perhaps they did at one time but I don't see it anywhere on their catalog. This could be because many of the classes are off campus, professional certifications and other types of corporate classes. Their math only goes up to Calculus 2 I think. For concurrent enrollment into higher classes, DS still had to sign up via Berkeley Extension but the course he took last spring and the next that he will take this spring are both normal university classes taken with full time students at the Berkeley campus and taught by Cal professors. Same homework, quizzes, discussion groups and TAs and same midterms and finals. Every requirement is the same. There is one difference. DS's transcript shows UC Berkeley Extension on the letterhead and an X before the course code to indicate that it was an Extension class. I made sure to say in my course descriptions for a private U that DS applied to that he took the class in person at the campus but since you do not send course descriptions in to UC for college applications, I hope the adcomm will realize it was a regular Cal class (I don't know if UC and UC Extension talk to each other in some way). There is no guarantee of credit earned although we pay full price (it was almost 3K for last year's and I think it will be similar this year). But I am very sure DS will challenge it if accepted to Berkeley and not given credit. The class he takes this spring needed last spring's class as a prerequisite (although no one really seems to check it if they can see the student looks prepared).

 

Sorry that I cannot provide a more certain answer. We should hopefully know by this coming fall and if I can remember to, I will update! There is also no guarantee that another campus will accept Cal's extension credit so we will just keep fingers crossed for now.

 

CC classes are easier to predict re transferable credits/ prerequisites earned thanks to assist.org

 

That's awesome that you get to enjoy your son's jazz gigs! How cool is that?!!  :thumbup:

 

Since it was before the dawn of time when I last took an extension class my memory is a little fuzzy. But I do remember my dad helping me select the right course at the time which had the potential to transfer credits toward a degree. I also remember there were other courses which were simply for personal or professional enrichment. So it still sounds very similar to what you've described. No school ever questioned it being a valid credit-bearing course even though it was taken through UCLA extension. 

 

That's great that he got to attend in person. I remember there being a strong social aspect with certain courses. But I also think that depends upon a number of factors similar to any school really. For example, the courses which meet in the huge auditoriums with larger class sizes tend to be far less personal - the 101 freshman courses. For those I couldn't really see a tangible benefit over their equivalent CC courses. And for the significant difference in cost it seemed a little silly especially given the greater drive, parking situation, etc...

Edited January 12, 2017 by dereksurfs

[dereksurfs]

BTW, thank you everyone for participating. I have always dreamed of having a separate forum for CA homeschoolers to share their state specific issues. While living in CO, it was so much more common for students to attend the UC equivalents there. CA definitely has its own unique challenges and benefits which young college students must navigate if they want to remain in state.

[OlgaLA]

Yes, yes, yes to the above! We're moving to outsourcing everything next year (10th grade), while just last year (8th grade), we outsourced a single math class! My son adheres to outside deadlines and instructors' directives far better than mine.

 

For now, we're sticking with APs over DE for 2 reasons. One: If he can achieve A's in these courses, it will help his GPA. Some UC schools do look at a weighted GPA, whereby only AP courses (not honors) count toward that. For those schools that don't count APs toward GPA, many scholarships do. Two: I am a bit hesitant to jump into the CC DE route yet as everything counts forever... it seems so final, I like the flexibility (though not the cost) of the outsourced AP courses.

 

As far as I know, GPA calculations are more complex than that. From the way it is written, I think the exam will count in any case, but for the weighted GPA the AP course itself has to be UC-approved and on a-g list. It also counts UC- transferable DE courses as an extra point. The question is what they will do if some of your courses are homemade. Will it help your GPA, because they will only count 5 or 4 classes? Or will they mostly ignore it, because it is not comparable?  I wish it were easier...

 

[Roadrunner]

As far as I know, GPA calculations are more complex than that. From the way it is written, I think the exam will count in any case, but for the weighted GPA the AP course itself has to be UC-approved and on a-g list. It also counts UC- transferable DE courses as an extra point. The question is what they will do if some of your courses are homemade. Will it help your GPA, because they will only count 5 or 4 classes? Or will they mostly ignore it, because it is not comparable? I wish it were easier...

 

😳🤕

[quark]

The question is what they will do if some of your courses are homemade. Will it help your GPA, because they will only count 5 or 4 classes?

 

For UC GPA, homemade courses can dilute calculation. Thankfully, most of DSs unschooled classes were from 9th. We still went ahead and reported everything. Partly from foolishness, partly from defiance ha ha. I heard that UCB and UCLA do not cap the number of courses counted.

[quark]

That's awesome that you get to enjoy your son's jazz gigs! How cool is that?!! :thumbup:

 

Since it was before the dawn of time when I last took an extension class my memory is a little fuzzy. But I do remember my dad helping me select the right course at the time which had the potential to transfer credits toward a degree. I also remember there were other courses which were simply for personal or professional enrichment. So it still sounds very similar to what you've described. No school ever questioned it being a valid credit-bearing course even though it was taken through UCLA extension.

 

That's great that he got to attend in person. I remember there being a strong social aspect with certain courses. But I also think that depends upon a number of factors similar to any school really. For example, the courses which meet in the huge auditoriums with larger class sizes tend to be far less personal - the 101 freshman courses. For those I couldn't really see a tangible benefit over their equivalent CC courses. And for the significant difference in cost it seemed a little silly especially given the greater drive, parking situation, etc...

Re gigs, it helps that spouses/ parents/ friends of other musicians attend too otherwise I would really stick out! :)

 

By chance, only the honors section was available for Diff Eq and DS lucked out with about 18 in the class of which only 15 or so attended regularly. Interestingly, the grad student TA was amazing. The prof (no RMP reviews) not so much.

 

Next week, he starts upper division where there are only about 35 per class. Again, only honors section was available and he will be 1 of 18-20 again. Fingers crossed that prof is better this time (RMP reviews are mixed).

 

eta: that is wonderful that no one questioned it, Derek. I am hoping it will be the same for DS. Thank you for sharing!

Edited January 12, 2017 by quark

[8filltheheart]

I haven't watched this, but this link about Berkeley admissions was posted on CC. https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=M-4pi-zlk8g Thought you CA ladies might find it useful.

[Laurel-in-CA]

Do I remember somebody mentioning here that Cal Poly was particularly difficult for homeschoolers? It's the cheapest school for many of us in state and a great one for STEM minded kids. Dig a little deeper on them because I do remember something particular about them.

 

I have heard that Cal Poly-San Luis Obispo (SLO) is just as competitive as the more desirable UC campuses....really hard to get into. I don't know if that's true of Cal Poly-Pomona.

[quark]

I haven't watched this, but this link about Berkeley admissions was posted on CC.

Thought you CA ladies might find it useful.

 

Thanks for sharing 8! I made notes for my local homeschool to college group so I thought I'd post it here too.

 

Here's the College Confidential thread where link was shared: http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/university-california-berkeley/1941506-uc-berkeley-2021-applicants-thread-p8.html

 

It's a long video (about an hour). You can skip the first 3 mins if you like (unless you are interested in the speaker's impressive credentials - a Harvard and Berkeley trained math and economics grad).

 

My DS was NOT asked for an LoR from Berkeley which probably puts him squarely in either the Yes or No category so I watched this presentation avidly, trying to glean as much info as I could. I might have left out some important things (esp. when he crunched numbers and showed charts and that's also because I am not a stats head).

 

Gist of presentation: mainly about Berkeley starting to ask for LoRs from fall 2015 onwards. Probably produced around Sept/ Oct 2016.

 

Notes:

 

3:00-18:00

• 2 kinds of information in admissions - quantitative and qualitative
• The numbers (test scores, grades) -- could make decisions by running numbers/ taking weighted average of these -- for a long time, this was how most UCs did things
• Most schools now use practices that are not easily quantifiable and are broader in meaning -- essays, letters of rec, holistic review. Is it actually improving applications or making it worse?
• Are we learning more about academic preparedness? Might be written by a parent or might offer better insight into creating a well-rounded class or might just add deniability to the admissions process
• The unintended Berkeley experiment – admissions is more selective (<20%) and Berkeley now starts asking for LoRs for information they won’t get via application
• LoRs will only give info where other info was not enough for a firm decision so applicants are sorted into Yes/Maybe/No and requests for LoRs were sent out to Maybes.
• Therefore, Maybes will get 2 reads (those who did not submit letters were not ruled out)
• What was the impact of the letters? Did they change decisions/ lead to better decisions and what about them did that?
• How they study the impact is to start looking at first year grades. (SEE Q&A SECTION)
• Challenge: Berkeley changed a lot of things in that Fall 2016 application cycle:
  • Added LoRs
  • Eliminated augmented review – some applications pulled out for extra consideration
  • Changed point system to Yes/No/Maybe
  • Scored holistic/ non-cognitive factors
  • Read every application 2x
  • Incorporated faculty as 3^rd readers
  • Higher admit rate (21% vs 19%)
  • Extended use of waitlist

 

18:00-27:00 Watch this segment for how he does the math!

• Approx. 80,000 applicants every year – about 13-14,000 admitted
• Different process for recruited athletes
• About a third of applicants asked for LoRs, about 88% of them asked their teachers/ counselors for LoRs and almost everyone got at least one letter in (87%)

 

27:00 – 35:00 How LoR requests went out:

• Read application, request letter from Maybes
• Add a second track. Use model to predict read score from 2015 data; request LoR from applicants predicted in 2016 to be Maybes
• 80% of LoR requests came from second track method
• He shows how asking for letters actually hurt chances of getting in or improved chances of getting in
• Conclusion: being asked for letters changed admissions, reduced chances of admitting people with stronger numbers and raised chances of admitting those with weaker numbers, and didn’t have differential negative effect on underrepresented applicants

 

35:00 – 39:30 Outcomes

• Looking at 2017 data in real time – some interesting ideas here about whether a more effusive letter helps, does a letter with more “Iâ€s vs “He†or “Sheâ€s help etc
• Other UCs…what will happen?
• Follow up and see how admitted students do – are people we brought in better than people we pushed out

 

39.30 – the end Q&A

• Clarification from admissions - Admit rate went up because spaces were increased
• High Maybes – things that distinguish are ECs and personal statements
• Impact cannot be seen yet because first year grades are not yet in
• Effect on 2017 process – none on actual process…going to study decisions after they are made
• Some of the analysis was just for College of Letters and Sciences; did consider if student was applying to Engineering etc…but no big difference in results
• Nonresidents were also asked for LoRs but this study did not consider nonresidents
• UC did look at common applicants to both Berkeley and UCLA and pulled out just College of L&S applicants – in that pool, overall the admit rate was lower in UCLA than in Berkeley (Berkeley was less selective than UCLA) and admit rate for underrepresented applicants from that pool was higher at UCLA.

 

I hope the formatting comes through okay!

Edited January 13, 2017 by quark

[Crimson Wife]

Only 20% of Berkeley's students are CA residents????? :cursing: :thumbdown:

 

I'm not sure what the fair % should be, but at minimum it should be 51%. At the state's flagship university, there should be more CA residents than OOS & foreign students.

[EmilyGF]

Only 20% of Berkeley's students are CA residents????? :cursing: :thumbdown:

 

I'm not sure what the fair % should be, but at minimum it should be 51%. At the state's flagship university, there should be more CA residents than OOS & foreign students.

Looking at Berkeley's site it looks like 21% of Californian applicants get admitted. So last year alone, 9,758 Californians were admitted. Given that there are 27,000 undergrads in total at Berkeley, a 20% number seems really fishy to me.

 

The out of state and foreign admit rates are much lower, as are the numbers (see same site).

 

Emily

[Arcadia]

Quark,

 

Thanks for typing a summary, I won't have had the patience to watch the video.

 

Only 20% of Berkeley's students are CA residents????? :cursing: :thumbdown:

 

I'm not sure what the fair % should be, but at minimum it should be 51%. At the state's flagship university, there should be more CA residents than OOS & foreign students.

UCB freshman profile for fall 2016 says 67.6% CA residents

"Admit rate — Overall 17.5%

Admits 14,429

Applicants 82,571

California Residents (% of admits) 67.6%"

http://admission.universityofcalifornia.edu/campuses/berkeley/freshman-profile/index.html

 

ETA:

My kids aren't interested in any of the state universities. We won't qualify for the UC Middle Class Scholarship program either.

http://admission.universityofcalifornia.edu/paying-for-uc/glossary/middle-class-scholarship/index.html

Edited January 13, 2017 by Arcadia

[quark]

I hope this comes through. Screen grab of his numbers:

 

[Arcadia]

I hope this comes through. Screen grab of his numbers:

For Fall 2016

 

For all applicants, 14423/82578 = 17.5% admit

For CA residents 9610/45626 = 21.1% admit

 

CA residents admit compare to total admit = 9610/14423 = 66.6%

 

So 2/3 of admits are CA residents

 

I think that was the confusing part. 20% of CA applicants were admitted but they take up 66.6% of the admitted cohort.

[Roadrunner]

I found my answer

Edited January 13, 2017 by Roadrunner

[quark]

Although he mentioned it, I will remove that part about the 20%...sorry for the confusion folks!

Edited January 13, 2017 by quark

[mirabillis]

Thanks quark for the synopsis. I'm not a big video gal - so an hour of my time watching a video was time probably never found. Very insightful!

[SeaConquest]

Quark, I would take that info as good news for your DS!

[quark]

Quark, I would take that info as good news for your DS!

 

20 fingers (and 20 toes, 8 paws, and 2 tails) crossed! :laugh:

 

[...................]

I worry about The LORs.

 

My son (praise God I'm so thankful for Him) impresses every adult he meets with his work ethic and usually, intelligence and talent in some areas. But I don't know too many that will work with him for more than a year. Because of the nature of in-person and online outsourcing I don't know, is a year enough to write someone a true heartfelt LOR?

[mirabillis]

We are positioning ourselves to try to have adult mentors in our lives for at least 2 years. We are trying to find at least (1) online or DE teacher for 2 years straight... and at least (1) adult from EC. We're in 9th grade, and that's going to be the basis for some directions we're headed in. Purposely thinking of LOR writers. I've read that that is something for us HSers to give special credence to, to think ahead to who they will be.

[quark]

deleted -- sorry, spoke too soon with no concrete results (i.e. college acceptance) to back my opinion.

Edited January 13, 2017 by quark

[daijobu]

Do the a-g's need to be satisfied by the end of junior year in order to count?  

[quark]

http://admission.universityofcalifornia.edu/freshman/requirements/

 

Found the link where it says preferably 11 of minimum 15 finished by junior year.

[gstharr]

I am just feeling really down/frustrated by the idea of jumping through UC hoops.  I am realizing that it is actually compromising my plans for my son's enriching high school experience.  It's expensive, and frustrating, and stressful.  

 

Finding online UC approved classes, paying for AP classes and then taking, and studying for AP and SAT Subject tests, this all just seems to frustrating and stressful for my son.  We are spending 5K per year on his online classes that fulfill A-G requirements.  That's almost enough to pay for CC here. 

 

Many times the classes that are UC approved are worse than what we would get at CC, and don't have the depth of Christian content we would like if he chose his own courses (which he would be able to do for at least one more year if we don't bother with UC requirements), and some are downright lame.   

 

I am not talking about DE because that falls under the category of the smorgasbord of paths-to-UC. We would definitely USE DE as part of my son's choices to fulfill uC requirements,

 

but this post is about CC and transfer VERSUS Fulfill UC Requirements.

 ... the good community college that has the classes my son needs, is more than 25 minutes away by highway.  It would not be wise to allow a new driver to drive there by himself, with our traffic and poorly designed highways.  (bad signage, terrible on/off ramps that merge several highways at the same time, long rainy season and severe congestion)  So if my son did to the CC-Transfer route, starting at CC in 11th grade and going 2 or 3 years and then transferring, I would have to drive him at least the first year, or it would be about 1 hour and a half by bus, one way.  

 

My son likes the idea of going to college as a freshman.  He is fairly hardworking and motivated BUT he does whatever is in front of him. He does not plan more than a few days ahead for anything in his life and he certainly doesn't care to research UC requirements or worry about any of that.  We will find out if he tests well this year as he is taking an AP and a SAT Subject for Biology.  So far I have always planned to make my decision based on how he does this year.  If he does great on these two, then I figured it's obvious he has the power to get through the rigorous testing required to fulfill A-G requirements.  I figured, if he does poorly, then it's a sign that we need to go the CC and Transfer Route.  

 

But now I am thinking it would be so nice to design our courses the way we want, and for him to take the courses that he wants, in the time frame that he wants, starting in 11th grade. And who knows?  Maybe we would find a carpool parent going from our neck of the woods over to the good CC. 

 

I just hate it that high school has to be this way.   :(  He really wants to eventually get to Cal Poly or UC Davis, and honestly the private U's are so unbelievably expensive....even if he got scholarships or the job of his dreams he would be laden with astronomical debt.  

Calming Tea, it is your idea or your son's idea to go UC?  He won't research the requirements for admissions, does not plan ahead, will only  do what is in front of him. Add, that he can't drive to school, even though he can schedule classes around traffic, the bus would be too burdensome for him. 25 miles is just  a good bike ride. He might be exposed to non-Christian values.  I went to a major UC for professional school. I don't see how your son can survive at a large impersonal, and extremely competitive environment w/o you guiding him.  Do you realize what your son will be exposed to on any UC campus: drugs,sex and rock and roll is the least of it.    if his grades and all are good enough for UCS, why not  some of the smaller and slightly religious oriented privates.  In California, Pomona, Loyola, Pepperdine are example.   Some have no alcohol and other parental rules. 

[...................]

 

 

Anyway to Update everyone else it's a moot point. My son is taking the CHSPE and going to CC at 15 and I will drive him there :) he is very excited and also met some good friends that go there. I

Think this makes a lot more logical sense and I'm super happy for him to have made this decision although I understood his original desire to go straight to college as a freshman.

 

Happy homeschooling :)

[quark]

Anyway to Update everyone else it's a moot point. My son is taking the CHSPE and going to CC at 15 and I will drive him there :) he is very excited and also met some good friends that go there. I

Think this makes a lot more logical sense and I'm super happy for him to have made this decision although I understood his original desire to go straight to college as a freshman.

 

Happy homeschooling :)

 

CT, I hope the decision brings you much peace and at least lowers anxiety levels by a lot. Many CCs (especially in the Bay Area) are a fantastic place for our kids to blossom, find friends and just thrive following their interests. As you would with any homeschool provider, just keep checking on reviews and making careful decisions.

 

And if I may, I wanted to share that you can still enroll him in your homeschool (under the private school affidavit) and not graduate him unless you want to, he turns 18, or does not want to be under your homeschool.

 

CHSPE is not a factor in the UC admissions process as mentioned here:

http://admission.universityofcalifornia.edu/counselors/q-and-a/selection/#2

 

Good luck! :grouphug:

[...................]

CT, I hope the decision brings you much peace and at least lowers anxiety levels by a lot. Many CCs (especially in the Bay Area) are a fantastic place for our kids to blossom, find friends and just thrive following their interests. As you would with any homeschool provider, just keep checking on reviews and making careful decisions.

 

And if I may, I wanted to share that you can still enroll him in your homeschool (under the private school affidavit) and not graduate him unless you want to, he turns 18, or does not want to be under your homeschool.

 

CHSPE is not a factor in the UC admissions process as mentioned here:

http://admission.universityofcalifornia.edu/counselors/q-and-a/selection/#2

 

Good luck! :grouphug:

Very true!!! You are the best; always have such helpful tidbits for me!!!

 

Also thanks for the encouragement!!

 

This changes a lot for us all but I feel true peace over it.

 

 

((Hugs))

CT

[Roadrunner]

CT, I hope the decision brings you much peace and at least lowers anxiety levels by a lot. Many CCs (especially in the Bay Area) are a fantastic place for our kids to blossom, find friends and just thrive following their interests. As you would with any homeschool provider, just keep checking on reviews and making careful decisions.

 

And if I may, I wanted to share that you can still enroll him in your homeschool (under the private school affidavit) and not graduate him unless you want to, he turns 18, or does not want to be under your homeschool.

 

CHSPE is not a factor in the UC admissions process as mentioned here:

http://admission.universityofcalifornia.edu/counselors/q-and-a/selection/#2

 

Good luck! :grouphug:

Do you know what taking CHSPE changes for a kid? i am trying to figure out what are the pros and cons of passing this exam for Homeschoolers.

[quark]

Do you know what taking CHSPE changes for a kid? i am trying to figure out what are the pros and cons of passing this exam for Homeschoolers.

 

If you look at http://chspe.net, About the Test, you will find this paragraph:

 

Passing the CHSPE does not, by itself, exempt minors from attending school. Minors who have a Certificate of Proficiency must also have verified parent/guardian permission to stop attending school. Many students who pass the CHSPE continue to attend school. State law provides that, if you leave school after passing the CHSPE and are no more than 18 years old, you may reenroll in the district in which you were registered with no adverse consequences. If you do reenroll you may be required to meet new or additional requirements established since you were previously enrolled. If you reenroll and then leave school again, you may be denied re-admittance until the beginning of the following semester. Contact your guidance counselor or school administrator for further information and details about leaving school after passing the CHSPE.

Dropping out of school after registering for the CHSPE or while awaiting results is unlawful for those under 18 years old. It may also result in failing grades for courses in which you are enrolled.

 

After passing the CHSPE:

• A child receives the Certificate of High School Proficiency
• He/she can attend community college as a regular student (not dual enrolled high school student) and enjoy priority registration but has to pay the $46 (at the moment, might change) per unit fee vs free DE or lower DE fees
• Can work even if under age
• Can be re-enrolled in high school/ middle school/ private school affidavit homeschool (my homeschool charter refused to consider re-enrollment) until age 18 (and I am assuming it is 18 because once a child is 18, he/ she makes his/ her own school decisions) -- this is the bit of info we used to keep DS enrolled in our homeschool

The test itself is not very hard if you have a student who already works hard, finds math easy etc. DS found it a little easier than the SAT. It is the 4-hour or so testing time that can be tiring on younger students (depending on the proctor, there might be fewer breaks).

 

ETA: the main benefit for DS was being able to take on a 10-14 unit per semester course load and not have to wait for everyone else to enroll before finding a seat or being waitlisted for a class (prof) he wanted. E.g. for fall term , he could enroll as early as May/June and have his schedule almost fully planned way ahead of high schoolers doing CC via DE. Our CC is a major transfer student feeder to UCB and is highly impacted and why having priority was so very helpful! Other CCs might not be as full as ours was.

Edited February 26, 2017 by quark

[...................]

^^ Yes, this is all so well spelled-out..

 

And I want to reiterate that our CC's are also impacted...(way overcrowded) so that's why we don't bother with DE...our kids have such low priority as DE students they can't get anything but weird or unusual classes like Japanese.... :)

[Roadrunner]

^^ Yes, this is all so well spelled-out..

 

And I want to reiterate that our CC's are also impacted...(way overcrowded) so that's why we don't bother with DE...our kids have such low priority as DE students they can't get anything but weird or unusual classes like Japanese.... :)

So it would allow us to have same priority as other college kids and we could take as many classes as possible as opposed to being limited to two, right?

What about freshman scholarships. We don't plan on graduating DS early, so if we used CC for some classes after taking that high school exam, does that mean we can't be considered freshman when the time comes? I am so utterly confused by all this. And just the other day somebody was telling me if we took that exam my kids could go to high school and take whatever class they want.

[quark]

So it would allow us to have same priority as other college kids and we could take as many classes as possible as opposed to being limited to two, right?

What about freshman scholarships. We don't plan on graduating DS early, so if we used CC for some classes after taking that high school exam, does that mean we can't be considered freshman when the time comes?

 

Yes, as many classes as you like (but I think they might flag you if you take too many, I'm not too sure, they do want students to succeed and not overburden themselves). And same priority as other college students.

 

I'm not sure about private unis but DS was invited to interview for Berkeley's Regents and Chancellors scholarship as a freshman admit despite having all of these CC classes (with about 60+ credits of which about 58 IIRC are transferable and he will have an extra 8 UC Extension credits which should be accepted too).

 

Just make sure you don't graduate your kid from your high school. As long as these credits are obtained before your own high school's graduation date, I believe your kid should be set for UCs. That was what we did. Of course, I don't know if UC will change any of this down the road. But for now this seems to be fine.

 

Edited February 27, 2017 by quark

[Roadrunner]

What do you mean "make sure don't graduate." We plan on filing as a private school as soon as we hit high school officially. Do you mean keep filing every year? If we don't they assume we graduated him?

I have days whan I think I got this and days when I think I know nothing. 🤕

[quark]

What do you mean "make sure don't graduate." We plan on filing as a private school as soon as we hit high school officially. Do you mean keep filing every year? If we don't they assume we graduated him?

I have days whan I think I got this and days when I think I know nothing. 🤕

Let me rephrase it. To apply as a freshman, just make sure all CC work is completed before your son graduates from high school be it your psa homeschool high school or some other high school.

 

It is confusing and worrying but things do fall into place day after day, month after month, year after year. Like my friend advised me, just keep asking the good questions. No question is a bad question.

 

Eta: yes we filed the psa every year. I am going to miss that! 😊

Edited February 27, 2017 by quark

[quark]

We did not have to show any proof of psa filing in the UC application by the way. Not sure if they will ask to see that proof when I submit kiddo's transcript in summer.

[Laura in CA]

We did not have to show any proof of psa filing in the UC application by the way. Not sure if they will ask to see that proof when I submit kiddo's transcript in summer.

 

Coming late to the party – sorry! This was three years ago (!), but UC Berkeley didn't need proof of anything. (I think I've posted about this before.) They just need my son's transcript submitted in a sealed envelope, and the transcript had to be signed by me and his graduation date had to be indicated. OTOH, UC San Diego wanted my son's transcript notarized. (Well, first they wanted it submitted or signed by "the local school district that oversees our homeschooling"; I had to educate the admissions office on the CA education code.) I didn't ask at UCLA or any of the other schools.

Edited March 10, 2017 by Laura in CA

[quark]

Thank you Laura!

[mirabillis]

Coming late to the party – sorry! This was three years ago (!), but UC Berkeley didn't need proof of anything. (I think I've posted about this before.) They just need my son's transcript submitted in a sealed envelope, and the transcript had to be signed by me and his graduation date had to be indicated. OTOH, UC San Diego wanted my son's transcript notarized. (Well, first they wanted it submitted or signed by "the local school district that oversees our homeschooling"; I had to educate the admissions office on the CA education code.) I didn't ask at UCLA or any of the other schools.

 

 

UCSD is one of those notoriously sticklers for a-g requirements by-the-book, aren't they? do we know anyone IRL or on the boards admitted to UCSD - or is it not as holistic and open to homeschoolers as others of the UC schools?

[quark]

UCSD is one of those notoriously sticklers for a-g requirements by-the-book, aren't they? do we know anyone IRL or on the boards admitted to UCSD - or is it not as holistic and open to homeschoolers as others of the UC schools?

 

According to College Confidential, last fall's applicants will find out today at 3pm! :tongue_smilie:

 

Edited March 10, 2017 by quark

[mirabillis]

let me know if we hear of any! love to know. :-)

[Roadrunner]

Maybe I can ask in this thread. Aops Algebra B and Intermediate Algebra are both UC a through g approved with the same designation - Algebra 2. How would one list them on a transcript? As two different Algebra 2 courses?

[quark]

RR, I would list them by course name on both transcript and application, exactly as AoPS calls them.