When HS is outlawed

[SparklyUnicorn]

I'm not sure how a lady saying she doesn't get around to doing a lot of school with her "very young" children is in the same category as parents who locked and starved a child in the basement.

 

By the way I can assure you a child can be abused while in public school daily. I was forced to perform sex acts at home and went to elementary school not saying anything because the person has threatened me not to.

 

Not only that, I do not know what goes on in people's homes.  Lot of people claim neglect is rampant.  How do they know that?  Or are they assuming based on a few comments?  Or because it just "seems" that way.

I don't over think it.  I don't accuse people I meet for a few minutes here or there of neglecting their kids.  I would not know that.  I also don't accuse people of neglect because they are having a bad day or asking what they should do about XYZ. 

[Guest]

They don't require that in my state. I file a form once a year and then that's it.

 

So, no, we (the global we) do not all have enough oversight to prevent the worst basic educational neglect. State laws are a patchwork and there are large, vociferous groups who oppose even the most basic oversight which just gives abusers space to hide.

Education should look different state by state - that's appropriate, but don't kid yourself that just adding enough oversight, wherever that arbitrary line falls, will somehow prevent some or even most of the criminal behavior you're identifying.

 

The real life outworking of that is that those who care, care, and those who don't, don't. We can always find examples of law breakers, but they are not the majority of the population even in low regulation states like my own (I do far beyond the basic requirement here). Why is this an education issue instead of an adoption issue? Parenting issue? Home ownership issue? Why do homeschoolers have to take on the regulatory impact of this criminal behavior that could be correlated with numerous other lifestyle choices of the criminal - with their personal *criminality* being the primary factor above all else?

[Bluegoat]

To me, the basic issue is this: 

 

It's a good thing if the community is looking out for kids, in case there is abuse in the home.  Some social institutions can help with this, even if it isn't their main purpose, because they come in contact with kids and families more often  Those people can be on the look-out as part of their job.  It makes sense to have them do this and make sure they know what to look for.  It won't fix everything but it can help.

 

For various reasons, some kids may be less likely to come in contact with those people, so those kids, if they are abused, may be less able to be helped.  That doesn't make the reason those kids are in a different situation wrong, its just a bit of a gap.

 

So - is there a good way to close that gap?

[SparklyUnicorn]

Education should look different state by state - that's appropriate, but don't kid yourself that just adding enough oversight, wherever that arbitrary line falls, will somehow prevent some or even most of the criminal behavior you're identifying.

 

The real life outworking of that is that those who care, care, and those who don't, don't. We can always find examples of law breakers, but they are not the majority of the population even in low regulation states like my own (I do far beyond the basic requirement here). Why is this an education issue instead of an adoption issue? Parenting issue? Home ownership issue? Why do homeschoolers have to take on the regulatory impact of this criminal behavior that could be correlated with numerous other lifestyle choices of the criminal - with their personal *criminality* being the primary factor above all else?

 

Yes.  I submit a yearly notice, a detailed plan of what I'm going to do for each kid, 4 progress reports, and an end of the year assessment (test on most years some years it can be a narrative).  The test has to be some sort of recognized state standardized test.  The testing part is the one part that I think would be difficult to fudge. So to me that is the absolute most meaningful part.  The rest?  I could completely make the information up.

 

HOWEVER, from the start I could just not report my kids at all.  Who would know? 

[pinkmint]

Agreed, Sparkly.

 

And maybe my perspective doesn't matter much because after reading what a couple posters here said, I'd probably be on their educational neglect watch list but...

 

For what it's worth I think the original story here is much more an issue of abuse by some disturbed individuals who don't deserve to be called parents. Not so much about homeschool but I see what the conversation is.

 

Some people make it seem like educational neglect is basically the norm in homeschool though. Or that unless you have a PhD and are rigorously cracking the advanced learning whip all day that you shouldn't be attempting to homeschool.

 

I too wonder how people happen to know the inner workings of so many family's home lives that they are confident to claim educational neglect is basically rampant in their homeschool community.

Edited December 8, 2016 by pinkmint

[SparklyUnicorn]

I too wonder how people happen to know the inner workings of so many family's home lives that they are confident to claim educational neglect is basically rampant in their homeschool community.

 

I doubt they actually do.  If someone is trying to hide abuse, I find it hard to believe they'd be inviting people over all the time. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

But can't you go to WalMart and buy some more?  That's what I used to do.

 

As for glasses, unless we think our prescription has changed, we just keep wearing the old ones until they break.  :p

 

Ok...now that WOULD probably work.

 

I wear my glasses forever too.

[Guest]

Yes. I submit a yearly notice, a detailed plan of what I'm going to do for each kid, 4 progress reports, and an end of the year assessment (test on most years some years it can be a narrative). The test has to be some sort of recognized state standardized test. The testing part is the one part that I think would be difficult to fudge. So to me that is the absolute most meaningful part. The rest? I could completely make the information up.

 

HOWEVER, from the start I could just not report my kids at all. Who would know?

And I'm not opposed to standardized testing either. I like tests, I'm weird. But I do also recognize that those can cause real issues if the evidence from them is actionable or in any way linked to funding or support, especially when they are required across the board and yet we recognize that learning disabilities, asynchronicity, or even a vastly different progression to the scope and sequence of a chosen education can produce weird results. There can be issues even in implementing that sort of basic standard. I think the benefits outweigh the disadvantages overall but I'm not insensitive or ignorant to be arguments of those opposed to requiring standardized testing either. They might be in favor of compulsory inclusion of certain subjects, which I personally find problematic beyond the broadest math/literacy competency.

 

We each have our shibboleths - but taking those to mean they automatically are the best basic hurdle for everyone to leap is where I disagree. What constitutes the bare minimal oversight varies wildly and letting it do so, voted on as locally as possible, seems to me the best and most constitutional compromise. But yes, problems will still occur no matter how many laws are implemented - the law is wholly inadequate for one who is disinclined to keep it, and it doesn't matter *what* that law actually is.

Edited December 8, 2016 by Arctic Mama

[TravelingChris]

AL does not have cover school like some states do. It has,church schools and the respective church decides on what kind of documentation and/or contacts they want to have. Many church schools if not most of them here require more than just a name and attendance. I moved here in 2011 and many of the schools in my area were more demanding than the school I chose -- such as classes on how to homeschool, day to day portfolios, etc. My school made certain that both parents agreed to homeschooling, for example. The church involved sets the rules.

 

As to lead testing, I know that,all of my children were tested because they didn't live on new housing ever. I think all of our homes were built in the sixties or early 70s.

 

 

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

[SparklyUnicorn]

And I'm not opposed to standardized testing either. I like tests, I'm weird. But I do also recognize that those can cause real issues if the evidence from them is actionable or in any way linked to funding or support, especially when they are required across the board and yet we recognize that learning disabilities, asynchronicity, or even a vastly different progression to the scope and sequence of a chosen education can produce weird results. There can be issues even in implementing that sort of basic standard. I think the benefits outweigh the disadvantages overall but I'm not insensitive or ignorant to be arguments of those opposed to requiring standardized testing either. They might be in favor of compulsory inclusion of certain subjects, which I personally find problematic beyond the broadest math/literacy competency.

 

We each have our shibboleths - but taking those to mean they automatically are the best basic hurdle for everyone to leap is where I disagree. What constitutes the bare minimal oversight varies wildly and letting it do so, voted on as locally as possible, seems to me the best and most constitutional compromise. But yes, problems will still occur no matter how many laws are implemented - the law is wholly inadequate for one who is disinclined to keep it, and it doesn't matter *what* that law actually is.

 

There are ways to deal with learning disabilities (and testing).  Also, the requirements are very low.  But yes I do think there are probably circumstances where it's not great or testing cannot reasonably take place. 

 

The person who breaks their neck to deal with these regulations is probably not the abusive person.  I know what I go through to get this all done and the related annoyances.  So when someone says well they should have more regulation, yes I do get my panties in a twist because I already deal with too much regulation. 

[Guest]

Yeah, agreed.

[IfIOnly]

I don't see abuse as Just a homeschool issue. I've seen 3 new teacher sexual abuse cases in the news just this week. The news has been rampant with these stories the last few years, I've noticed. Abusers seek places of power and control over children, whether it's at school or home.

 

 

I'm in favor of educational testing but don't know how much difference more regs would make with the truly physically abusive situations. :/ It's not that difficult to fly under the radar with homeschooling.

[LMD]

I don't know - do kids go for yearly checks past pre-school in any places other than the US? And do they get urine tests and blood tests as a matter of course when they do go?

 

They test blood on newborns here, but not generally after that.

 

More testing doesn't necessarily help prevent problems.

 

This seems to me like it might be related to the way you fund things.

Here in Australia, it is much like you describe.

Pre elementary, we have free maternal child health nurse visits every few weeks at the beginning to yearly. They aren't compulsory though, and you can always go to the gp instead.

 

We have free vaccination, usually with a nurse at the same centre or gp office. We also have free or heavily subsidised doctor visits for school readiness at 4-5.

 

We also have school dentists where kids can access free/reduced fee basic dental care. Homeschoolers can access this if they are registered.

 

I have met many many homeschoolers. There were only 2 that I had a question mark about neglect. One of those was already on docs' radar for other reasons; the other was a 'not coping' situation, they were lovingly confronted and supports put in place. The kids are young enough (under 10) that they can fix this. But people noticed. I don't let neglect type comments go unanswered, if someone jokingly asks if they have to teach to algebra, I tell them heck yes you do! We work hard to make sure that our community encourages high academic standards.

 

I've actually been thinking about this topic - regs - a lot lately because it is currently up for review in my state. We get much better adherence rates, in terms of registration, when the regulations are not onerous and when there is genuine good will from the department. A cooperative approach, rather than a demonising, punitive one.

[FaithManor]

Not only that, I do not know what goes on in people's homes.  Lot of people claim neglect is rampant.  How do they know that?  Or are they assuming based on a few comments?  Or because it just "seems" that way.

I don't over think it.  I don't accuse people I meet for a few minutes here or there of neglecting their kids.  I would not know that.  I also don't accuse people of neglect because they are having a bad day or asking what they should do about XYZ. 

People in my anti-education community brag about it. Not kidding. They don't see anything wrong with it.

 

The woman I reported is not someone I had just met for "minutes". You are making some serious assumptions. I have friends that teach in the PS. The stories that abound of kids forced into the PS because relatives make waves about educational neglect would scare you. Many of these kids are so far behind that even if neurotypical they are relegated to special education because they can't be mainstreamed. There simply is no way for a teacher with 30 kids in her classroom to get that child anywhere near the capability of the other students. That is saying a lot because my local PS is an educational pit if you ask me. It has caused an educational divide here. The local educators are willing to admit that homeschooling works "for the actual homeschoolers", but they feel those numbers are very low with far more not actually doing education of any kind at home while unwilling to enroll in the PS or a private school. They are seeing too much of this to scoff.

 

I had known her for three years, and she was vocal about her educational "philosophy". Many people in that church had her children in classes and when you have a kid who is ten who cannot spell or write his five letter first name, and the mother is proud of it, vocal about figuring she'd maybe teach him to read some time, and this is a very direct violation of state law, then at some point, yah....people are going to think they should report it. 

 

Due to Michigan having no accountability, it is not all that uncommon for homeschoolers here, especially churched ones, to share what they do and do not do. They don't think there is anything wrong with it. I am SHOCKED at what people will brag about. It is pretty sad.

 

In addition, dh and I have mentored multiple late teens, young adults who have suffered severe educational neglect under the guise of homeschooling, and that includes some of them coming to live here when they ran away from home or attained majority age. I am not talking from a place of ignorance here. Nan, Creekland, and other who are on the high school/college board know some of the particulars. I have seen the true dark side enough to know that our state should do something about it.

 

This isn't a bad day, a bad week, a bad month. This is perpetual, year in, year out neglect that leaves 18 year olds unable to do basic consumer math, read beyond a 3rd or 4th grade level, unable to pass a GED or even begin remedial coursework because they are so darn far behind. Adults functioning at 3rd/4th grade literacy and numeracy levels. The high school boardies have mentored teens who have come here to WTM asking for help to get caught up, to figure out how to move forward.

 

Check out some of the stories at leaving fundamentalism. There are some pretty angry formerly "homeschooled" young adults over there.

 

I would never turn anyone in for whom I didn't have personal knowledge of what goes on. But if those parents spend a year constantly talking about deliberately neglecting their kids, I am not afraid to make the call. If that isn't what is actually happening at home, they should consider not getting attention for themselves by grossly exaggerating their situation. That's the only reason I can think of for maintaining one thing, and actually doing something else.

[LMD]

Education should look different state by state - that's appropriate, but don't kid yourself that just adding enough oversight, wherever that arbitrary line falls, will somehow prevent some or even most of the criminal behavior you're identifying.

 

The real life outworking of that is that those who care, care, and those who don't, don't. We can always find examples of law breakers, but they are not the majority of the population even in low regulation states like my own (I do far beyond the basic requirement here). Why is this an education issue instead of an adoption issue? Parenting issue? Home ownership issue? Why do homeschoolers have to take on the regulatory impact of this criminal behavior that could be correlated with numerous other lifestyle choices of the criminal - with their personal *criminality* being the primary factor above all else?

Yes, I agree. The default should not be that homeschoolers are neglectful abusers unless we have docunented evidence to the contrary.

[maize]

I don't see abuse as Just a homeschool issue. I've seen 3 new teacher sexual abuse cases in the news just this week. The news has been rampant with these stories the last few years, I've noticed. Abusers seek places of power and control over children, whether it's at school or home.

 

 

I'm in favor of educational testing but don't know how much difference more regs would make with the truly physically abusive situations. :/ It's not that difficult to fly under the radar with homeschooling.

I wonder what the point of the testing is though. I mean, what if I test my child and the test shows that they are in the 10th percentile for their grade? It's information...but who is going to do what with that information? One in ten kids in the public school system would be at or below the 10th percentile. Maybe it happens because my particular child is on the lower end of average IQ. And maybe they've been working harder to achieve what they have than a kid With a gifted level IQ who tests in the 90th percentile... Edited December 8, 2016 by maize

[SparklyUnicorn]

I wonder what the point of the testing is though. I mean, what if I test my child and the test shows that they are in the 10th percentile for their grade? It's information...but who is going to do what with that information? One in ten kids in the public school system would be at or below the 10th percentile. Maybe it happens because my particular child is on the lower end of average IQ. And maybe they've been working harder to achieve what they have than a kid With a gifted level IQ who tests in the 90th percentile...

 

Yep, I agree.

 

It's funny because in the Q & A section of the regs it basically says you can't hold the school responsible for lousy results in the end.  You can't hold the school responsible for lousy results in the end even if you send your kid to school! 

[maize]

Here in Australia, it is much like you describe.

Pre elementary, we have free maternal child health nurse visits every few weeks at the beginning to yearly. They aren't compulsory though, and you can always go to the gp instead.

 

We have free vaccination, usually with a nurse at the same centre or gp office. We also have free or heavily subsidised doctor visits for school readiness at 4-5.

 

We also have school dentists where kids can access free/reduced fee basic dental care. Homeschoolers can access this if they are registered.

 

I have met many many homeschoolers. There were only 2 that I had a question mark about neglect. One of those was already on docs' radar for other reasons; the other was a 'not coping' situation, they were lovingly confronted and supports put in place. The kids are young enough (under 10) that they can fix this. But people noticed. I don't let neglect type comments go unanswered, if someone jokingly asks if they have to teach to algebra, I tell them heck yes you do! We work hard to make sure that our community encourages high academic standards.

 

I've actually been thinking about this topic - regs - a lot lately because it is currently up for review in my state. We get much better adherence rates, in terms of registration, when the regulations are not onerous and when there is genuine good will from the department. A cooperative approach, rather than a demonising, punitive one.

I agree 100% that a cooperative, supportive approach is going to yield the best results.

 

Some subsets of homeschoolers are so antagonistic themselves towards anything related to the government that a cooperative approach is not really possible, but those subsets are the most likely to go underground and do their own thing regardless of regulations anyway. They are fortunately a minority in most places.

 

A bigger issue in my experience is antagonism towards homeschoolers on the part of official folks, especially many associated with public school administration. It seems to me that if the welfare of homeschooled children is a priority then support and encouragement from the public education sector is more likely to contribute to that goal than disdain or antagonism.

[SparklyUnicorn]

 

A bigger issue in my experience is antagonism towards homeschoolers on the part of official folks, especially many associated with public school administration. It seems to me that if the welfare of homeschooled children is a priority then support and encouragement from the public education sector is more likely to contribute to that goal than disdain or antagonism.

 

Yep.  I haven't experienced too much negativity directed at homeschoolers, but I have encountered some.  I don't trust the intentions of those I have to deal with.  Like the woman who I had to deal with when she claimed I didn't send in my last report.  I've been sending those reports for 9 years.  Suddenly I forgot one?  Ok let's say I did (I did not).  I felt she was being ridiculous towards me.  She sent me a letter and basically said send it by tomorrow or else.  Why the demand?  Why tomorrow?  They don't even respond to my paperwork or send me the paperwork they are supposed to complete. 

[FaithManor]

Arctic brings up a good point, but are we willing to go there? The reality is that every state has compulsory attendance laws. Therefore, low regulations or high, parents who do not follow the state statute for homeschooling are truant like it or not. And yes, there needs to be evidence that this kind of thing is taking place before phone calls are placed. Neglect shouldn't be the default position.

 

Now in the grand scheme of things, it isn't necessarily a homeschooling issue per se. Not from the perspective of homeschooling as a general idea, a general freedom, but it does end up kind of falling squarely in our laps for lack of any other place for it to land. Same as PS. There are good PS's out there, they get the job done. Kids are getting a great education there. However, it ends up by default being overshadowed in the general discussion of public school education by the truly crappy ones out there. It isn't fair to the PS's doing the job well, but it is how it is. We aren't immune from the same phenomenon.

 

One thing to consider though is the issue of religious freedom. A LOT of this stuff happens due to extremist religious ideology or at least it seems that way. My exposure to non educators who are secular humanists, atheists, agnostics, whatever doing this is just about zero. In terms of those that use homeschooling as an excuse to keep their kids home and NOT do education has been nearly always where the family is rooted in a concept that education is bad, that beyond a certain primary level it woos students and adults away from the religious group. Oh sure we've got drug addicts and what not that can't be bothered to get their kids out of bed in the morning to be sent to school, and we've got low life scums that keep kids home in order to hide abuse. But in all of these cases, I've never actually heard local authorities place this under "homeschooling". It is listed for what it is, abusive behavior that has nothing to do with education or being anti-education, or substance abuse, or ... While an article like this might some how be making it a "homeschooling issue", I've not really seen that from the actual authorities investigating these things. Usually it comes out what the real issue was. That leaves us with the cases of educational neglect for the sake of being ideologically aligned with deliberately wanting kids to be under educated for the sake of ideology.

 

That then begs the question, where do religious rights for parents end, and the rights of the children begin? I think that is fundamentally where the discomfort comes. None of us are actually really talking about the bad week, bad month, even a single bad year scenario. We are talking about the deliberately going out of the way out of either sheer laziness or out of ideology to prevent an education from taking place which takes people who are used to living in a nation in which religious rights have been pretty supreme to squirmy thoughts. 

 

What is the comfort zone for reigning that in? I'd personally like to see the state go after our local Amish sect. They are pretty extremist even for the Amish and only hold school to sixth grade, and only six months of the year. So it is a bizarrely limited education which makes it nigh unto impossible for young adults who might not want to stay Amish to get out. That is usually not a popular sentiment with people who feel that Amish religious rights should be preserved, generally meaning I'm not well liked for that position on this board. LOL, that's okay. It is all a very good discussion to have!

[SparklyUnicorn]

What is the comfort zone for reigning that in? I'd personally like to see the state go after our local Amish sect. They are pretty extremist even for the Amish and only hold school to sixth grade, and only six months of the year. So it is a bizarrely limited education which makes it nigh unto impossible for young adults who might not want to stay Amish to get out. That is usually not a popular sentiment with people who feel that Amish religious rights should be preserved, generally meaning I'm not well liked for that position on this board. LOL, that's okay. It is all a very good discussion to have!

 

Yeah I don't understand why religious groups can essentially do what they want in that realm.

 

 

[maize]

Arctic brings up a good point, but are we willing to go there? The reality is that every state has compulsory attendance laws. Therefore, low regulations or high, parents who do not follow the state statute for homeschooling are truant.

In my current state, filing an affidavit is truly the ONLY thing required. Parents just have to affirm that they are assuming full responsibility for educating their child, that education can be whatever they want.

 

It's basically parental rights above all and as far as I can tell makes educational neglect entirely legal. I don't know if there are statutes outside of the education code that might apply though. Certainly there are statutes regarding physical abuse and neglect.

 

(Please don't blame me, I had no role in writing this law! I didn't at all mind the old one that required parents to teach the same subjects as the public schools.)

 

Law excerpted below:

 

(2) (a) A local school board shall excuse a school-age minor from attendance, if the school-age minor’s parents files a signed and notarized affidavit with the school-age minor’s school district of residence, as defined in Section 53A-2-201, that:

(i) the school-age minor will attend a home school; and

(ii) the parent assumes sole responsibility for the education of the school-age minor, except to the extent the school-age minor is dual enrolled in a public school as provided in Section 53A-11-102.5

(b) A signed and notarized affidavit filed in accordance with Subsection (2)(a) shall remain in effect as long as:

(i) the school-age minor attends a home school; and

(ii) the school district where the affidavit was filed remains the school-age minor’s district of residence.

© A parent of a minor who attends a home school is solely responsible for:

(i) the selection of instructional materials and textbooks;

(ii) the time, place, and method of instruction, and

(iii) the evaluation of the home school instruction.

(d) A local school board may not:

(i) require a parent of a school-age minor who attends a home school to maintain records of instruction or attendance;

(ii) require credentials for individuals providing home school instruction;

(iii) inspect home school facilities; or

(iv) require standardized or other testing of home school students.

Edited December 8, 2016 by maize

[ktgrok]

 

I hate standardized testing so I would be all for portfolio review, and not necessarily by local PS teachers either. Could be private teachers, could be college professors, could be a child developmental specialist. I'd be happy if there was a very large, robust list of options for parents. 

 

 

I think Florida does this pretty well. Options if you are enrolled with the county as homeschooling:

 

1. Standardized test administered by a teacher with a valid license (either at the school for free, or you pay a proctor). Means kid does have someone's eyes on them. 

 

OR

 

2. Portfolio, reviewed by a certified teacher of your choice. Lots of homeschool moms keep up their teaching credentials just to do this. Cost is low, and again, means a human saw your kid (you bring the kid with you). And as teachers are mandatory reporters, if they suspect abuse they have to report it. No specific subjects or level of study to be proven, just "making progress commensurate with ability". You send in the letter they sign to the county, not the actual portfolio. Again, you pick the teacher, one who meshes with your teaching style. 

 

OR

 

3. Note from a psychologist (I can't remember if it has to be an educational psychologist, I don't think so). I've never known anyone who did this option. 

 

Now, you can avoid that and sign up with an umbrella school....which a lot of people do, but I don't. I think it is more credible that I keep records and a portfolio, etc. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

I would like a portfolio option.  Definitely. I have one kid who buzzes through the tests.  The other kid did great on the tests, but it was torture for him.  He absolutely hated it.

[luuknam]

These requirements are not a burden in other states.  They are part of the package- you want to take over the most important part of a childhood, you prove you are actually doing it. 

 

Um, I'm not taking over the most important part of the childhood any more than I'm taking over feeding my kids or taking over giving them a place to sleep.

 

It's like eye exams.  In other countries it is good enough to get a prescription checked every other year (or less).  Here they require it yearly. No reason that I can fathom except to charge more money.

 

In NL the eye exam at the optometrist is free. They make their money by selling glasses and contact lenses.

 

Yes.  I submit a yearly notice, a detailed plan of what I'm going to do for each kid, 4 progress reports, and an end of the year assessment (test on most years some years it can be a narrative).  The test has to be some sort of recognized state standardized test.  The testing part is the one part that I think would be difficult to fudge. So to me that is the absolute most meaningful part.  The rest?  I could completely make the information up.

 

It's as simple as telling the school district you're going to give x test, and then writing on your last quarterly that you gave x test on y date and that the kid scored >33rd percentile. If you wanted to go overboard, you could actually order the test and bubble it in yourself and then send it back to the testing company. I really think an annual physical by an MD would be much more effective at reducing abuse, and a lot less problematic for parents whose kids happen to be in the bottom 1/3 of the IQ scale.

[SparklyUnicorn]

 

 

 

In NL the eye exam at the optometrist is free. They make their money by selling glasses and contact lenses.

 

 

The regular exam is cheap or free, but the big expense for me is the contact lens exam.  Those are so freaking expensive. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

 

 

It's as simple as telling the school district you're going to give x test, and then writing on your last quarterly that you gave x test on y date and that the kid scored >33rd percentile. If you wanted to go overboard, you could actually order the test and bubble it in yourself and then send it back to the testing company. I really think an annual physical by an MD would be much more effective at reducing abuse, and a lot less problematic for parents whose kids happen to be in the bottom 1/3 of the IQ scale.

 

I do know some parents who just report results.  I send the official results.  It feels weird to me to just do it that way, but yeah I guess I could because the regs don't say I need to send the official results.

[Guest]

I'm also against compulsory testing. Especially but not only for primary school aged kids.

 

I would take kids out of school for testing I don't agree with (and be able to do this without penalty) so no way in hell am I going to submit to it for my homeschooled kids.

And that kind of the point I was making above. Even when trying to write some sort of standard we don't all agree on which one to use. Who prevails? Is it the one who wants tests and portfolios? The one who wants contact teachers and attendance logs? The one providing work samples? The one just wanting notification letters of intent? Health checks? Home inspections?

 

Who prevails and why? Which standard is standard enough to supposedly prevent some threshold of criminal behavior?

 

I know you and I agree on this Sadie, I'm just using your post as a jumping off point :)

[maize]

I'm also against compulsory testing. Especially but not only for primary school aged kids.

 

I would take kids out of school for testing I don't agree with (and be able to do this without penalty) so no way in hell am I going to submit to it for my homeschooled kids.

 

At some point, there has to be a balance between what is required of non-abusive, non neglectful parents in order to reduce the rates of abuse and neglect. I'd also like good data showing the link between upping requirements and a statistically significant reduction in abuse/neglect amongst people calling themselves 'homeschoolers', if indeed there is one.

 

Data might sway me.

I've wondered about this. Is there any evidence at all of lower rates of abuse/neglect in high regulation vs. low regulation areas?

[Matryoshka]

ETA I forget sometimes that not everyone finds record keeping to be burdensome. It is extremely difficult for my ADHD brain and yes is a serious burden.

 

 

Well, there's record-keeping, and then there's record-keeping.  I live in, according to the HSLDA, one of the strictest states.  But I don't have to do any of the kind of record-keeping I think you'd find onerous.  I just write a summary of what I've done once a year, and send it in.  I don't have to track hours, or attendance, or make or track any kind of plan or give grades or keep papers.

 

There is an option to do a portfolio-style review instead, but it's one of three options (the other is standardized test).  We also have no requirement to ever meet with anyone ever, so I guess someone could make it all up and locking their kids in the basement.... 

 

I've also seen some pretty shoddy homeschooling, but I have a feeling most of those people are 'underground' - ie not reporting at all - or in some cases taking the option of not reporting after the drop-out age of 16.

 

It would be a serious burden for me (also with some ADHD brain) to keep meticulous records - I'd end up making half of it up after I'd realized I didn't write anything down for a few months...

[SparklyUnicorn]

I've wondered about this. Is there any evidence at all of lower rates of abuse/neglect in high regulation vs. low regulation areas?

 

Not much different from are there lower rates of crime in states with the death penalty?  Nope  (Not exactly intending to compare the two, but just saying more regulation and more law doesn't necessarily equal better behavior.) 

[IfIOnly]

I wonder what the point of the testing is though. I mean, what if I test my child and the test shows that they are in the 10th percentile for their grade? It's information...but who is going to do what with that information? One in ten kids in the public school system would be at or below the 10th percentile. Maybe it happens because my particular child is on the lower end of average IQ. And maybe they've been working harder to achieve what they have than a kid With a gifted level IQ who tests in the 90th percentile...

I've assumed that's part of the reason why the testing required scores are so low, to account for kids who struggle with testing and have lower IQs? I think kids have to score better than the 15th percentile in OR. Kids are required to test every other year and only twice in elementary school (grades 3 and 5). I don't think that all is too burdensome. I know a couple of times testing has been valuable to me and helped me get back on track in areas I was convinced the kids were doing fine in. They are fine test takers, it was the skills that were lacking. I'm not super opinionated either way though about testing requirements though. I see both sides of the issue.

 

Eta: basically the required percentages to pass our standardized tests prove a child can read and do basic maths.

Edited December 8, 2016 by ifIonlyhadabrain

[FaithManor]

I would like a portfolio option.  Definitely. I have one kid who buzzes through the tests.  The other kid did great on the tests, but it was torture for him.  He absolutely hated it.

I truly think that a portfolio is just so much more accurate for every child. I have said to the local school board on numerous occasions that the best way to decide if a child should be promoted to the next grade is let the principal and a team of teachers look at a portfolio of work. Don't send it all home. Keep a variety of papers and kinds of assignments from every core subject for each student. Send it home at the end of the year after the decision has been made. Tests don't show the whole picture. It is also a much kinder method for kiddoes with LD's that make timed testing really nerve wrecking.

 

It is what I'd be in favor of here. You file an affidavit, and at the end of the year you produce the portfolio. No it won't end abuse by any stretch. But it would then put someone in place to question what is going on, and if something needed to be done, maybe a little teeth to it. For those on the fence of whether or not they are really capable of home education it might tip the scales, or make those that really care but are having a hard time either dig deeper or take a semester off and enroll while figuring things out.The worst cases will continue to be the worst cases for certain. The key is that in Michigan there just isn't anything currently to do about it. The resource allocation isn't there. The foster care system is bizarrely under funded, the family court system underfunded, the number of cases per social worker so over the top it is crazy! That means that kids are just simply at higher risk across the board. It has nothing to do with homeschooling per se. It has everything to do with my state, in general, NOT caring about kids but acting like they do. Sigh...and we've dropped to 41st out 50 in the nation educationally. Whoo hoo...Michigan!  :cursing:

 

Also, in terms of reputation, Michigan as a homeschool community has a pretty good one. This is because the homeschooling parents who are serious about what they are doing have a pretty good track record of their kids going to college or passing board exams for professional licenses. On paper, that makes it look great. Self selection. If you ask my kids' college profs, they will tell you they love homeschooling, they think it is wonderful, more people should be doing it! Why? Because the only homeschoolers they know are the ones that had the stats and accomplishments to get into U of MI, WMU, Michigan Tech, to be their paramedics, practical nurses, plumbing repair guy, transmission expert, etc. They aren't meeting the ones that can't write a coherent sentence, or multiple 105 and 97. And again, I have no expectation of that level of skill from kids with LD's, and especially certain types of LD's. In the best of PS systems with the best of special ed programs, they might not be able to achieve that. I am referring here to neurotypical students.

 

GAH! And none of this is easy to flesh out. None of it. And as always, much of it also comes down to religious rights too.

 

Technically in Michigan the only exemption to compulsory attendance laws is religion. Otherwise the parent is supposed to have a teaching license. In that respect, on paper, it is a restrictive statute. But no one checks. I know people who have ZERO religious affiliation who are homeschooling and without license. Illegal? Yes. Is anybody checking? Nope, nope, nope, nope, nope...

 

In terms of that particular issue, I have problems because there should be more than just a religious exemption, and because of the way it is worded, it does make it kind of ripe for religious abuse, "OH my church preaches that my children shouldn't have much schoolin' or girls shouldn't get a high school education or...." and then what do you do if you've written it up as an religious rights law instead of an educational rights law??? Not good.

 

I need chocolate! LOL

[luuknam]

I do know some parents who just report results.  I send the official results.  It feels weird to me to just do it that way, but yeah I guess I could because the regs don't say I need to send the official results.

 

It probably doesn't feel weird to people who purposely neglect/abuse their kids. Then and again, I have no idea what things feel like to people who lock their kids in the basement and stuff like that. 

[Guest]

See, and I find portfolios and work samples the most onerous of the common regs! Especially when my kids are little and we have very low written output it takes me hours to put together all the portfolio documentation and explanations, pictures, etc. I have mostly quit doing it because of that. Jotting down each flipping assignment and the grade scale used is less obnoxious for me.

 

It just varies so much. Blah.

[maize]

I've assumed that's part of the reason why the testing required scores are so low, to account for kids who struggle with testing and have lower IQs? I think kids have to score better than the 15th percentile in OR. Kids are required to test every other year and only twice in elementary school (grades 3 and 5). I don't think that all is too burdensome. I know a couple of times testing has been valuable to me and helped me get back on track in areas I was convinced the kids were doing fine in. They are fine test takers, it was the skills that were lacking. I'm not super opinionated either way though about testing requirements though. I see both sides of the issue.

 

Eta: basically the required percentages to pass our standardized tests prove a child can read and do basic maths.

Above the 15th percentile? But one out of every seven kids should be expected to score below the 15th percentile. Are public schools penalized if they have students scoring below the 15th percentile? Edited December 8, 2016 by maize

[IfIOnly]

Above the 15th percentile? But one out of every seven kids should be expected to score below the 15th percentile. Are public schools penalized if they have students scoring below the 15th percentile?

I'm not sure? I know the education dept. works with you and it seems like a reasonable proccess if that happens. I would hope learning disabilities are taken into consideration. I would think so.

 

 

"If your homeschool student scores above the 15th percentile, you are free to continue home educating. If your child falls below the 15th percentile, the law contains a three-year procedure to attempt to bring the child's scores above the 15th percentile."

[maize]

I'm not sure? I know the education dept. works with you and it seems like a reasonable proccess if that happens. I would hope learning disabilities are taken into consideration. I would think so.

 

 

"If your homeschool student scores above the 15th percentile, you are free to continue home educating. If your child falls below the 15th percentile, the law contains a three-year procedure to attempt to bring the child's scores above the 15th percentile."

3 years to get your kid out of the bottom 1/7th?

 

Again, how are schools penalized for having kids (1 out of every 7!) performing at that level?

[IfIOnly]

3 years to get your kid out of the bottom 1/7th?

 

Again, how are schools penalized for having kids (1 out of every 7!) performing at that level?

More detail about the process. It seems reasonable to me but maybe I'm missing something?:

 

 

 

 

What happens if my child falls below the 15th percentile?

Children scoring on the low end of the achievement test scale are the ones who need the one-on-one attention homeschooling provides. Recognizing this, the legislature and the governor's office placed into this homeschool law a 2 year process for remediation of the situation. If a child scores below the 15th percentile on the test in 3rd, 5th, 8th or 10th grade, he may continue to homeschool, but he must take a standardized achievement test again within one year. This is an opportunity for the parent and child to work together to bring the test score up.

 

If, on this second test, the child scores below his score on the first test, the superintendent of the Educational Service District can require that the homeschool be supervised by a state licensed teacher of the parents' choice and at the parents' expense. There is no set number of hours or number of visits required in the rules. The goal is to provide some help for the family to improve the child's learning and, hence, his test score. The Superintendent may also let the family continue to homeschool without teacher supervision. With either of these choices a student is required to take third test within one year.

 

However, if the student scores the same or better on the second test, he reverts back to testing during the target grades.

 

If on the third test, the student scores below the score of the second test, the Superintendent has three options. He may 1) allow the child to continue under the educational supervision of a licensed teacher and require a test again in one year, 2) allow the child to be taught by a parent or legal guardian and require a test again in one year, or 3) order the parent or guardian to send the child to school for a period not to exceed 12 consecutive months. There is nothing in the statute which requires the school to be a public school.

 

The goal for this “safety net†is twofold: to provide extra assistance for those struggling and to catch those that might be “falling through the cracks.†If your child is truly struggling to be above the 15th percentile, you may consider having him placed under a “privately developed plan†as outlined in “Homeschooling Rules for Children with Disabilities.â€

[Code Lyoko]

I'm not on board for requiring of homeschool parents anything that isn't required of school parents.

 

If I'm not required to take my schooled daughter to the doctor's once a year, there is no way in this world I will comply with being forced to take my homeschooled ds once a year.

 

I take my ds to the doctor when he is sick. End of. 

 

There are costs I am willing to pay to theoretically root out abusive homeschoolers (I see no evidence the theory works, but whatever, I comply) but this isn't one of them. 

I agree with the bolded absolutely.  However, here parents ARE required to have a physical exam of their children by a physician every year before their child can start public school and AFAIK all local private schools require the same.  Frequently it is also required that they have had that yearly wellness exam to start any kind of public sports and many privately supported sports activities, too.  Whether that is truly necessary or not, they are required to do so.

[maize]

More detail about the process. It seems reasonable to me but maybe I'm missing something?:

 

 

 

 

What happens if my child falls below the 15th percentile?

Children scoring on the low end of the achievement test scale are the ones who need the one-on-one attention homeschooling provides. Recognizing this, the legislature and the governor's office placed into this homeschool law a 2 year process for remediation of the situation. If a child scores below the 15th percentile on the test in 3rd, 5th, 8th or 10th grade, he may continue to homeschool, but he must take a standardized achievement test again within one year. This is an opportunity for the parent and child to work together to bring the test score up.

 

If, on this second test, the child scores below his score on the first test, the superintendent of the Educational Service District can require that the homeschool be supervised by a state licensed teacher of the parents' choice and at the parents' expense. There is no set number of hours or number of visits required in the rules. The goal is to provide some help for the family to improve the child's learning and, hence, his test score. The Superintendent may also let the family continue to homeschool without teacher supervision. With either of these choices a student is required to take third test within one year.

 

However, if the student scores the same or better on the second test, he reverts back to testing during the target grades.

 

If on the third test, the student scores below the score of the second test, the Superintendent has three options. He may 1) allow the child to continue under the educational supervision of a licensed teacher and require a test again in one year, 2) allow the child to be taught by a parent or legal guardian and require a test again in one year, or 3) order the parent or guardian to send the child to school for a period not to exceed 12 consecutive months. There is nothing in the statute which requires the school to be a public school.

 

The goal for this “safety net†is twofold: to provide extra assistance for those struggling and to catch those that might be “falling through the cracks.†If your child is truly struggling to be above the 15th percentile, you may consider having him placed under a “privately developed plan†as outlined in “Homeschooling Rules for Children with Disabilities.â€

It is reasonable for a family with a child of average IQ and no significant learning disabilities. Depending on implementation (which sounds like it would depend on the superintendent) it could place undue stress on the family of a child with lower IQ or with learning disabilities OR it could, as it seems meant to do, provide extra support for such a family. It certainly seems like it could put major stress on a child who is struggling to perform on a test--if they can't bring their score up they can't continue to homeschool.

 

It is statistically impossible for every child to be above the 15th percentile, by definition 15 out of 100 should be below.

 

I think the law is well intentioned, but it sets a higher standard for homeschoolers than for public educators.

 

Some of this may be mitigated by the referenced homeschool rules for children with disabilities, perhaps dependent on how a disability is defined. I'm guessing that having an IQ in the bottom 15th percentile doesn't automatically qualify as a disability.

 

ETA based on googling, IQ is considered "low" at around the 2nd percentile. 15th percentile would not be considered a disability.

Edited December 8, 2016 by maize

[Code Lyoko]

I agree 100% that a cooperative, supportive approach is going to yield the best results.

 

Some subsets of homeschoolers are so antagonistic themselves towards anything related to the government that a cooperative approach is not really possible, but those subsets are the most likely to go underground and do their own thing regardless of regulations anyway. They are fortunately a minority in most places.

 

A bigger issue in my experience is antagonism towards homeschoolers on the part of official folks, especially many associated with public school administration. It seems to me that if the welfare of homeschooled children is a priority then support and encouragement from the public education sector is more likely to contribute to that goal than disdain or antagonism.

I agree.

 

And the last would be a serious concern for me, too.  Here, homeschooling is not common, is not seen as a positive choice, and is frequently greeted with at least suspicion, sometimes open hostility.  Even family are still not really on board with my choice to homeschool the kids after some real struggles in brick and mortar.  Heck, even the choice to put a child in private school can be greeted with hostility here.  Local officials would almost certainly not be friendly towards homeschoolers and might very well be looking for any excuse to force children into the public school system, whether it would be a good fit or not.

[mom2scouts]

I looked it up.  A physical is required for students entering grades: 2, 4, 7, and 10.  Add one in for K.  Nowhere near every year.

 

Is this a state regulation? We don't have any requirements for public school students to get a physical ever.

[maize]

Oh wow.

 

They are not required to do that here.

It is not required for school here. It is required for some but not all sports and summer camps.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Is this a state regulation? We don't have any requirements for public school students to get a physical ever.

 

I assume so, but I found the information on the school's website. 

[ktgrok]

See, and I find portfolios and work samples the most onerous of the common regs! Especially when my kids are little and we have very low written output it takes me hours to put together all the portfolio documentation and explanations, pictures, etc. I have mostly quit doing it because of that. Jotting down each flipping assignment and the grade scale used is less obnoxious for me.

 

It just varies so much. Blah.

 

The standards for a portfolio are pretty low here. A few items from the beginning, middle, and end of the year. That's it. I've shown up with random work stuffed in a plastic grocery bag. 

 

This year, for my 6 yr old, I started a Facebook album specifically to keep photos for her portfolio, as do many others. I can have a service print out all those photos into a book, and I'm done :)

[luuknam]

Above the 15th percentile? But one out of every seven kids should be expected to score below the 15th percentile.

 

It sounds like her state is fairly reasonable though - if I'm reading the regs correctly, if the kid scores at the 6th percentile, say, and the next year the kid scores at the 6th percentile again, they're all good. Or if the kid scores at the 6th, then the 5th, and then the 5th again, also all good. Or if the kid scores at the 6th, the 5th, and then the 4th percentile, and the kid has a disability, they might be all good (or even without a disability, if the superintendent is nice).

 

Whereas in Lake Wobegon NY, your kid has to score above the 33rd percentile, or make a full year's progress. Kids at e.g. the 6th percentile typically don't make a full grade level of progress in a calendar year (which is why they're at the 6th percentile to begin with), so they're unlikely to meet that standard. And 33rd percentile is ridiculously high. And the first time you don't get >33rd percentile, you get put on probation, and the 2nd time your kid isn't above the 33rd percentile and doesn't have a full year's progress, you're done. There are some things about disabilities, but obviously nowhere near 1/3 of kids have a disability.

[Bluegoat]

And, how do we know our method of doing so, is, in fact, 'good' - the least amount of penalising the law abiding for the most amount of catching abuse and neglect ?

 

THat's the million dollar question.  I suspect that it would be difficult, even if people tracked some sort of data, to really compare what would work in other places, there are just too many variables. 

[ktgrok]

 

 

Whereas in Lake Wobegon NY, your kid has to score above the 33rd percentile, or make a full year's progress. Kids at e.g. the 6th percentile typically don't make a full grade level of progress in a calendar year (which is why they're at the 6th percentile to begin with), so they're unlikely to meet that standard. And 33rd percentile is ridiculously high. And the first time you don't get >33rd percentile, you get put on probation, and the 2nd time your kid isn't above the 33rd percentile and doesn't have a full year's progress, you're done. There are some things about disabilities, but obviously nowhere near 1/3 of kids have a disability.

 

that's why I like how it is worded here in Florida - the child must "make progress commensurate with their ability". As long as the teacher you picked to do your portfolio is okay signing off on that that's all the county sees. 

[Guest]

And that kind of the point I was making above. Even when trying to write some sort of standard we don't all agree on which one to use. Who prevails? Is it the one who wants tests and portfolios? The one who wants contact teachers and attendance logs? The one providing work samples? The one just wanting notification letters of intent? Health checks? Home inspections?

 

Who prevails and why? Which standard is standard enough to supposedly prevent some threshold of criminal behavior?

 

I know you and I agree on this Sadie, I'm just using your post as a jumping off point :)

Yes, therein lies the problem. Whose standard is reasonable, whose is unduly burdensome and where does that line lie?

 

I have been satisfied with the law as it is in Maryland, but OTOH, I see how people skirt the law as well. I know people who seem to be doing a sub-standard job from what I have observed, but I know how they escape; they escape through the loophole of the umbrella group. Some of the umbrellas in this state have peer reviews as the standard, so Flaky Homeschooler Jane simply pairs up with her understanding Flaky Homeschooler friend, Sue and they mutually pat each other on the back and agree to call baking Christmas cookies math for the quarter because the kids had to measure flour in 1/4 cups.