Helicopter parenting vs. Tiger Mom vs. .... Suzuki Mom???

[...................]

 

 

the book is not about safety. it's about being a healthy human which includes a healthy family, of course

 

i don't even think she really mentions safety a lot.

[Woodland Mist Academy]

What is a safe pod? I'm not familiar with the phrase in connection with parenting. It conjures up images of a small enclosed safe space. Many would say that's helicopter parenting. Where's the line between acceptable parenting and helicopter mothering?

Edited November 29, 2016 by Woodland Mist Academy

[Ausmumof3]

I think that one big factor in what is the most appropriate way of parenting a particular child is going to be that child's natural executive function ability. A child with very good executive function can, even at a young age, direct their own behavior to meet both personal goals and outside expectations. The parent of such a child needs do little more than provide opportunities and minimal support.

 

A child with extremely poor executive function (such as one with ADHD) will flounder without significant scaffolding and support. Leaving them to their own devices is not going to cause their executive function abilities to increase.

 

Most children will fall somewhere in between these two extremes.

 

There are of course additional factors that will contribute to how much and what types of support a child needs. A child who struggles with anxiety will need different types of support than an impulsively fearless child. I think the best a parent can do is to view their child as an individual and attempt to meet that specific child's needs for both freedom and support. In other words, there is not ideal formula and we're all going to have to muddle along as best we can. And we can neither take true credit for our children's successes nor blame for their failures.

This is soooo true. We often look at an overprotective parent with an anxious child and think the parent is the problem but it is often more likely that the parent is responding to the child and the fallout from not being protective! I think best model parenting provides explicit teaching to help kids learn stuff when it doesn't come naturally rather than a parent stepping in but it's hard. It's hard for me provide good scaffolding for executive function skills because my own are awful!

[Ausmumof3]

I don't think these parenting styles are a totally new thing or modern philosophy. In Dickens "Dombey and Son" the father is desperately trying to create a miniature version of the family business. He sends the boy to a school where they are forced to learn and learn and learn to the point that the boys end up sick or hating learning or whatever. Girls were sent to convent schools and extremely protected. I think there have always been variations of parenting style and expectations. In Pride and Prejudice Lady Catherine is very unimpressed with the lack of a governess at the Bennets house and her own daughter is sickly and highly accomplished. Maybe what has changed is that this parenting style is more available to everyone. More people have the money to keep their kids in activities and adult care full time/

[fralala]

His thread sent me watching a documentary on school children in Korea. These kids are studying until 11 PM at night, the official time tutoring services close. Western parents also value education, but not at the expense of our childrens' happiness. I say this without blinking because according to the documentary, half the kids in South Korea have thought about suicide. That is appalling. I don't know what the numbers are here, but I doubt it's anywhere near 50%.

I think a massive backlash against tiger parenting has to do with realization that the only way to stay competitive is to work just as hard as those kids especially in communities dominated by Asian immigrants and that is simply a cultural shift western moms aren't willing to make.

 

The unfair part, I think, is blaming any of this on "tiger moms," who seem to me to be a result (not in Amy Chua's case, but certainly in places like Korea) of a broken system rather than the instigators of a system. Likewise, the immigrants from Asia in my community, particularly Korea, have told me individually that they wanted to raise their children in a system where they wouldn't face the intense competitive academic pressures that their parent or parents did in Korea, but collectively the anxiety they feel about their kids' futures makes them unsure if they should be enrolling them in weekend and afterschool classes. It is the same feeling I have when I'm wondering whether we are doing enough.

 

There are bad parents everywhere, certainly (and there will always be critical grandparents, to go way back to the OP), but most of us are just looking for ways to help ensure that our children will have food on the table and a roof over their heads and a certain measure of security when we are no longer to around to provide those things. I think it's most productive if we moms bond together to say we want a world and a society in which we don't have to fear for our kids' futures, rather than competing and labeling each other. (I know, I know, I have utopian visions...)

[luuknam]

His thread sent me watching a documentary on school children in Korea. These kids are studying until 11 PM at night, the official time tutoring services close. Western parents also value education, but not at the expense of our childrens' happiness. I say this without blinking because according to the documentary, half the kids in South Korea have thought about suicide. That is appalling. I don't know what the numbers are here, but I doubt it's anywhere near 50%.

 

First result I found with percentages:

 

http://www.childtrends.org/indicators/suicidal-teens/

 

17%, which is up from 14% in 2009 but down from 29% in 1991. Those are the percentages for "seriously considered suicide" - it's hard to compare studies like this, especially between countries, because I have no idea how seriously the 50% in Korea considered it (nor do I know how reliable either source is to begin with). I've heard numbers in the something-teen range before, I hadn't heard before that it was so much higher in the early '90s. Regardless, it is my understanding that it is a bigger problem in Korea, but it's not a small problem in the US.

 

FWIW, I tried to find stats for NL, but only found stats for Belgium, where allegedly 15% of primary school students have had suicidal thoughts and 30-40% of secondary school students. 

 

https://www.klasse.be/archief/zelfmoord/

 

Afaik, Belgium is not very tiger-y or helicopter-y, but maybe Loesje can chime in if she happens to read this thread. I really think that the questions in these studies may vary a lot wrt how seriously the people saying "yes" had thought about suicide - "it's crossed my mind" is way different from "I think about this a lot".

[maize]

What is a safe pod? I'm not familiar with the phrase in connection with parenting. It conjures up images of a small enclosed safe space. Many would say that's helicopter parenting. Where's the line between acceptable parenting and helicopter mothering?

A group of dolphins is called a pod, I assume the meaning of a safe pod in the book is a healthy home and family and community where children feel secure.

Edited November 29, 2016 by maize

[Woodland Mist Academy]

A group of dolphins is called a pod, I assume the meaning if a safe pod in the book is a healthy home and family and community where children feel secure.

 

Ahh! That makes much more sense than what I was imagining!   :laugh:

 

Thanks!

 

SAFE-T-POD video on you tube

 

Safe Pod at University of Saint Andrews

 

Edited November 29, 2016 by Woodland Mist Academy

[Pen]

I don't think these parenting styles are a totally new thing or modern philosophy. In Dickens "Dombey and Son" the father is desperately trying to create a miniature version of the family business. He sends the boy to a school where they are forced to learn and learn and learn to the point that the boys end up sick or hating learning or whatever. Girls were sent to convent schools and extremely protected. I think there have always been variations of parenting style and expectations. In Pride and Prejudice Lady Catherine is very unimpressed with the lack of a governess at the Bennets house and her own daughter is sickly and highly accomplished. Maybe what has changed is that this parenting style is more available to everyone. More people have the money to keep their kids in activities and adult care full time/

 

 

Or Hard Times maybe even a better example.

 

The unfair part, I think, is blaming any of this on "tiger moms," who seem to me to be a result (not in Amy Chua's case, but certainly in places like Korea) of a broken system rather than the instigators of a system. Likewise, the immigrants from Asia in my community, particularly Korea, have told me individually that they wanted to raise their children in a system where they wouldn't face the intense competitive academic pressures that their parent or parents did in Korea, but collectively the anxiety they feel about their kids' futures makes them unsure if they should be enrolling them in weekend and afterschool classes. It is the same feeling I have when I'm wondering whether we are doing enough.

 

There are bad parents everywhere, certainly (and there will always be critical grandparents, to go way back to the OP), but most of us are just looking for ways to help ensure that our children will have food on the table and a roof over their heads and a certain measure of security when we are no longer to around to provide those things. I think it's most productive if we moms bond together to say we want a world and a society in which we don't have to fear for our kids' futures, rather than competing and labeling each other. (I know, I know, I have utopian visions...)

 

 

Sure, but then too, it can become a cycle.  Not only within a country but can spread country to countries beyond...   not just "gotta work hard to keep up with the Joneses (or Kims) next door" but gotta work hard to keep up with China, Korea, Singapore...  And that may result in "progress" but it starts to look questionable whether the "progress" is positive or whether just as the pressure can lead to suicidal feelings, maybe it is also so harmful to nature and ecosystems as to be suicidal for mammals.  (was going to say the species, but actually seems like other life forms may be suffering more and earlier.)

[...................]

Thank you Maize.  I didn't even know what Woodland was thinking, I couldn't figure out what she was asking.  LOL sorry Woodland.  Yeah, you know a pod as in a dolphin pod 

 

"Dolphins are highly social animals, often living in pods of up to a dozen individuals, though pod sizes and structures vary greatly between species and locations. In places with a high abundance of food, pods can merge temporarily, forming a superpod; such groupings may exceed 1,000 dolphins."

 

But again, I don't want to misrepresent the book- she doesn't really talk a lot about safety.  More about healthy habits, relationships and thought processes

[Woodland Mist Academy]

At least you didn't refer to a group of crows.  ;)  

 

I guess it goes to show that words can easily be interpreted in different ways. Context matters.  ;)

[Roadrunner]

First result I found with percentages:

 

http://www.childtrends.org/indicators/suicidal-teens/

 

17%, which is up from 14% in 2009 but down from 29% in 1991. Those are the percentages for "seriously considered suicide" - it's hard to compare studies like this, especially between countries, because I have no idea how seriously the 50% in Korea considered it (nor do I know how reliable either source is to begin with). I've heard numbers in the something-teen range before, I hadn't heard before that it was so much higher in the early '90s. Regardless, it is my understanding that it is a bigger problem in Korea, but it's not a small problem in the US.

 

FWIW, I tried to find stats for NL, but only found stats for Belgium, where allegedly 15% of primary school students have had suicidal thoughts and 30-40% of secondary school students.

 

https://www.klasse.be/archief/zelfmoord/

 

Afaik, Belgium is not very tiger-y or helicopter-y, but maybe Loesje can chime in if she happens to read this thread. I really think that the questions in these studies may vary a lot wrt how seriously the people saying "yes" had thought about suicide - "it's crossed my mind" is way different from "I think about this a lot".

Wow. I didn't think it would be in double digits. I am still processing those numbers. I clearly look at this world through the rose colored glasses.

[Roadrunner]

The unfair part, I think, is blaming any of this on "tiger moms," who seem to me to be a result (not in Amy Chua's case, but certainly in places like Korea) of a broken system rather than the instigators of a system. Likewise, the immigrants from Asia in my community, particularly Korea, have told me individually that they wanted to raise their children in a system where they wouldn't face the intense competitive academic pressures that their parent or parents did in Korea, but collectively the anxiety they feel about their kids' futures makes them unsure if they should be enrolling them in weekend and afterschool classes. It is the same feeling I have when I'm wondering whether we are doing enough.

 

There are bad parents everywhere, certainly (and there will always be critical grandparents, to go way back to the OP), but most of us are just looking for ways to help ensure that our children will have food on the table and a roof over their heads and a certain measure of security when we are no longer to around to provide those things. I think it's most productive if we moms bond together to say we want a world and a society in which we don't have to fear for our kids' futures, rather than competing and labeling each other. (I know, I know, I have utopian visions...)

I think all of this is very cultural. systems aren't perfect anywhere. The way society responds is cultural. I bet given the same system Canadian response would have been different. It isn't about "blaming" anybody. Blame for what? Wanting their children to succeed?

 

And yes, I know "culture" is a dummy variable, because it is hard to define and therefore not useful.

Edited November 29, 2016 by Roadrunner

[Arcadia]

I bet given the same system Canadian response would have been different.

I have Canadian friends from Toronto who relocated to US and Asia for jobs. The ones in US East Coast can drive home more often, those in Asia fly home annually. They want to go home but jobs are lacking. So their mindset now is different from when they were in college. Their expectations/worries for their kids are also different from their parents expectations/worries for them as kids.

[SKL]

I also think that it's more of a focus shift than anything else.

 

In my parents' generation, there wasn't so much fuss at home about school work, but it was pretty normal for children to be physically punished every time they didn't get their chores done as instructed.  Girls were expected to develop household skills pretty young (my grandma was required to handmake lace at age 5), and girls also were very restricted in their movements after a certain age.  When I was a kid, I remember a feeling of stress when my mom came home from work, because she would start asking about the status of my chores.  My parents didn't fuss about my school work (possibly because I was a pretty good student and the school would beat me if I got lazy).  My folks encouraged intellectual pursuits more by their example than by forcing anything.  But that doesn't mean we had a carefree life.

 

Fast forward 40 years and instead of nagging and punishing over chores, I check my kids' homework and make them do it over if it isn't right.  My [childless] sister was chiding me about this the other day.  "At what point do you stop and let your kids be responsible for their own mistakes?  I know someone who monitored their kids' homework all through school, and the kids ended up dropping out of college."  (Note that my kids are 9 and 10, and the 10yo has known learning challenges.)  Other times, my sister criticizes me for expecting "too much" of my kids or letting them take too much risk.  (WHAT EVER, childless person.  I should hang out with folks who have multiple older kids i.e. a relevant perspective.)

 

I think kids have always had a mix of responsibility, stress, and freedom, and for the most part they grow up and do fine.

 

[FTR my kids are planning to live in my house indefinitely, and I'm planning to let them.  BITE ME.  :P  As long as they aren't robbing people to get their dinner, who cares?  I do expect them to help me in my declining years.)

[Arcadia]

What is a safe pod? I'm not familiar with the phrase in connection with parenting. It conjures up images of a small enclosed safe space. Many would say that's helicopter parenting. Where's the line between acceptable parenting and helicopter mothering?

From the author. She mentioned Jellyfish parenting too in her book.

"The ideas can be remembered through the acronym POD (a pod is a group of dolphins): P = Play and exploration; O = Others, including a sense of community and contribution; and D = Downtime, including the basics of regular sleep, exercise and rest."

http://www.parenting.com/parenting-advice/tips-tricks/whats-dolphin-parent-psychiatrist-decodes-parenting-styles

[luuknam]

I respectfully disagree.  Sure, life is easier here than in Syria.  And it's easier now than in the middle ages.  But life isn't easier now than it was in the 1950s, when you could coast through high school, have fun, and get a high-paying factory job that could pay for a house, boat, college education for your kids, plus a pension.  Even now a college education guarantees nothing except a job as a barista.  

 

Btw, to get back at the 1950s - they didn't know that they could. Both my parents were born in the mid-1950s, but the people who raised them weren't. My grandmother on one side was born in 1914. Her father worked on a fishing boat that hit a sea mine in 1918. They were quite poor and she had to drop out of school at a young age and get a job sewing (she wanted to become a hairdresser, but never had the opportunity). She had her first kid in 1940, shortly after the war broke out. Then had two miscarriages during the war. On the other side, my grandfather was born in 1925, grew up during the Great Depression, still cleared his plates so thoroughly it looked like they hadn't been used when he was 80yo. He hid from the Germans during the last few months of WWII to avoid being drafted. All of my grandparents experienced the hunger winter of '44-'45. So, yeah, the 1950s turned out to be pretty great, economically speaking, but having been born during/shortly after WWI, living through the Great Depression and WWII, I don't think parents in the 1950s had any reasonable expectation to think things would turn out a-okay for their kids. And that's without even touching on things like the Cold War with the threat of nuclear war and all that.

[SKL]

Yeah, my parents were youths in the 1950s and no, it wasn't all sunshine and rainbows.  My dad's mom, an immigrant from Eastern Europe with 4 kids, was the breadwinner.  My dad was severely dyslexic, the most truant kid in his large city (according to the judge), and dropped out of school at 15 in favor of pursuing his radio repair business (his brother had dropped out at 17 to join the military).  My mom, whose folks were divorced and poor, was abused in all imaginable ways, and dropped out of school on her 16th birthday to help raise her siblings while her mom worked.  These stories were not uncommon, though they weren't quite radio/TV material in those days.  So no, I'm guessing 1950s families had no idea what stress was.  Everything was easy.  The future looked incredibly bright.

[Woodland Mist Academy]

Yeah, my parents were youths in the 1950s and no, it wasn't all sunshine and rainbows. 

 

No, but neither is today. 

 

To say modern life is never hard and scary isn't entirely accurate.

[Woodland Mist Academy]

I also think that it's more of a focus shift than anything else.

 

In my parents' generation, there wasn't so much fuss at home about school work, but it was pretty normal for children to be physically punished every time they didn't get their chores done as instructed.  

 

True. In some generations there was a mix of relative freedom coupled with harsh physical punishment when that freedom resulted in trouble of one sort or another. 

 

I'm not sure there's ever been an era of perfect parenting.

[luuknam]

To say modern life is never hard and scary isn't entirely accurate.

 

Did anybody say modern life is never hard and scary? I certainly didn't. I've said it's less hard and scary than *some* time periods in history, not that it's all rainbows and sunshine. I still don't think "modern life is hard and scary and therefore people helicopter and tiger" is a great explanation of helicoptering and tigering.

[fralala]

True. In some generations there was a mix of relative freedom coupled with harsh physical punishment when that freedom resulted in trouble of one sort or another. 

 

I'm not sure there's ever been an era of perfect parenting.

 

Indeed! I have a worn copy of my college text "The Anthropology of Childhood" (author Lancy if anyone is interested) that I highly recommend for anyone interested in cultural and historical differences in child-rearing. Spoiler alert: helicopter and tiger moms begin to appear relatively benign...

[shawthorne44]

Did anybody say modern life is never hard and scary? I certainly didn't. I've said it's less hard and scary than *some* time periods in history, not that it's all rainbows and sunshine. I still don't think "modern life is hard and scary and therefore people helicopter and tiger" is a great explanation of helicoptering and tigering.

 

And both violent crime and crimes against children are waaayyyy down compared to when any of us were children.  So, there isn't any logical reason for our kids to not have the same freedoms we had.  

[Woodland Mist Academy]

Crime is a complicated phenomenon and can be difficult to measure for various reasons. It's also tricky to compare crime rates of different eras. Myriad factors are at play. 

 

There's also an interplay between our behavior and crime statistics. Could it be that lessening freedoms also lessens crimes against children? Some in our generation keep a closer eye on their children because of the horror they experienced or witnessed in their own childhoods. Thus, their children might not be the victims that they might have been otherwise. As mentioned earlier, the pendulums swings...

 

Not all parents wish their children to have the childhoods they did. On the contrary, some would do anything within their power to keep that from happening. If that means less freedom -- so be it.

 

Parenting, crime, societal norms... Not one of these lives in isolation. All are complicated and entangled with other complicated, dynamic systems.

[maize]

Also, parents have varying personalities. Cultural expectations do play in but I have known some laid-back Japanese parents.

Edited December 1, 2016 by maize

[Pen]

Did anybody say modern life is never hard and scary? I certainly didn't. I've said it's less hard and scary than *some* time periods in history, not that it's all rainbows and sunshine. I still don't think "modern life is hard and scary and therefore people helicopter and tiger" is a great explanation of helicoptering and tigering.

 

 

Why do you think people helicopter and tiger?

[shawthorne44]

I think people helicopter out of fear and to make themselves feel better,.  

I think Tiger parenting is about social status from a child's accomplishments, and often social expectations in certain cultures.  

In both cases I think it is about the parent and not about what is best for the child.  

[shawthorne44]

Have y'll heard the term Blackhawk parents?   It is what you get when a busy-body is also a helicopter parent.   They helicopter over over people's kids and go into attack mode when the parents aren't sufficiently helicoptering in their view.  

 

[SarahW]

I've been busy with IRL stuff, but briefly....

 

 

To the PP who asked if I had read Chua - I picked up a copy of her book. Newspaper articles and reviews don't really do it justice. She has a rather sarcastic sense of humor, and so do I, so I thought even the "horrifying" parts were pretty funny. But I also know that people don't usually "get" my jokes, especially strangers when they are written down, so I understand how people could misinterpret her narrative.

 

I thought the part where she was training the dogs was hilarious. I also know people who took dog training very seriously, right down to the same Monks of New Skete book.

 

She's tough sometimes, true. The way she puts her philosophy into practice is sometimes doubtful. But the underlying philosophy gives me a lot to think about. Do you say "good job!" to something that your kid dashed together in five minutes? Or do you teach them that celebrating your own mother's birthday is a matter of importance? And if you don't teach them, who ever will? Tough questions.

 

There was a relatively recent news article with the sisters, and they said that their mother wasn't actually that bad, that she's fully let go now that they're in college. But they know other kids with tiger parents who still live in fear and dread of  their parents. So Amy's probably a pretty moderate example of the phenomenon.

 

When you're an expat you don't have the luxury if falling into "well, every other mom would be upset about X happening to her kid" mentality. So it tends to make people reevaluate their previously-unquestioned parenting mentality.

 

One thing I have noticed about a lot of Boomer parents is a general trust in scientism and "the experts." For example, my DH is likely 2e (ADHD plus high abstract thinking) but when he was in elementary was only identified as being "slow to learn" and sent to the special school for stupid kids (not the actual name for the school, but what all the students understood the name to be). My MIL just went along with it. When the school system finally found out that DH was not stupid at all, it was way too late to remediate all the wasted years of his education and make up for all his anxiety in his attitude towards learning. The consequences for this has been very severe. DH and I are determined to NOT let the same happen to our kids. Our oldest is the spitting image of DH and we are fighting tooth and nail for meeting his needs, and this also confuses MIL. She cares, definitely, but she doesn't understand our level of involvement or why we go out of our way to provide enrichment.

 

The same can be said for me. Though I was homeschooled, my mother took a very non-involved approach. If we managed to become good at something it was rather accidental. She didn't look for opportunities that matched our talents or interests. And her ambitions were very small - we got piano lessons only because she wanted us to play accompanist for the hymns at our small church. And other than paying for lessons she was not involved. I mean, sure, it wasn't pushy, but at the same time it seemed rather uncaring and disattached. If she had told me that learning to play Beethoven would make me understand sublimity and opaque musicality I wouldn't have understood, but at least I would've appreciated that the purpose of my struggle at the piano was for me, not for her bragging rights.

 

My dad, though, now that I think about it, was a bit of a Tiger parent. I remember when I got my DE grades and he yelled at me for getting a few A-'s. That did make me a bit mad, because he otherwise acted completely disinterested in what we were doing in school. If you're not going to make detailed measure-by-measure practice instructions, you don't get to complain about the results. Nope.

[shawthorne44]

... DH and I are determined to NOT let the same happen to our kids. Our oldest is the spitting image of DH and we are fighting tooth and nail for meeting his needs, and this also confuses MIL. She cares, definitely, but she doesn't understand our level of involvement or why we go out of our way to provide enrichment.....

 

There also may be a bit of guilt going on with your MIL, so I'd be gentle with her.  I saw that with my MIL, although about a medical treatment.  DD has the same medical condition that we are pretty certain DH had, and also MIL and her family of origin.   When we were going through the tests and started treatment for DD, MIL was extremely resistant.   Every single time we saw her she brought it up and fussed at us about it.  When I realized it was guilt talking, I casually mentioned that it was too bad DH couldn't have had the same treatment, but it wasn't discovered until he was too old.   Poof!    All the fussing stopped.   

[MinivanMom]

Have y'll heard the term Blackhawk parents?   It is what you get when a busy-body is also a helicopter parent.   They helicopter over over people's kids and go into attack mode when the parents aren't sufficiently helicoptering in their view.  

 

I keep meeting these women at the park! Yes, my 4-yr-old can climb up the playground equipment without me hovering over him. The steps are only 2 inches high and the whole playground is built on some sort of soft, rubber pad. So back off, lady!

 

I was also tisked recently by a younger homeschooling mom when I openly admitted that I don't pre-read all my kids' books. And last month, the father of another teen chided me for not helping my daughter put away her instrument after rehearsal was over. Do whatever you want with your own kid, but my teen is perfectly capable of handling her own instrument without my help.