1cat2ferrets Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 Last night on NBC news my husband heard that they (NBC) did some checking into the Joe the Plumber thing and found out that he isn't a real plumber!! How's that, folks. Some are speculating that he was a "plant" from the Mccain camp, too. The guy (Joe) is just a plain and simple liar trying to get his 15 minutes of fame. What a jerk! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pammy Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 a master plumber, who does have a plumbing license. The question he posed to Obama was that he was hopeful someday to take over the business, with more training. He didn't ever say he was a licensed plumber now. Let's stick to the facts, ma'am.:001_huh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hen Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 I haven't read the stories yet, but I heard enough on the radio to know that the news people are busy checking into how much money he makes and what he owes in taxes. I guess if you go up to a Presidential candidate and ask a question with substance about his basic philosophy of government, then you better have your house in order. I think Obama's answer was the important part. Not if the plumber makes enough to buy a company or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudoMom Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 Here's a link to the story for anyone who is interested. It seems to me the news is trying to find holes in Joe's story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovemyboys Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 (NBC) did some checking into the Joe the Plumber It would be nice to see these fact-checkers doing some equal-time digging into the issues. :tongue_smilie: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mama Lynx Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 Last night on NBC news my husband heard that they (NBC) did some checking into the Joe the Plumber thing and found out that he isn't a real plumber!! How's that, folks. Some are speculating that he was a "plant" from the Mccain camp, too. The guy (Joe) is just a plain and simple liar trying to get his 15 minutes of fame. What a jerk! He asked Obama a question, and Obama answered. Can you explain to me why it matters if Joe doesn't have a plumbing license? Or any of the other stuff the media is digging up? What does it matter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crissy Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 Last night on NBC news my husband heard that they (NBC) did some checking into the Joe the Plumber thing and found out that he isn't a real plumber!! How's that, folks. Some are speculating that he was a "plant" from the Mccain camp, too. The guy (Joe) is just a plain and simple liar trying to get his 15 minutes of fame. What a jerk! I don't recall that he referred to himself as a licensed plumber. That's his American Dream, and his question to Senator Obama was about the realities of achieving that dream. He's neither a liar nor a jerk as far as I can tell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daisy Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 It wouldn't matter to me if Joe the Plumber was a completely fictional character. Actually until this morning, I thought he was. I don't watch tv and couldn't figure out all these references to the guy. I thought he just symbolized the typical hardworking American. The issue was and still is Obama's response. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michelle in MO Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 a master plumber, who does have a plumbing license. The question he posed to Obama was that he was hopeful someday to take over the business, with more training. He didn't ever say he was a licensed plumber now. Let's stick to the facts, ma'am.:001_huh: He's not a plant from the McCain; he's apparently a real plumber, a sub-contractor, who has hopes to buy a business someday. Yes, he needs to take care of his back taxes, but that doesn't preclude his right to question Senator Obama about his tax plan. I don't think he had any idea, when he questioned Obama, what a can of worms he was opening up. I hope the press stops hounding him. If I were questioning a presidential candidate, I wouldn't necessarily presume that suddenly I would become the focal point of controversy. The main point is, of course, Senator Obama's answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soph the vet Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 I don't recall that he referred to himself as a licensed plumber. That's his American Dream, and his question to Senator Obama was about the realities of achieving that dream. He's neither a liar nor a jerk as far as I can tell. :iagree:And now the Obama camp is trying to dig up dirt on the guy. Pretty brazen of them, IMO. They are vetting this poor plumber more than Obama has been vetted himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1cat2ferrets Posted October 17, 2008 Author Share Posted October 17, 2008 last night. I didn't hear or see any thing about this. I apologize for being so harse, I"m just sick and tired of all this political stuff and can't wait for it to be over! Again, I apologize. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hen Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 Joanne, I don't think you need to apologize for anything...just some friendly talk back and forth going on! :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NevadaRabbit Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 (edited) :leaving: Edited October 17, 2008 by NevadaRabbit the zipper on my lip apparently broke. sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudoMom Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 last night. I didn't hear or see any thing about this. I apologize for being so harse, I"m just sick and tired of all this political stuff and can't wait for it to be over! Again, I apologize. I love politics, but I can't wait for it to be over, either! :grouphug: :001_smile: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beansprouts Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 :leaving: I saw what you said Dearie!! :D Guess I was just too slow on that "quote" button. :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mama Lynx Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 We're all sick of it, too. However, I hope you can understand my point, and the point of many who have posted so far. It DOES NOT MATTER if Joe is a plumber, or owes taxes, or even if he turns out to be McCain's long-lost love child. None of that matters. What matters is Obama's answer. Whoever Joe is or is not, it does not change Obama's answer. And I have a huge problem with Obama's answer. I also have a huge problem with the sound bite I heard today, in which Obama said, in a laughing voice, "A *plumber* is who McCain is fighting for!" and then his audience laughed. Since it was a sound bite, I'd like to give Sn. Obama the benefit of the doubt, and to believe that there is more to the speech that doesn't make that bit sound as unbelievably ridiculous as it does. I'll have to see if there is more to the speech on You Tube. Because ... surely he didn't mean that, right? Surely? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daisy Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 Same here. I don't much of anything is going to change between now and November. I can't wait to have Election Day over with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saille Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 (edited) Here's what I've seen so far: http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103&sid=aysiUbzAUIZs&refer=us I'm going to retract the Keating comment...the relevant Robert appears to live in CA. And no, I don't agree with guilt by association...but I do believe in determining whether someone has a bias which belies his claims of being an average Joe off the street. Edited October 17, 2008 by Saille Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NevadaRabbit Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 I saw what you said Dearie!! :D Guess I was just too slow on that "quote" button. :lol: GAHHH!!! Don't tell. Please don't tell. It's not nice to call people names and I shouldn'ta said it. I sowwy. (To the OP - my name calling post, now edited away into the oblivion of cyberspace, did not call you or any other poster here a name. The namecalling was on ... someone else.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudoMom Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 GAHHH!!! Don't tell. Please don't tell. It's not nice to call people names and I shouldn'ta said it. I sowwy. (To the OP - my name calling post, now edited away into the oblivion of cyberspace, did not call you or any other poster here a name. The namecalling was on ... someone else.) I saw it too-oo, I saw it too-oo (that's a sing-song voice) :lol:. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beansprouts Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 But we won't tell, will we JudoMom? We will just chuckle softly the next time someone asks "You want fries with that??" :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saille Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 :iagree:And now the Obama camp is trying to dig up dirt on the guy. Pretty brazen of them, IMO. They are vetting this poor plumber more than Obama has been vetted himself. I've got to disagree on this one. Obama has been vetted within an inch of his life, IMO. And I think, if McCain is going to make this guy a symbol of all that's wrong with Obama, then he'd better know who he's talking about. I feel much the same way about this that I do about the Palin nomination: he didn't do due diligence, and it makes me doubt his judgement, and the judgement of his advisors. He made an illogical, poorly researched emotional appeal his cornerstone in the third debate. The fact that he held a man up as an example who seems to have some ethical and logical issues, the fact that McCain's supporters (and veep) keep painting Obama as a radical when Joe, an American "good guy", has some pretty radical views, the fact that Wurzelbacher may in fact have ties which call into question his motivation for being in that Obama rally in the first place, are all pretty relevant issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenny in Atl Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 We're all sick of it, too. However, I hope you can understand my point, and the point of many who have posted so far. It DOES NOT MATTER if Joe is a plumber, or owes taxes, or even if he turns out to be McCain's long-lost love child. None of that matters. What matters is Obama's answer. Whoever Joe is or is not, it does not change Obama's answer. And I have a huge problem with Obama's answer. I also have a huge problem with the sound bite I heard today, in which Obama said, in a laughing voice, "A *plumber* is who McCain is fighting for!" and then his audience laughed. Since it was a sound bite, I'd like to give Sn. Obama the benefit of the doubt, and to believe that there is more to the speech that doesn't make that bit sound as unbelievably ridiculous as it does. I'll have to see if there is more to the speech on You Tube. Because ... surely he didn't mean that, right? Surely? We all ready do this and have done so since before WWII. Medicare, medicaid, highways, libraries, schools, etc. Everyone is against their money being used for others, until they find out the "entitlements" they like will go poof too, if this "sharing/spreading" around completely stopped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saille Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 I also have a huge problem with the sound bite I heard today, in which Obama said, in a laughing voice, "A *plumber* is who McCain is fighting for!" and then his audience laughed. Since it was a sound bite, I'd like to give Sn. Obama the benefit of the doubt, and to believe that there is more to the speech that doesn't make that bit sound as unbelievably ridiculous as it does. I'll have to see if there is more to the speech on You Tube. Because ... surely he didn't mean that, right? Surely? Well, it sure would be weird if he did a complete 180 on everything else he's ever said about working folks right before a crucial election... I'll listen as well, but I'm pretty skeptical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NevadaRabbit Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 But we won't tell, will we JudoMom? We will just chuckle softly the next time someone asks "You want fries with that??" :lol: STOP it, you two. I'm dyin' over here. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jejily Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 ... There is also some potential that Joe Wurzelbacher (whose name, incidentally, is misspelled on state voter rolls) is a relative of Robert Wurzelbacher, who is the son-in-law of Charles Keating. Six degress of separation, huh? McCain MUST have put him up to this, then! :glare: Honestly, this would be ridiculous if it weren't a little disturbing. People are upset by Obama's response to a question... so let's attack and discredit the questioner. Does this bother anyone else, or is it just me? Seriously, let's get real. This guy acted on his own accord -- he was not a "plant." He had no idea how Barack Obama would answer his question; he had no idea it would turn into this major media event. He certainly didn't "trick" Obama into giving the response he did, and shouldn't Obama's response be the focus of discussion, not the guy who asked the question?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mama Lynx Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 We all ready do this and have done so since before WWII. Medicare, medicaid, highways, libraries, schools, etc. Everyone is against their money being used for others, until they find out the "entitlements" they like will go poof too, if this "sharing/spreading" around completely stopped. Everyone? When I have disposable income, I donate to libraries and other organizations. If I had my taxes back, I'd happily help to support the institutions I think are worth supporting. However, taxing the rich at a higher rate, and deliberately redistributing the wealth, is not necessary to fund those programs you mentioned. Sen. Obama was talking about wealth redistribution, as in taking MORE money from the wealthy and "spreading it around." I'm not for it, and I don't believe that we need it to make this country work. We can keep discussing if you like, but I'm not at all likely to go past "I'm not for it." I'm not. Therefore, I don't like his answer. Many people don't like his answer. I guess many others do. That's why we're voting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NevadaRabbit Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 the fact that McCain's supporters (and veep) keep painting Obama as a radical when Joe, an American "good guy", has some pretty radical views, the fact that Wurzelbacher may in fact have ties which call into question his motivation for being in that Obama rally in the first place, are all pretty relevant issues. Surely the salary, job title, and distant relatives of a guy who asked the candidate a question are not nearly as relevant as the issues that continue to be brought up about the candidate himself...? There are many, many voters dissatisfied with the "vetting" of Senator Obama's ties to AYers, ACORN, his pastor, certain education committees in Chicago, and others. Surely these are more relevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saille Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 (edited) I'm going to stop posting for a while after this...I feel like I'm overposting, and I probably should have waited an hour for the dust to settle and just posted once. I am not at all upset by Obama's answer. I saw the tactic McCain was using in the first place as blatant pandering, which is also how I feel when he starts every. single. debate by saying that Ted Kennedy is in the hospital or Nancy Reagan fell down. When I saw interviews with Joe the Plumber, I was upset by what I saw, and he did not seem aboveboard to me. Hearing McCain hollering that "Joe the Plumber" won the debate sealed the deal for me. I want to know who this guy is, and I think it's a pretty clear referendum on McCain's poor judgement when he feels backed into a corner. I swear, the video of him at that roast was the first time I've seen him look relaxed and calm in the longest time. I cannot wait for this election to be over. ETA: NevadaRabbit, not only do I feel those things have been done to death, but I spent way too much time this morning searching out references related to a YouTube video of Hannity's big "expose" of Obama's radical ties. I could not find one credible connection. I spent a lot of time looking at Palin when she first appeared on the scene, and I'm content that I've found what there is. The conclusion I've come to is that the grey area in Obama's life is most likely incidental, and the grey area in Palin's is because people knew they were doing wrong when they did it, and therefore hemmed, hawwed, and covered things up. I completely understand that people on this board will disagree with me, I'm just making it clear that I'm not being diverted by Joe, he's a new issue and I'm following up. Edited October 17, 2008 by Saille Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unsinkable Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 I've got to disagree on this one. Obama has been vetted within an inch of his life, IMO. And I think, if McCain is going to make this guy a symbol of all that's wrong with Obama, then he'd better know who he's talking about. I feel much the same way about this that I do about the Palin nomination: he didn't do due diligence, and it makes me doubt his judgement, and the judgement of his advisors. He made an illogical, poorly researched emotional appeal his cornerstone in the third debate. The fact that he held a man up as an example who seems to have some ethical and logical issues, the fact that McCain's supporters (and veep) keep painting Obama as a radical when Joe, an American "good guy", has some pretty radical views, the fact that Wurzelbacher may in fact have ties which call into question his motivation for being in that Obama rally in the first place, are all pretty relevant issues. Our opinions differ on the vetting of Obama. Where are his college & law school records? Where are his law school papers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LizzyBee Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 People are upset by Obama's response to a question... so let's attack and discredit the questioner. Maybe we could send all the politicians and members of the media a copy of Fallacy Detective. Or at least send them a link so they can buy it for themselves. :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unsinkable Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 Maybe we could send all the politicians and members of the media a copy of Fallacy Detective. Or at least send them a link so they can buy it for themselves. :lol: Earmarks? ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 Maybe we could send all the politicians and members of the media a copy of Fallacy Detective. Or at least send them a link so they can buy it for themselves. :lol: Eww, I wouldn't send Bluedorn materials to my worst enemy :001_huh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soph the vet Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 I've got to disagree on this one. Obama has been vetted within an inch of his life, IMO. And I think, if McCain is going to make this guy a symbol of all that's wrong with Obama, then he'd better know who he's talking about. I feel much the same way about this that I do about the Palin nomination: he didn't do due diligence, and it makes me doubt his judgement, and the judgement of his advisors. He made an illogical, poorly researched emotional appeal his cornerstone in the third debate. The fact that he held a man up as an example who seems to have some ethical and logical issues, the fact that McCain's supporters (and veep) keep painting Obama as a radical when Joe, an American "good guy", has some pretty radical views, the fact that Wurzelbacher may in fact have ties which call into question his motivation for being in that Obama rally in the first place, are all pretty relevant issues. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Obama has been tossed nothing but softballs from the mainstream media. His character and associations should certainly be under scrutiny for the top office of our land. His voting record alone (when not marked "present") screams radical. His friends are radical, some of the mentors he claims are radical. If Louis Farrakan, Malcolm X., Rev. Wright and Bill Ayers are not radical then I don't know who is. Joe the plumber is not the one running for office so I guess I don't care how radical his views are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joy at Home Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 This is ridiculous. McCain should have vetted Joe the Plumber before mentioning his name in the debate? I saw it as mostly symbolic of blue collar America, not him specifically. He used his example to draw comparisons between tax plans, that's all. The fact that this has become about him, with his life being scrutinized, to me is very ugly. He asked a question without any way of knowing it would be latched on to by the politicians. Whether you are for McCain or Obama, surely that should be evident. I have no doubt that if, when questioned after the debate, Joe the Plumber said he supported Obama, none of this personal information would be deemed relevant. Lisa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soph the vet Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 Surely the salary, job title, and distant relatives of a guy who asked the candidate a question are not nearly as relevant as the issues that continue to be brought up about the candidate himself...? There are many, many voters dissatisfied with the "vetting" of Senator Obama's ties to AYers, ACORN, his pastor, certain education committees in Chicago, and others. Surely these are more relevant. Thanks for reminding me about these too. I must have taken off my tinfoil hat for awhile and I wasn't thinking straight. Yes, ACORN, how could I forget ACORN. Let's the real story here. I hope the FBI's national investigation turns up the truth on all this. Unsinkable also brought up where are the records? Yeah, Philip Berg would like to know too? Where are they? Just too many mysteries surrounding someone who will be the leader of the free world. At least I hope we will still be free. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LizzyBee Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 I also have a huge problem with the sound bite I heard today, in which Obama said, in a laughing voice, "A *plumber* is who McCain is fighting for!" and then his audience laughed. Oh my, if he meant that the way it sounds (and I hope he didn't), that's even worse than the answer to Joe's question. Having a different political philosophy is one thing, but an attitude of disdain and disrespect for the average American is another thing altogether. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIch elle Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 BEFORE Sen. McCain calls him "Joe the Plumber" and quotes him in a TV debate. :lol: It's that simple! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mom to Aly Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 For all of those bashing Obama, as usual, and cheering McCain, as usual, please take a look at some of the news, not blogs, about "Joe the Plumber"--here is an article that tells the background, including the fact that: "In fact, Obama, his running mate Joe Biden and their campaign have barely mentioned Wurzelbacher. Obama and Biden both attacked McCain for portraying Wurzelbacher as representative of most blue-collar workers, asking how many plumbers make $250,000 a year." Here is the link: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081017/ap_on_el_pr/mccain to this article: McCain Challenges Obama's Tax Cut Promise As it states, news crews are the ones digging through this guys life and background, not Obama. McCain is the one who made this guy famous, not Obama, because McCain quotes him all the time, brings him up all the time. If you are looking for someone to blame for this guy's fame, blame McCain; as for the guy owing back taxes, he has no one to blame but himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jejily Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 This is ridiculous. McCain should have vetted Joe the Plumber before mentioning his name in the debate? I saw it as mostly symbolic of blue collar America, not him specifically. He used his example to draw comparisons between tax plans, that's all. The fact that this has become about him, with his life being scrutinized, to me is very ugly. ... :iagree: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 The poor guy. He's being made a pawn in other people's games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam "SFSOM" in TN Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 (edited) Last night on NBC news my husband heard that they (NBC) did some checking into the Joe the Plumber thing and found out that he isn't a real plumber!! How's that, folks. Some are speculating that he was a "plant" from the Mccain camp, too. The guy (Joe) is just a plain and simple liar trying to get his 15 minutes of fame. What a jerk! Eh. I'm just not that concerned. I thought that the question and answer session that he had with Sen. Obama was good, and while it was obvious that had a bit of an agenda going into the exchange, I thought he was polite, controlled, and respectful. He asked his questions, he listened to the answers, and they parted amiably. I'm not sure he understood the part about "the net amount OVER $250,000 will be taxed at a higher rate" -- say he earned $280K: $30K would be taxed at 39% instead of the current 35% (or 33%), for an additional yearly tax of ~$750. But even though he probably doesn't have a plan to buy the business, it doesn't meant that he *couldn't* someday have the opportunity, and it doesn't mean that his question was not a good one. Plus, dang, he didn't seek out the interview -- I mean, unless I need my foil hat again. And if so, it's not Joe I'm annoyed at. :glare: I don't think I'd want to be married to him, based on his divorce records. :001_huh: And he owes some back taxes, and I disagree with his stance about the current war. But this was something McCain dragged him into, not something he sought at *this* level. Or rather... I choose to believe that. LOL I'd need some pretty concrete evidence, rather than speculation, to believe otherwise. Edited October 17, 2008 by Pam "SFSOM" in TN Rate corrections -- hat tip to LizzyBee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mom to Aly Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 This is ridiculous. McCain should have vetted Joe the Plumber before mentioning his name in the debate? I saw it as mostly symbolic of blue collar America, not him specifically. He used his example to draw comparisons between tax plans, that's all. The fact that this has become about him, with his life being scrutinized, to me is very ugly. He asked a question without any way of knowing it would be latched on to by the politicians. Whether you are for McCain or Obama, surely that should be evident. Again, the news has been hounding "Joe", not Obama, McCain is the one that is making "Joe" famous, not Obama, and, I must agree with Obama on this, if someone is worried about paying taxes on an income of $250,000+ a year, I'd hardly call them blue collar, no matter their profession. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenny in Atl Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 Everyone? When I have disposable income, I donate to libraries and other organizations. If I had my taxes back, I'd happily help to support the institutions I think are worth supporting. However, taxing the rich at a higher rate, and deliberately redistributing the wealth, is not necessary to fund those programs you mentioned. Sen. Obama was talking about wealth redistribution, as in taking MORE money from the wealthy and "spreading it around." I'm not for it, and I don't believe that we need it to make this country work. We can keep discussing if you like, but I'm not at all likely to go past "I'm not for it." I'm not. Therefore, I don't like his answer. Many people don't like his answer. I guess many others do. That's why we're voting. How exactly would you fund medicare, libraries, roads, schools, etc w/o tax money? I like the idea of the Fair Tax, but in the end it's still a tax on those who can spend (the so-called rich). The wealthy have always paid more, higher property taxes, income tax, tax on the value of their cars (newer more expensive cars have higher tag fees.. at least where I live), sales tax on the goods they buy, etc. I think we need to define "redistribution". Again, I am playing devil's advocate here. I know many who are pro Mccain, screaming Obama is a socialist, etc. But if you told them that we needed to down size government and end medicare or the Bush prescription drug plan, do you think these same Mccain supporters over 65 would be happy? Do most of us really follow where out taxes go? Is our money only taken and sent to some welfare mom who pumps out kid and kid, while munching on KFC? It's easy to rail against taxes, but much harder to come up with alternatives that can help all Americans to help themselves, which in turn lifts all of us up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LizzyBee Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 Eww, I wouldn't send Bluedorn materials to my worst enemy :001_huh: Know of any good secular Logic materials? That'd be fine by me. :001_smile: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soph the vet Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 The poor guy. He's being made a pawn in other people's games. Hey, Bill, I've got some news for you...WE ARE ALL PAWNS in their game!! Soph (who doesn't know whether to post a smilie or burst out crying) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zelda Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 Six degress of separation, huh? McCain MUST have put him up to this, then! :glare: Honestly, this would be ridiculous if it weren't a little disturbing. People are upset by Obama's response to a question... so let's attack and discredit the questioner. Does this bother anyone else, or is it just me? Seriously, let's get real. This guy acted on his own accord -- he was not a "plant." He had no idea how Barack Obama would answer his question; he had no idea it would turn into this major media event. He certainly didn't "trick" Obama into giving the response he did, and shouldn't Obama's response be the focus of discussion, not the guy who asked the question?! Bothers me. This whole thing is very Kos Kids. Yes, Joe the Plumbing Apprentice is not voting for Obama...let it go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 Know of any good secular Logic materials? That'd be fine by me. :001_smile: No I don't. We keep looking for those...but it is an illusive hunt. Play on! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenny in Atl Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 Hey, Bill, I've got some news for you...WE ARE ALL PAWNS in their game!!Soph (who doesn't know whether to post a smilie or burst out crying) Only because we continue to allow ourselves to be used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joy at Home Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 "In fact, Obama, his running mate Joe Biden and their campaign have barely mentioned Wurzelbacher. Obama and Biden both attacked McCain for portraying Wurzelbacher as representative of most blue-collar workers, asking how many plumbers make $250,000 a year." __________________________ When I heard this I thought it was typical class warfare rhetoric. The man does not need to be a licensed plumber to be in the profession. I don't think when he asked a simple question he was expecting the details of his profession to be examined. He said he was a plumber when asking a legitimate question of a candidate, that's close enough for me. He makes a modest income now, but hopes to buy a business someday, thereby pushing him into the higher income bracket. Isn't this the American way? Shouldn't this be commended? Why is he being vilified? I will say it again: He was approached by the press after the debate and asked who he supported. If he had said he supported Obama, he would be portrayed in a much different light by the mainstream media. No liberal bias? Yeah, right. Lisa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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