I know you're not supposed to put a kid on a diet, but...

[ktgrok]

I will agree to an extent.  What if that doesn't work?  Eventually, an obese tween or teen is going to realize they are very over weight.  If healthy eating and healthy living don't work should we just not suggest a next step?

 

If eating healthy and healthy lifestyle don't work, nagging them won't either. 

[bolt.]

OP I know I have threadjacked this, but I am dealing with the same issue with one kid being thin and the other obese. Just now I heated up leftover meatloaf....I made them meatloaf sandwiches. Ds16 wanted 2 but there wasn't enough for them both to have to two.....should I let ds16 have 2 and ds15 have one? Ds16 is starving all the time. Ds16 put no condiments on his sandwhich...ds15? Mayo. I said nothing...but I want to.

Wanting two sandwiches when there isn't enough food for that to be his fair share is odd. Simply tell him that he can have one, or one-and-a-half, and that's all, because that's all there is.

 

Putting a thin layer of mayo on sandwiches is normal, and it does little harm unless the serving size is excessive. It would be fine to "say something" if that's what you wanted to say (that mayo is a food that healthy people spread thinly)... What else did you "want to say"?

 

I try not to offer 'carbs and meat' alone -- as if it's the meal, making other things seem optional. Sandwiches alone are not a meal to me. Sandwiches with a couple of veggies (maybe salad) and a fruit or two is what makes it a meal. It's also what makes the body take its time before sending hunger signals again.

 

I find fruit and veg aren't very filling alone (ie as a snack) but, with meals, they add volume that makes the filling parts of meals (protien, fat) much more filling for much longer. Maybe try, 'one sandwich to start, and an extra half if you finish up the big portions of side dishes (fruit and veg) that came on the plate with the first sandwich.'?

Edited November 1, 2016 by bolt.

[ktgrok]

As someone who has been morbidly obese, if I had a child that was that obese, I'd find a specialist. Someone who deals entirely with pediatric obesity. Not a regular nutritionist, not a regular doctor. I can say right now that the advice given by bariatric or obesity specialists is VERY different than that given by regular doctors and nutritionists. 

[bolt.]

As someone who has been morbidly obese, if I had a child that was that obese, I'd find a specialist. Someone who deals entirely with pediatric obesity. Not a regular nutritionist, not a regular doctor. I can say right now that the advice given by bariatric or obesity specialists is VERY different than that given by regular doctors and nutritionists.

Do tell?

[Farrar]

I find it really hard to suss out what's right in these sorts of things... someone I knew had a dd who she was constantly complaining was "too big." She put the dd on a quiet diet... the sort of things some people are talking about here - limiting her bad foods, etc. She enforced more exercise time. None of that way bad exactly, but the way she talked about the dd wasn't good. I had trouble believing that at least some of it wasn't coming through to the dd. And... here was the kicker. The dd wasn't fat. She had the sort of little kid round belly. She was slightly pudgy with baby fat. She was bigger than her sibs at the same age... but in no way did that child need to lose weight. Like, no way. I think the mom was carrying a lot of baggage about her own childhood and weight and I don't even know what else because she just couldn't see her own kid clearly. It was so sad. And weird. I don't know if I really trust parents to evaluate if their kids have crossed some line to needing help.

 

My other story is that another mom I know had a ds who was overweight - and different from his sibs. She pushed and pushed him to do more physical activity, which he resisted. It turned out there was an undiagnosed physical thing that made it harder for him to run and walk. Not painful painful but just harder enough that he was a little more sedentary. So... I guess there are a whole host of physical issues that can keep kids from being more active. Another family I know has a kid who has trouble getting active because of allergies. It's just hard to want to be out when you feel icky. And then bad habits form. It's not obvious at first, but it's there...

[Scarlett]

Wanting two sandwiches when there isn't enough food for that to be his fair share is odd. Simply tell him that he can have one, or one-and-a-half, and that's all, because that's all there is.

 

Putting a thin layer of mayo on sandwiches is normal, and it does little harm unless the serving size is excessive. It would be fine to "say something" if that's what you wanted to say (that mayo is a food that healthy people spread thinly)... What else did you "want to say"?

 

I try not to offer 'carbs and meat' alone -- as if it's the meal, making other things seem optional. Sandwiches alone are not a meal to me. Sandwiches with a couple of veggies (maybe salad) and a fruit or two is what makes it a meal. It's also what makes the body take its time before sending hunger signals again.

 

I find fruit and veg aren't very filling alone (ie as a snack) but, with meals, they add volume that makes the filling parts of meals (protien, fat) much more filling for much longer. Maybe try, 'one sandwich to start, and an extra half if you finish up the big portions of side dishes (fruit and veg) that came on the plate with the first sandwich.'?

Well it may not have been the best lunch but not the worst. Ther was a fresh salad in the fridge but they didn't want that.

 

And you may not have understood.. The thin boy wanted two sandwiches.....but i feel funny giving him 2 and dss only one....

[ktgrok]

Do tell?

 

The carb heavy, whole grains, low fat approach is what most doctors and nutritionists push. Bariatric doctors, and obesity clinics, go low carb, no sugar. It's a totally different approach. They do tend to be lower fat than say, a paleo or atkins style, so yes, have some cheese. Put some half and half in your coffee. But don't melt half a stick of butter on your veggies, or eat bacon at every meal. It's more like what the original "paleo" diet looked like, before it melded with primal and atkins. Lean meats, veggies, fruit. Some limited whole grains once doing well (or including some whole grains, depending on the doctor). That's what every bariatric doctor pushes (some allow beans, some don't), and what say, the Duke Lifestyle Clinic or whatever their weight loss clinic is called, suggest. 

 

Once you are Obese, your metabolism is fundamentally different than it used to be. Your gut hormones are telling you you are hungry. Your insulin is telling you you are hungry. Just eating less and exercising more isn't enough, it's torture. Your biology is working against you and you need help. 

 

Also, in my experience bariatric/obesity specialists will address psychological issues related to eating, but don't blow off all eating issues as psychological. It's much much less about willpower, and flaws, and self hate, and more about biology. That's a huge relief when you are struggling so hard. Not being blamed makes a big difference. Admitting it is hard makes a huge difference. 

[HomeAgain]

Well it may not have been the best lunch but not the worst. Ther was a fresh salad in the fridge but they didn't want that.

 

And you may not have understood.. The thin boy wanted two sandwiches.....but i feel funny giving him 2 and dss only one....

 

I think the point is everyone needs to eat healthy.  Period.  It is not okay to say "you're thin, so you can eat more junk".  It still isn't good for the body.

 

Give them each one, then salad, fruits, veggies if they're still hungry.

[hornblower]

Well it may not have been the best lunch but not the worst. Ther was a fresh salad in the fridge but they didn't want that.

 

And you may not have understood.. The thin boy wanted two sandwiches.....but i feel funny giving him 2 and dss only one....

I think sadly life isn't fair & he already knows it's not fair. One person may need to eat a certain # of calories & certain types of foods just to maintain their body weight, and another person might have strict restrictions on calories & types of foods. It sucks. 

 

In Ontario, Dr Yoni Freedhoff runs a non surgical Bariatric Clinic which is free to residents. He's really active on twitter. Perhaps reach out to him & see if he can suggest something similar in your area. 

 

He's into long term, life long positive changes & using evidence based interventions. For children, the focus is on the entire family. http://bmimedical.ca/childhood-obesity-programs  

 

this is his twitter feed https://twitter.com/yonifreedhoff

Edited November 1, 2016 by hornblower

[SparklyUnicorn]

I think sadly life isn't fair & he already knows it's not fair. One person may need to eat a certain # of calories & certain types of foods just to maintain their body weight, and another person might have strict restrictions on calories & types of foods. It sucks. 

 

In Ontario, Dr Yoni Freedhoff runs a non surgical Bariatric Clinic which is free to residents. He's really active on twitter. Perhaps reach out to him & see if he can suggest something similar in your area. 

 

He's into long term, life long positive changes & using evidence based interventions. For children, the focus is on the entire family. http://bmimedical.ca/childhood-obesity-programs  

 

this is his twitter feed https://twitter.com/yonifreedhoff

 

So true, but I think too this is ingrained one way or another.  You portion out stuff and you think...what's fair before thinking what's the appropriate amount.  If I go to a restaurant they give the same portions to everyone.  I know I can take stuff home, but meh some of it doesn't taste so good later on.  And I feel compelled to eat it because it was so expensive and it was ingrained that I should not waste food.

I kind of encourage my kids to waste food.  I don't mean on purpose, but if we go to a restaurant or I gave them too much I don't tell them they should finish it.  (This drives my husband nuts, but I insist.) My husband's mother not only got nasty about wasting food, she got nasty if you would not eat seconds or more.  And she is still like that.  I literally started getting angry because she kept pushing food on me (last time I visited and every time I visit).  Everyone in her family overeats like crazy.  No wonder my husband has issues. 

[Guest]

OP I know I have threadjacked this, but I am dealing with the same issue with one kid being thin and the other obese. Just now I heated up leftover meatloaf....I made them meatloaf sandwiches. Ds16 wanted 2 but there wasn't enough for them both to have to two.....should I let ds16 have 2 and ds15 have one? Ds16 is starving all the time. Ds16 put no condiments on his sandwhich...ds15? Mayo. I said nothing...but I want to.

What's wrong with mayo? It's way more filling than a dry sandwich. Loading up on fat and protein is exactly how to get his body to signal satiety. When I'm hungry and I'm a hurry my FIRST move is to grab an egg or a pat of butter and eat them straight. They take the edge off like few other foods.

 

I have a hard time with these discussions because I was the kid who was always hungry and the one for wholesale puberty finally ruined energy processing. I was super morbidly obese as an older teen despite trying my hardest to manage my weight and stay active.

 

And let me tell you, a moralizing and naturally thin step mom was zero help. For her, she just ate plain oatmeal and skipped a meal and lost weight. I ate three bowls with butter and was hungry an hour later. She assumed our bodies, let alone our minds, were the same. Imagine my frustration and surprise when suddenly my willpower was perfect and my satiety was normal once I cut out sugar and starch. When suddenly mindless snacking or emotional eating were my only food issues and easily managed without intense physiological hunger and cravings to drive them. Imagine my anger as doctors and dietiticians continued to spew the same crap dietary tripe that had never worked for me before and insist it was me lying instead of an actual medical problem in my body that was to blame.

 

I've been that kid. I'm that adult still. And someone who doesn't live in this kind of body just doesn't really understand. You want to help him? Sit him down, tell him you will facilitate whatever he needs without withholding food or guilting him, and hand him a nice, well formulated diet primer like Protein Power or Dr. Atkins New Diet Revolution. If he does either faithfully for six months with no substantive changes, check it off the list and move onto another plan. But I think this poor kid would benefit from what LOTS of us with no off button and massive fat tissue influencing our hormones benefit from - low carb and whole foods approaches that actually give us a fighting chance at dealing with cravings, let alone weight.

 

Maybe he did just emotionally eat himself beyond his body's ability to handle it, like an alcoholic drinking themselves to death. But given the built in feedback loop of a healthy body and the social and psychological damage of being a fat teen, it's probably not that simple at all.

 

https://www.amazon.com/Protein-Power-High-Protein-Carbohydrate-Health/dp/0553574752

https://www.amazon.com/Atkins-Diet-Revolution-Revised-Paperback/dp/B0083SGZ0K/ref=sr_1_12?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1478032474&sr=1-12

 

I do not recommend formalizing any dietary approach for a small kid, but we use the same principles in my house for the smaller people and it is helping my kiddo who was cursed with my same metabolic issues while still nourishing the more naturally thin siblings too. Don't ration protein or fat or veggies. Maybe direct them to cottage cheese or hardboiled eggs instead of roast, but mayo isn't the enemy of someone who is hungry. And yes, the fat person probably needs more food than the thin one, because the higher body mass takes more energy to maintain. In this case offering both boys additional food items like broccoli, cheese, and some nuts until they're not hungry is the best solution to filling them both up when more main course isn't available, than just wondering why they're both still hungry and making value judgments on who is more worthy of food. Now if neither wants more salad or whatever I wouldn't give anymore more main course, as a matter of balance but that's very different than limiting their calories based on what comes down to rationing.

 

 

This whole thing hurts my heart.

Edited November 1, 2016 by Arctic Mama

[SparklyUnicorn]

What's wrong with mayo? It's way more filling than a dry sandwich. Loading up on fat and protein is exactly how to get his body to signal satiety. When I'm hungry and I'm a hurry my FIRST move is to grab an egg or a pat of butter and eat them straight. They take the edge off like few other foods.

 

 

Yeah somehow a lot of us have been screwed up by this thinking of low fat..to the extreme.  What happens, I think, is it just backfires.  We get hungry and resort to junk because the low fat meal we had wasn't very satisfying.

[Guest]

And Scarlett, I know you mean well. My stepmom did too. But she also didn't really understand what was going on in my body and how it contributed to what looked, on the outside, like boredom eating and excessiveness for no apparent reason. And why top ramen and an apple didn't fix anything, nor living on Diet Coke and dry subway sandwiches.

[CupOCoffee]

I have read all pages in this thread.  I am not one to post much on this board, but been around for a long time.  Basically, for both mothers of concern (OP and Scarlett) I would suggest as others have done: make eating healthier a family affair, not focused on the child that needs the weight loss.  Everyone gives up sugars and white starches; they'll all be better off in the end anyway.

 

I will LOUDLY agree with those who've (whithout saying out loud) suggest a Low Carb style of eating.  Fats and Proteins are the fillers, they satisfy and keep a person fuller longer.  So yes, let him have the meatloaf with may -- but leave out the bread.  Not saying to cut out all carbs, but saying to out junky carbs: white bread, sugar, cereals, etc.  Learn about foods and what they do: carbs turn into sugar in the body!

 

There are many options out there to learn the low carb way of life, just choose one and stick to it; a previous poster made the suggeestion of choosing a program and making a promise to stick to it (honestly) for 6 months and see what happens.  I'd even suggest doing it for 3 mos (but 100% committed) and I bet you will see a huge difference.

 

I truly believe that eating a low-carb, higher fat, no sugar way is the answer to so many things.  And doing it as a family is all that much better.

 

Now going back to lurkdome,

 

theresa

[Soror]

I find it really hard to suss out what's right in these sorts of things... someone I knew had a dd who she was constantly complaining was "too big." She put the dd on a quiet diet... the sort of things some people are talking about here - limiting her bad foods, etc. She enforced more exercise time. None of that way bad exactly, but the way she talked about the dd wasn't good. I had trouble believing that at least some of it wasn't coming through to the dd. And... here was the kicker. The dd wasn't fat. She had the sort of little kid round belly. She was slightly pudgy with baby fat. She was bigger than her sibs at the same age... but in no way did that child need to lose weight. Like, no way. I think the mom was carrying a lot of baggage about her own childhood and weight and I don't even know what else because she just couldn't see her own kid clearly. It was so sad. And weird. I don't know if I really trust parents to evaluate if their kids have crossed some line to needing help.

 

My other story is that another mom I know had a ds who was overweight - and different from his sibs. She pushed and pushed him to do more physical activity, which he resisted. It turned out there was an undiagnosed physical thing that made it harder for him to run and walk. Not painful painful but just harder enough that he was a little more sedentary. So... I guess there are a whole host of physical issues that can keep kids from being more active. Another family I know has a kid who has trouble getting active because of allergies. It's just hard to want to be out when you feel icky. And then bad habits form. It's not obvious at first, but it's there...

In this case, though the child is actually overweight/obese? and the vast majority are advocating for family changes, not just singling out the overweight kid. 

 

We all exercise in my family, although like another PP I don't really care for that term. I'm (generally!) not forcing anyone, although we all have days where we don't feel like it. We do family PE(me and the kids together), I picked something fun for everybody and we've done this kind of stuff together forever so it is just a matter of what we do. We take walks and ride bikes together. Ds and i ran a 5k this Spring. We make fairly good choices for food but we're not perfect. it is an open conversation, we do these things because they are healthy even though the kids and i are all well within healthy weight ranges i still want to instill good choices in them because being healthy is about far more than just being skinny. 

 

I think the point about seeing a child's obesity specialist is worth considering. In my head I was picturing a kid just starting to become overweight. Ideally i think it of course easier to head it off before kids gets severely obese and i wouldn't want to screw things up further. i also strongly agree with checking into medical issues.

[SKL]

I would just say we are all different.  Fats and carbs don't affect everyone the same either.  I would start with moderation and an open mind, and work from there as you see what works.

 

The thing is, your basic structure needs to be one that encourages long-term healthy habits.  Doing something good every day for months is going to have a positive effect - whether it's tweaking fat or carbs or sugar or all of them.  Once the healthy habit is instilled, it is going to feel good and be easy to maintain.

 

And I think the other message here is that the earlier you start, the better.  It may be rough being the heavy kid in 2nd grade, but being a still heavier kid in 8th is going to be a lot worse.  Being the person silently dinged in the job interview is going to be still worse.  It's never too late to start, but I'd also say that after toddlerhood, it's also never too early.

[whitestavern]

Dh took dss15 for a check up last month.  The first he has been to in probably 8 years.  The doctor showed him what his BMI is (36) and that was that.  No further mention of his weight.  

 

That's a shame. Though so many physicians are overweight, I'm not sure any directives coming from them would be meaningful or taken seriously. Also, doctors get virtually no education in what constitutes a healthy diet and what they do get is wrong, IMO.

 

I agree with much of what you've said in this thread. I have an overweight dd who is in 3 varsity sports and eats very healthy meals at home. But she eats too much. She also eats a lot of crap outside of the house (is in brick and mortar school) I've stressed healthy eating to my dc their whole lives, but they don't really care. Junk food is designed to taste good and get you to eat a lot of it. I'd love to tell her not to have seconds, but ds is a rail and can have extras without gaining weight so it's not really fair to limit everyone. I don't know what I can say to her, but I do feel like I have to say something.

[SparklyUnicorn]

That's a shame. Though so many physicians are overweight, I'm not sure any directives coming from them would be meaningful or taken seriously. Also, doctors get virtually no education in what constitutes a healthy diet and what they do get is wrong, IMO.

 

I agree with much of what you've said in this thread. I have an overweight dd who is in 3 varsity sports and eats very healthy meals at home. But she eats too much. She also eats a lot of crap outside of the house (is in brick and mortar school) I've stressed healthy eating to my dc their whole lives, but they don't really care. Junk food is designed to taste good and get you to eat a lot of it. I'd love to tell her not to have seconds, but ds is a rail and can have extras without gaining weight so it's not really fair to limit everyone. I don't know what I can say to her, but I do feel like I have to say something.

 

Yep.  I almost died when I stepped on the scale yesterday, but (perhaps horrible) relived the doc was overweight.  LOL  She didn't say a word.  What is she going to say?!  Whatever the advice she either doesn't take it or it doesn't work for her either.

 

I am trying though.  Just hard to have patience and make changes. 

[Farrar]

In this case, though the child is actually overweight/obese? and the vast majority are advocating for family changes, not just singling out the overweight kid. 

 

 

I'm just unclear though... I mean, obesity for children is above the 95th percentile, not the 90th, which is what I think she said she's at. It does sound like she's overweight... but shouldn't the doctor make this call? Does she really need an obesity specialist? What's up with her being so much taller as well? It just seems like there's more going on. I don't know if the OP is seeing her clearly or not. This child is just much, much bigger than her siblings even aside from whether there are any weight issues. And I think it's hard to walk a certain line where you're making what should be positive changes for everyone in the family but when you're making them because you're trying to make one child lose weight, do we really think everyone doesn't know what it's *really* about? 

 

I think she should probably talk to the doctor and see if there's anything to be this worried about.

[kiana]

I'm just unclear though... I mean, obesity for children is above the 95th percentile, not the 90th, which is what I think she said she's at. It does sound like she's overweight... but shouldn't the doctor make this call? Does she really need an obesity specialist? What's up with her being so much taller as well? It just seems like there's more going on. I don't know if the OP is seeing her clearly or not. This child is just much, much bigger than her siblings even aside from whether there are any weight issues. And I think it's hard to walk a certain line where you're making what should be positive changes for everyone in the family but when you're making them because you're trying to make one child lose weight, do we really think everyone doesn't know what it's *really* about? 

 

I think she should probably talk to the doctor and see if there's anything to be this worried about.

 

In a later post, she said BMI was above the 95th percentile and weight was off the charts -- you probably missed it because it's the first post on page 2. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

A doctor once told me that BMI isn't the greatest measure for young kids.  No clue how young we are talking, but he said he didn't use it for younger kids. 

[SKL]

If OP says her kid is overweight, I don't need facts and figures to back it up.

 

I know lots of kids who are both tall for their age and heavy for their height.  They got that way because they were such eager eaters when they were little, and their parents were advised to let them be.  Just because they are tall does not mean they are healthy.

[hornblower]

A doctor once told me that BMI isn't the greatest measure for young kids.  No clue how young we are talking, but he said he didn't use it for younger kids. 

 

this isn't true. you can't use the regular bmi charts but there are special bmi charts for kids. They have a well documented dip in them if you look at them - & their ranges are different than adult charts. 

 

CDC has them on their site. I linked above somewhere...

 

 

[hornblower]

Low carb is not the solution for everyone. 

 

While cutting sugars & junk food is a good starting point for most people, even I (who have a definite bias on this subject - I'm a pretty high carb vegan) will admit that people lose weight on a variety of meal plans. 

What is sustainable & healthy long term is a separate discussion :)

[Scarlett]

this isn't true. you can't use the regular bmi charts but there are special bmi charts for kids. They have a well documented dip in them if you look at them - & their ranges are different than adult charts. 

 

CDC has them on their site. I linked above somewhere...

 

 

 

 

Yes that is what I used for both my teen boys.

[SparklyUnicorn]

this isn't true. you can't use the regular bmi charts but there are special bmi charts for kids. They have a well documented dip in them if you look at them - & their ranges are different than adult charts. 

 

CDC has them on their site. I linked above somewhere...

 

 

 

Yeah just another example of (another) doctor not seeming to know much in this department.  He ignored me when I mentioned my kid won't eat vegetables.  He told my 14 year old to eat small portions so his weight doesn't creep up. 

Thanks doc...so so helpful.  :glare:

[SparklyUnicorn]

Yes that is what I used for both my teen boys.

 

The OP said her kid was 7.  I wasn't talking about teens.

[Scarlett]

That's a shame. Though so many physicians are overweight, I'm not sure any directives coming from them would be meaningful or taken seriously. Also, doctors get virtually no education in what constitutes a healthy diet and what they do get is wrong, IMO.

 

I agree with much of what you've said in this thread. I have an overweight dd who is in 3 varsity sports and eats very healthy meals at home. But she eats too much. She also eats a lot of crap outside of the house (is in brick and mortar school) I've stressed healthy eating to my dc their whole lives, but they don't really care. Junk food is designed to taste good and get you to eat a lot of it. I'd love to tell her not to have seconds, but ds is a rail and can have extras without gaining weight so it's not really fair to limit everyone. I don't know what I can say to her, but I do feel like I have to say something.

 

 

This doctor is a DO and he is young and in fantastic shape.  So it was even more surprising that he didn't say more to dss15.

[Scarlett]

The OP said her kid was 7.  I wasn't talking about teens.

 

 

Oh sorry.  But still the CDC has a chart for kids....they ask for the year of birth so I assume they are adjusting for age.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Oh sorry.  But still the CDC has a chart for kids....they ask for the year of birth so I assume they are adjusting for age.

 

Yes they adjust.

 

Really I don't know what to believe anymore.  I told a doctor yesterday I think I might have a magnesium deficiency.  I've taken a drug that is known to deplete magnesium and have several of the symptoms so that doesn't seem like the worst guess ever.  I don't expect her to take my word for it and to test for it, but you know what she said to me?  Oh...magnesium isn't really that important (when I asked if I should supplement).   Okay. 

 

I guess she can manage to order lab work, but if she keeps saying stuff like that I dunno.  Why can't I find a doctor that listens to me?

 

A whole other thread I think.  Maybe I'll start one later.

[Guest]

Low carb is not the solution for everyone.

 

While cutting sugars & junk food is a good starting point for most people, even I (who have a definite bias on this subject - I'm a pretty high carb vegan) will admit that people lose weight on a variety of meal plans.

 

What is sustainable & healthy long term is a separate discussion :)

With a morbidly obese child or teen who doesn't have another endocrine disorder at play, it is a much wiser starting point dietarily to regulate insulin and appetite, or disprove those as causal factors (which a no sugar/starch plan will do faster and more completely due to the dietary guidelines at play). This isn't just dietary preference - that's why I suggested testing for several months without deviation and looking at results. If the child's body and signaling responds positively as mine did, great. If not, you have eliminated a category of diet types from the to-try list, and also eliminated high insulin or insulin resistance of the cells as the driving mechanism behind their obesity.

 

Obesity, especially in high degree, in a young person is a very different animal than extra fat coming on after a pregnancy, or middle age weight increases. Someone who has been fairly slim and with normal appetite regulation as a child and young adult but gains weight later is not looking at the same underlying physical issues and they shouldn't be treated the same.

 

Vegetarianism and veganism can help weight, but they aren't solutions that appear to work best for this slice of the population so much as post puberty, moderately overweight or class 1 obese adults, as well as those whose weight gain came primarily from habits or poor nutrition instead of metabolic and energy management dysfunction like metabolic syndrome and type 2 diabetes. Age and etiology matter, and correlate strongly with genetic expression.

Edited November 1, 2016 by Arctic Mama

[SKL]

This doctor is a DO and he is young and in fantastic shape.  So it was even more surprising that he didn't say more to dss15.

 

For every parent who gets mad about the doc *not* bringing up weight, there's another parent who gets riled when the doctor *does* bring it up.

 

If I want the doctor to talk to my kid about something, I ask the doctor to do so.

[Guest]

Yes they adjust.

 

Really I don't know what to believe anymore. I told a doctor yesterday I think I might have a magnesium deficiency. I've taken a drug that is known to deplete magnesium and have several of the symptoms so that doesn't seem like the worst guess ever. I don't expect her to take my word for it and to test for it, but you know what she said to me? Oh...magnesium isn't really that important (when I asked if I should supplement). Okay.

 

I guess she can manage to order lab work, but if she keeps saying stuff like that I dunno. Why can't I find a doctor that listens to me?

 

A whole other thread I think. Maybe I'll start one later.

Oh brother, start a thread! Magnesium deficiencies are at play in a host of symptoms and it is critical for the function of your nerves and muscles. Like, massively important. Idiotic doctor.

[nd293]

if there's cereal in the house, that's what the kids choose for breakfast, lunch, and snacks. They talked me into buying a couple of boxes this morning. It will be gone in a couple days... I mention sweets because we have been making a lot of day trips lately, and dd begs for dessert at every single restaurant we've stopped at. We were at the mall the other night and she practically had a meltdown because I wouldn't buy ice cream. Or cookies. Or frozen yogurt. She's making me crazy!

 

My son is like that. It's not just about food, either, if something has been allowed once it's in his nature to push for it again. What works for us is to have a blanket 'No' policy outside of clear guidelines that include a timeframe. So he has one biscuit a day, in his lunchbox. I buy a slab of chocolate each week and break it into 2 square sections and we each know we can take a piece after dinner. Sure, we do have days where we have more than that, but the rules are clear.

 

Cereal is not a food here (I'm not sure it should be anywhere, with that sugar content!). It's clearly in the junk food category. As such, and like any junk food, it's allowed and enjoyed occasionally. He gets a small box of fruit loops for his birthday each year! If we buy a box of Cheerios they're mostly treated like biscuits, and he'll often take a small tub in place of a biscuit. Like icecream, we buy cereal maybe once every two months. While it's there it's enjoyed, but everyone knows it won't make another appearance for a while.

[Scarlett]

My son is like that. It's not just about food, either, if something has been allowed once it's in his nature to push for it again. What works for us is to have a blanket 'No' policy outside of clear guidelines that include a timeframe. So he has one biscuit a day, in his lunchbox. I buy a slab of chocolate each week and break it into 2 square sections and we each know we can take a piece after dinner. Sure, we do have days where we have more than that, but the rules are clear.

 

Cereal is not a food here (I'm not sure it should be anywhere, with that sugar content!). It's clearly in the junk food category. As such, and like any junk food, it's allowed and enjoyed occasionally. He gets a small box of fruit loops for his birthday each year! If we buy a box of Cheerios they're mostly treated like biscuits, and he'll often take a small tub in place of a biscuit. Like icecream, we buy cereal maybe once every two months. While it's there it's enjoyed, but everyone knows it won't make another appearance for a while.

 

 

I have been buying cereal for Dss15....not total junk cereal...but yes the sugar is pretty high.  And he goes through a box of 8 servings in like 3 days.  I have explained that to him....I say look I am not saying you can't have what you want, but if you have a desire to lose weight, you need to be aware of what a serving is.  

[hornblower]

Yeah just another example of (another) doctor not seeming to know much in this department.  He ignored me when I mentioned my kid won't eat vegetables.  He told my 14 year old to eat small portions so his weight doesn't creep up. 

Thanks doc...so so helpful.  :glare:

 

I think we expect too much of physicians. Their training is real and thorough but it's tightly focused. I think too often we ask them questions which are really not their realm of expertise. 

 

At the same time, I wish more physicians would just say : this isn't my field of expertise. Please consult a Registered Dietician or a weight loss physician at these certified licenced clinics (or a lactation consultant! How many times they send people out with appallingly poor breastfeeding advice! Grrrr.) 

 

 

They give parenting advice too which quite often is just based on either their cultural biases or their own parenting experience - which is fine but it's about as valid as asking the lady at the bus stop & we should treat it as such, but we don't, because a doctor said it...., kwim? 

[hornblower]

Vegetarianism and veganism can help weight, but they aren't solutions that appear to work best for this slice of the population 

 

I think the Forks over Knives people & the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine would disagree.   

[ktgrok]

Low carb is not the solution for everyone. 

 

While cutting sugars & junk food is a good starting point for most people, even I (who have a definite bias on this subject - I'm a pretty high carb vegan) will admit that people lose weight on a variety of meal plans. 

 

What is sustainable & healthy long term is a separate discussion :)

 

We could probably at least agree on low glycemic index :)

 

But I don't think very low fat is a great idea for growing teens. So although I know there is evidence to support a very low fat (less than 10 percent) diet (generally vegan) for weight loss, I don't know if that is appropriate for growing brains. 

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[Guest]

I have been buying cereal for Dss15....not total junk cereal...but yes the sugar is pretty high. And he goes through a box of 8 servings in like 3 days. I have explained that to him....I say look I am not saying you can't have what you want, but if you have a desire to lose weight, you need to be aware of what a serving is.

But Scarlett, cereal is junk! It isn't filling and lacks nutritional density for the calories. Terrible choice for someone who needs to control their weight and hunger. Two eggs, a slice of toast, and some celery and peanut butter is a much better breakfast. If he is in a hurry then do a cup of cottage cheese and a tablespoon jam - these are both higher in sugar than some of us can tolerate but WORLDS better for a growing boy who is fighting his appetite than cereal.

 

This is why I'm begging you to grab him a solid book on the subject, read through it, and have him read through it next. Even my metabolically healthy and normal weight husband and kids cannot be full on a single bowl of cereal and milk. The TODDLER goes for seconds, along with two hardboiled eggs and a tangerine. This is basic stuff and totally controllable. A bowl of oatmeal with cream, cinnmon, and butter is even a better choice than the highest quality cereal at Trader Joe's I can think of.

 

If the poor kid is already fat, already fighting hunger AND emotional eating, cereal and sandwiches and chips and rice and apples and energy drinks and anything else in the same vein of starch, sugar, or general junk are absolutely the worst choices to have in the house. They are all very difficult to self regulate - yes, even the stupid apple - if you fight your blood sugar and cravings. This is something someone who has a healthy metabolism and body mass isn't really going to understand, because their body will react inherently differently to this food input than the obese, sick person.

[ktgrok]

 

Vegetarianism and veganism can help weight, but they aren't solutions that appear to work best for this slice of the population so much as post puberty, moderately overweight or class 1 obese adults, as well as those whose weight gain came primarily from habits or poor nutrition instead of metabolic and energy management dysfunction like metabolic syndrome and type 2 diabetes. Age and etiology matter, and correlate strongly with genetic expression.

 

Yeah, I was vegetarian for a decade, and vegan for several years. Didn't lose any weight. 

[hornblower]

I have been buying cereal for Dss15....not total junk cereal...but yes the sugar is pretty high.  And he goes through a box of 8 servings in like 3 days.  I have explained that to him....I say look I am not saying you can't have what you want, but if you have a desire to lose weight, you need to be aware of what a serving is.  

 

Would he be open to using a scale & just keeping track of how many calories he's consuming, maybe using the My Fitness Pal app?  So hard to know with teens but this is one way he could take control. 

 

&/or switch cereal to lower sugar one? Aren't the original cheerios pretty low sugar?  

[ktgrok]

I have been buying cereal for Dss15....not total junk cereal...but yes the sugar is pretty high.  And he goes through a box of 8 servings in like 3 days.  I have explained that to him....I say look I am not saying you can't have what you want, but if you have a desire to lose weight, you need to be aware of what a serving is.  

 

But...if he has insulin regulation issues, and if he is obese, he probably does, than he is literally starving if he eats "a serving". He's VERY hungry, I promise you, after that amount,and his body will be physically fighting him, pushing him to have more more more more. It's not a matter of willpower, having him eat that is setting him up to fail. He can't help it. 

 

Think of how you feel when you are very thirsty,and if someone says "one sip, no more!". You'd be very unhappy. That's what it probably feels like to him. 

 

Better to just point out how much sugar it has, and stop buying it for anyone than expect him to eat less, or shame him for eating more than a serving. He can't really help it. 

[Guest]

 

I think the Forks over Knives people & the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine would disagree.

Respectfully, in treating juvenile weight issues they're complete idiots and the evidence we have from clinic AND controlled trials strongly supports higher fat, moderate protein, lower carb plans as superior in addressing these particular weight issues in this population.

 

And anecdotally? I can tell you really quick whether a glass of orange juice and a large, colorful, oil dressed salad filled me up more as an obese fifteen year old compared to a small steak. It was literally no contest.

[kiana]

If there is something specific that you can see that he absolutely cannot control his portion size on, you really need to not buy it. It doesn't matter whether it's due to boredom, cravings, carbs, or anything else, he needs to not have that temptation in front of him. Maybe later he can phase it back in.

 

I would never, ever, ever have been able to lose weight, had I not completely banned items such as potato chips, cookies, and popcorn from my place. I simply cannot make myself eat a few chips and shut the bag. I will not stop until the bag is empty. 

[Scarlett]

But Scarlett, cereal is junk! It isn't filling and lacks nutritional density for the calories. Terrible choice for someone who needs to control their weight and hunger. Two eggs, a slice of toast, and some celery and peanut butter is a much better breakfast. If he is in a hurry then do a cup of cottage cheese and a tablespoon jam - these are both higher in sugar than some of us can tolerate but WORLDS better for a growing boy who is fighting his appetite than cereal.

 

This is why I'm begging you to grab him a solid book on the subject, read through it, and have him read through it next. Even my metabolically healthy and normal weight husband and kids cannot be full on a single bowl of cereal and milk. The TODDLER goes for seconds, along with two hardboiled eggs and a tangerine. This is basic stuff and totally controllable. A bowl of oatmeal with cream, cinnmon, and butter is even a better choice than the highest quality cereal at Trader Joe's I can think of.

 

If the poor kid is already fat, already fighting hunger AND emotional eating, cereal and sandwiches and chips and rice and apples and energy drinks and anything else in the same vein of starch, sugar, or general junk are absolutely the worst choices to have in the house. They are all very difficult to self regulate - yes, even the stupid apple - if you fight your blood sugar and cravings. This is something someone who has a healthy metabolism and body mass isn't really going to understand, because their body will react inherently differently to this food input than the obese, sick person.

 

 

I know all of this and the house is full of good choices.  Cereal is not always in the house, but shredded wheat is not junk to me.  There is also eggs, Plain Greek yogurt, fruit, peanut butter. Oatmeal.   He is 15 1/2....I am not going to force him to eat what I want him to eat.  

[Scarlett]

If there is something specific that you can see that he absolutely cannot control his portion size on, you really need to not buy it. It doesn't matter whether it's due to boredom, cravings, carbs, or anything else, he needs to not have that temptation in front of him. Maybe later he can phase it back in.

 

I would never, ever, ever have been able to lose weight, had I not completely banned items such as potato chips, cookies, and popcorn from my place. I simply cannot make myself eat a few chips and shut the bag. I will not stop until the bag is empty. 

 

 

Well, this is true for me as well.  My weakness is chips.  I probably should stop buying cereal ever.

 

Ice cream is another weakness......ugh.  But I hate to not buy ice cream when my ds loves it and he has no weight problem.

[ktgrok]

I know all of this and the house is full of good choices.  Cereal is not always in the house, but shredded wheat is not junk to me.  There is also eggs, Plain Greek yogurt, fruit, peanut butter. Oatmeal.   He is 15 1/2....I am not going to force him to eat what I want him to eat.  

 

Then you need to not judge him when he eats it. Seriously. It's like bringing booze into a home with an alcoholic, then acting surprised when they pick the beer over the seltzer. 

[hornblower]

We could probably at least agree on low glycemic index :)

 

But I don't think very low fat is a great idea for growing teens. So although I know there is evidence to support a very low fat (less than 10 percent) diet (generally vegan) for weight loss, I don't know if that is appropriate for growing brains. 

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Speaking of the low glycemic index guy: 

 

 

Why the man who brought us the glycemic index wants us to go vegan

 

 

 

My kids grew up veg*n.  Whole foods, plant based doesn't have to be ultra low fat.  I'm saying one way can be to: ditch the animal fat, ditch daily meats, ditch daily dairy.

Replace with legumes, complex carbs, veg, fruit + small amount of  seeds/nuts.  

 

Btw, the Happy Herbivore (aka Meal Mentor) came up with her meal plans specifically because she didn't actually lose all the weight she needed to eating wfpb. She needed caloric restriction as well.  So do I. 

[kiana]

Well, this is true for me as well.  My weakness is chips.  I probably should stop buying cereal ever.

 

Ice cream is another weakness......ugh.  But I hate to not buy ice cream when my ds loves it and he has no weight problem.

 

Not never. Just only occasionally, for a special treat, and in a single-serving container. 

 

The cost per unit really got to me, until I realized that by buying the family size bag for $3 instead of the single-serving bag for 50c, I was not really saving any money, because buying the larger bag just meant that I was going to eat $3 worth of potato chips instead of 50c. 

[ktgrok]

 

 

Speaking of the low glycemic index guy: 

 

 

Why the man who brought us the glycemic index wants us to go vegan

 

 

My kids grew up veg*n.  Whole foods, plant based doesn't have to be ultra low fat.  I'm saying one way can be to: ditch the animal fat, ditch daily meats, ditch daily dairy.

Replace with legumes, complex carbs, veg, fruit + small amount of  seeds/nuts.  

 

Btw, the Happy Herbivore (aka Meal Mentor) came up with her meal plans specifically because she didn't actually lose all the weight she needed to eating wfpb. She needed caloric restriction as well.  So do I. 

 

Ok, but I don't know of any evidence on the morbidly obese doing well on a carb heavy diet that isn't also low fat. Normal people? Sure, absolutely. Know tons of them. But morbidly obese? The only evidence I've seen that does well for them is either VERY low fat, or low carb.