Wow..another look at the whole gay cake baker idea

[Slartibartfast]

I can quote you a lot of proscriptions against homosexuality, but you aren't really asking. It isn't about the cake. They could have picked up a generic cake at the desk if they just wanted a cake.

People could have just sat in the back of the bus too.

[Crimson Wife]

I'm all for gently reasoning, but when that (inevitably) doesn't work out, calling out homophobic bigotry is absolutely essential. 

 

I mean, asking people to not call out hateful bigotry is akin to saying "if you see someone being raped, reason with the rapist to get him to stop and then politely demur if he doesn't."  BS.  Some things need to be named. 

 

Wow, are you seriously equating rape with saying something you consider offensive? Wow, they're not even in the same UNIVERSE in terms of negative effects on the victim.

 

Women can and do die or suffer permanent injuries as a result of rape. They can contract incurable and potentially fatal diseases. They can become pregnant.

 

If somebody says something offensive, it might hurt emotionally but there is no actual physical damage.

[MercyA]

I agree.  I just think Mercy is a kind person, so I only wanted to defend her intentions.  I'm sorry if I should have stayed out of it.  These conversations are hard for me, maybe not for anyone else.   :)  I feel like I fumble a lot. 

 

I really appreciate that, Greta. Yes, my comment was thoughtless and unkind, and I had no idea it was something that had been in the news. 

 

These are hard conversations for me because I know I am offending people I consider friends. At the same time I feel a responsibility to not misrepresent Christ or His Word. And, yes, I fumble. Often.  :o

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Wow, are you seriously equating rape with saying something you consider offensive? Wow, they're not even in the same UNIVERSE in terms of negative effects on the victim.

 

Women can and do die or suffer permanent injuries as a result of rape. They can contract incurable and potentially fatal diseases. They can become pregnant.

 

If somebody says something offensive, it might hurt emotionally but there is no actual physical damage.

 

Homophobic bigotry has killed a lot of people. I can't figure how you are unaware of it.

[MercyA]

Nothing wrong with realizing an initial opinion may need more thought. I hugely admire you for that, and being willing to give it another look. That's awesome, no matter what you end up believing about it. 

 

Thanks, Katie. I appreciate that. I have been wrong enough times that I am always willing to reexamine, while keeping Scripture in mind.

 

So. I posed the cake question to my Bible study group tonight. I think everyone who offered their opinion said they would make the cake and told me why. There were a variety of reasons, most having to do with showing love. My father said that he would let the customer know that although he did not condone their choices, he would make them the best cake he possibly could. My husband said much the same.

 

My original concern was keeping a clear conscience in not giving tacit approval to the marriage. If I gently said something like, "My conscience compels me to tell you that as a Christian, I do not agree with homosexual marriage. However, I would be happy to make you a cake," I would avoid that problem. There would be no tacit approval and no doubt where I personally stood, but I could still serve them and show them love by doing a good job on their cake. I wouldn't argue with them or bring it up again unless they were interested in the conversation.

 

No doubt many people would rather I just be quiet, but this is the best solution I am comfortable with right now. 

 

If other conservative Christians think I am wrong in this, I am open to correction from Scripture.

[Crimson Wife]

Homophobic bigotry has killed a lot of people. I can't figure how you are unaware of it.

 

I'm not talking about violence. I'm talking about WORDS. Big difference. One is protected by the First Amendment. The other is a criminal action.

 

Everyone deserves to be physically safe. There is no corresponding right to have your feelings protected from any hurt.

 

[Crimson Wife]

Even with libel, which is illegal if proven in court, there has to be a demonstrated falsehood rather than just a difference of opinion.

[ktgrok]

Thanks, Katie. I appreciate that. I have been wrong enough times that I am always willing to reexamine, while keeping Scripture in mind.

 

So. I posed the cake question to my Bible study group tonight. I think everyone who offered their opinion said they would make the cake and told me why. There were a variety of reasons, most having to do with showing love. My father said that he would let the customer know that although he did not condone their choices, he would make them the best cake he possibly could. My husband said much the same.

 

My original concern was keeping a clear conscience in not giving tacit approval to the marriage. If I gently said something like, "My conscience compels me to tell you that as a Christian, I do not agree with homosexual marriage. However, I would be happy to make you a cake," I would avoid that problem. There would be no tacit approval and no doubt where I personally stood, but I could still serve them and show them love by doing a good job on their cake. I wouldn't argue with them or bring it up again unless they were interested in the conversation.

 

No doubt many people would rather I just be quiet, but this is the best solution I am comfortable with right now. 

 

If other conservative Christians think I am wrong in this, I am open to correction from Scripture.

 

I can see that as a reasonable way to deal with the situation. 

[MercyA]

I'm glad that Christians expect to suffer the consequences of their illegal actions. If they are so ready to do that, then, why is this even a matter of discussion? You break the law, you suffer the consequences. The end.

 

As for the persecution of the LGBT community by certain flavors of Christians, this I confess I will never understand. You say you do it out of love, is that it? You judge people to be immoral because of the way they were born, your views encourage horrible, vicious discrimination. Many in the LGBT community have been murdered, many, many more are tormented and bullied until they take their own lives. Where is the godliness in that? How do Christians justify the torment and death of innocent people who are just being who your God apparently created them? Discriminating against anyone in the LGBT community just spreads the hatred and the unhappiness and the death and you are complicit in that Here. Now. In THIS life. How is that holy? How is that good?

 

I didn't say all Christians do expect to suffer the consequences of their actions. I said they should. 

 

If people are cruel, if they are unkind, if they are vicious, if they torment or bully or murder, that is all contrary to New Testament teaching. 

 

I don't just believe but know that Christ is an actual living Person, and I can't mold Him or make Him into what I want Him to be. Like everyone else, I was born with tendencies towards particular sins. That doesn't mean I am not responsible, as a Christian, to live by the standards set out in Scripture.

 

That said, those standards are not, generally speaking, something I would just bring up in conversation with people outside of the church, unless they ask what I believe about Biblical requirements for Christians or ask me to participate in something I consider to be immoral. I mentioned 1 Corinthians 5 earlier:  "For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church?  But those who are outside, God judges." If someone wants to join our local body of believers, then it would be an issue that would need to be addressed.

 

I understand that this is offensive to you, and I am sorry for that.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

I'm not talking about violence. I'm talking about WORDS. Big difference. One is protected by the First Amendment. The other is a criminal action.

 

Everyone deserves to be physically safe. There is no corresponding right to have your feelings protected from any hurt.

 

 

Words create an atmosphere that leads to violence.  Which is why it is smart to call out those "words".  And FWIW, those "words" have lead to many suicides, especially among teens.

 

And not all "words" are protected by the 1st Amendment.

[Lawana]

I'm not talking about violence. I'm talking about WORDS. Big difference. One is protected by the First Amendment. The other is a criminal action.

 

Everyone deserves to be physically safe. There is no corresponding right to have your feelings protected from any hurt.

 

Sometimes the violence takes the form of suicide. Sometimes, a young gay person has heard words over and over again that convinces them that something is fundamentally wrong with them because they are fundamentally different from others who more nearly match a presented ideal. Often that ideal comes from religion. No one has beaten that youth. No one has has been physically aggressive. And yet the power of words convinces that youth that there is no hope for them because despite any and all attempts at matching the ideal, they know they are different.

 

Words matter.

[MercyA]

lol, to hear a follower of Christ argue so strenuously for the ability to discriminate against her fellow man, makes me think that everything good I was ever taught about Jesus as a child must have been terribly, terribly wrong. 

 

I am so sorry you feel that way. This post was the reason I brought up the question at my Bible study tonight. 

 

I know you are an atheist, but the way I understand things boils down to this: Jesus is both loving and holy. He expects His followers to likewise be both loving and holy. With issues like these, sometimes we have to work through how to best to accomplish that, according to our understanding of Scripture. 

 

I am sorry for causing offense.

Edited October 20, 2016 by MercyA

[Greta]

These are hard conversations for me because I know I am offending people I consider friends. At the same time I feel a responsibility to not misrepresent Christ or His Word. And, yes, I fumble. Often. :o

:grouphug: No more often than the rest of us. :) Or perhaps I should only speak for myself - you certainly fumble far less often than I do! :D Edited October 20, 2016 by Greta

[momacacia]

The cake baker cannot refuse to sell a cake to someone because they are, say, Muslim. They could refuse to write Arabic calligraphy on the cake. For another example, the cake baker cannot refuse to bake a cake for a couple because they are gay. They can, however, refuse to decorate a cake with a gay pride rainbow or same-gender toppers.

 

Arguably, the wedding singer cannot turn down a wedding just because the individuals marrying are of a different religion or are same-gender. They can, however, refuse to sing Lady Gaga or Village People songs. Or the Macarena, but I'm not sure you could stay in business as a wedding singer without the Macarena.

Yeah, and I think at some point, obviously, it's going to need constitutional interpretation and my first amendment law is very rusty. I'm pretty sure though, most wedding singers don't see a lot of Macarena. DJs, yes, singers, no. Lol.

 

In the case of the cake, they are asking for a wedding cake...I'm assuming, not just a chocolate birthday cake. And, usually wedding cake designers also delivery cakes to the wedding reception. Most wedding cake purchasers aren't saying "meh, just bake us any old cake and we'll pick it up."

 

Usually the customer is saying "bake me a cake that communicates wedding cake to most people in our community and delivery to our wedding reception location." It's not that they're baking a cake for a gay person as a customer, the customer frankly could be a married heterosexual individual for all we know. The issue is that they're being asked to particiate, with their artistic abilitie, in a ceremony and celebration of an activity which their religious beliefs preclude them from condoning.

[Crimson Wife]

Words create an atmosphere that leads to violence.  Which is why it is smart to call out those "words".  And FWIW, those "words" have lead to many suicides, especially among teens.

 

And not all "words" are protected by the 1st Amendment.

 

Violence is wrong, plain and simple. But it's nonsense to blame rhetoric for evil people's violent actions. The criminal is the one responsible for his/her misdeeds, not someone else's words. It's not like hearing someone saying something forced the criminal to hurt another person. The criminal was the one who CHOSE his/her evil actions.

 

Suicide is a mental health issue and we need to make sure people who are hurting emotionally can access the help they require in order to cope with their emotional pain. The solution isn't censorship but expanded mental health treatment.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Violence is wrong, plain and simple. But it's nonsense to blame rhetoric for evil people's violent actions. The criminal is the one responsible for his/her misdeeds, not someone else's words. It's not like hearing someone saying something forced the criminal to hurt another person. The criminal was the one who CHOSE his/her evil actions.

 

Suicide is a mental health issue and we need to make sure people who are hurting emotionally can access the help they require in order to cope with their emotional pain. The solution isn't censorship but expanded mental health treatment.

 

Wow.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Yeah, and I think at some point, obviously, it's going to need constitutional interpretation and my first amendment law is very rusty. I'm pretty sure though, most wedding singers don't see a lot of Macarena. DJs, yes, singers, no. Lol.

 

In the case of the cake, they are asking for a wedding cake...I'm assuming, not just a chocolate birthday cake. And, usually wedding cake designers also delivery cakes to the wedding reception. Most wedding cake purchasers aren't saying "meh, just bake us any old cake and we'll pick it up."

 

Usually the customer is saying "bake me a cake that communicates wedding cake to most people in our community and delivery to our wedding reception location." It's not that they're baking a cake for a gay person as a customer, the customer frankly could be a married heterosexual individual for all we know. The issue is that they're being asked to particiate, with their artistic abilitie, in a ceremony and celebration of an activity which their religious beliefs preclude them from condoning.

 

Delivery /= participation.  You know what it is?  A delivery.

 

And from a legal standpoint, they are simply baking a cake for a customer.  It is a special cake, but still just flour, eggs, sugar and the like.

[MrsMommy]

Here is what I don't understand. If you are a Christian baker who does not believe gay marriage is actually marriage, then according to your beliefs, you're not baking a wedding cake...you're baking a cake for (in your opinion) a non-event. What's the problem, then?

[Janeway]

I once went to a salon to get my eyebrows threaded. It was in a plaza with many South Asian food and clothing businesses. The window had a sign that said no men were allowed inside, presumably because Muslim women might be there getting their haircut. Are they violating public accomdation laws? My DH had to wait outside for me.

with the bakery ruling as a precedence, yes, they would be in violation. Edited October 20, 2016 by Janeway

[fraidycat]

Violence is wrong, plain and simple. But it's nonsense to blame rhetoric for evil people's violent actions. The criminal is the one responsible for his/her misdeeds, not someone else's words. It's not like hearing someone saying something forced the criminal to hurt another person. The criminal was the one who CHOSE his/her evil actions.

 

Suicide is a mental health issue and we need to make sure people who are hurting emotionally can access the help they require in order to cope with their emotional pain. The solution isn't censorship but expanded mental health treatment.

This is just all kinds of wrong.

 

FYI: There are laws against inciting violence, which is...you know - "just words". Or rhetoric, if that pleases you. It is a punishable offense.

 

As is falsely yelling 'Fire' in a crowded public area. Again, it's just a word. But the effects can be devastating and a person can be charged and convicted of a crime.

 

Words absolutely matter. To pretend otherwise is, to put it kindly, disingenuous. You're better than that.

 

And the bolded part? If bigots were 'censored', there'd not BE emotional pain for many LGBT persons. Alas, public accomodation law has nothing to do with censorship, so it's just a red herring in this discussion.

Edited October 20, 2016 by fraidycat

[Liz CA]

Well as it turns out, the bolded has not always been legal.

 

But it is legal now and has been legal for a while? I am not being snarky but I am wondering if it is legal now, can any business owner  decide they refuse service to someone? Now, one can argue that it would not be good for business but as the owner of a business is the right to refuse to serve someone a business owner's right?

 

 

Edited October 20, 2016 by Liz CA

[Slartibartfast]

I guess the man would have to call because they wouldn't want him inside making the appointment. What if they said, "No, we don't allow any men."

 

 

Why don't you call and ask them? I don't even know the salon in question. 

[KungFuPanda]

I think last time this topic came up someone told me they were a photographer who wouldn't do gay weddings but had no problem with doing weddings for divorced people and that she and/or her partner were divorced. That's when I knew there was absolutely no point to this conversation, unfortunately. People will do any mental gymnastics necessary to justify themselves and/or their behavior. As a poster upthread said, the lack of consistency just makes it look like many Christian hate gays and that is most definitely the sense I get from them.

Exactly. Can't bake a gay cake, but CAN endorse a presidential candidate on his third wife. It makes perfect business sense if you consider the number of wedding cakes you can sell to the same guy.

 

I always wonder where people live who have no gay folks in their wedding industries.

[Susan Wise Bauer]

I think this has been thoroughly hashed out.

 

SWB