Is it too early to change Math curriculum?

[kentuckymom]

We're on day 3 of homeschooling, and Saxon 8/7 is already frustrating both of us. We skipped ahead to lesson 7 today and it was still review and quite easy for Squirrelboy. Before you ask, yes, he took a placement test and this is the level he tested into.

 

He's gotten all the questions right on the lesson practices he's done.

 

He did make quite a few mistakes on the mixed practice yesterday, but they were all simple computational mistakes, I think mostly because he had a bad attitude about doing 30 problems he knew how to do and took shortcuts that led to mistakes.

 

I looked at Math Mammoth over the summer and seriously considered getting it, but I decided all the review in Saxon could be good for him and boost his confidence. Now I'm kind of regretting my decision, but I don't want to buy something new that won't actually be better.

 

Should we press on with Saxon for at least a few weeks and see if it gets better, or should we just order something new this weekend and start fresh?

[Jackie]

The amount of review in Saxon would drive both my daughter and I bonkers. However, if you think the program could still be a good fit, how about jumping ahead by a full 4-6 weeks worth of lessons and seeing what happens when you start there?

[OneStepAtATime]

Agree, since you already bought it maybe jump ahead quite a bit and see how it goes. What did he use before? If leaping ahead doesn't work he may need something more conceptual and mastery based.

[Tiramisu]

Test forward to find the right spot in the book to start?

 

But I'll share what someone here told me, Saxon isn't really supposed to be challenging. It's supposed to slowly build fluency.

Edited August 12, 2016 by Tiramisu

[Hunter]

Saxon lessons are meant to be all correct. A good portion of the problems are review. If a student has to do that many problems and is working at the frustration level, it is torture.

 

Saxon is like practicing a musical instrument. You hope that the practice results in a flawless practice session. Perfection is the goal.

 

Now not everyone wants to learn to play an instrument or to be flawless at math. Some people want to do the least possible in math and really don't care if they are flawless in any it or just certain parts of it.

 

If *I* am going to tackle advanced math with a student that needs to be taught and isn't teaching themselves, Saxon is the only program *I* can teach at the advanced math and calculus level. If I'm teaching, the student is just going to have to suck it up and submit. If the student has access to another teacher or has proven to be able to self-teach, we can explore other options.

 

I can teach through the algebra 1 level with scraps. After that I can't. If I don't think a student is going past Algebra, I prefer scraps. Scraps are often cheaper and less bulky to store, and take less time to teach. I think I would rather have a needle stuck in my eye than be the person responsible to get another kid through advanced math. I'm not ever doing that again unless I love someone very very much and there is no other alternative.

 

If I knew I were going to go all the way with a student, I would have to start Saxon in Algebra 1 or a year before, depending on the edition. The old 2nd edition that I have taught to multiple student has a long review at the beginning and it doesn't matter what was used before.

[kentuckymom]

Thanks for the tips so far! We may try skipping even further ahead on Monday and see how it goes.

[Soror]

Much to my surprise Saxon is working really well with my oldest daughter. It would have been terrible for him but for all the reasons it works good for her.

 

I think sometimes it is good to go ahead and switch if it isn't working but maybe think about why it isn't working. Will moving ahead solve the problem? Or is it too incremental? You don't have to do all the review either, despite the die-hards that insist otherwise you're still the parent and can use the program how you see fit and works for you.

 

Personally I think MM is be a worse fit for ds than Saxon would be b/c it is Mastery and the lay-out fries my brain. When we've used it - I own 1-3 and tried it again for 4th and 6th we never last very long it has a ton of problems too and to me it was harder to condense due to it being mastery.

 

Edited August 12, 2016 by soror

[BusyMom5]

We only do part of the problems, especially at the beginning.  Why not do 10 problems from 2 lessons each day until you see a place he needs more practice.  I like to have mine do 15-20 problems per day, either from one lesson if it's new, 2 if it's still review.  This gives lots of review, but my kids feel like they are getting out of work b/c I cross so many out :)  Doing evens or odds still gives enough practice for my kids without math being hours long.

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I have done 8/7  and Algebra 1/2.  If your child needs more arithmetic review, 8/7 is probably a safer choice, but it's a LONG book.  If he has arithmetic down, Al 1/2 was much quicker and lighter.  I am currently on Kid2 doing 7/6, and so far, so good!  The one that does well w/ Saxon hates MM!  Seriously it's overkill and hurts her head!  I have younger kids doing MM with no problem.  I'm not opposed to changing to whatever works best for my kids, but I'd try tweaking Saxon before moving to another program.

[ZeldaRules]

The first 30 lessons of Saxon tend to be on the easier side, then it gets more challenging. It is not recommended to skip lessons and the program recommends you not skip problems either. My 12 yo is doing 8/7. He was getting too many wrong half way through, so I have him do one lesson over two days. Well that and he just takes forever to do the math lesson sometimes. He got problems wrong because he was being careless, not because he didn't know how to do the problem. Or as the process gets more complex, he forgets how to do something, and I relearn it right with him and sometimes I forget too. ;). 8/7 will definitely get more challenging. I think Saxon is a great program. I've stuck with Saxon from the beginning and it works for us. ;)

[...................]

Why did you choose Saxon? Sometimes knowing what your thought process was going into it helps others think through it with you.

 

Saxon really works for my son. Yeah he doesn't like it but he really needs the repetition. The clarity of the program minimized fighting between us, and the no nonsense

Approach and solutions manual appeals to us. We really need it all spelled out.

 

My dd would probably freeze solid if she had to do Saxon every day. She's not necessarily smarter, she just doesn't need all that review and can't handle the black and white pages. She's more patient when im confused and even though she can be a Drama queen she doesn't expect perfection from me so working through a less clear cut program and TE is fine.

 

All these types of variables play into what you use.

[Ellie]

We're on day 3 of homeschooling, and Saxon 8/7 is already frustrating both of us. We skipped ahead to lesson 7 today and it was still review and quite easy for Squirrelboy. Before you ask, yes, he took a placement test and this is the level he tested into.

 

He's gotten all the questions right on the lesson practices he's done.

 

He did make quite a few mistakes on the mixed practice yesterday, but they were all simple computational mistakes, I think mostly because he had a bad attitude about doing 30 problems he knew how to do and took shortcuts that led to mistakes.

 

I looked at Math Mammoth over the summer and seriously considered getting it, but I decided all the review in Saxon could be good for him and boost his confidence. Now I'm kind of regretting my decision, but I don't want to buy something new that won't actually be better.

 

Should we press on with Saxon for at least a few weeks and see if it gets better, or should we just order something new this weekend and start fresh?

 

You could have him just do the tests, one a day like a lesson, until he cannot pass with an 80% or higher. Then you go five chapters back from there and do the lessons (the tests tell you which lessons they cover).

 

And he should work on the bad attitude about 30 problems. That's nothing. Really. :-) So you might press on just because of that, KWIM?

[blondeviolin]

TBH, we skip half the problems in the mixed practice. Even SWB says it's okay to skip. If it being review is a problem, give the tests until it's not too easy. My oldest likes easy so this works. :lol:

[gratitude]

 

How did he do on the placement test?  Did he almost pass out of 8/7?  If he had 70% on the placement to almost pass out of 8/7, for example, then 30% of the book is what he does not know and 70% is what he does know.  You might want to look at the table of contents to see what he needs from 8/7, based on what he didn't know on the placement test, and focus on those parts.  He may not need the entire book.  If though he only scored 30% on the placement test to go out of 8/7 I would do the whole book. 

 

If they can score 80% or higher in 8/7 on the tests and assignments the Saxon web-site says they can skip Algebra 1/2 and go into Algebra I (this is assuming you are doing the current 8/7 edition with Pre-Algebra in it; this is not true if you are using an early edition).

 

Is he getting at least 80% correct?  You said he was making some computation mistakes.  If he is scoring below 80% with computation mistakes he actually needs the practice to learn how to do the problems without computation mistakes.  (In my house it is below 90% that I assume kids need the practice).

 

In Saxon the mixed practice matters as much as the new lesson practice since it is the spiral method.  If he is getting the new lesson, but missing a lot in the spiral review then he just needs more practice in learning how to do 30 problems.  30 problems doesn't seem like too many to me to master math, but I enjoyed math in school and college so maybe that is an odd perspective.  We did at least 30 problems, and if I remember correctly far more then 30.

 

I agree with the others he could test up.  Give the tests until he reaches one where he doesn't know any of the material.  If I remember correctly the first 20 lessons or so in 8/7 were easier.  The only thing to watch for is the tests tend to be easier then the lessons.  Pay attention to what he doesn't know and focus on what he needs to learn.  You may not actually need the entire book.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ellie]

TBH, we skip half the problems in the mixed practice. Even SWB says it's okay to skip. If it being review is a problem, give the tests until it's not too easy. My oldest likes easy so this works. :lol:

 

With all due respect, SWB is not an expert on the Saxon methodology. :-)

 

Every.single.problem is in each lesson for a reason. Even if it seems to be "review," it is developing a concept, presenting something in a slightly different way, necessary. 

This is what former WTM member Janet in WA said:

One of the ingenious things about Saxon's problem sets that even my sons noticed (when they didn't skip every other problem) was that often consecutive problems are related in a way that furthers the student's understanding of the way different math concepts relate (which is one of the underappreciated aspects of Saxon's incremental design, in my opinion). For example, a series of problems may all have the exact same answer, just arrived at by different but related processes. Or perhaps there will be 3 consecutive problems that amount to the same thing -- one might be a fraction problem, the next a decimal problem, and finally a percent problem -- all representing the same mathematical relationship (say 3/100, .03 and 3%). If you skip problems, your child misses this learning device.

 

And this:

 

You will get many different answers to this question. There are many here on the boards who only give the odds or evens out...the PROBLEM with this is that Saxon DOES NOT design their program to be used in this manner (many other texts are designed this way). When you skip problems with Saxon you are setting yourself up for trouble later on...the problem sets do not have ‘evenly spaced’ concepts AND some “concepts†may ‘look’ the same to the untrained parent--BUT each problem is actually teaching/testing in a different area. By routinely skipping problems you are missing out on critical review. In most of the series--7/6 and above the practice problems often DIFFER from the original concept (the one noted by the little number). As the student’s knowledge and experience increases so does their ability to COMBINE concepts. The review problems are often more difficult/complex than the original practice problems.

 

I’m a certified Math teacher--turned homeschool Mother. I have taught/tutored Saxon for over 7 years (1st grade -Advanced Math). The vast majority of the students seeking tutoring in Pre-Algebra and above are those who routinely skipped problems--working only half of the problem set.

 

Skipping problems in the texts below 7/6 MAY work out well for some students as the concepts taught are very basic. From 7/6 on it is very important to work EVERY problem. If the problem set takes ‘too much time’ to do each day most likely the reason is that the student needs MORE practice!!!

 

I have a dd with some learning differences and she has had success working 15-20 problems a day--continuing on the next day without skipping any problems. She completes a little over 3 problem sets a week.

 

Some people are fine with their students making a “B†in math. It is sad that those students could be making “A’s†if only they had used the text the way it was designed!

 

It is probably obvious that I am passionate about this issue. When you choose to use a program such as Saxon that is designed with a complex spiral review it is important to use the program correctly--taking shortcuts will only shortchange your child. There may be other math programs where working only 10-15 problems a day is sufficient--but Saxon is definitely NOT one of them.

[wapiti]

The philosophy underlying Saxon is learning through repetition of procedures.  On the one hand, any program is simply a tool to be used as the parent teacher to fit student's needs.  On the other hand, cutting out lots of the program at least raises the question of whether it's a good fit for a particular student.  Maybe, as altered, it is a good fit nonetheless, or perhaps something else might be more suitable.  The answer will depend on the student, of course.

 

ETA, if you are comparing to MM, for example, that program is coming from a different philosophy of learning.  Might be "better," might not be; it depends on what your student needs.  There are many prealgebra programs to choose from - I'm sure if you describe your student, you'll get lots of thoughts and suggestions.  What math was he using before?

 

ETA again, taking a quick look at your other posts, you have a very bright student, coming from school, needing prealgebra as a 6th grader (Saxon 8/7 is prealgebra and I am assuming that is the level he tested into?).  However, he is dyslexic with possible attention issues (was there testing confirming the dyslexia?  attention?  any weaknesses known via testing with working memory and/or processing speed?  how's handwriting?  vision?).  If he's generally a more visual-spatial learner as many bright dyslexics are, Saxon might bore the snot out of him, as it takes the sequential route to teaching.  In comparison, MM is much better for concept instruction, but still the concepts might be broken out into too many increments - IMO that program may work best when combining several lessons into one for an even bigger big-picture approach.  Plus, some find the pages a little on the crowded side, though I have not seen MM7 prealgebra yet, which is relatively new, so perhaps it's better.  Have you looked at AoPS Prealgebra?  That would be the most big-picture of all the programs I can think of and my most favorite prealgebra in general and especially for a bright VSL.  Whether or not there are idiosyncrasies of fit with aops for your dyslexic would be a longer discussion; some have used it, some have shied away.  Ultimately, there are other choices; I'd look closely at Saxon if repetition is very important for a student, especially if depth is less-accessible for the student, but for a young, bright student with spatial strengths, a big-picture perspective and greater depth may be more suitable.  Aside from AoPS, the next option I'd consider would probably be Dolciani's Prealgebra, An Accelerated Course followed by Jacobs' Elementary Algebra.  You can also ask for suggestions on the Accelerated Learning board.

Edited August 13, 2016 by wapiti

[EKS]

Agreeing with the others who said:

 

Don't just skip lessons--take the tests until your student gets below a certain score and then back up 5-10 lessons and start there.  My cut off score would be 90%.

 

Saxon works best when it is easy.  Your student should be able to move through the review set fairly quickly (one hour or less).  Saxon's strength is in developing fluency--but keep in mind that this strength comes at a price.  Some students who use Saxon never learn what to do when they encounter a math problem that is different or more challenging than what they've see before.  If they don't automatically know what to do, they just shut down.  Other students find the amount of review mind numbing and actually quite painful.

 

Don't skip problems!  Saxon's strength is in all those problems.  When you skip them, Saxon becomes just another mediocre math program.  If you must skip, I recommend that you look for a different program. 

[Carra]

Doing the easy lessons correctly  and fast may build up endurance, and practice to concentrate. I won't skip it. If you are in a exam and everything is easy because you studied really hard, you will be able to just sit and do everything correctly. This is just my opinion.

My DH often says that not making mistakes in  simple things is what makes a difference.

[Carra]

I would supplement with some challenging problems beside the everyday lesson.

[janainaz]

Doing the easy lessons correctly  and fast may build up endurance, and practice to concentrate. I won't skip it. If you are in a exam and everything is easy because you studied really hard, you will be able to just sit and do everything correctly. This is just my opinion.

My DH often says that not making mistakes in  simple things is what makes a difference.

Exactly what this person said is what it's all about.  Both of my DS's understood the concepts very well.  BUT, they need to be trained to not make silly errors and mistakes! Those simple math errors (even though they know those concepts) are what cause issues later on.  Saxon has a very good reason for being repetitive, and I PROMISE YOU, your children will be very challenged when they reach Algebra 1, but especially Alegbra 2.

[Ellie]

I would supplement with some challenging problems beside the everyday lesson.

 

I promise that there is no need to supplement Saxon with anything. :-)

[freelylearned]

To answer the original question, I don't think that it's too early to switch. It's possible that your son had an off day on the placement test and is in a level that is too easy. I think that the idea is testing ahead is wise.

 

But if the problem ends up being the Saxon method is a poor fit for your son, it is better to switch programs sooner than later. I stubbornly stuck with Saxon for a couple month longer than I should have with my son and when I switched to Singapore, we found a math program that really worked with how my son's brain is wired. No sense staying in a sinking ship.

[Carra]

OK Ellie, I will rephrase it  "You could supplement if you want, depending on your goals".

[kentuckymom]

Wow, thanks for all the advice so far.

 

Here's some more info. I'm impressed with the pp who read some other posts to find out more about my son :). Yes, he's coming from school. He's bright and dyslexic and his math experiences in school have been all over the place. In theory his school was using Math in Focus, but it was only used as the primary program when he was in 1st and 2nd grades, and in both cases they only made it about halfway through. From 3rd grade on the teachers mostly used a variety of worksheets from all over the internet and sometimes created their own, doing their best to cover the common core standards for the grade. His math scores ranged from A's all the way down to D's, though they were mostly A's and B's in fifth grade. He was way behind in Math until 3rd grade (he didn't even count to 20 consistently until the summer before 2nd grade), but then his brain suddenly took a big leap and he started to understand all the concepts easily. He's still weak when it comes to remembering details and doing multistep problems without forgetting steps. He still struggles with parts of the multiplication tables, particular 6's and 7's for some reason (he's pretty strong on the ones above and below those two). I have a multiplication chart on the wall that I'm allowing him to use when he needs to and I'm hoping that seeing it all the time might be one way to help cement them in his brain.

 

I chose Saxon first because I thought that a spiral/incremental method might be a good fit because the frequent repetition of concepts would mean that concepts would be less likely to get lost somewhere in his brain. Secondly, I chose it because, when I gave him placement tests in June, the Saxon test didn't make him cry. I tried a CLE placement test first and he got really stressed out and didn't even complete the test. A few days later I gave him the Saxon placement test. He complained a bit, but he got through it relatively easily.

 

In retrospect, I wonder if he was just burned out from school and I should have waited until the end of the summer to try to choose a math program and place him in it. I didn't even try the Math Mammoth test because I didn't want to stress him out again.

 

My plan for this week is to have him slowly work through the Math Mammoth 5th grade end of year test. If he doesn't do well or complains a lot about the format I'll go back to Saxon the following week and have him take the first test (or more if he does really well on that)  and then start from whatever lesson that process indicates. If he passes the 5th grade test with flying colors I'll try the 6th grade one. I could be wrong, but I don't think he's ready for a full fledged prealgebra program yet. I think he could use another year to shore up his arithmetic skills and maybe dip his toes a little bit into prealgebra, which is what Saxon 8/7 seems to do.

[Kat w]

Oh Saxon math is very frustrating . there are tok many choices...good choices these days to stay with a curriculum thst you both hate.

 

We had more days in tears over Saxon than I care to remember :)

Switch is my vote. Never stay with something that makes you miserable. Steals your joy :)

[Kat w]

I read your previous post, my son is dyslexic too. Sometimes dycalcuia ( math) will go along with that. You could give him the Singapore math placement test.

 

Alot of dyslexics are very bright. He will probably surprise you what he can do.

Singapore (reg) theres standards and u.s. editions . one has more review. They are very systematic and orderly which dyslexics thrive on. It teaches you math frontwards backwards laterally . it's an amazing program.

 

Couldn't hurt to try. I've never used or looked for s placement test for them. But I'm sure they have one.

 

We are all over the place fill-in in holes from PS.

 

You'll get there mama :) homeschooling perfect for dyslexics, we can tailor the curriculum to them :)

Edited August 15, 2016 by Kat w

[Kat w]

Agreeing with the others who said:

 

Don't just skip lessons--take the tests until your student gets below a certain score and then back up 5-10 lessons and start there. My cut off score would be 90%.

 

Saxon works best when it is easy. Your student should be able to move through the review set fairly quickly (one hour or less). Saxon's strength is in developing fluency--but keep in mind that this strength comes at a price. Some students who use Saxon never learn what to do when they encounter a math problem that is different or more challenging than what they've see before. If they don't automatically know what to do, they just shut down. Other students find the amount of review mind numbing and actually quite painful.

 

Don't skip problems! Saxon's strength is in all those problems. When you skip them, Saxon becomes just another mediocre math program. If you must skip, I recommend that you look for a different program.

That's exactly the mistake I made with Saxon.

 

I just prefer Singapore now.

EKS is right. Saxon you can't skip problems. I did, and was big mistake.

 

I love singap math now. And my dyslexic son does so well with it.

Edited August 15, 2016 by Kat w

[Tanikit]

I could not use Saxon with my eldest child - it would drive us both crazy. If I had bought it I may try a few lessons further on, but in the end I know I would drop it and switch to something else. I imagine that my youngest child might like Saxon and do well with it, but if I used it with her I would have to stay out the way and let her do it alone because again, it would drive me crazy. But that is just me - I know it works really well for some families - teachers and children.