Gifted Quirks/Social Issues or Possible Autism?

[JennSnow]

Hi everyone 

Okay..so this is the first time I'm really expressing these concerns out loud to anyone other than my husband and my sister. I apologize in advance because I'm sure this will get long and I really appreciate if you take the time to read this and chime in :).

I've been having some concerns about my recently turned four year old (turned 4 in January).  Ds4 has always been a particular, sensitive, clingy, quirky kind kid..but so was my older son (now 14).  Every time some new quirk or red flag pops up I usually rationalize or dismiss it figuring it's just some new toddler/preschooler quirk..after all, toddlers and preschoolers are by nature kind of random and weird, lol.  Lately I've been getting more concerned about a few things..especially his social struggles and I've been contemplating where to go from here.  I've been contemplating having him evaluated but thought I might run this by you all to see if anyone has dealt with something similar in their gifted kids.

I guess, first off, here are the things that always make me rationalize and dismiss his behaviors as still being in the "typical" range ..

 

• he's a very bright kid..he has excellent visual spatial skills..he's been a whiz with puzzles since he was very small (could do 12-24 piece jigsaw puzzles before he turned 1), and excels at visual spatial games which challenge adults (Q-Bitz for example is a game for players 8 and up but he could easily play it when he was 3). He was an early reader and currently reads on a 1st grade level, is great with numbers..he spends a lot of time counting as high as he can forwards, backwards, by 5's and 10's, can add and subtract, tell time on an analog clock, etc.., he seems to have an intense need to always be "creating" something..he started taking piano lessons recently and is really excelling, he can remember songs and figure out how to play them without any help, he writes his own original compositions, he writes me stories about the solar system, he could write letters and draw discernable people and objects by 1 1/2 years old

•  he hit all of his milestones on time/ahead of the curve; smiling, rolling over, crawling, walking, talking, laughing, pointing, clapping, waving, ect..
•  his language skills are great..he has a large vocabulary, he asks and answers who, what, why questions and doesn't speak in a monotone manner-
•  he exhibits joint attention
•  he's structured but is usually okay with change  
•  he's affectionate (not with everyone but with those he is close with)
•  he makes eye contact
•  he "gets" humor
•  he plays imaginatively

Now..here are the red flags..

• he has ZERO interest in engaging with children his own age..he'll actually go out of his way to avoid interaction (he does, however, socialize fine with older children and adults).  I asked him today why he didn't want to play with some of the other children at the playground and his answer was, "Because they are annoying."
• he seems to have a photographic visual (and possibly auditory) memory..the game "QBitz" for example has 120 cards each with a different pattern..we realized at one point that he had them ALL memorized..we could show him any card and he could tell us it's number.  He did this with several other games..he memorized all 80 patterned cards in "QBitz Extreme" and the 100 patterned cards in the game "Color Code", etc..
• he still has separation anxiety
• he always has some type of intense, all encompassing obsession going on..when he was little it was fans, then waterfalls, then garage doors (just the door)..from the time he was 3 until he turned 4 it was space..everything all day everyday revolved around the solar system, for awhile it was the "QBitz" game, right now it's classical music and numbers (dates, birthdays, phone numbers, time, etc..)
• he has some mild obsessive compulsive behaviors..things like needing to rub and tap the front door in a certain pattern before he opens it
• he seems to have an intense need to put and keep things in order if they are numbered (decks of cards, etc...)
• he carries on normal back and forth conversation at home but with others he "scripts" quite a bit..he'll memorize parts of shows and  repeat them back word for word in replacement of actual conversation
• he will hit himself when he is angry or frustrated

 

I think that's mostly it.  To be honest, it's the complete lack of interest in his peers which worries me most.  The plan was to homeschool him as I have my older son but now I'm debating preschool for next year..just to try and get him to separate a bit and maybe engage with kids his own age.  Part of me thinks it would be a good idea and the other part thinks it will likely be a well intentioned disaster.  My older son was quirky but was always incredibly social.  I could take him to playdates and he'd jump right in and play .  He's always had friends and been well liked.  

I guess I just don't know if I'm overthinking and overworrying and this is all just typical kid stuff or if I should push to have him evaluated.  Some days I think he's fine and I'm crazy for thinking otherwise and some days I think I'm just in denial.  Thanks for letting me vent...any feedback would be much appreciated! :) 

Thank you!

Edited May 7, 2016 by JennSnow

[Tanaqui]

That's a toughie, and I definitely don't have THE answer for you, so let me take apart a few big things I see.

 

1. You state that your older son was also "quirky". This does point towards both your kids being neurodiverse (that is, non-typical), as these things do tend to run in families. It also does suggest that possibly your idea of what is normal is skewed... especially if, as is common, many people in your family have some of these traits and you do as well. (For example, and I skipped this on the first read, I'd move "good with puzzles" down to evidence for autism, not against, and likewise with "early reader" if he was really a VERY early reader. Google "hyperlexia" if you like.)

 

2. The pointing and eye contact are big ones. Because you say he did both those things normally at the normal time, I personally am not jumping to autism as an answer, although it still could be. Autistics vary considerably. (With regards to eye contact in particular, some autistics have trouble in the opposite direction, and make too much eye contact where it's not appropriate.)

 

3. However, the scripted language and the interest in fans and garage doors are also biggies. Those are things that would strike me as unusual in an NT child.

 

4. The introversion, not so much. Lots of autistics are extroverted. Lots of NTs aren't. More trouble with social skills does not necessarily mean a lack of interest in socializing (well, until and unless we've been burned so many times that we give up).

 

So, with all that said, I'm gonna say what I usually say - it does absolutely no harm to get your child evaluated, and better sooner than later. However, I would suggest you keep an open mind and consider the possibility that it's not autism but something else. OCD traits, for example, could point to, well, OCD. Or he could be within the normal range after all. Or there could be a host of other conditions that explain your kid, include something "Not Otherwise Specified". I'm not reading your list and saying "Wow, your kid is so obviously on the spectrum, how did you not see it?" but I'm also not reading it going "No way this is autism, gotta be something else" or "That kid is super normal, mom is nuts". So a full evaluation would either tell you what the deal is, or put your mind completely at ease. Don't delay on this one - worry is no good for moms and dads!

 

One thing - not all preschools are equally good socially. Given that you already have concerns, I would carefully evaluate your choices before enrolling him if you want to enroll him for social reasons. Make sure there's ample time to socialize, and help for kids who need more help. I believe some districts have special programs for kids with certain diagnoses specifically to help them with social skills...?

Edited May 7, 2016 by Tanaqui

[quark]

{...}

 

I've been having some concerns about my recently turned four year old (turned 4 in January).  Ds4 has always been a particular, sensitive, clingy, quirky kind kid..but so was my older son (now 14).  Every time some new quirk or red flag pops up I usually rationalize or dismiss it figuring it's just some new toddler/preschooler quirk..after all, toddlers and preschoolers are by nature kind of random and weird, lol.  Lately I've been getting more concerned about a few things..especially his social struggles and I've been contemplating where to go from here.  I've been contemplating having him evaluated but thought I might run this by you all to see if anyone has dealt with something similar in their gifted kids. Chiming in because I notice some similarities when DS was 4.

 

I guess, first off, here are the things that always make me rationalize and dismiss his behaviors as still being in the "typical" range ..

 

• he's a very bright kid..he has excellent visual spatial skills..he's been a whiz with puzzles since he was very small (could do 12-24 piece jigsaw puzzles before he turned 1), and excels at visual spatial games which challenge adults (Q-Bitz for example is a game for players 8 and up but he could easily play it when he was 3). He was an early reader and currently reads on a 1st grade level, is great with numbers..he spends a lot of time counting as high as he can forwards, backwards, by 5's and 10's, can add and subtract, tell time on an analog clock, etc.., he seems to have an intense need to always be "creating" something..he started taking piano lessons recently and is really excelling, he can remember songs and figure out how to play them without any help, he writes his own original compositions, he writes me stories about the solar system, he could write letters and draw discernable people and objects by 1 1/2 years old Sounds a lot like my DS13 (with the only exception being reading at a higher level but telling time only when he was 8-9yo)

•  he hit all of his milestones on time/ahead of the curve; smiling, rolling over, crawling, walking, talking, laughing, pointing, clapping, waving, ect..
•  his language skills are great..he has a large vocabulary, he asks and answers who, what, why questions and doesn't speak in a monotone manner- Yes!!
•  he exhibits joint attention (I had to google this...don't think I was looking out for this when he was 4)
•  he's structured but is usually okay with change  Sounds a lot like my DS
•  he's affectionate (not with everyone but with those he is close with) Sounds a lot like DS
•  he makes eye contact Yes
•  he "gets" humor Yes
•  he plays imaginatively Yes

Now..here are the red flags..

• he has ZERO interest in engaging with children his own age..he'll actually go out of his way to avoid interaction (he does, however, socialize fine with older children and adults).  I asked him today why he didn't want to play with some of the other children at the playground and his answer was, "Because they are annoying." YES!! He still finds same age friends annoying. It's a challenge because we homeschool this only child.
• he seems to have a photographic visual (and possibly auditory) memory..the game "QBitz" for example has 120 cards each with a different pattern..we realized at one point that he had them ALL memorized..we could show him any card and he could tell us it's number.  He did this with several other games..he memorized all 80 patterned cards in "QBitz Extreme" and the 100 patterned cards in the game "Color Code", etc.. Not QBitz because I didn't know about this game then but DS would do this with other things, hold a lot of things in his head, pose puzzles for us to solve etc. He would notice things we often missed and would find patterns in numbers, words, images (mathematical patterns mostly)
• he still has separation anxiety Yes (and I think it is quite normal for 4yo no? Maybe my perception is skewed too. DS only started "separating" recently, around 11+yo)
• he always has some type of intense, all encompassing obsession going on..when he was little it was fans, then waterfalls, then garage doors (just the door)..from the time he was 3 until he turned 4 it was space..everything all day everyday revolved around the solar system, for awhile it was the "QBitz" game, right now it's classical music and numbers (dates, birthdays, phone numbers, time, etc..) Yes! Mine was addicted to diseases, numbers, space, chemistry
• he has some mild obsessive compulsive behaviors..things like needing to rub and tap the front door in a certain pattern before he opens it Yes! But I think it has stopped now. Gradually, from about 10-11yo.
• he seems to have an intense need to put and keep things in order if they are numbered (decks of cards, etc...) Yes (but is now messier)
• he carries on normal back and forth conversation at home but with others he "scripts" quite a bit..he'll memorize parts of shows and  repeat them back word for word in replacement of actual conversation He did this somewhat, not as often as you describe, but we also didn't allow watching shows at the time...he did it more with books than shows
• he will hit himself when he is angry or frustrated he didn't do this then but does it now

 

I know that worry...I worried until he was 8 years old and finally couldn't take it anymore. We found out about a very low cost IQ evaluation at a local university (as part of an autism study) and signed DS up. He hit all the ceilings on the IQ tests and after consulting with a private psychologist with those results (the study doesn't interpret results of non autistic kids for the parent), we discovered he is profoundly gifted. During the study, I was asked to complete some questionnaires about behaviors and a few of the answers indicated borderline sensory issues and while there were a couple behaviors overlapping with those of high functioning autistic kids, he was obviously not autistic.

 

I am not an expert, just someone like you who worried a lot. If your gut instinct is telling you to get this checked out, I would totally follow that.

Edited May 7, 2016 by quark

[Dmmetler]

FWIW, you can mark us as another person with a quirky, not interested in other kids, socially out of sync advanced kid who, when tested for autism, turned out to be profoundly gifted. DD still struggles with kids her age, although she has a lot of friends, and is extremely good with younger kids. Part of the reason, I've realized, is that for her there has never been much difference between interacting with kids her own age and kids who are 2-3+ years younger. She still has to change her behavior and what she does to fit in. She does beautifully with adults, and spends a lot of her life with college/grad students. I will say that I have used some social therapy and social skills materials with her-things like the Social Express App, which DD used by using the teacher materials, and then teaching the lesson to her stuffed animals. She has learned to blend better as she's gotten older, and she's also learned and developed a small circle of friends with which she shares an interest or two and can focus around those-and that there are some kids who she really doesn't have much to say to, beyond polite conversation.

 

She also, at your DS's age, was a sensory sponge-that is, she took in everything, all the time, and would end up overloading and melting down because it was just too much. She's outgrown a lot of that, which was what I was told would happen as her brain matured and she got better and more experienced at managing her life, but at age 4/5, it was a real issue in a classroom situation, and led to a lot of autistic looking behaviors.

 

 

I will also say that I didn't entirely believe that it was "just" giftedness until I saw DD, first time, in a group of kids who were all ID'd as PG. And she fit in, beautifully, with no issues in managing the social situation. That group of kids LOOKED like a group of completely age-normal kids socializing-until you listened to what they were saying and just how fast paced the whole thing was. She has been dying to get back to that environment for almost a whole year (she'll go back this summer, and is counting the days).

 

I'm not saying you shouldn't get it checked out. DD has been evaluated, not once, but twice for exactly that reason. But be aware that it is entirely possible that you'll get the "that's just how kids who hit the ceiling on IQ tests are". And, whether he's gifted or 2e, you've found the right place!

[wapiti]

.

Edited May 8, 2016 by wapiti

[kbutton]

Agreeing with Tanaqui. My son is 2e with ASD. If you choose to evaluate, I would work very hard to find someone that is good with 2e kids and has a lot of familiarity with autism in the gifted population. Eye contact is not definitive, but I've seen it used definitively to rule out autism if the kid is gifted. 

 

One way or another, I would try to find local options for enrichment (fun enrichment that offers choices). Some programs start at young as four, and even if they require some kind of formal identification, they often have a side path for kids to enroll who present as gifted but have no formal identification--you just have to ask. This is an example of the kind of program I would recommend: http://www.supersaturday.org/  It is community-based, not school-based.

[texasmama]

I think your concerns are valid. He is very young for a definitive answer, but yes, many of these behaviors are outside the norm. What that means in terms of diagnosis and functioning remains to be seen and may take years to unpack.

 

The most worrisome thing to me which I would not want to become ingrained is the OCD/ anxiety manifestations. I'm sure you know that those Often go along with ASD. However, there are many people with anxiety without ASD.

Edited May 7, 2016 by texasmama

[lewelma]

Another quirky kid over here.  When my oldest was between the age of 4 and 9, people would regularly ask me if he was on the spectrum.  He was not great with kids, made no eye contact, was socially awkward.  By 5, I began socially scripting for him.  When you see this situation, you do this or say this.  I scripted for *years*. He was very sensory, I had to cut every tag out of every shirt, and he didn't like to be touched. He also punished himself when he was disappointed with an outcome, not physically, but I remember one time that he gave himself 2 hours of math to do because he had gotten one problem wrong in the original set. And then there was the rage.  I got the book "The Explosive Child" and used it to great effect. I also had concerns about OCD, especially since I have suffered from it in the past.  Once when he was 6, we were walking up our hill and I started to cross the street, and ds said "NO! you can't cross here."  I was confused, because we had taught him the safe places to cross (he regularly walked down the street alone), and this was one of them.  He continued, "it is Tuesday of the second week, I *have* to cross there (pointing up street)." excuse me?!?!  "I can't cross here, I can't.  I can only cross here on Wednesday of the 1st week or Monday of the 2nd week, you see there are 3 crossings and 5 days I walk, so it takes 15 days for a full cycle to occur." I went home and googled right away and started keeping a very very close eye.  Pencils *had* to be a certain way, routines could *not* change, etc.  But in the end I was convinced to let it play out without intervention.  Today, ds is very social, happy, confident young man.  I can't tell you what to do, but extreme giftedness can definitely produce outwardly similar behaviours to ASD and OCD.  

Edited May 7, 2016 by lewelma

[chocolate-chip chooky]

I'm following this thread with great interest, as many of these traits are very familiar indeed.

Oddly enough, I've never actually considered ASD in my 10 yr old. I'm caught up on anxiety and OCD mostly, but now I'm scratching my head thinking about ASD too.

 

The whole OCD thing is a regular concern of mine and something I've posted about a couple of times before.

 

Those of you who haven't sought intervention/treatment, how have you managed it? Go along with those behaviours and hope they pass? Do your best to break the brain loop?

 

Our issues come out mostly pre-bed and pre-going out. At the moment, I'm working on keeping her brain busy with other things, so that the OCD stuff doesn't dominate. It's hard, but it's worked to an extent on some occasions.Count in square numbers as far as you can go, tell me as many elements as possible that start with C, tell me countries that start with M etc. I'm just trying to get a different portion of her brain to over-ride the bit that's 'stuck'. It's hard at 10pm though...

 

Scripting? Yes. Sometimes my daughter will be telling her dad about an episode of something (always science related) and she'll be parroting it word-for-word. Not always, but often enough for me to notice it. I've put it down to great memory, but thinking about it, she even mimics the inflections and intonations. Hmmm.

And there have been times she has practised what she's going to say to someone. I've put this down to nerves and being very careful about other people's feelings.

 

Other children? Oh yes. My daughter has no patience for other children and absolutely no interest in children or usual childhood activities eg birthday parties. She's great with adults though and holds her own in adult conversations - no indications of ASD whatsoever.

 

Hurting herself in anger/frustration? Yes. She'll slap at her legs, scratch her arms, pull her hair. Not often and not for long, but it happens, usually in relation to perfectionism.

 

I'll just also note that we've never had any kind of evaluation done, so I don't know what we're dealing with. I do wonder if I use high intelligence as an 'excuse' for odd behaviours too much.

 

It's always good to hear other people's stories and know that we're not alone.

I wish you all the best.

[Dmmetler]

Honestly, I read a lot and used whatever made sense. So, yes, we did some of the techniques suggested for ASD, like social stories. The big difference was that I explained to DD what we were doing and why, and let her take the leadership. Often materials written for parents or clinicians worked better for her, and she could take/leave what she wanted. I also took advantage of things like our insurance paying for a limited number of evaluation visits with an OT every X months, and got things to do at home on the sensory, because even though it was likely she'd outgrow them anyway, she had to survive until she did, YKWIM? We found that tumbling and gymnastics were awesome for sensory integration, that trampolines and swings were very, very useful, and stuff like that. And we play acted, a lot. I also actively forced awareness of stuff other kids her age were into-so if everyone her age was into Disney princesses, I made sure she knew who they were and could talk about them. More recently, that's included doing the EdX comic book MOOC and reading up on Star Wars. Basically, I've taught her very explicitly that she has to make more of an effort to find that topic of conversation, and that no, not everyone wants to talk about frogs, snakes, chytrid fungus, or computer operating systems. And I also make sure she has people to talk about frogs, snakes, chytrid, and computer operating systems with.

 

Honestly, I'm not sure what I would have done differently if she'd been identified as being on-spectrum.

[JennSnow]

Thank you so much everyone for taking the time to read and respond to this :).  I really appreciate all of the input and advice.  Thank you also for sharing your personal experiences with your own children..I had been feeling very much alone in this so it's comforting to hear that others have struggled with the same concerns :).

Here in NY our local school district offers free evaluation services.  They can't give an official diagnosis but can offer a "classification".  I had initially thought that if we did evaluate we'd just go through our local district but after reading the responses here I'm thinking I should probably seek out a private specialist who has dealt with gifted/twice exceptional children. 

I have been trying some small things at home..for example for the OCD I'll tell him we're going to put the first ten cards in the deck of the QBitz cards out of order and leave them on the table for 30 minutes while we go and do something else.  I'll set a timer, mess up the cards, and we'll go play a game or do a puzzle until the timer beeps and then he can put them back in order.  My sister has also been bringing my niece over to play and practice social skills but I also need to think of some things that I can work on with him by myself as well.  I'm going to look up some role play and social story ideas tonight!  I know he needs more exposure and practice with other kids.  When my older son was little all of my friends had little ones too so we had lots of friends to have over for one on one playdates..not so much this time around, lol.  I tried joining a couple of local "mommy groups" but the few playdates I took him too were just too much..too many kids and too much chaos and noise.

I would love to seek out and find some other families with gifted children in my area.  Someone here posted about  a local group in their community for gifted kids..I so wish we had something similar here.  I've looked and there is nothing, especially for younger children.  I'm thinking of starting an online FB group for my area..perhaps if I do I can draw some other parents out of the woodwork :).

Thanks again for all of the thoughtful responses!!

Edited May 8, 2016 by JennSnow

[Dmmetler]

What I've found works the best is to set groups around your child's interests (so, for example, an astronomy club, or a music club, or a math club) and open it to interested kids regardless of age. We average about a 50% drop-out rate through the year, but the kids who have stayed have tended to be a good social match for DD-and while the word "gifted" never appears, I'm pretty sure the kids who stick around probably would do well on an IQ test. The age range can be wide-this year's groups ranged from 4 to 16 (DD is 11).

 

Play dates and playgroups never worked for DD, but a group of kids studying for the NME, or each bringing in a fun math problem to share with the group, or going out and identifying insects,or even just playing board and card games? That worked.

[quark]

I would definitely start a group. Build it and they will come! This is what I did when my son was crazy about science. I started a group for science books, sharing ideas and curriculum. It's not very active now but at least it got us some community and understanding when I couldn't find local connections. Another friend started a gifted group and it's now grown over 500 strong. Sometimes you just have to do it yourself if you can. Over time, you get so very creative with these things because you have done it not once, twice but almost every week/ month you are forced to come up with something new to engage these kids so they don't spiral into worrying behaviors. :grouphug:

 

For my son, I was really very clueless when he was 4. I still feel so much guilt for how ignorant I was at the time. If only I had started researching earlier, if only I had looked into testing earlier, if only this and if only that. I like your QBits strategy. Very smart! For us the neat freak thing runs in the family and I wasn't good at alleviating that because I am that way too. But for the cleanliness part, I would let him watch me walk barefoot through the grass. No it didn't help but at least he saw that I didn't fall ill from that. It took us 6 years of waiting but we finally got a dog (when I thought it was safe enough to introduce the idea without him or DH freaking out) and there was such a huge difference after that. At first, he would wash his hands EACH time he touched the dog. Now he hugs and cuddles the dog and eats a snack or apple right after without worrying about germs. Now we have a second dog that tracks in even more dirt and neat freak though I am, I am so happy when son walks on that mud without thinking twice.

 

Another strategy was the outdoors + exercise. To just get out in nature, walk and look at things. We avoided wooded areas because he was dead scared of Lyme disease (he read about it as a 4-year-old!). But at least getting out of the house, walking briskly, taking snaps of pretty flowers, even weeds, purposely getting him to touch tree bark, feel textures, and then going home and sketching things he saw, getting his hands dirty with watercolors...all of this helped.

 

We went through a LOT of books just to keep his brain busy. We used lots of puzzles (number/ crossword/ maze). I just kept trying to think of things that would engage his mind and hands. Like I mentioned before, on another thread, we also avoided anything with red dye in it because of one particularly scary episode when he started repeatedly touching things in a sequence known only to him right after he was on an antihistamine that had red dye in it. That med exacerbated an already compulsive behavior he had of touching things in a particular sequence.

 

One time, son became a complete wreck whenever he saw something (or someone) beautiful. He was 9 years old. These things just tear me to pieces. They shouldn't have to feel this way about themselves. But we didn't consult any professionals at all. I don't want to go into details why because it will be TMI, but we see lots of improvement from just giving him things that are harder and harder to do. And now with him being a teen, giving him opportunities to help out in the community and push himself socially to make an effort and try new things despite his initial feelings about them. We don't force and he knows he can stop anytime if he doesn't like something, but we give him goals, a little harder each time so he can push himself if he wants to.

[lewelma]

I had a friend who taught her children to become more adaptable by having a dice roll for icecream every night.  If you got a 6, there was icecream.  I thought it was a pretty clever way to help kids out of the strict OCD style routine.

 

[Incognito]

Here are a number of good resources for dealing with some of your challenges.  

 

Social Detectives

 

What to do when your brain gets stuck

 

Worry Dragons (I think you can still buy it from the publisher/author)

 

Gordon Neufeld also has an anxiety video series which may be on youtube - I know it is available at our local library.  I believe it was about 3 hours long and quite interesting.  Some ideas were insightful, some I disagreed with, and for the most part it was full of encouragement and some good things to consider or change in our approach to challenges.  

 

It is noteworthy to remember that a "socially awkward" gifted child can become quite "socially capable" when they land in a peer group that truly suits them.

 

 

 

 

[....]

My oldest tested as gifted during the brief time she went to ps.  My others have never been tested (most of them have never been in a school), but they all seem to be on par with the oldest.  My kids are 14, 13, 11, 8 and 1.  

 

1.  Children their own age - Yep.  Oldest two have zero friends.  If they're in a room full of kids and one adult, they'll have a conversation with the adult.  They do not like other children.  Middle two actually are pretty extroverted and friendly, so they do have friends.  11 year-old is a riot - socially.  She's usually entertaining a crowd of kids when she's in the room.  She reminds me of a girl version of Robin Williams.

 

2.  Photographic memory - Yep, 13 year-old has this, too.  We first noticed when he was about 6.  He would spell words by their fast food sign spelling.

 

3.  Separation anxiety - We've had a ton of that over the years, too.  They all outgrew it (except the 1 year-old - he has a horrible case of it right now).

 

4.  Obsessions - Yep, we got that, too.  They get on a pet topic and research it to DEATH.  I mean, they could go write a thesis about their topic and defend it in front of college professors.  It's weird!  I have a Bachelor of Science in biology and my 14 and 13 year-olds know more about botany and zoology than I do.  I'm not kidding.  It's embarrassing.  

 

5.  OCD stuff - A few years ago, the 11 year-old had some awful behaviors that went away around age 8.  She had a hand washing problem to the point where the tops of her hands were bleeding.  She also had weird body movements  - like she had a strange way she held her hands when she was nervous - and some toe-walking.  It all just went away for some reason.

 

6.  Putting stuff in order - 11 year-old was also doing this.  When she was about 6, we would all go bike riding together.  If we didn't stay in a particular order, she would get hysterical.  My son (now 13) thought this was awesome, so he would try to ride ahead to change the order.  This caused her to throw a huge fit - throwing her bike in the street and crying.  It was a nightmare.  She doesn't do any of this anymore.

 

7.  Hitting himself - yeah, 11 year old also did this when she was little.  She would pull her hair, hit her head on the wall, etc.

 

I don't know if yours have any really weird fears, but mine had those, too.  My 11 year-old was terrified of Anthrax when she was about 6.  Most kids don't even know what Anthrax is.  For years, we would not turn on the news, because it would stress out my now-14 year-old.  When my 14 year-old was about 5-6, she would sit in the backseat of the car and calculate how much our gas would cost if we needed to fill up the tank and then ask me how much money I had.  It was weird.  She would also get upset if she noticed adults breaking rules.

 

I probably spent 3 years of my life crying in the bathroom because of my kids' behaviors.   :sad:

 

Edited to add:

 

I should probably add that my kids are doing so much better now that they're older.  Most of those behaviors have stopped.  They seemed to peak around 8.  

Edited May 8, 2016 by Evanthe

[TerriM]

I think most of what you're describing seems normal for a gifted kid, except the OCD and door tapping.

 

Yes, they don't want to socialize with kids their age because they *ARE* annoying to them.  Adults are rational, interesting, non-threatening, and you can learn a lot of interesting stuff by being around them.  Adults play interesting games and have interesting conversations.   Kids get moody, can bite and hit, and are less capable of being reasoned with.   He needs a peers like him to be friends with.

 

The show conversation thing--sounds like he is trying to ignore them by just throwing words at them without actually interacting with them.  If that makes sense.  He doesn't want to interact, so filling the time with *something* impersonal until they go away.  A shield of words.

 

"he will hit himself when he is angry or frustrated:"  One of my kids does this too.  If he has pain somewhere, instead of rubbing it, he hits it.  I don't know what this is, but I was warned by a friend to be careful that he doesn't take out emotional pain on himself physically.   I think this is a high stress kind of thing.  I think big hugs and backrubs can be helpful in this kind of a situation.    Something soothing to calm him down.   If he's still doing this when he's 8 or 10, maybe you could teach him breathing exercises or have him do exercise instead of hitting himself when he's stressed.

 

He has separation anxiety:  Good!  He's 4 years old.  Perfectly normal  and good for safety at that age.  At least he won't be wandering off in a parking lot or trying to leave the house to go explore the neighborhood because he has *no* fear of separation. 

 

 

For the OCD thing, while I would keep tabs on it to know whether it's getting worse, you might just *ignore* it and see if it runs its course.  Focussing on it will probably make him focus on it more.  I would also set the line at his stuff vs. your stuff.  He can OCD over *his* stuff, but he's not allowed to worry about how *your* shoes or *your* cards are lined up, because you like them messy (or "already shuffled").  Just to make sure that there is something out there that he has to deal with that is messy. 

 

Edited May 8, 2016 by tiuzzol2

[Lecka]

That does not sound like autism to me, as subjective as that is (lol), but if he is having a hard time in some ways, he can be having a hard time and not have autism.

 

I do think there are things it sounds like are worth looking into, but there is more to "looking into things" than just "is it autism or not."

 

So I think ---- it doesn't sound like autism, but that doesn't mean "don't look into anything."

[texasmama]

As a pp stated, two of my kids (one ASD and one anxious) had peaks of issues between 8-10.  I think it is the developmental stage from concrete to abstract that is happening at that time.  I also have a different kid who leans OCD-ish, but he is completely functional, and most of his issues are with his slovenly brother.

 

 

[Roseto27]

I didn't read all of the replies. However, I am a BCBA and have two kiddos with autism. Many of the characteristics you listed remind me of my 2e son and several clients. However, if your son makes eye contact and displays joint attention, then I doubt it's autism. I will say, though, that I've also seen several sets of parents who truly didn't see the more subtle qualitative differences in those two characteristics with their autistic kiddos. If you're at all in doubt, get a thorough evaluation with a developmental pediatrician who has experience with gifted kids, asd kids, and 2e kiddos.

[texasmama]

My ASD kid exhibited eye contact and joint attention at the age of four.  He has high functioning ASD, formerly diagnosed as Asperger's.  This is one reason I rejected the ASD diagnosis given at the age of three to him by the public school system.  Turns out they were right.  He has since received a formal diagnosis.  Now that he is a teen, he is less willing to exhibit eye contact.  

 

This is not to say that the OP's child - or any other child - is on the spectrum based on these two criteria.  Just adding my own small experience to the equation.

[Lecka]

I am going to take back what I said, I think other posters make a good point about subtle differences and also things that may look different in littler kids.

 

It makes it seem like it is worth letting someone see him who is trained to recognize those subtle differences.

 

Edit: just as a general principle, I do think this is worth doing. Also you can hear ajar the specialists have to say.

Edited May 8, 2016 by Lecka

[JennSnow]

Thanks again for all of the input and advice!  I can't even express how appreciated and valuable it is :).  

I just wanted to add that despite all of my concerns, ds is also a joy :).  He loves classical music and kept trying to figure songs out by ear so we figured what the heck and signed him up for piano lessons (nothing serious..the lessons are about 15 minutes a week and his instructor is a teenage student of a lady who runs a small local studio).  He just started about two months ago but he loves it.  He's gotten good and figuring out and playing the songs on his CD (Suzuki) by ear.

 

He loves to create his own little original compositions too.  He came up with this one for me last week..he calls it, "Paddling in a Boat" :).
 

Edited May 9, 2016 by JennSnow

[kbutton]

I didn't read all of the replies. However, I am a BCBA and have two kiddos with autism. Many of the characteristics you listed remind me of my 2e son and several clients. However, if your son makes eye contact and displays joint attention, then I doubt it's autism. I will say, though, that I've also seen several sets of parents who truly didn't see the more subtle qualitative differences in those two characteristics with their autistic kiddos. If you're at all in doubt, get a thorough evaluation with a developmental pediatrician who has experience with gifted kids, asd kids, and 2e kiddos.

 

Yep.

 

My ASD kid exhibited eye contact and joint attention at the age of four.  He has high functioning ASD, formerly diagnosed as Asperger's.  This is one reason I rejected the ASD diagnosis given at the age of three to him by the public school system.  Turns out they were right.  He has since received a formal diagnosis.  Now that he is a teen, he is less willing to exhibit eye contact.  

 

This is not to say that the OP's child - or any other child - is on the spectrum based on these two criteria.  Just adding my own small experience to the equation.

 

Yep, again.

 

This is what I meant upthread about eye contact being used definitively to rule out autism. It's not fair to the kid being diagnosed to have soft criteria used to rule something in or out. It bites both on the underdiagnosis and overdiagnosis sides of things. 

 

We were the parents that didn't see the more subtle stuff because we had a limited view of what autism looked like. We also were just used to our son being the way he is, and he showed fewer symptoms at home than in public, and the most signs in public when we were not there to nudge him in the right direction. We thought our psychologist was reaching a bit to suggest ASD (and he did get a PDD-NOS label, not Asperger's under the old criteria), but then we heard a lecture that included information on what 2e ASD looked like, and we not only saw our son in that description, we saw a couple of other kids we know, lol! (We've lost touch with most of the other kids that came to mind, but they also had professionals tell them at some point that ASD was likely in at least two of those kids, and the family of the third one has accepted an informal label from the psych--not sure if they will pursue a definitive diagnosis. It was a good lecture.)

[texasmama]

We were the parents that didn't see the more subtle stuff because we had a limited view of what autism looked like. We also were just used to our son being the way he is, and he showed fewer symptoms at home than in public, and the most signs in public when we were not there to nudge him in the right direction. We thought our psychologist was reaching a bit to suggest ASD (and he did get a PDD-NOS label, not Asperger's under the old criteria), but then we heard a lecture that included information on what 2e ASD looked like, and we not only saw our son in that description, we saw a couple of other kids we know, lol! (We've lost touch with most of the other kids that came to mind, but they also had professionals tell them at some point that ASD was likely in at least two of those kids, and the family of the third one has accepted an informal label from the psych--not sure if they will pursue a definitive diagnosis. It was a good lecture.)

Very quickly parents become acclimated to their own kids and are completely unable to see them objectively.

 

The most eye opening experience I had during the many years that my son was receiving multiple services as a walk-in from the public school was his long-term speech therapist describing to me and demonstrating how his body language looked when he walked down the hall of the school.  I didn't see it as odd before this.  He was just "ds", my very loved son.  I had never really noticed the way he walked or carried himself or held his hands and arms.

 

I could argue against the labels all day and night for years on end, but when this nice lady that I trusted who cared about my son gently described him in accurate terms, I knew she was right.  He was not NT.  

Edited May 9, 2016 by texasmama

[kbutton]

Very quickly parents become acclimated to their own kids and are completely unable to see them objectively.

 

The most eye opening experience I had during the many years that my son was receiving multiple services as a walk-in from the public school was his long-term speech therapist describing to me and demonstrating how his body language looked when he walked down the hall of the school.  I didn't see it as odd before this.  He was just "ds", my very loved son.  I had never really noticed the way he walked or carried himself or held his hands and arms.

 

I could argue against the labels all day and night for years on end, but when this nice lady that I trusted who cared about my son gently described him in accurate terms, I knew she was right.  He was not NT.  

 

:grouphug:

 

In our case, it was the frog in the pot of water scenario--you just do what you need to do to make your kid successful without realizing that you're accommodating things other people don't have to deal with (our son's strategy for dealing with hard stuff was basically be as invisible as possible so no one knows you're not sure what to do, and then meltdown at home). We got a great deal of blame for our son's issues, but no one really thought he needed a label (a few thought maybe ADHD, but most people we were around were anti-ADHD labels). The labels were all for us as parents, lol! 

[quark]

 

He loves to create his own little original compositions too.  He came up with this one for me last week..he calls it, "Paddling in a Boat" :).

 

 

Aww, please let him know I loved it too. He is such a cutie!

[pinewarbler]

Evanthe talks about having to turn off the news… I had to stop listening to the radio when my first turned 2. I haven’t had the daytime news on in more than a decade. (Something that is difficult to explain to most people). Either kid would start crying when they did hear about a crisis on the news, and DS10 would become obsessed with some dark aspect for months. I couldn’t handle it, so read the news in the eve. I did start to let them go on a kids news website when current events were coming up in school.

 

I agree with tiuzzol2 that most of this sounds highly gifted kid, except the OCD. But you have to go with your gut, and check these things out.

 

We have many of the items you list in our PG kid.

 

Many obsessions here..some long lived, some more fleeting. For eg. obsessions about mechanical devices. Right now it’s constant building from scratch, with no instructions, no help of “ANY KIND!!!†perfectly-working Geneva devices, Scotch Yoke mechanisms, trebuchets, etc. from Technic lego. He will talk of nothing else, break only when forced to eat until he has solved the problem. At age10 it’s the first year that he can go to bed close to a regular time without having the design issues solved. This is imaginational overexcitability.

 

This is the first year where separation anxiety is starting to really dwindle! In a busy public area, though, he stands next to me, and is upset if I stop suddenly and he keeps walking. This part of giftedness has always made sense to me for a couple of reasons: 

• At age 2, he knew more than any other child I’ve seen, which meant that he knew many of the real-world consequences of losing his Mom, and was very anxious about any physical risks. Recently on the subway for a field trip he was stressed for the other kids messing around near the tracks. They have no idea of the consequences of falling on the third rail.
  
• Secondly, I am his interpreter to a world of people that act very oddly in his opinion. He can empathize, he can have conversations with anyone. He is a quick study of social behaviours but despite that I think he feels like an alien. 
  
• Thirdly, he has always known that he needs an advocate. Someone who can explain to the adults why he insists on: justice in the world, adults treating all kids with respect, being taught at his level and his right to refuse to answer a dumb question. You know, all the ‘weird’ stuff I get eyerolls about (especially from grandparents. Grrr).
  

 

He memorizes the way others speak too. He won’t see someone for a year, and then in the first minute talking with them will use one of “their†catch phrases. He was motivated to learn something about them to try to relate to them. Once he asked to watch a couple of minecraft videos because we didn’t have minecraft, and he needed to be able to contribute to conversations. No one ever figured out he didn’t have the game. Also, after listening for a few days to an accent, he can recreate it with eerie similarity. Perfect spy skills :)

 

Although I find he is very empathetic with children who obviously need help in class, or are actually hurt, he is very annoyed by many kids. For example those who are behind in class because “they don’t listenâ€. I’ve tried to explain to him that not everyone has 100% audio memory, and may only hear a small portion the first time. And other kids may not do well in school because of reading difficulties. He keeps saying that I don’t understand.. that they could do well if they wanted to. I think this is typical of PG kids.

[chocolate-chip chooky]

The separation anxiety is interesting.

 

I see a couple of possible reasons.

 

Firstly, as pinewarbler said, these kids are thinkers and they understand the possible consequences of getting lost. They are always thinking about the 'what if' of any situation. They also notice differences in their environment and consider the implications of this.

 

Secondly, as the primary carers for these kids we have been their prime company and source of mental stimulation. They've relied on us for this, instead of other kids. While this may not lead to separation anxiety, I feel that it leads to a very close bond that may resemble that to others.

 

 

[chocolate-chip chooky]

Also, this interesting blog post is quite relevant:

 

http://yellowreadis.blogspot.com.au/2016/05/is-my-gifted-child-autistic.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed:+Gluten-freeMum+%28Gluten-Free+Mum%29

 

This blogger writes such interesting and well-researched articles.

[Alessandra]

https://m-chat.org

 

Here's a link to a preschool autism screening test. It's one ours peds use for every single kid in the practice.

 

Scoring in the AS range on the test does not mean a kid is on the spectrum. It's simply an indication for ped to do a more detailed screening. That could or could not lead to a full eval. In any case, the MCHAT could be a good place to start.

 

Have you thought of teaching your kid chess? Visual memory is a big asset for chess. Your kid is at a great age to learn and also play competitively. Btw, it's also a great game socially -- lots of quirky people play chess. But not all areas are strong in chess. Alaska -- no. NY/NJ, TX, CA are great.

[JennSnow]

https://m-chat.org

 

Here's a link to a preschool autism screening test. It's one ours peds use for every single kid in the practice.

 

Scoring in the AS range on the test does not mean a kid is on the spectrum. It's simply an indication for ped to do a more detailed screening. That could or could not lead to a full eval. In any case, the MCHAT could be a good place to start.

 

Have you thought of teaching your kid chess? Visual memory is a big asset for chess. Your kid is at a great age to learn and also play competitively. Btw, it's also a great game socially -- lots of quirky people play chess. But not all areas are strong in chess. Alaska -- no. NY/NJ, TX, CA are great.

 

 

That's so funny because my older son is teaching him how to play!  The older kiddo has been playing competitively since he was 6..he has a goal set of reaching master and is getting close to reaching it.  I had thought the same thing..that a strong visual memory will be an asset in chess :).  We're in NY..our local chess scene is relatively strong and we travel a little for larger tournaments as well.

 

Thank you for the link to the screening tool as well, off to take a look at it! :)

Edited May 11, 2016 by JennSnow

[Alessandra]

That's so funny because my older son is teaching him how to play! The older kiddo has been playing competitively since he was 6..he has a goal set of reaching master and is getting close to reaching it. I had thought the same thing..that a strong visual memory will be an asset in chess :). We're in NY..our local chess scene is relatively strong and we travel a little for larger tournaments as well.

 

Thank you for the link to the screening tool as well, off to take a look at it! :)

Talk about preaching to the choir! We may have met, or been in the same room, at some point, lol.

I don't stay when ds is in tournaments any more, but I did when he was younger. NYC has a bazillion chess events going on every week -- it's hard to choose where to play sometimes. And we travel for some of the bigger tournaments too.

[JennSnow]

Talk about preaching to the choir! We may have met, or been in the same room, at some point, lol.

I don't stay when ds is in tournaments any more, but I did when he was younger. NYC has a bazillion chess events going on every week -- it's hard to choose where to play sometimes. And we travel for some of the bigger tournaments too.

We're on the other end of the state in the Western New York area...but we almost always attend the state championship at Saratoga Springs :).  Do both of your kiddos play?

[Alessandra]

Oh, that is far. We are in NYC suburbs, so ds can play here or use public transportation to get into NYC. High school homework and now final exams are slowing the chess a bit, but ds still plays a lot. We were wondering about Saratoga as a good prep for Nationals... Perhaps next year. I did not realize that good chess extended so far upstate.

 

Chess really is its own culture. Ds has made so many friends through chess, so many cultures, backgrounds. I like that aspect. I hope your youngest gets to compete soon.

 

ETA

Just the one kid plays. But dd and I love being tourists when ds plays in different cities.

 

You must be quite close to North American Youth this summer. It's in Canada, across from Detroit. Too far for us though. :-(

Edited May 11, 2016 by Alessandra

[blondeviolin]

I don't think an evaluation is unwarranted. Some of the red flags are definitely flags. BUT, it's possible to be 2E so I'm not sure it would be best to speculate. Rather, I'd bring it up with his doctor.

[JennSnow]

Oh, that is far. We are in NYC suburbs, so ds can play here or use public transportation to get into NYC. High school homework and now final exams are slowing the chess a bit, but ds still plays a lot. We were wondering about Saratoga as a good prep for Nationals... Perhaps next year. I did not realize that good chess extended so far upstate.

 

Chess really is its own culture. Ds has made so many friends through chess, so many cultures, backgrounds. I like that aspect. I hope your youngest gets to compete soon.

 

ETA

Just the one kid plays. But dd and I love being tourists when ds plays in different cities.

 

You must be quite close to North American Youth this summer. It's in Canada, across from Detroit. Too far for us though. :-(

Yes, as ds's school work load has increased chess has taken a bit of a back seat here as well.  We have a wonderful club that meets locally once a week and we try to get in 1-2 tournaments a month with a larger one every few months.  We also travel to Rochester often as they have a very active club as well :).  

 

The state champs at Saratoga is absolutely great prep for nationals!  Having experience with both ds says that the NY state championship is actually MORE competitive than nationals..that at nationals there are kids from all over the country..some small towns and some big ones which evens out the playing field a bit..whereas at states almost all of the kids are from NYC..and NYC players are fierce! :)

 

We skipped states this year but ds will most definitely compete next year because he will be at the top of the age bracket for the junior high championship section.  

 

We have a large local tournament coming up here in June.  Ds will be playing in a  6 board blindfolded simul with a grandmaster who is attending (the grandmaster is the only one blindfolded, lol) which is a really neat opportunity!  Drop me a pm if you're ever interested in traveling to this end of the state and I'll fill you in on the details! :)

[Alessandra]

That was my feeling about Satatoga -- more competitive than Nationals. (We tend to look at results from any interesting tournaments, not just the ones we have played in.) But ds feels that Nationals are great for the experience.

 

Our favorite tournament is always ATE, because it is real team play, not just highest scorers from each team. And no classes. I remember one year a team from NYU acted very insulted when they were paired against a team of under 10 year olds. The young kids won that match up, easily.

 

In any case, I hope your youngest ends up liking chess. Thank goodness, you are in a location where you can play. Sometimes, I look to see what is going on in, say, North Dakota. Sad.