Blog about plagiarism in Douglas Wilson's Omnibus

[tmstranger]

Plagiarism would be a toss the book out dealbreaker for me. College bound kids need to learn best practice academic conduct and how to cite sources. Using poorly sourced material is not going to help them at all. Sloppy work begets sloppy work.

 

That said, it's not like my family is in this guy's market or customer demographic.

 

 

I haven't used Omnibus, but I've looked at it for potential use in future years...

 

With that said, this story made a great example for me this week as my son reached the "citing works" section of WWS1.  We had a good discussion about how important it is to properly give credit when using someone else's words.  It's stealing! Plain and simple. 

[Mergath]

Curious if you've received your more detailed reply yet?   :) I got the catalog in the mail today and it made me think of it. 

 

Nope. I haven't heard anything more from them. 

[melmichigan]

They were just "editing oversights" according to one VP response  (in the comments section). 

[Mergath]

They were just "editing oversights" according to one VP response  (in the comments section). 

 

Looks like they deleted that comment too.

 

Do they not realize that deleting all these comments and hoping no one sees them only makes them look more underhanded and unethical? 

[shanezomom]

Is there an update to this?

[jjeepa]

Is there an update to this?

Just wondering about this too! 

[Jane Elliot]

Here's a recent response from the comments section of their Facebook page. 

 

"We are aware of the blog posts concerning the Omnibus and have reached out to the writer. We are also working on having an expert review the Omnibus comprehensively in order to determine what needs to be done. Our hope is that Omnibus is better as a result . . ."

 

I wonder what they mean when they say they've "reached out to the writer [of the blog]"

[jjeepa]

Thanks Jane Elliot!  I follow VP on Facebook but haven't seen this comment.  

[anmom]

Just curious if there was ever any other responses about this?

[Guest]

Just curious if there was ever any other responses about this?

I got an email from Veritas this morning titled "Our Responsibility" and (foolishly) thought Oh boy, they're finally going to address it! But nope. It was just trying to sell a subscription to the World news thing they provide. I haven't heard anything since Mergath's last post. Since she contacted them directly I was hoping she would get a more in depth reply, but I haven't heard anything new.

[lexi]

I got an email from Veritas this morning titled "Our Responsibility" and (foolishly) thought Oh boy, they're finally going to address it! But nope. It was just trying to sell a subscription to the World news thing they provide. I haven't heard anything since Mergath's last post. Since she contacted them directly I was hoping she would get a more in depth reply, but I haven't heard anything new.

Me too! I opened it and started reading right away to see if they were addressing the issue. Nope!! I'm really frustrated that they aren't updating people.

[Mergath]

I got an email from Veritas this morning titled "Our Responsibility" and (foolishly) thought Oh boy, they're finally going to address it! But nope. It was just trying to sell a subscription to the World news thing they provide. I haven't heard anything since Mergath's last post. Since she contacted them directly I was hoping she would get a more in depth reply, but I haven't heard anything new.

 

I never heard from them beyond what I posted. 

[Spy Car]

Anyone surprised?

 

Bill

 

 

[Guest]

Anyone surprised?

 

Bill

I am a little surprised, or maybe disappointed, that it hasn't effected their bottom line enough to force some type of response. I'm sure we've all seen much bigger companies have to move much faster due to public outrage. Guess that didn't happen enough to change anything here, which is sad.

[Guest]

Someone posted on the high school forum that VP will send you a copy of the report if requested. I just saw it, but I'm on my phone so it's hard to link. It's a thread with someone asking thoughts about Omnibus I.

[RootAnn]

Anyone surprised?

 

Bill

 

Not in the slightest.

[jjeepa]

Very disappointing 

 

[Edia1012]

So, has anyone read the "report" that Veritas Press put out regarding the Omnibus plagiarism? Are they refuting the allegations of plagiarism? I am curious if they will plan to edit (heavily) these books and add citations.

[Jane Elliot]

So, has anyone read the "report" that Veritas Press put out regarding the Omnibus plagiarism? Are they refuting the allegations of plagiarism? I am curious if they will plan to edit (heavily) these books and add citations.

 

Have they released a new report to the public? I only read what they e-mailed me at my request. They sent CopyByte's preliminary evaluation and a link to this blog post, which I had already read and thought lame. I was in shock that they sent that link. The blogger admits to not having read all Rachel Miller's examples of plagiarism, exhibits a "malignant spirit" toward her throughout his post, and ironically concludes by calling for church discipline for her "malignant spirit" toward Doug Wilson.

[jjeepa]

Have they released a new report to the public? I only read what they e-mailed me at my request. They sent CopyByte's preliminary evaluation and a link to this blog post, which I had already read and thought lame. I was in shock that they sent that link. The blogger admits to not having read all Rachel Miller's examples of plagiarism, exhibits a "malignant spirit" toward her throughout his post, and ironically concludes by calling for church discipline for her "malignant spirit" toward Doug Wilson.

 

Wow.  I continue to be disappointed by VP and their lack of professionalism in handling this issue.  

[SeaConquest]

Have they released a new report to the public? I only read what they e-mailed me at my request. They sent CopyByte's preliminary evaluation and a link to this blog post, which I had already read and thought lame. I was in shock that they sent that link. The blogger admits to not having read all Rachel Miller's examples of plagiarism, exhibits a "malignant spirit" toward her throughout his post, and ironically concludes by calling for church discipline for her "malignant spirit" toward Doug Wilson.

And, of course, she is also "unhinged." Nice to see them using the hysterical woman trope.

[AdventuresinHomeschooling]

This blogger says CC isn't related to Doug Wilson, yet they recommend several of his books in their bookstore and sell his wife's logic curriculum. Maybe he's not doing his homework here.

[melmichigan]

But then there was sex. This is the place where Satan is focussing his attack on God's law today, and it became apparent that Ms. Miller's editorial leadership was most toxic here. She showed her feminism on the Aquila Report, but Ms. Miller kept the worst parts of her sexual rebellion for publication on her own website titled A Daughter of the Reformation.

 

Feminists who want to hold onto conservative Christian credentials claim they submit to their husbands at home, in private. Occasionally they trot their husbands out online to testify to their submissiveness at home. But in their online attacks on men, these women take no prisoners. You can see it on all the Reformed sites: women condemn pastors and elders without a hint of modesty or shame.

 

No one suffers from these attacks more than Pastor Doug Wilson. Some of their attacks are focussed on...

 

 

I read the blog post VP is referencing. Seriously, this is the explanation?   :huh:

 

 

Edited July 11, 2016 by melmichigan

[SeaConquest]

 

I read the blog post VP is referencing. Seriously, this is the explanation?   :huh:

 

 

 

How dare those unhinged feminists have an opinion, and make it known in public! 

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I truly believe that all of this should be spelled out more clearly in the brochure. Do homeschooling families even know who's behind their kids' studies?? Do they really intend to keep the kids out of ps...for this??

 

Don't answer that. :/

[AdventuresinHomeschooling]

What is the name of that curriculum?

Looks like I misspoke. The logic curriculum, Introductory Logic and Intermediate Logic are written by Doug Wilson himself along with James Nance. His wife wrote Our Mother Tongue, an English grammar book. Seems I confused the two.

 

The CC catalog is full of Doug Wilson resources for parents. It's strange to me that this blogger says he doesn't really see any of his influence. I don't even do CC, and I knew this.

[Jane Elliot]

What is the name of that curriculum?

 

Go to the CC Bookstore and type "Wilson" in the search box for a full list.

Edited July 12, 2016 by Jane Elliot

[Spy Car]

Looks like I misspoke. The logic curriculum, Introductory Logic and Intermediate Logic are written by Doug Wilson himself along with James Nance. 

 

BTW, I read Introductory Logic by Nance/Wilson and was appalled to discover it was as actually a polemic in support of a very narrow reformed theology and not a book on Logic.

 

That was a long time ago. Back when I was very naive in thinking books (especially those recommended in TWTM) would actually be about the subjects they claimed to be about, instead of stealth apologetics.

 

Took me a while to catch on. 

 

Bill

[staceyobu]

Go to the CC Bookstore and type "Wilson" in the search box for a full list.

Ugh. We are joining a CC group here. This is disheartening.

[AdventuresinHomeschooling]

Ugh. We are joining a CC group here. This is disheartening.

Please understand that I am not suggesting CC is a bad thing. May be a great fit for your family. I have several friends that love it, although I have determined, for many reasons, that it would not be a good fit for us. I was simply showing that this blogger was speaking ignorantly. I don't think these curriculum choices are in foundations though, but Leigh Bortins has definitely shaped her philosophy with Doug Wilson's influence. I think we would all be amiss to disregard the role Wilson has in the classical education movement. That doesn't mean we should throw out classical education, imo. But we need to be aware of the influences that exist and decide the best approach for our families based on our personal philosophy. Also keep in mind that our application of the tools of a curriculum is the most important part. but we need to be aware of any weaknesses our tools (curriculum) contain.

[staceyobu]

Can someone please explain to me the relationship between Veritas Press and Doug Wilson? Does he own it? Work for it? Write materials that are used by them?

[ElizaG]

I think we would all be amiss to disregard the role Wilson has in the classical education movement. That doesn't mean we should throw out classical education, imo. But we need to be aware of the influences that exist and decide the best approach for our families based on our personal philosophy. Also keep in mind that our application of the tools of a curriculum is the most important part. but we need to be aware of any weaknesses our tools (curriculum) contain.

 

I just wanted to clarify that Douglas Wilson's role has been within the "classical education movement" of Christian schools and homeschoolers, which began in the United States around 1980.   It does seem possible that his behavior might affect the image of that movement.  But this has nothing to do with the validity of classical education in the broad sense, which goes back thousands of years.

 

William F. Buckley Jr. seems to have been the one who sparked the movement, by printing Dorothy Sayers' "Lost Tools of Learning" essay multiple times in National Review.   As far as I know, though, it was Wilson who first described this model as "classical."  Sayers herself never used this term, nor was it used by scholars to describe the medieval university system she favored.  

 

It's not clear what led Wilson (or whoever it was) to start using the phrase "classical education" in this new way, but it's misled a lot of people, and has created a smokescreen for those who might be interested in the older classical traditions.    I don't suppose we can undo that at this point.  But it's interesting that the casual use of sources seems to go right back to the beginning.

[SarahW]

Looks like I misspoke. The logic curriculum, Introductory Logic and Intermediate Logic are written by Doug Wilson himself along with James Nance. His wife wrote Our Mother Tongue, an English grammar book. Seems I confused the two.

 

The CC catalog is full of Doug Wilson resources for parents. It's strange to me that this blogger says he doesn't really see any of his influence. I don't even do CC, and I knew this.

 

 

Yes, this is a major reason why I did not join CC when I went to one of their summer seminars two years ago. The "general help" book table was full of DW's books, including some of the very questionable ones (which did give me the opportunity to confirm "yep, he does actually say that"). The book order form provided in our folders had DW's books at the very top of the page. It made me incredibly uncomfortable that the people who would be teaching my child did not exercise thoughtful discernment.

 

The lady who runs CC is herself Reformed, so I guess it's no surprise she is close to DW. I hope that she is rethinking her position, because right now she is just enabling people to join in his madness.

[Jane Elliot]

I just wanted to clarify that Douglas Wilson's role has been within the "classical education movement" of Christian schools and homeschoolers, which began in the United States around 1980.   It does seem possible that his behavior might affect the image of that movement.  But this has nothing to do with the validity of classical education in the broad sense, which goes back thousands of years.

 

William F. Buckley Jr. seems to have been the one who sparked the movement, by printing Dorothy Sayers' "Lost Tools of Learning" essay multiple times in National Review.   As far as I know, though, it was Wilson who first described this model as "classical."  Sayers herself never used this term, nor was it used by scholars to describe the medieval university system she favored.  

 

It's not clear what led Wilson (or whoever it was) to start using the phrase "classical education" in this new way, but it's misled a lot of people, and has created a smokescreen for those who might be interested in the older classical traditions.    I don't suppose we can undo that at this point.  But it's interesting that the casual use of sources seems to go right back to the beginning.

 

Thanks for the clarification, ElizaG. I always enjoy your synopses on the history of education.

[ElizaG]

It gets pretty interesting when you start looking at the origins. 

 

For one thing, Douglas Wilson was opposed to homeschooling, at least in the beginning.   Did he ever officially change his mind on that?

 

And as I understand it, Jessie Wise and Laura Berquist (author of DYOCC) both figured out how to homeschool by using their own judgment -- then fit their approaches into the "Lost Tools of Learning" trivium model, after the fact.   

 

So the core of the "classical homeschooling movement" comes from the personal experience of mothers and teachers, and doesn't have much to do with either Wilson's leadership or Sayers' inspiration.   

 

I'm not much of a joiner, but I guess I can see why these authors, and others, chose to associate themselves with an impressive-sounding (albeit vague) trend.   I hope it doesn't backfire on them. 

[AdventuresinHomeschooling]

I just wanted to clarify that Douglas Wilson's role has been within the "classical education movement" of Christian schools and homeschoolers, which began in the United States around 1980. It does seem possible that his behavior might affect the image of that movement. But this has nothing to do with the validity of classical education in the broad sense, which goes back thousands of years.

 

William F. Buckley Jr. seems to have been the one who sparked the movement, by printing Dorothy Sayers' "Lost Tools of Learning" essay multiple times in National Review. As far as I know, though, it was Wilson who first described this model as "classical." Sayers herself never used this term, nor was it used by scholars to describe the medieval university system she favored.

 

It's not clear what led Wilson (or whoever it was) to start using the phrase "classical education" in this new way, but it's misled a lot of people, and has created a smokescreen for those who might be interested in the older classical traditions. I don't suppose we can undo that at this point. But it's interesting that the casual use of sources seems to go right back to the beginning.

I agree. He has influenced the resurgence. However, I wouldn't say he invented the term. Thomas Jefferson, for example, used the term "classical" often.

 

The more I read on classical education, I do see that its resurgence has strong ties to the Reformed denominations of Christianity. But even though I am not Reformed, I do not think that means all of these methods or curricula are suspect. I am selective on what religious influences appear in my family's curriculum and screen curricula with a careful eye for the things that align with the values and beliefs I want to instill in my children. I think that's what we all attempt to do.

Edited July 16, 2016 by AdventuresinHomeschooling

[staceyobu]

Yes, this is a major reason why I did not join CC when I went to one of their summer seminars two years ago. The "general help" book table was full of DW's books, including some of the very questionable ones (which did give me the opportunity to confirm "yep, he does actually say that"). The book order form provided in our folders had DW's books at the very top of the page. It made me incredibly uncomfortable that the people who would be teaching my child did not exercise thoughtful discernment.

 

The lady who runs CC is herself Reformed, so I guess it's no surprise she is close to DW. I hope that she is rethinking her position, because right now she is just enabling people to join in his madness.

I don't think being reformed means being close to DW. We are reformed and think he's whacky.

[Jane Elliot]

I don't think being reformed means being close to DW. We are reformed and think he's whacky.

 

Exactly so. The blogger who brought the plagiarism to light is, I believe, a member of a PCA church which is a reformed denomination. 

Edited July 17, 2016 by Jane Elliot

[SarahW]

I don't think being reformed means being close to DW. We are reformed and think he's whacky.

 

 

Exactly so. The blogger who brought the plagiarism is, I believe, a member of a PCA church which is a reformed denomination. 

 

 

:001_rolleyes:

 

Seriously, all I meant is that she and him are part of the same "tribe" and that has likely made her more trusting to promote him and more likely to hand-wave anything problematic.

 

And I am aware the blogger is also Reformed. I poked around her blog a bit. She is opposed to DW, yes. But I don't necessarily agree with her either.

[Kat w]

The colleges here both comm. Coll and universities do not allow citations from Wikipedia.

 

I have heard they have made an effort to be more reliable. Not sure in that tho, only hearsay fir me.

Edited July 17, 2016 by Kat w

[Kat w]

Can someone please explain to me the relationship between Veritas Press and Doug Wilson? Does he own it? Work for it? Write materials that are used by them?

I believe, not 100% sure sosomeone please correct me if I'm wrong. But, I believe veritas press simply sells his books. I don't think he is at the helm.

 

I think shying away from VP would be throwing the bath water out with the baby.

 

And to someone's question about didn't Doug Wilson used to be opposed to homeschooling. YES! he did. It was r.c. Sproul Jr influence on Jim that "changed his mind".

 

We know RC Jr an know this to be true. We are redormedalso and Doug Wilson ha for many years been one that many reformers have stayed away from.

[Kat w]

Sorry thpos. On old phone and...it's not letting me edit. Ugh. Sorry

[Jane Elliot]

I think shying away from VP would be throwing the bath water out with the baby.

 

I was leaning that way until I got their response to my questions about how they were handling the plagiarism. When they included the link to the blog post as part of their response, I decided then and there that I was done with them. I will not purchase from them again. Not ever.

Edited July 17, 2016 by Jane Elliot

[DoubleAMom]

 

I completely disagree with this statement, and am horrified that someone who purports to be a historian would say such a thing.  

Here's the thing.  Omnibus is a HISTORY text.  Quality sources are a critical part of the academic content.  The questions "How do we know this?", and "From what perspective was this written?", and "What are the underlying assumptions  that go along with this conclusion?" and "In general, how accurate and reliable is this work?" are a key part of understanding and critically evaluating any history source.  Readers, not always the students themselves but most definitely the teachers who assign such works, need to know whether the material comes from primary sources, or from the work of well-regarded historians, or from some other source.  If, later on, a particular source is deemed to be misleading, misinterpreted, mistranslated, otherwise unreliable, or flat-out wrong, a citation trail can help readers weed out the inaccurate information that was based upon it.

 

My family did a study of Shakespeare some years ago.  We found some college lecture notes on the web (which, sadly, no longer exist - they were wonderful!), in which the teacher clearly explained how we know what we know about Shakespeare's life.  The teacher included the specific excerpts from works written at the time (mostly Samuel Pepys' diary), as well as information such as birth records, etc.   Armed with the specific knowledge of the very limited information available, it was interesting to then evaluate the non-fiction children's books we got from our library.  Some were very, very careful to stick closely to the primary sources, without embellishment or over-broad speculation.  Others, to be frank, simply made stuff up.  Since then, I've been much more aware of the difference, and much more appreciative of carefully, accurately written history books aimed at children.  I now choose such books with a much more critical eye.

 

History texts that rely on Wikipedia for their content are simply not up to modern-day standards of accuracy and reliability. 

 

Completely agree!  The examples of plagiarism are horrid, but the fact that a history text would use Wikipedia as a source is equally as horrid.  I had purchased a couple of the self-paced history courses for my kids for this year, and now I am wondering what sources VP used for those courses. 

 

[bethben]

I was leaning that way until I got their response to my questions about how they were handling the plagiarism. When they included the link to the blog post as part of their response, I decided then and there that I was done with them. I will not purchase from them again. Not ever.

 

I thought they showed that at least some of the plagiarism examples could be misconstrued as plagiarism when they were not.  Regardless of which way you lean, the response was HORRIBLE!  He attacked her character first to show that she was vindictive and therefor could not possibly be right even if she was.  He sounded petty and snarky.  A good response would be to go through each of her examples and politely show a refutation.  I think that would have gone much farther.  And if they couldn't refute her examples well, at least say, "Perhaps we were wrong."  

[ScoutTN]

I don't think being reformed means being close to DW. We are reformed and think he's whacky.

 

 

:iagree:  :iagree:  :iagree:

 

I could think of lots of worse words than "whacky" for DW!   :ack2:

 

Edited July 28, 2016 by ScoutTN