Gender disparity in student body

[hornblower]

I follow Dr Hope Jahren (geobiologist) on Twitter. She has a book out called Lab Girl.

She talks about women in stem academics a lot.

Here's one article she wrote recently http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/03/06/opinion/sunday/she-wanted-to-do-her-research-he-wanted-to-talk-feelings.html?_r=0

 

 

There was a conference on this topic a few months ago and from the reports I saw, several participants seemed to be suggesting that the daily grind of sexism piled on top of the general academic stress was just burning people out. They were talking about importance of setting up support groups beyond the student's own college and advisor.

 

 

 

 

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[8circles]

I follow Dr Hope Jahren (geobiologist) on Twitter. She has a book out called Lab Girl.

She talks about women in stem academics a lot.

Here's one article she wrote recently http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/03/06/opinion/sunday/she-wanted-to-do-her-research-he-wanted-to-talk-feelings.html?_r=0

 

 

There was a conference on this topic a few months ago and from the reports I saw, several participants seemed to be suggesting that the daily grind of sexism piled on top of the general academic stress was just burning people out. They were talking about importance of setting up support groups beyond the student's own college and advisor.

 

 

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I heard and interview with her on NPR recently. Really fascinating.

[flyingiguana]

Sexism in STEM fields is rampant.  It's invisible.  Men and women may think they're living the same experience, but they're really in parallel universes.

 

Oftentimes, even the victim of the sexism doesn't recognize it for what it is.  It's just kind of an icky feeling when around a certain guy, or a lot of wondering what she personally did to make him act this way, without any realization that most of the women around her are being mistreated in exactly the same way.  And it does take a toll -- a huge toll -- even if it's unrecognized for what it is.

 

Sexism/harrassment is not so overt anymore.  It's gone underground.  The guys who are practicing it have gotten really good at hiding their tracks and making it look like the woman's fault.  And often the woman believes it is her fault.  She comes to the conclusion that she just isn't good enough at science.  This is not going to show up on surveys of "why women left" if they don't even recognize what happened to them.  They just know that they "weren't as good" as those guys in the lab who did just fine with that advisor/boss.  They don't know the reason they got that label.

 

Usually, even if a girl/woman does recognize it, there's no one to report it to and nothing that can be done about it except for her to leave the situation.  Just "being strong" doesn't work.  Once the guy sees a victim, he will go after her until she cracks.  And he will enjoy the whole process because he's getting to feel stronger and more important than someone else.  Everything she does to get him to stop, no matter how professionally she behaves, will only make it worse for her.

 

I'm not going to share any personal details, but I've been watching some of this unfold at work recently.

 

Those who may say it doesn't happen or it's really rare are either living in that parallel universe where one can't see it (because the perpetrators are good at hiding) or very lucky to be in a good environment.

 

[plansrme]

Not surprisingly, there is oodles of data published each year on the crop of new math Ph.D.s awarded in the U.S.  An interesting excerpt from the 2013-2014 report:

 

"The number of US citizens is 920 (48%), up slightly from 47% last year. Females accounted for 28% of the US citizen total (up from 27% last year). Non-US citizens receiving a PhD decreased to 52% from 53% last year. 11% (70) of the non-US citizens employed in the US have permanent visa status (down from 13% last year)."

 

I'm no math Ph.D., but I calculate that about 258 female U.S. citizens received math Ph.D.s that year, out of 920 that were awarded to U.S. citizens.  Women of all nationalities received 32% of the total number of Ph.D.s.  So, at least in math, there are plenty of women not dropping out.  Well, "plenty" comparatively.  Maybe 258 isn't really "plenty" in an absolute sense!  Also, I am sure that a substantial number of the non-U.S. citizens stay in the U.S.

 

 

[FaithManor]

There is a pastor in this area - pastor of a very conservative church - who still preaches, "The only reason to send a girl to college is to get her M.R.S. degree."

 

Ugh...those kind of people make my blood boil. Harkens back to that idea that women are property, the dad is looking to "sell", so he has to send her to where the "buyers" are.

[Nan in Mass]

I wonder how men are treated in the traditionally female jobs like nurses and nursery school teachers?

 

Nan

[hornblower]

I wonder how men are treated in the traditionally female jobs like nurses and nursery school teachers?

 

Nan

 

Well, there was a thread recently about a male nurse....  :leaving:

[regentrude]

I wonder how men are treated in the traditionally female jobs like nurses and nursery school teachers?

 

Male child care providers? Oh my... considered as creepy and suspected of being child molesters.

Being a female physicist is a piece of cake compared to that.

 

[Caroline]

Male child care providers? Oh my... considered as creepy and suspected of being child molesters.

Being a female physicist is a piece of cake compared to that.

 

I was thinking the same thing, except replace physicist with engineer.

[swimmermom3]

I just looked it up, and ALL of my children have gone/are going to fairly lopsided schools. Our local uni is very heavy on males (outdoor mecca), USNA and USAFA are obviously very heavily male, and second dd's master's is a bit skewed toward female. However, it's totally online, so doesn't really matter. Her career is VERY heavily male--it's not unusual for her to be the only female officer on board ship. It means she often gets a stateroom to herself!

 

Oldest dd's undergrad was male dominated, though it's evened out now, her two master's were at a heavily male school, but her doctorate is actually even! 

 

Middle dd is at a male-skewed school, and her master's will be too. 

 

Ds is at a VERY heavily male school--Mines. 

 

And youngest is at our local uni, which is skewed male. Most of the schools she is looking at are male dominated.

 

I have no idea why this is, maybe because I have a lot of engineering types. 

 

I find this whole topic fascinating.  Ds's choices range from coast to coast, with four LACs and four universities.  I assumed the 60/40 skew with more females was a national trend, but forgot that focus could really make a difference in the skew.

 

Do you know if those schools with a higher skew towards males have seen a change in the skew over the past decade?

 

 

[Matryoshka]

I have no idea why this is, maybe because I have a lot of engineering types.

I think that's exactly it. Virtually all the schools dd applied to skewed fairly heavily male. That's probably because she was looking at schools that were strong and computer science and engineering.

[regentrude]

Do you know if those schools with a higher skew towards males have seen a change in the skew over the past decade?

 

I am at one such school (77:23)

Over the past, the university administration has made great efforts to recruit more female students. The biggest boast in female enrollment came when the university expanded the biology program. Still, not a really significant change.

I can look for numbers later but have to run now.

 

[Matryoshka]

I am at one such school (77:23)

Over the past, the university administration has made great efforts to recruit more female students. The biggest boast in female enrollment came when the university expanded the biology program. Still, not a really significant change.

I can look for numbers later but have to run now.

 

Yeah, the individual departments (like CompSci and Engineering) are skewed even more heavily male/female than the university overall.

[Nan in Mass]

The two schools my family is involved with have seen some improvement since we have been involved with them, I think.

 

Nan

[Penelope]

I haven't really thought about this.

 

I will have my teens consider the statistics when making the decision.

 

When it comes to dating, it would be something to think about. But as far as marriage partners, what percentage of people today marry someone they began dating in college? My very uneducated guess is that it is low. I went to college a long time ago, and there was a lot of "dating," but not a lot of serious dating. I have no reason to think it is different now, and the age of marriage keeps going up. I know a few couples my age that met in college, but there are many more that did not meet until graduate school or while out of school and working.

[Granny_Weatherwax]

Where or how do you find department statistics?  I have been looking at DS's school and cannot find where it states male/female ratios by department or major.  Are you citing from your student's personal experience? What you observed during visits?

[Matryoshka]

Where or how do you find department statistics?  I have been looking at DS's school and cannot find where it states male/female ratios by department or major.  Are you citing from your student's personal experience? What you observed during visits?

 

I think it's just been more feel (when visiting, or going to events).  Like when you're excited to see a girl at all, you figure the ratio's pretty skewed...

[regentrude]

When it comes to dating, it would be something to think about. But as far as marriage partners, what percentage of people today marry someone they began dating in college? My very uneducated guess is that it is low. I went to college a long time ago, and there was a lot of "dating," but not a lot of serious dating. I have no reason to think it is different now, and the age of marriage keeps going up. I know a few couples my age that met in college, but there are many more that did not meet until graduate school or while out of school and working.

 

A quick google search found this:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/10/15/college-marriage-facebook/2989039/

 

 

A Facebook Data Sciences study released last week found that about 28% of married graduates attended the same college as their spouse. About 15% of individuals on Facebook attended the same high school as their spouse.

 

I met my DH first semester in college. We married six years later.

[regentrude]

Where or how do you find department statistics?  I have been looking at DS's school and cannot find where it states male/female ratios by department or major.  Are you citing from your student's personal experience? What you observed during visits?

 

I have a hard time imagining that the ratios within a given major vary dramatically from school to school.

 

[Arcadia]

Where or how do you find department statistics? I have been looking at DS's school and cannot find where it states male/female ratios by department or major. Are you citing from your student's personal experience? What you observed during visits?

There are stats out there.

E.g. UCB engineering overview stats states 26% of student body are females. There is a more detailed stat by year if you google.

http://engineering.berkeley.edu/about/facts-and-figures

 

ETA:

California State Universities

1972-2015 by gender and faculty/programs

http://www.calstate.edu/as/stat_reports/2015-2016/fmaj06.htm

Edited April 13, 2016 by Arcadia

[Nan in Mass]

Did anyone else notice that Ray in the new Star Wars is a walking advertisement for women pursuing STEM careers? And she even looks healthy rather than emaciated! I wish I,d had her as a role model growing up. I had no wish to be Princess Leia at all.

 

Nan

 

PS I know too many people who met their spouses in university for me not to wonder about the lopsidedness at my sons' colleges, but as I said earlier, it hasn,t seemed to make any difference.

[FaithManor]

I noticed that too, Nan. She actually looked healthy, and they didn't make Carrie Fischer have lipo suction, tummy tuck, eye lift, and the like for her role. I must remind myself not to get my hopes up. This could just represent an anomaly in the Hollywood universe.

[Granny_Weatherwax]

I found this link in regards to DS's major, neuroscience.

 

Then I found this.

 

DS is the minority in both of his majors, neuroscience and Japanese.  He is the only remaining male in this year's cohort of Japanese majors (the others dropped at semester) and there is only one other Freshman male on the neuroscience track.  I don't have overall departmental numbers but I don't think DS's cohort would be an anomaly.  His school is currently even with respect to male:female.

 

My DD is majoring in Bio-Psych (the precursor to Neuro) and every single person in her cohort is female. Her school is just over 50% female.

 

 

ETA:  I wonder what the neuro departments look like at larger unis. My two attend private LACs.  Creekland, what say you?

Edited April 13, 2016 by ScoutermominIL

[Ravin]

Male child care providers? Oh my... considered as creepy and suspected of being child molesters.

Being a female physicist is a piece of cake compared to that.

 

 

Not where people are sane. My DS's child care center has a male teacher in the Kindergarten Prep room (the one he's in). 

Edited April 13, 2016 by Ravin

[creekland]

I guess my middle son is doomed.  He's not only a Brain & Cognitive Science major (and Bio!), he also works with preschoolers and young elementary with his Linguistics research.  His minors of ASL and Psych probably don't assist him much either.  Yikes... then he's in a Dance Club... and he's not gay.

 

How about his planning to be a doctor?  Does he remove some of his creepy points by having that as a plan?   :lol:

 

We always told our guys it was ok to do pretty much whatever they wanted.  We eliminated pimps, illegal drug dealers, and terrorists, but that's all on our "I wouldn't be proud of you" list.

 

I believe there are other males in all of his pursuits, both as students and professors.  I have no idea what the percentages are.  His school is 50/50 - very nerd/geek loving.  He started being sold on the campus when he saw a sign in the dorm stating "We're not nerds.  We're academic bad___es."

 

[swimmermom3]

I haven't really thought about this.

 

I will have my teens consider the statistics when making the decision.

 

When it comes to dating, it would be something to think about. But as far as marriage partners, what percentage of people today marry someone they began dating in college? My very uneducated guess is that it is low. I went to college a long time ago, and there was a lot of "dating," but not a lot of serious dating. I have no reason to think it is different now, and the age of marriage keeps going up. I know a few couples my age that met in college, but there are many more that did not meet until graduate school or while out of school and working.

 

Dh and I met in college or rather we met at the restaurant we both worked at while in college. I probably wouldn't have dated him if he wasn't a student.  Most of our friends met at college as well.

 

My older two kids both have not gone on to school.  I think dating for them is way more difficult. Actually, casual dating is okay, but meeting someone with similar values and goals for a more lasting relationship seems to be harder.  Just our experience.

 

[FaithManor]

I will stay that I think that college is an easier place to find a mate due to the fact that a whole bunch of people in a fairly limited age range on average and at about the same place in life, for the most part, are congregated together in one place in an environment that encourages personal interaction, unlike many workplaces which do not encourage being particularly social, and where the stresses of the job may in fact make getting to know one another more difficult.

 

But then I know so many people who didn't meet in college too, so I guess it just hasn't been a concern of ours despite the fact that DH and I met while in college. The difference with us is that we weren't attending the same institution or residing in the same state at the time, LOL.

 

Amongst our acquaintances, we are the only couple that met in the college years. Everyone else was either before college, never went to college, or met after college. I think we must be the odd ducks in our group!

Edited April 15, 2016 by FaithManor

[creekland]

I found this link in regards to DS's major, neuroscience.

 

Then I found this.

 

DS is the minority in both of his majors, neuroscience and Japanese.  He is the only remaining male in this year's cohort of Japanese majors (the others dropped at semester) and there is only one other Freshman male on the neuroscience track.  I don't have overall departmental numbers but I don't think DS's cohort would be an anomaly.  His school is currently even with respect to male:female.

 

My DD is majoring in Bio-Psych (the precursor to Neuro) and every single person in her cohort is female. Her school is just over 50% female.

 

 

ETA:  I wonder what the neuro departments look like at larger unis. My two attend private LACs.  Creekland, what say you?

 

I just talked with middle son's GF last night.  She's now manager of a (the?) neuroscience lab at URoc, so I figured she ought to have decent insight for her circle.  She seemed stymied by the question, thought about it for a minute or two, and came to the conclusion that the major there is pretty darn close to 50/50, but she has no idea which side of close the actual stats would fall under.  I think that pretty much matches your first link.  No clue on the publishing part - except that she either is or will be published.  I didn't ask.  We see the two of them longer tonight (taking them out to a late dinner).  I might remember to ask her about the publishing then (no promises - once one gives their brain cells to their offspring memory just isn't the same.)

 

URoc definitely attracts those (male and female) who are in to all sorts of sciences and research.  Their own stats are pretty 50/50 overall.

 

If this relationship works out, we can all add them to our "met in college" list too, but it's way early to add them now.  You can add my oldest son.  He's married to a fellow college gal keeping the family tradition. :coolgleamA:  (Not only did we meet in college, my parents did too.  Hubby's parents did not, so the tradition is just my side.  My FIL didn't go to college.  MIL did.)

[SporkUK]

Here, there are many more paths to high paying jobs for males that dont require a 4 year degree. The male will apply, finish his 2 year degree, then get the job. If he wants to advance he will finish a 4 year degree while on the job.

 

Agree with the feminization of K12. Math and science have plenty of gals, but they all go into majors that are heavy on memorizing, light on thinking. Guys are not interested in the artsy hw projects, even if they have the supplies to do them in the home. That small difference means gals are always the top 10 students here in class rank, but 9 of the 10 will not have the SAT or Regents scores to support that class rank. We had a good laugh with my younger son, as the top ranking boys all are at colleges where the val and sal would flunk out...and the parents know it. No cooking projects or art assignments, and the tests arent rote memorization. The reading is also on grade level, rather than the below grade level garbage full inclusion brought in, and the gals' low actual level is reflected in the low sat scores.the guys are much more accomplished in high school..either varsity athlete or job or both while self studying for AP exams in science (school doesnt offer that level).

 

Multiple studies have given strong evidence that SATs overestimate boy abilities and college readiness [and the english section has been repeatedly changed when girls overtook boys to be 'more balanced' - which has never been done for girls] while grossly underestimating girls abilities and college readiness. 

 

I worked at a University for years and there were plenty of men wanting a 'coast course' or a 'coast professor', though I noticed them more when I was a student in humanities courses than in my work because so many view humanities as easy. It was amusing when reading end of course reviews that we had far more women asking for tougher material/things not to be dumbed down and men saying the opposite. Women were more likely to do additional research courses in my area. Our arts programmes had tons of men. But I won't claim that university was universal - but it was popular with lower ranking local high schools that have fewer course options. 

 

The reason people go into different courses is complex, the way people look at different courses the same - but gender plays a massive role. The more women go into a subject, the easier the topic is viewed by the public has a lot of evidence behind it. Teaching was previously better looked at and is better looked at in countries where more men teach, biology and psychology have become 'soft' subjects as more women got into it, trust and the view of professionalism of real estate agents dropped pretty much in line with women entering, the difficulty of different types of engineering as viewed by the public and students is pretty much in relation to how many women have entered and so on. The most obvious - medicine. It would be easy to think doctors are a universally held in high regard with a lot of pay, but in Russia where far more women have become doctors which undergo the same training as in the West, it's viewed as a blue collar job with less than 5 figure salaries; in the UK as more women enter medicine, the terms have been tightened, areas of medicine with more women are looked down upon and get lower salaries, and junior doctors - with more women in them - are being targeted more.

 

With the latest research, my main concern about a lop-sided university or course with more women is that employers will more likely look down upon those courses are easier compared to the same course in a different university with more men - because that already happens. The view that women enter easier courses has little research to back it up - that courses are viewed as easier because women enter them has a mountain of evidence and something that needs to be challenged. The reality isn't pretty - and having a good laugh at it won't change anything - as this research also shows that even with lower entrance and lower general results by young men, particularly young White men, they will still get better jobs and salaries because of the systemic bias that subjects and universities with more of them are better/harder/more worthy of esteem. 

Edited April 15, 2016 by SporkUK